"I Hate the Flamers"

  • Dbrad3693

    Posts: 227

    Feb 08, 2012 1:00 AM GMT
    This was a quote from a good friend of mine. I have been thinking about it all day and am interested in your input.
    Story: So a masc gay friend of mine was being harrassed and bullied basiclly for being gay. The boys that were doing it were apparently mocking gay lisps, and acting feminate in order to make fun of his sexual orientation. Of course my buddy doesnt take a lot of shit from anyone and told them off. But it obviously effected him because he contacted me a little upset (as you can imagine). Anyway during his conversation he contiuned to go on how he is tried of people assuming that all gay men are "flammers" as he put it.

    "You know, there are more masc gays then fucking flamers, but people dont realize it. Im sure half of them fake their high pitch voices anyway" (his words).
    He later calmed down and chilled after i talked to him a little more.

    But this event and a thread from another real jock member got me thinking.
    I had a similar experience. When i "came out of the closet", many of my friends were shocked because gay guys didnt play football. When i asked what gays did one of my str8 buddies said "Well you know, like fashion and stuff" That statement did make me laugh but then later fustrated me.
    Do you masc gays ever get fustrated being compared to lets say a flamer gay? have any experiences? Have you ever shared my friends fustration torward more fem gay men?
    Im interested to know.
    (P.S. Im not a flamer hater, and if you comment something on this thread like "your friend is a prick, i hope he dies", or "i hope bad things happen to you because you are a flamer hater, and discriminate" i will do everything in my power to delete you from my thread. That shit happens all the time on RJ but i will be damned if it happens on my thread)
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    Feb 08, 2012 1:05 AM GMT
    People look at me funny all the time because I'm an abnormality in the gay world. I work at a gay bar and I don't know the words to any Cher songs, I've never done drag, and I normally wear a metal band shirt and athletic shorts. People assume that, because I'm gay, I'm gonna queen out over Britney and Gaga. It gets really tiring being told to "get into it" when I just can't relate (unless it's a metal cover of Britney or Gaga - some of those are fucking SICK)
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    Feb 08, 2012 1:09 AM GMT
    No, it doesn't bother me being compared to guys who society use as a stereotype.

    Infact people use that "stereotype" simply to be insulting, it's the persons own ignorance towards the differences that make up society not just a select few.

    Remember that tv show, will and grace, well Jack was what most consider the stereotype to be.

    It's the same that all black guys are thugs.

    And it's people in the gay community who take offense to these insults that always assume me. if that's not you, why get so cut up about it?
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    Feb 08, 2012 1:12 AM GMT
    Dbrad3693 saidThis was a quote from a good friend of mine. I have been thinking about it all day and am interested in your input.
    Story: So a masc gay friend of mine was being harrassed and bullied basiclly for being gay. The boys that were doing it were apparently mocking gay lisps, and acting feminate in order to make fun of his sexual orientation. Of course my buddy doesnt take a lot of shit from anyone and told them off. But it obviously effected him because he contacted me a little upset (as you can imagine). Anyway during his conversation he contiuned to go on how he is tried of people assuming that all gay men are "flammers" as he put it.

    "You know, there are more masc gays then fucking flamers, but people dont realize it. Im sure half of them fake their high pitch voices anyway" (his words).
    He later calmed down and chilled after i talked to him a little more.

    But this event and a thread from another real jock member got me thinking.
    I had a similar experience. When i "came out of the closet", many of my friends were shocked because gay guys didnt play football. When i asked what gays did one of my str8 buddies said "Well you know, like fashion and stuff" That statement did make me laugh but then later fustrated me.
    Do you masc gays ever get fustrated being compared to lets say a flamer gay? have any experiences? Have you ever shared my friends fustration torward more fem gay men?
    Im interested to know.
    (P.S. Im not a flamer hater, and if you comment something on this thread like "your friend is a prick, i hope he dies", or "i hope bad things happen to you because you are a flamer hater, and discriminate" i will do everything in my power to delete you from my thread. That shit happens all the time on RJ but i will be damned if it happens on my thread)

    Ah, to be 18.
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    Feb 08, 2012 2:19 AM GMT
    I get more aggravated at the ignorant thought that gay = fashion, top 40, lisps, etc....

    Some person: "you're gay? How come you don't (stereotype)"

    Me:.............(sigh) seriously?

    There are even some gay guys that still think gay = (stereotype). You know what I'm talking about

    Some gay guy: "oh mah gawd, you dont like (some top 40 princess or Cher/Madonna/some diva) give me your gay card.

    Me:............(sigh) uuuuugggGGGGHHHHHH FAK!icon_mad.gif

  • BuckeyeJock13

    Posts: 44

    Feb 08, 2012 2:46 AM GMT
    It's really just this simple. Be yourself. No matter how society would view it you will not be happy if you are trying to be something you are not. If that's viewed as being more masculine or more feminine who cares. It's who you are so embrace it.
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    Feb 08, 2012 2:48 AM GMT
    Claystation saidI get more aggravated at the ignorant thought that gay = fashion, top 40, lisps, etc....

    Some person: "you're gay? How come you don't (stereotype)"

    Me:.............(sigh) seriously?

    There are even some gay guys that still think gay = (stereotype). You know what I'm talking about

    Some gay guy: "oh mah gawd, you dont like (some top 40 princess or Cher/Madonna/some diva) give me your gay card.

    Me:............(sigh) uuuuugggGGGGHHHHHH FAK!icon_mad.gif



    I was told I was a horrible gay the other day when a girl was looking through my iPod and couldn't find any lady gaga. She said, "I really had the urge to hear her, that's why I came in your office..."

    I said "get out and put Miranda Lambert back on."
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    Feb 08, 2012 2:50 AM GMT
    Firebrand saidPeople look at me funny all the time because I'm an abnormality in the gay world. I work at a gay bar and I don't know the words to any Cher songs, I've never done drag, and I normally wear a metal band shirt and athletic shorts. People assume that, because I'm gay, I'm gonna queen out over Britney and Gaga. It gets really tiring being told to "get into it" when I just can't relate (unless it's a metal cover of Britney or Gaga - some of those are fucking SICK)


    That's NOT why people look at you funny.

    Although you ARE and abnormality on many levels.

    The taste for Metal is not as terminally unique as you like to think it is btw.
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    Feb 08, 2012 2:53 AM GMT
    Claystation saidI get more aggravated at the ignorant thought that gay = fashion, top 40, lisps, etc....

    Some person: "you're gay? How come you don't (stereotype)"

    Me:.............(sigh) seriously?

    There are even some gay guys that still think gay = (stereotype). You know what I'm talking about

    Some gay guy: "oh mah gawd, you dont like (some top 40 princess or Cher/Madonna/some diva) give me your gay card.

    Me:............(sigh) uuuuugggGGGGHHHHHH FAK!icon_mad.gif


    Go home, watch porn, beat off and make sure to send me the link to the video of said activity when you post it to Xtube.

    That should make it ALL better.
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    Feb 08, 2012 2:55 AM GMT
    Haaretz said

    Go home, watch porn, beat off and make sure to send me the link to the video of said activity when you post it to Xtube.

    That should make it ALL better.


    Finally a solution!

    Imma go and do it right now icon_biggrin.gif
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    Feb 08, 2012 2:57 AM GMT
    Claystation said
    Haaretz said

    Go home, watch porn, beat off and make sure to send me the link to the video of said activity when you post it to Xtube.

    That should make it ALL better.


    Finally a solution!

    Imma go and do it right now icon_biggrin.gif


    It all seems so obvious now!!!

    How could we have missed it???
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    Feb 08, 2012 3:01 AM GMT
    basically its alot of hate directed in the wrong place. The correct target for it is actually the media and entertainment industries. Have you ever noticed that you rarely see anything but the stereotype (or close to it) of the fashionable, feminine gay male portrayed in the media? The media are what drive stereotypes in the 21st century. They hold the largest captive audience in the country and could easily break down those walls but for some reason they don't. Even the "gay" networks are terrible at this. Most of the stuff on there is rubbish (although i will admit, Ru Paul's drag race is f*cking hysterical).

    Basically, if its not on television or where the mainstream viewership can witness it, people assume it doesn't exist. Example, girls who work on cars are no longer stereotypically limited to the "butch lez". We have movies like Fast & The Furious to thank for that. Once we get mainstream exposure for example on a, dare i say it, REALITY SHOW *shudders* its going to start changing but until then we just have to do our best to educate the few people we can.
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    Feb 08, 2012 3:03 AM GMT
    Cash said

    That's NOT why people look at you funny.

    Although you ARE and abnormality on many levels.

    The taste for Metal is not as terminally unique as you like to think it is btw.


    Do you practice being obnoxious, or does it just come naturally?
  • nomadfornow

    Posts: 1069

    Feb 08, 2012 3:03 AM GMT
    "It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile.
    Be yourself, no matter what they say."

    -- Sting, in an homage to Quentin Crisp
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    Feb 08, 2012 3:14 AM GMT
    gaytroll.png
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    Feb 08, 2012 3:22 AM GMT
    Meh, welcome to a minority.
  • C_Dezi

    Posts: 134

    Feb 08, 2012 3:25 AM GMT
    i've always been open and maintained a sense of humor about my sexuality. i don't portray many aspects of the stereotypical gay man, but have always taken side-swipe jokes about being gay. the better i react to people, the more they are willing to see that i am who i am and we are not all alike, just like all human all beings are not alike. many straight men have and portray feminine qualities without being insecure about it, and there are also circles in the world where being able to get in touch with your feminine side is actually something to strive for. we all have the duality in us and at different times we can use both to our advantage. if you take to heart what people say to you(the group YOU), you will not only give that person more power and confidence in their convictions
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    Feb 08, 2012 3:40 AM GMT
    I don't get frustrated by it. Stereotypes are great tools, regardless of what politically correct people try to tell you. More than that, they are useful heuristics to make fairly reliable and speedy evaluations from limited information. Stereotypes change as experiences change. If 100% of gays I meet are flamers, it doens't matter if that only makes up 1% of all gays, what matters is that in my world, there is obviously good reason to expect that the next gay I meet will be a flamer because for whatever reason I only seem to meet gays from that 1% of the total gay population, therefore, if I met a gay, he's likely part of that flamer population too.

    With that said, I also agree with your friend about a good number of them not 'really' being flamers. I've witnessed people become flamers for two reasons, (this doesn't include flamers who are just innately that way). One is that if you hang out with flamers, you just learn their behaviors. This is true of all people. You pick up the habits of people you hang out with, especially when you're younger. Another reason is just to fit in. When straight society is largely dumb about gays and therefore rejects them, psychologically weaker gays will try to find a different group to belong to if they want to be out (and those who are even weaker might macho up and run deeper into the closet). Just like everyone does, they will proceed to adopt the behaviors that are common to their group. This is the only thing I find a bit frustrating. I wish more of us could stand on our own. But of course I also understand that this would be holding gays to a higher standard, since standing on your own like that is both hard and against our social nature, so it's not just gays who do that, but pretty much everyone.

    As a gay youth growing up I will say that flamer gays affected me in a negative way. Not that I had bad experiences but that I felt that as a gay guy I didn't fit in with other gay guys. Although I was out, I didn't make any gay friends until fairly late in my life, and I met most of them through sports. It still takes considerable effort to find gay guys I understand how to interact with, as opposed to straight people. This did make me disappointed and I blamed them when I was younger for being what I saw as 'conformation of weak individuals with a stereotype' but in the end I decided that maybe I was too harsh and they were just victims of their situations. After all, most non-gay people don't have to deal with rejection from the general society on a daily basis. Still, they ARE my people in a way, so I can't help but hold them to a higher standard than average.

    I think as acceptance grows, I notice less and less gay people be flamers. This is a sign that more and more of them feel comfortable to consider themselves part of the general society first, and gay second, rather than identifying as gay first, and part of the general society second, if at all. They begin to adopt the behaviors and social interactions of the general society as a result of reconsidering where their primary social membership lies.

    And I just want to add, it is extremely naive to think that you can or even SHOULD get rid of stereotypes. These are genetically encoded heuristics that in the vast majority of cases allow you to make GOOD, QUICK decisions, even if they fail some small percentage of the time. You're just better off accepting that people will sometimes make errors in judgement, and that this will be more likely ot be true when their experience of the population for which they are trying to make conclusions is limited to a biased sample. The best thing to do against that is to expose them to a more representative sample somehow, although that can be tricky as well.
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    Feb 08, 2012 3:46 AM GMT
    SkittleGangsta said
    Cash said

    That's NOT why people look at you funny.

    Although you ARE and abnormality on many levels.

    The taste for Metal is not as terminally unique as you like to think it is btw.


    Do you practice being obnoxious, or does it just come naturally?


    Firebrand/frosty/fearthefall and I occassionally exchange digs.

    I doubt they have any effect on him.

    Feel free to overlook them if they upset you.

    And it is a combination of carefully studied technique and natural gifts.

    What's it to ya?
  • vintovka

    Posts: 588

    Feb 08, 2012 3:55 AM GMT
    This is a basic model of prejudice:

    1. A dominant group confines a minority with a combination of formal and informal institutions

    2, the identity of the minority is established on the basis of that confinement

    3. the identity is used to justify the oppression, as everyone blames the minority for producing the identity, rather than the dominant culture that produced that isolation/identity

    4. the minority group turns on members of its own group who seem to be manifesting that identity

    That's how Karl Marx (the descendant of Rabis on both sides of his family) ended up writing "On the Jewish Question" which equated Judaism with money lending, or Bill Cosby blames the African American community for stereotypes that are the product of ghettos created by public policies. Blaming "flamers" for homophobia is unfair and counterproductive. The real issue is, Why, in a society where we are supposed to enjoy so much personal freedom, is it anyone's godamned business if someone wants to wear sparkles and high heals? I'm in the category of gay men who get overlooked because I don't fit the stereotype, but I don't blame the people who do fit it, I blame the narrow mindedness of our society.
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    Feb 08, 2012 4:15 AM GMT
    Soccerstud4 saidgaytroll.png
    Really? You couldn't find the gif?
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    Feb 08, 2012 4:18 AM GMT
    Firebrand saidPeople look at me funny all the time because I'm an abnormality in the gay world. I work at a gay bar and I don't know the words to any Cher songs, I've never done drag, and I normally wear a metal band shirt and athletic shorts. People assume that, because I'm gay, I'm gonna queen out over Britney and Gaga. It gets really tiring being told to "get into it" when I just can't relate (unless it's a metal cover of Britney or Gaga - some of those are fucking SICK)


    This turns me on about you >)
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    Feb 08, 2012 4:22 AM GMT
    I think it's possible to be a balance of both.

    I don't think I have a lisp, but I heard myself recorded the other day and thought I sounded really gay. Others didn't hear it or were being nice about it.

    However, I am working out in the gym.

    I do like fashion - Project Runway. I love theater - DVR Glee.

    However, I don't like Barbara Streisand, Cher, and other gay icons.

    I am not a big sports person - mostly because of negative experiences in my childhood, but I'm starting to learn to be more interested now that my life is changing.

    I love cheesy 80's music, but I also enjoy a good rock song.

    I think that everyone comes with a variety of experiences and perspectives.

    Just thought I would throw that out there.
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    Feb 08, 2012 4:28 AM GMT
    I love fashion, I love to cook, I love home decoration and renovation and I love shopping and dancing. I am gay and fabulous.
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    Feb 08, 2012 4:32 AM GMT
    Honey, you just tell that bitch that the only way people will realize that there are copious amounts of masculine gay men is if they stop believing that their sexuality and relationships are ~nobody's business~.
    Heterosexuals talk about their relationships or kids or whatever all the fucking time. If you talk about "my boyfriend" or "my exboyfriend" just like any heterosexual guy would say "my girlfriend" or "my exgirlfriend", it will help to show people that it's not weird or taboo to talk about it.
    Unless you are one of us "flamers", almost all heterosexuals will assume that you are heterosexual too unless you make a point of indirectly discussing your sexuality whenever appropriate... which is basically any time people are talking about their own relationships.

    Example:
    Masculine Gay: Hey man what's up?
    Heterosexual Guy: Not much man but this weekend me and my girlfriend rented a cottage so we can chill.
    Masculine Gay: Oh right on. My boyfriend and I are thinking of going to see Chronicle this weekend. I heard it didn't get very good reviews though so I dunno.

    131326848870.gif