anabolic steroids

  • VOLCANOMYTE

    Posts: 13

    Feb 11, 2012 2:31 AM GMT
    anabolizantes.jpg

    Some people have used anabolic steroids,but few like to talk about it. The anabolic steroids have emerged in the 80s, watching some videos of bodybuilding championships in 1969 ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Iaz_r2t-g&feature=related ), I could see how the muscular bodies are natural if compared to huge bodies today. But anyway, I want to hear other opinions:
    Do you use anabolic steroids? What substance?
    Are you satisfied with the results? Did you feel any side effects?


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    Feb 11, 2012 4:47 AM GMT
    VOLCANOMYTE saidSome people have used anabolic steroids, but the race issue when there is a debate on the subject.


    I'm sorry did you run this through Google translator from a very foreign language? It makes no sense.
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    Feb 11, 2012 4:56 AM GMT
    Ariodante said
    VOLCANOMYTE saidSome people have used anabolic steroids, but the race issue when there is a debate on the subject.


    I'm sorry did you run this through Google translator from a very foreign language? It makes no sense.


    Yeah. It took me three times to realize he meant "they raise issues..."
    Kept reading that sentence over and over trying to figure out what race had to do with roids.
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    Feb 11, 2012 4:58 AM GMT
    Ariodante said
    VOLCANOMYTE saidSome people have used anabolic steroids, but the race issue when there is a debate on the subject.


    I'm sorry did you run this through Google translator from a very foreign language? It makes no sense.


    agreed.

    To OP, read this:

    AZAR%20-%20ENGLISH%20GRAMMAR.JPG

    and try again
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    Feb 11, 2012 7:43 AM GMT
    Gym_bull saidok 1) your a moron, we have made great progress in the health and fitness science field. You just need to do some studying and effort to look a certain way.
    2) Make sure you read what you type. You need to make sense to get decent responses.


    You're ... as in you are.
  • VOLCANOMYTE

    Posts: 13

    Feb 11, 2012 1:15 PM GMT
    Ariodante said
    VOLCANOMYTE saidSome people have used anabolic steroids, but the race issue when there is a debate on the subject.


    I'm sorry did you run this through Google translator from a very foreign language? It makes no sense.




    Yes. You're right. I should read a little better before posting.
    Unfortunately I do not speak English very well, I'm actually learning. Sorry too.
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    Feb 11, 2012 2:03 PM GMT
    To answer the actualy quation posed, now that we've gotten past the bad grammar and spelling issues:

    Steroids (incorrectly named by the common press) refers to a group of compounds that share a multiple similar ring structure, including vitamin D, cholesterol, prednisone, hydrocortisone, estrogen and testosterone. The latter of these (and its analogues) is what the common press is refering to when it says "steroids."

    These have bene around far longer than the 1980's, having been brought into existance in this country by Dr. john Ziegler and Ciba labs in the 1950's as an oral testoserone and put intot he hands of the athletic community shortly thereafter. Testosterone was used openly in athletics until the compound was villifed by the US Congress in the late 1980's following a couple of news generating deaths, which were blamed on testosterone but lacked an credible medical evidence (one a former profootball player with a brain tumor who blamed it on steroids---the problem here is taht ofr his claim to ahve held scientifically there would have had to have been a greater incidence of brain or other tumors in the steroid using community than in the regular community at large (and there was not).

    In spite of protests to the US Congress made by the American Medical Association, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), COngress chose to make a political move rather than a scientific one. No stidues had actually benn done on testoterone and the decisions wer being made without an credible evidence.

    In 1996 the first of a string of studies on testoerone appeared in medical journals in the USA (New England Journal of Medicine), and it, along with numerous studies since, has not supported the governemtn's position that testosterone is the danger they have made it out to be. Even the famed "roid rage" study was done on rodents.

    The other popular fraud sold to the American public is that use of testoerone is cheating. But somehow, speed suits in swimming, specially designed track shoes for running, fiberglass poles for pole vaulting and streoid shots of the antiinflammatory nature (prednisone) do not constitute cheating, You can get a good primer of the double speak of the US Congress and the realities of testosterone use in the documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster: Is it Still Cheating if Everyone is Doing It?"

    As far as use goes:
    1) There are risks so know what you are doing for a cycle before you start. You have to know how to run a post cycle as well to being your body back into functional balance. Research and learn or you can permenantly ruin your hormone system in your body.
    2) HIgh doses should not be done for long periods of time (no more than 10 to 12 weeks at most)
    3) Testoerone supplimenting is not a quick fix or easy out to growin muscles fast; it is meant to be used by the seasoned/advanced athlete
    4) Along wiht the whole NOT a quick fix notion, use of injected testosterone is not going work unless the muscles are worked so expect to be in the gym lifting hard, eating a lot and resting. If you are hte partying type, you will have limited success, jsut as you would if training testosterone free.
    5) Injectiable test is better than oral test due to the molecular alteration needed at the 17th carbon to protect the alcohol molecule on it from premature deatruction by the liver on first pass metabolism. This alteration (usually the addiiton of a methyl group to the 17th carbon) stresses the liver and causes water retention, high liver enzymes and high blood pressure mainly from the water retention). Injectable testosterones (enenthate, cypionate, propionate, deca, equipoise) do not ahve this alteration and do not stress the liver like orals do.
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    Feb 11, 2012 2:43 PM GMT
    MuscledHorse saidTo answer the actualy quation posed, now that we've gotten past the bad grammar and spelling issues:

    Steroids (incorrectly named by the common press) refers to a group of compounds that share a multiple similar ring structure, including vitamin D, cholesterol, prednisone, hydrocortisone, estrogen and testosterone. The latter of these (and its analogues) is what the common press is refering to when it says "steroids."

    These have bene around far longer than the 1980's, having been brought into existance in this country by Dr. john Ziegler and Ciba labs in the 1950's as an oral testoserone and put intot he hands of the athletic community shortly thereafter. Testosterone was used openly in athletics until the compound was villifed by the US Congress in the late 1980's following a couple of news generating deaths, which were blamed on testosterone but lacked an credible medical evidence (one a former profootball player with a brain tumor who blamed it on steroids---the problem here is taht ofr his claim to ahve held scientifically there would have had to have been a greater incidence of brain or other tumors in the steroid using community than in the regular community at large (and there was not).

    In spite of protests to the US Congress made by the American Medical Association, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), COngress chose to make a political move rather than a scientific one. No stidues had actually benn done on testoterone and the decisions wer being made without an credible evidence.

    In 1996 the first of a string of studies on testoerone appeared in medical journals in the USA (New England Journal of Medicine), and it, along with numerous studies since, has not supported the governemtn's position that testosterone is the danger they have made it out to be. Even the famed "roid rage" study was done on rodents.

    The other popular fraud sold to the American public is that use of testoerone is cheating. But somehow, speed suits in swimming, specially designed track shoes for running, fiberglass poles for pole vaulting and streoid shots of the antiinflammatory nature (prednisone) do not constitute cheating, You can get a good primer of the double speak of the US Congress and the realities of testosterone use in the documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster: Is it Still Cheating if Everyone is Doing It?"

    As far as use goes:
    1) There are risks so know what you are doing for a cycle before you start. You have to know how to run a post cycle as well to being your body back into functional balance. Research and learn or you can permenantly ruin your hormone system in your body.
    2) HIgh doses should not be done for long periods of time (no more than 10 to 12 weeks at most)
    3) Testoerone supplimenting is not a quick fix or easy out to growin muscles fast; it is meant to be used by the seasoned/advanced athlete
    4) Along wiht the whole NOT a quick fix notion, use of injected testosterone is not going work unless the muscles are worked so expect to be in the gym lifting hard, eating a lot and resting. If you are hte partying type, you will have limited success, jsut as you would if training testosterone free.
    5) Injectiable test is better than oral test due to the molecular alteration needed at the 17th carbon to protect the alcohol molecule on it from premature deatruction by the liver on first pass metabolism. This alteration (usually the addiiton of a methyl group to the 17th carbon) stresses the liver and causes water retention, high liver enzymes and high blood pressure mainly from the water retention). Injectable testosterones (enenthate, cypionate, propionate, deca, equipoise) do not ahve this alteration and do not stress the liver like orals do.


    You are making it sound like it is all good if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately these pathways aren't researched well enough for you to know that. You're a lab rat because human experimentation has ceased thanks to IRB regulation of such research. My physiology professor has done steroids and told us they work and that they aren't healthy to do.

    Plus there is a lot more research that hasn't been done yet that will probably (and my professors also hold this opinion, yet not backed by research) come to the conclusion that having too much lean mass for your frame size not only decreases your efficient use of oxygen (so it decreases your VO2max) but also your strength:mass ratio. Making the human body work like a Hummer is 1) not environmentally friendly 2) have higher maintenance 3) shortened lifespan. And it doesn't look good to have muscles caricaturely big.
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    Feb 11, 2012 2:52 PM GMT
    I've never used roids (I'd never take anything that was likely to give me zits) but I have observations based on people I know who have used them.

    No one seems more comfortable in their skin or more happy with their bodies even though they get bigger.
    Long term use seems to fuck with their skin (bubbly, red, weird, hard to describe but characteristic).
    One has a big scar on his thigh from infection. He's a doctor so yes he knows how to keep things sterile but it still got him. He tried to kill it with oral antibiotics but had to drive rather far to a hospital, with a busted leg that he was a bit afraid of losing, so that he could get it drained.

    If you watch "Bigger Stronger Faster: Is it Still Cheating if Everyone is Doing It?" you'll notice that the two brothers (main characters) on roids definitely aren't happier because of them and probably are less happy. In fact they are, to be blunt, losers.
  • Rusty491

    Posts: 26

    Feb 11, 2012 3:03 PM GMT
    A good friend of mine has used steroids since he was 15. He says his balls are the size of raisins because he never finished puberty, he went bald in his twenties, his muscles are so big that he cannot walk normally, and they're weak for their size. He has torn each bicep and had to have surgery and painful physical therapy as a result. I don't think he regrets using steroids all together, but he knows it was a terrible idea to start when he was so young, as it interfered with his normal development.
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    Feb 11, 2012 3:08 PM GMT
    Rusty491 saidA good friend of mine has used steroids since he was 15. He says his balls are the size of raisins because he never finished puberty, he went bald in his twenties, his muscles are so big that he cannot walk normally, and they're weak for their size. He has torn each bicep and had to have surgery and painful physical therapy as a result. I don't think he regrets using steroids all together, but he knows it was a terrible idea to start when he was so young, as it interfered with his normal development.


    I've never done steroids and am bald and still have some acne. I don't think those should be used as signs someone is doing anything. The real dangerous thing is what it is doing on the inside.
  • Rusty491

    Posts: 26

    Feb 11, 2012 3:14 PM GMT
    bluey2223 said
    Rusty491 saidA good friend of mine has used steroids since he was 15. He says his balls are the size of raisins because he never finished puberty, he went bald in his twenties, his muscles are so big that he cannot walk normally, and they're weak for their size. He has torn each bicep and had to have surgery and painful physical therapy as a result. I don't think he regrets using steroids all together, but he knows it was a terrible idea to start when he was so young, as it interfered with his normal development.


    I've never done steroids and am bald and still have some acne. I don't think those should be used as signs someone is doing anything. The real dangerous thing is what it is doing on the inside.


    Of course- I understand many people lose their hair earlier than average (bald IS beautiful, by the way), but in his family and at that age, it was very unusual and he links it to steroid use.
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    Feb 12, 2012 2:34 AM GMT
    bluey2223 said
    MuscledHorse saidTo answer the actualy quation posed, now that we've gotten past the bad grammar and spelling issues:

    Steroids (incorrectly named by the common press) refers to a group of compounds that share a multiple similar ring structure, including vitamin D, cholesterol, prednisone, hydrocortisone, estrogen and testosterone. The latter of these (and its analogues) is what the common press is refering to when it says "steroids."

    These have bene around far longer than the 1980's, having been brought into existance in this country by Dr. john Ziegler and Ciba labs in the 1950's as an oral testoserone and put intot he hands of the athletic community shortly thereafter. Testosterone was used openly in athletics until the compound was villifed by the US Congress in the late 1980's following a couple of news generating deaths, which were blamed on testosterone but lacked an credible medical evidence (one a former profootball player with a brain tumor who blamed it on steroids---the problem here is taht ofr his claim to ahve held scientifically there would have had to have been a greater incidence of brain or other tumors in the steroid using community than in the regular community at large (and there was not).

    In spite of protests to the US Congress made by the American Medical Association, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), COngress chose to make a political move rather than a scientific one. No stidues had actually benn done on testoterone and the decisions wer being made without an credible evidence.

    In 1996 the first of a string of studies on testoerone appeared in medical journals in the USA (New England Journal of Medicine), and it, along with numerous studies since, has not supported the governemtn's position that testosterone is the danger they have made it out to be. Even the famed "roid rage" study was done on rodents.

    The other popular fraud sold to the American public is that use of testoerone is cheating. But somehow, speed suits in swimming, specially designed track shoes for running, fiberglass poles for pole vaulting and streoid shots of the antiinflammatory nature (prednisone) do not constitute cheating, You can get a good primer of the double speak of the US Congress and the realities of testosterone use in the documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster: Is it Still Cheating if Everyone is Doing It?"

    As far as use goes:
    1) There are risks so know what you are doing for a cycle before you start. You have to know how to run a post cycle as well to being your body back into functional balance. Research and learn or you can permenantly ruin your hormone system in your body.
    2) HIgh doses should not be done for long periods of time (no more than 10 to 12 weeks at most)
    3) Testoerone supplimenting is not a quick fix or easy out to growin muscles fast; it is meant to be used by the seasoned/advanced athlete
    4) Along wiht the whole NOT a quick fix notion, use of injected testosterone is not going work unless the muscles are worked so expect to be in the gym lifting hard, eating a lot and resting. If you are hte partying type, you will have limited success, jsut as you would if training testosterone free.
    5) Injectiable test is better than oral test due to the molecular alteration needed at the 17th carbon to protect the alcohol molecule on it from premature deatruction by the liver on first pass metabolism. This alteration (usually the addiiton of a methyl group to the 17th carbon) stresses the liver and causes water retention, high liver enzymes and high blood pressure mainly from the water retention). Injectable testosterones (enenthate, cypionate, propionate, deca, equipoise) do not ahve this alteration and do not stress the liver like orals do.


    You are making it sound like it is all good if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately these pathways aren't researched well enough for you to know that. You're a lab rat because human experimentation has ceased thanks to IRB regulation of such research. My physiology professor has done steroids and told us they work and that they aren't healthy to do.

    Plus there is a lot more research that hasn't been done yet that will probably (and my professors also hold this opinion, yet not backed by research) come to the conclusion that having too much lean mass for your frame size not only decreases your efficient use of oxygen (so it decreases your VO2max) but also your strength:mass ratio. Making the human body work like a Hummer is 1) not environmentally friendly 2) have higher maintenance 3) shortened lifespan. And it doesn't look good to have muscles caricaturely big.


    Actually there is plenty of evidence testosterone can be used safely and effectively. A number of studies now exist that show short term suprephysiological doses are not a hazard. Further, a pile of research ahs bene done on testsoterone in AIDS patients (see "Built to Survive" in whatever its current edition is) that shows the benefits. The problem is that too many people
    a) Don't do their homework so they know what all they are doing. Thus they wind up dosing incorrectly, using too long and/or not restrting their endogenous production of test at thend of the cycle.
    b) Don't just do a single cycle and then lay off for a good while (i.e. a year or more). They start to lose some size and strength in post cycle and then go back on rather than giving their body time to adjust to support the new size on its own and building back up to and then past where they maxed out while on their cycle.
    c) take the pros as a good model to follow. Unless you are planning to live your life like a prize steer there is no cause to do the quantitiy and frequency of supplements, including test, that pros do. You can make solid gains in size and strength doing a onlay a few cycles spread over a seriesof years.

    And yes, speaking as one with an advanced medical degree and idiopathic osteoporosis that had to be treated with HGH and test to get my bone density back into normal range, I can say that testoterone is a safe supplement in your growth and development (assuming you are well into your 20's and NOT a teenager still growing) if you you see it as a tool among many rather than something to use as a constant short cut.
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    Feb 12, 2012 2:40 AM GMT
    I recommend alternating shooting steroids in your eye and testicles for best results. No pain no gain!

    Good luck OP!
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    Feb 12, 2012 3:03 AM GMT
    It's difficult to weigh this question with scientific evidence. Most studies are done on patients with muscle wasting disease and at far lower doses of testosterone than most people take for significant muscle gain.

    I have a friend who swears by them and yeah sorry but he looks great. I've never been a competitive person, so I don't see that much of a reason to do them but if someone really could make a case for their safety and reasonable usage I might think about it.

    From what I've seen the effects on the body can be drastic, but usually are not. Each person responds differently. The major issues are from long-term usage and its effect on the endocrine system, which in turn effects every organ of the body.

    There is a lot of negativity around using ANY drug to just make yourself better. It's called cosmetic pharmacology and its becoming a big issue. At the end of the day, I think its your body and if you are willing to bear the risk of long-term health effects then go for it. But for some reason we have no problem with plastic surgery. Go figure.

    We all do things we should not do and most of us have taken prescription medications that somewhere in the side effect profiles have a potential for some very nasty outcomes. I've taken Accutane to get rid of acne, and there is evidence that it changes your genetic code (for skin) and could cause colitis and Crohns disease.

    You are right though, very, very few people are going to admit to using steroids outside any kind of environment they know they are going to get negative responses from.
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    Feb 12, 2012 3:12 AM GMT
    I love this subject... but it's so big I don't know even where to start. icon_lol.gif
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    Feb 12, 2012 1:38 PM GMT
    MuscledHorse said
    bluey2223 said
    MuscledHorse said

    Actually there is plenty of evidence testosterone can be used safely and effectively. A number of studies now exist that show short term suprephysiological doses are not a hazard. Further, a pile of research ahs bene done on testsoterone in AIDS patients (see "Built to Survive" in whatever its current edition is) that shows the benefits. The problem is that too many people
    a) Don't do their homework so they know what all they are doing. Thus they wind up dosing incorrectly, using too long and/or not restrting their endogenous production of test at thend of the cycle.
    b) Don't just do a single cycle and then lay off for a good while (i.e. a year or more). They start to lose some size and strength in post cycle and then go back on rather than giving their body time to adjust to support the new size on its own and building back up to and then past where they maxed out while on their cycle.
    c) take the pros as a good model to follow. Unless you are planning to live your life like a prize steer there is no cause to do the quantitiy and frequency of supplements, including test, that pros do. You can make solid gains in size and strength doing a onlay a few cycles spread over a seriesof years.

    And yes, speaking as one with an advanced medical degree and idiopathic osteoporosis that had to be treated with HGH and test to get my bone density back into normal range, I can say that testoterone is a safe supplement in your growth and development (assuming you are well into your 20's and NOT a teenager still growing) if you you see it as a tool among many rather than something to use as a constant short cut.


    Please cite your studies. Sounds to me like another Dr. Stoppani, ie someone who holds non-standard medical views. The aging research has shown that playing with your body physiology doesn't do you much good at all. From a functional standpoint, all I see is 20 lbs more mass on you with no extra function and less strength and VO2max. My hypothesis for the heart problems steroid users get is due to the extra 20 lbs on your frame (that classifies you as obese in terms of weight for height equations and BMI). That's certainly not making you any more efficient.
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    Feb 12, 2012 4:08 PM GMT
    I will get some of those posted tonight for you. And you need a better grounding in medicine startign witht he fact that testosterone was villifed and made a controlled substance AGAINST the advice of the AMA, FDA and DEA and in the complete absence of any medical evidence. Since then piles of studies have been done on the effects of testosterone on everything from bone density to memory decline. Just because something is non-standard in medicine does NOT mean that it is correct. Medicine is constantly having to correct its views because evidence does not match the long held belief (this is called evidence based medicine). In fact, it's origins come from a physician in the late 1960's who questioned the conventional widom of medicine that the tonsils needed to be removed. As a result of this contrary questioning, we no longer do this as standard practice on every child. Ditto that for heliobactor pylori, the bacteria that casues ulcers, which was rejected for years by the medical commuinty before they finally succumbed to the overwhelming evidence that a bacteria could thrive in the high acid content of the stomach and treated ulcers accordingly. Ditto that for the held belief in medicine that putting a patient with certain types of heart arryhtmias was a good idea. One day, someone reviewed the literature and discovered taht such patients did have a more steady heartbeat but they died sooner than those who went uncorrected. And, as the nation succumbs to bad diet and no exercise and fat people with diabetes overtakes everything (especially here in the south) we find that the contrarian who said it's the carbs stupid, not the fat, ahs proven to be correct, though not to the extreme he went (see the book "Sugar Nation" for more on that point). In the meantime if you want ot get started you can always go to PubMed and do medical literature searches starting with the first one to prove the goverment was wrong:

    The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men" from the New England Journal of Medicine 1996.
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    Feb 13, 2012 2:51 AM GMT
    No doubt. I question the lipid hypothesis, ie that cholesterol is a factor for heart disease, in those with familial hypercholesterolemia. There's no need for my entire family to be on statins just because their numbers are high and they are otherwise healthy. But that's conventional medicine. The dietetics and kinesiology fields are doing the same with revising conventional practice with evidenced based practice. Unfortunately, the AMA is behind the AND (Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics) in having an EAL, Evidence Analysis Library. We're the only healthcare profession that actually have a database like this. Maybe the AMA should get with it, as doctors DON'T know everything anymore...but the public and you guys just pretend you do.
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    Feb 19, 2012 1:24 AM GMT
    Not to derail the topic... but:

    How do prohormones/pre-cursors play into this?

    Or testosterone boosters (such as T-Bomb II) that use herbal extracts from Tribulus terrestris, Tongkat Ali, etc. ?

    Does his stuff need to be cycled with some sort of equivalent post-cycle estrogen blocking supplements?

    Or is this stuff just junk and a waste of money to the supplement industry?
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    Feb 19, 2012 2:14 AM GMT
    AlphaTrigger saidOr is this stuff just junk and a waste of money to the supplement industry?


    Pro-hormones are a kind of junk that exists because of a very peculiar combination of laws in your country. On one hand you have a hysterical draconian tight-ass legislation on steroids that even your medical authorities contest. On the other hand, you have a black-list style of legislation on "supplements" that would be considered lax by most countries. This combination creates a market for these designer steroids, which are sold as "supplements". It's a junk, but a legal junk nevertheless.
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    Feb 19, 2012 2:54 AM GMT
    bachian said
    AlphaTrigger saidOr is this stuff just junk and a waste of money to the supplement industry?


    Pro-hormones are a kind of junk that exists because of a very peculiar combination of laws in your country. On one hand you have a hysterical draconian tight-ass legislation on steroids that even your medical authorities contest. On the other hand, you have a black-list style of legislation on "supplements" that would be considered lax by most countries. This combination creates a market for these designer steroids, which are sold as "supplements". It's a junk, but a legal junk nevertheless.


    Excellently put. I agree.
    From what I've studied, all the pro-hormones haven't passed muster in terms of any studies done. Lots of them convert to estrogen.

    The body has negative feedback loops. If you increase serum testosterone (free), more binding protein will be created, decreasing free testosterone. If you increase the binding protein (not sure why you'd do that), then more testosterone will be created to reach homeostasis. Or the body could down regulate its own production via the testes, or it could down regulate the receptors on the various cells because they are receiving too much testosterone, thereby requiring even more free serum testosterone to get the same effect.

    I think this is why when you're going through puberty you're horny all the time, but you get used to that as an adult and think you've lost your libido.
  • FlypinHigh

    Posts: 465

    Feb 19, 2012 2:55 AM GMT
    who wants to share their roid needles with me?
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    Feb 19, 2012 3:02 AM GMT
    MuscledHorse said

    The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men" from the New England Journal of Medicine 1996.


    The only thing this study showed was that a) steroids work (which has never truly in dispute and is not the reason why they're controlled substances), and b) people who took steroids and didn't do ANY weight lifting still gained more lean body mass than people who didn't take steroids and lifted weights.

    There is nothing in this study that shows anything regarding the long-term benefits vs harms of supraphysiological doses of anabolic steroids.
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    Feb 19, 2012 6:40 AM GMT
    I will Fly....then we can pass em on to Triver, he needs them.