Homosexuals in the Orthodox Jewish Community

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    Jan 13, 2012 5:27 PM GMT
    Great read, with points that I believe apply to Christianity as well:

    Homosexuals in the Orthodox Community -by Rabbi Zev Farber
    http://morethodoxy.org/2012/01/11/homosexuals-in-the-orthodox-community-by-rabbi-zev-farber/

    Rabbi Zev Farber was ordained (yoreh yoreh and yadin yadin) by YCT Rabbinical School. He is the founder of AITZIM (Atlanta Institute of Torah and Zionism) – an adult education initiative. Rabbi Farber serves on the board of the International Rabbinic Fellowship (IRF) and is the coordinator of their Vaad Giyyur. He is also a PhD candidate at Emory University’s Graduate Division of Religion
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    Jan 13, 2012 5:33 PM GMT
    before I read this:

    Nothing quite so surprising as getting cruised by a Hasidic Jewish guy in a
    Korean jimjilbang (read: not a gay bathhouse).

    And he was the real deal with the long curly sideburns: I never would have imagined that someone could remain within Hasidic Othodoxy comfortably and be gay.
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    Jan 13, 2012 6:53 PM GMT
    AlphaTrigger saidbefore I read this:

    Nothing quite so surprising as getting cruised by a Hasidic Jewish guy in a
    Korean jimjilbang (read: not a gay bathhouse).

    And he was the real deal with the long curly sideburns: I never would have imagined that someone could remain within Hasidic Othodoxy comfortably and be gay.

    I had one hit on me in the most awkward way once on the subway. I was thankfully able to just steer the conversation into a friendly talk about the MTA. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Jan 13, 2012 11:16 PM GMT
    Bump... (For the PM crowd.)
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    Jan 14, 2012 12:18 AM GMT
    JustThisOnce saidBTw guys, do not read the comment section....its harsh

    Harsh? I actually found it quite civil, including the commenter by the pseudonym of Pinchas.
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    Jan 14, 2012 12:37 AM GMT
    Jews are always funny.
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    Jan 14, 2012 5:54 AM GMT
    Leave it to a rabbi to find a loophole in Torah.

    There is no reason on God's good Earth why gay people should accept being treated as anything less than 100% human being. That this so-called rabbi is willing to offer an olive branch by showing acceptance for gay love, but not for bisexual love and not for marriage for gay people might do well to relieve his conscience and might do a little to reduce abuses upon us, but it does nothing to relieve the guilt of religion for their participation in causing our suffering.

    It would be like Moses having opened up a travel agency in Egypt, but having never lead the tour towards the promised land.

    Fuck Leviticus.
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    Jan 14, 2012 8:03 AM GMT
    JustThisOnce saidActually very interesting that all Abraham-ic Religion have such similarity. I feel Jewish rabbis are the most progressive out of the three hands down. The idea of complete celibacy is just not an option as it derives someone of not only sexual needs but also emotional need that you get from a partner.


    The catholic church was to put in place the priesthood could not take a wife and have children to prevent the children from making a claim on church assets, thus any children born of Popes, and there has been a few, and priests, will be deemed illegitimate thus no right to claim inheritance, on chuch assets.
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    Jan 14, 2012 12:36 PM GMT
    TrueBlueAussie said
    JustThisOnce saidActually very interesting that all Abraham-ic Religion have such similarity. I feel Jewish rabbis are the most progressive out of the three hands down. The idea of complete celibacy is just not an option as it derives someone of not only sexual needs but also emotional need that you get from a partner.


    The catholic church was to put in place the priesthood could not take a wife and have children to prevent the children from making a claim on church assets, thus any children born of Popes, and there has been a few, and priests, will be deemed illegitimate thus no right to claim inheritance, on chuch assets.


    Just so everybody knows. This hidden poster is waimea.

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    Jan 14, 2012 12:58 PM GMT
    theantijock saidLeave it to a rabbi to find a loophole in Torah.

    There is no reason on God's good Earth why gay people should accept being treated as anything less than 100% human being. That this so-called rabbi is willing to offer an olive branch by showing acceptance for gay love, but not for bisexual love and not for marriage for gay people might do well to relieve his conscience and might do a little to reduce abuses upon us, but it does nothing to relieve the guilt of religion for their participation in causing our suffering.

    It would be like Moses having opened up a travel agency in Egypt, but having never lead the tour towards the promised land.

    Fuck Leviticus.

    I noticed his exclusion of bisexuals. As an agnostic (probably atheist) gentile, I find the debate itself fascinating--even the comment section. It is one of the reasons why I see judaism as one of the less harmful religions out there; they seem in general less dogmatic than at least the other Abrahamic religions.
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    Jan 14, 2012 3:54 PM GMT
    19c79 said
    theantijock saidLeave it to a rabbi to find a loophole in Torah.

    There is no reason on God's good Earth why gay people should accept being treated as anything less than 100% human being. That this so-called rabbi is willing to offer an olive branch by showing acceptance for gay love, but not for bisexual love and not for marriage for gay people might do well to relieve his conscience and might do a little to reduce abuses upon us, but it does nothing to relieve the guilt of religion for their participation in causing our suffering.

    It would be like Moses having opened up a travel agency in Egypt, but having never lead the tour towards the promised land.

    Fuck Leviticus.

    I noticed his exclusion of bisexuals. As an agnostic (probably atheist) gentile, I find the debate itself fascinating--even the comment section. It is one of the reasons why I see judaism as one of the less harmful religions out there; they seem in general less dogmatic than at least the other Abrahamic religions.


    He is clearly an enlightened Rabbi but Jews have their harmful zelots just as other religions do. As for the exclusion of bisexual love, a bisexual love is either with a member of the same sex or the opposite sex. So a bisexual who loves the same sex would be treated equally with a homosexual. Only if it is polyamorous is it a bisexual love and no, I don't expect any religious leader to address that.

    Distinguishing "religion offense" from "moral offense" is a discussion I never hear in Christianity. When he states that it is akin to eating shrimp, he is giving homosexuals the same respect afforded to all people who do not follow the religion doctrine. Next he makes an argument for why homosexuals who want to be Orthodox can be exempted from this religious offense. This may sound preachy to us non-believers but he is not reaching out to us. He is speaking for the gay orthodox jew who wants complete acceptance within his community.

    After reading the entire essay I feel he has accepted homosexuals as 100% human and has offered guidance to other Rabies for who to allow them to be a complete part of their religious community and even encourage their relationships. This means nothing to those of us who do not follow the faith but it is enormous to the homosexuals who do. It would be convenient to homosexuals if all religious people would give up their faith just as it would be convenient to religious people if all homosexuals remained forever celibate. The fact of the matter is, both are impossible. I do not see this Rabbi as extending an olive branch but rather as creating harmony within his community over a subject that is divisive in so many other religious communities. Since religion will always be a part of every society on this planet, I feel my only choice is to applaud his efforts.

    I feel fortunate that I was raised in an atheist/agnostic household. It would be easy for me to belittle this Rabbi's efforts as well as those of any other enlightened spiritual leader. But then I would be just as guilty as the righteous religious folks who feel they stand on a higher ground than I.




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    Jan 14, 2012 5:34 PM GMT
    friendormate said
    As for the exclusion of bisexual love, a bisexual love is either with a member of the same sex or the opposite sex. So a bisexual who loves the same sex would be treated equally with a homosexual. Only if it is polyamorous is it a bisexual love and no, I don't expect any religious leader to address that.


    Yours is an incorrect read of the rabbi who clearly states that his principal of "Oness Rahmana Patrei" does not apply to practicing bisexuals, not even to bisexuals practicing homosexuality, and that bisexuality would not be "halakhically permitted" because he says that "the concept of oness does not cover people with a more fluid sexuality; those who are capable of forming a satisfying intimate bond with members of the opposite sex and choose to do so with a member of their own sex cannot reasonably be called “compelled.”

    His expectation is that bisexuals should adhere to Torah by conforming to heterosexuality instead of issuing them a get out of jail free card. The good rabbi thinks it is okay to insist that in order for them to remain holy human, they must deny themselves their sexual orientation as he doesn't find them "compelled" to have a dual orientation, which is just more bulllshit.

    This backhanded commentary further denounced homosexuality by decreeing it the sexuality of last resorts. Suck dick only if eating pussy makes you vomit. Bullshit.

    friendormate saidAfter reading the entire essay I feel he has accepted homosexuals as 100% human


    That's just more apologistic horseshit. 100% humans are allowed to marry, just like all the other 100% humans. But instead, the rabbi says that "adopting the oness principle does not mean that halakha recognizes same sex qiddushin (Jewish marriage) – it does not."


    19c79 saidI noticed his exclusion of bisexuals. As an agnostic (probably atheist) gentile, I find the debate itself fascinating--even the comment section. It is one of the reasons why I see judaism as one of the less harmful religions out there; they seem in general less dogmatic than at least the other Abrahamic religions.


    The rabbi's exclusion is similar to [flamewar] how so many in the gay community, particularly as read on this forum, insist that bisexuals be monogamous with only one sex.
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    Jan 15, 2012 12:59 AM GMT
    DEKIRUMAN said
    TrueBlueAussie said
    JustThisOnce saidActually very interesting that all Abraham-ic Religion have such similarity. I feel Jewish rabbis are the most progressive out of the three hands down. The idea of complete celibacy is just not an option as it derives someone of not only sexual needs but also emotional need that you get from a partner.


    The catholic church was to put in place the priesthood could not take a wife and have children to prevent the children from making a claim on church assets, thus any children born of Popes, and there has been a few, and priests, will be deemed illegitimate thus no right to claim inheritance, on chuch assets.


    Just so everybody knows. This hidden poster is waimea.



    Just so everyone knows, he is delusional, no it's me, and I am not he!icon_surprised.gif