Dumbbell Deltoid Lateral Raises -- Straight versus Bent

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    Jul 28, 2007 1:41 AM GMT
    What is difference between the benefits of doing dumbbell deltoid lateral raises with straight arms and doing them with bent arms? Is one more intense than the other? Does one work more muscle groups than the other?
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    Jul 28, 2007 3:19 AM GMT
    Striaght arms creates a longer moving lever, so the torque is greter, thus more difficult and requires more energy to perform.

    Do not recommend lateral raises if your arm is internnally rotated, or the elbows higher than the hands. This is an orthopedic test called "Emoty Can" and it twists and stretched the suparspinatus rotator cuff muscle, while making id contract and alos runs right under the bony acrominon.

    Scaption is more recommended. This is just lateral raises but with the elbows lower than hands and the arms moving slightly in front of the trunk.

    Scaption does not fire the medial deltoids as much as with internally rotated humerus, but it is a lot safer for your shoulder joint in the long run.
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    Jul 28, 2007 8:44 AM GMT
    nyc can we have this in english
    not all of us know everybody part by name
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    Jul 28, 2007 3:55 PM GMT
    This is the best I can do... Besides the supraspinatus and acrominon, the only other body parts I mentioned are the elbow and hands, which anyone speaking English should comprehend as these wer everyday common language...

    I also did not explain what supraspinatus and acromion are BECAUSE I have already done this many, many times in my other posts...

    Otherwise, it is better to demonstrate this in person or with a anatomy plastic model of the shoulder... IN any case, if one has trouble understanding the explanation part of the post, one can always just read the final recommendation: Straight arm is harder than bend harm, but lateral raises, done in the traditional manner of having your elbows higher than your hands are not great for your shoudler joints.

    I always provid a logical explanation for what I post, and in order to do that in a precise manner, I have to use precise language, and the only way to do that is with referrences to anatomical parts...You will see this with any sound and adequate explanations... IF I do not do this,you might as well read Men's Health or some other popular magazines, many of which give you either an answer that is too vague, without precise explanations, or simply incorrect explanation...
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    Jul 28, 2007 4:05 PM GMT
    I also recommend ALL serious atheltes to read up and have the basic understanding of anatomy and biomechanics. It will help you become much better athletes if you have a deeper scope of understanding of what you are doing to your own body. Furthermore, with this basic understanding of anatomy and biomechanics, when reading about athletic performance, if the articles are using poor and unprecise language, you probalby should take the information with a grain of salt... I understand that I am not talking to one of my interns but thebody parts I have referrenced to is actually rather basic...
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    Jul 28, 2007 4:35 PM GMT
    my trainer surprising told be straight arm.
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    Jul 28, 2007 4:49 PM GMT
    You would just not able to do as much weight as bend arm.... The further away the weights are from the center of your trunk, the "heavier" it is...
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    Jul 28, 2007 4:56 PM GMT
    Hey NYC,

    I think the guy that asked you to use plain english was looking for an answer like this:

    Straight raises put more strain on your shoulders because they are more difficult and require you to use more of your muscles. If you aren't a serious lifter or comfortable in the gym, you probably shouldn't do these to start out because you may injure yourself.

    Bent lateral raises are good because you can start out on a machine with them to get the motion down to a science, then graduate to free weights, then straight raises.

    One key thing to remember about shoulders however is that they are prone to easy and quick injury if your form is poor or you think you are stronger than you are. Trust me, the scream from someone snapping their rotator cuff is NASTY.

    So from someone who is not as much of an expert as NYC - who is quite helpful if you have questions - start with the bent and build your strength first then move up.

    But I could be flawed.
    KP
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    Jul 28, 2007 5:01 PM GMT
    Yes, NYCmuscle, your posts are very precise and explicit, but sometimes the descriptions are hard to follow -- and yes a diagram or model would make it much easier. I have to admit that anytime someone gives explanations like yours, and not you specifically but anyone of this site, I find it hard to follow if I don't have a diagram, and I know the words and the antaomy that you are talking about.

    Also if you looked at thorn27's profile you would notice that he does not live in the US, but rather the Netherlands, and I would hazard a guess that English is not his first language. And while someone may have a good command of he language it may still be hard for them to follow a detailed explanation, which uses technical and site specific words, like the one you gave.
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    Jul 28, 2007 5:11 PM GMT
    Yes, that is why I posted later to look at the final recommendation and skip the explanation if the explanation is difficult to comprehend. But I do not think I should just not provid the explanation for those members who can get more out them...

    And, as far as the explanation (not the final recommendation), there is no way to really give an adequate explanation by using a 2 dimensional illustration. There is a reason many interns never got the shoulder right until after a lengthy demonstration with a 3 D model and countless surgical observations... The shoulder is a very interesting joint as the shoulder blade IS and forms the shoulder socket, and this shoulder blade is only attached to the collar bone, and it has a convoluted bony tunnel built within the shoulder blae structure where muscles takes a winding and twisting course and threads through this tunnel.. It is a lot more complex than most peopel think. And I simply cannot do a whole course of shoulder anatomy here...

    But then again, I do not wish to give readers the kind of information you would get from a magazine like Mens Health...

    I will try to improve with my post, but I still recommend getting an anatomy book and possible observe a 3 D model of any joint structure when referring to my posts... Otherwise, why bother reading anything more detialed if one is seeking the same type and level of information you can get from a popular work out magazine...?
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    Jul 28, 2007 5:17 PM GMT
    Oh another final recomendation, this time with a more basic explanation..

    Lateral raise machiens are not any safer than free weights. This is because you can easily perform abnormal movements in the shoulder that is not easily seen when a machine is guiding your movement...

    For example, you can use a lot of the wron g muscles such as your upper trapezius to hike your shoulders before raising them to the sides, and with a machyine, you cannot so eaily see this... With free weights, one can immediately see that you are hiking your shouders up to your ears before you rasie the weigths to the sides... Hiking the shouders before raising to the sides will cause the interanl cuff muscles to load incorrectly and rub under bony structures: impingement...
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    Jul 28, 2007 5:23 PM GMT
    And actually, partial and complete tears of cuff muscles usually are not painful, but just feels like a mild snap or twinge...

    What most people scream with pain when doing the wrong shoudler movements is due to the snapping and rubbing of muscles by the bone (the cuff muscles rubbing by the boney tunnel/arch of the shoulder blade/shoulder socket complex)...

    And shoulder injuries can be traumatic and acute, but a lot of time, like the most commo impingement syndrome, takes YEARS to develope...

    I already mentioned this in another thread... If you ever observe a shoulder athroscopic surgery, youwould see that someone who has minimal symptoms, but once you go in the shoudler with a camera, what you see is not clean muslce and fluid, but a something that more resembles a sea of wet toilet paper..., and all that mess is old scar and inflamatory junk! You may not have pain, but if you do your shoulder exercises incorretly, you are still damaging your shoulder...
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    Jul 28, 2007 5:35 PM GMT
    Here is what I recommend for anatomy reference. This is THE standard text used in all health care schools..

    Wrerick, since you are a physician, this should bring back sweet memories!

    Atlas of Human Anatomy by Netter.

    It has good illustrations (no, real cadevers do not look exaclty like this, but the illustraions are much easier to comprehend) but it does not explain the functions of each structure... But this is a good referrence to have...
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    Jul 28, 2007 5:43 PM GMT

    NYCmuscle, I actually like the descriptions and terminology. It's great review for us health services students. Just FYI, thanks.

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    Jul 28, 2007 5:48 PM GMT
    Thanks!!!
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    Jul 28, 2007 5:53 PM GMT
    thanks nyc
    didn,t mean to hassle you
    my english is fairly decent
    but as you said my anatomical knoledge in english is,nt up to scratch
    that said with your further expanation and that of others i now do understand your answer

    eric
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    Jul 28, 2007 6:03 PM GMT
    Oh yes, good old Netter, still smells faintly of the anatomy lab.
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    Jul 28, 2007 6:08 PM GMT
    Oh not a problem. As you can see, you are not alone in pointing out that my posts are sometimes hard to understand, and this applies to my other posts in the areas of work out/injury/anatomy...

    I just think this is a good place to post threads that are more detailed and accurate than what one will see in popular work out magazines... Like many "LifeStyle" magainzes, which publishes so many garbage on trendy and whacko diets, popular work out magainzes also tend to do many of the same things. Many of the exercises and demonstrations of them in these magazines just make me cringe... Then you read the explanations, and its mostly garbage as well (well, of course, not all the time.)
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    Jul 28, 2007 6:18 PM GMT
    nyc granted
    would it be an idea for you to not only mention the medical/biological term , but the regular one as well
    this so the rest of us without the years of med school can more easily understand what your describing

    eric
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    Jul 28, 2007 11:16 PM GMT
    Will take taht into consideration and do my best :)