Detroit: The Triumph of Progressive Public Policy - Officially enters Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

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    Feb 16, 2012 5:05 AM GMT
    Progressive public policy doesn't seem to be working out for California and Illinois either...

    http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/12832

    How did this great city fall so far?

    (Editor's note: This is an updated version of an article that originally appeared on July 6, 2009.)

    Imagine a city where all the major economic planks of the statist or "progressive" platform have been enacted:

    - A "living wage" ordinance, far above the federal minimum wage, for all public employees and private contractors.
    - A school system that spends significantly more per pupil than the national average.
    - A powerful school employee union that militantly defends the exceptional pay, benefits and job security it has won for its members.
    Other government employee unions that do the same for their members.
    - A tax system that aggressively redistributes income from businesses and the wealthy to the poor and to government bureaucracies.
    Would this be a shining city on a hill, exciting the admiration of all? We don't have to guess, because there is such a city right here in our state: Detroit

    Detroit has been dubbed "the most liberal city in America" and each of these "progressive" policies is alive and well there. How have they worked out?

    In 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in America on a per capita income basis. Today, the Census Bureau reports that it is the nation's 2nd poorest major city, just "edging out" Cleveland.

    Could it be pure coincidence that the decline occurred over the same period in which union power, the city government bureaucracy, taxes and business regulations all multiplied? While correlation is not causation, it is striking that the decline in per capita income is exactly what classical economists predict would occur when wage controls are imposed and taxes are increased.
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    Feb 16, 2012 5:13 AM GMT
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122488710556068177.html

    The author: "Paul Ingrassia is the former Detroit bureau chief for The Wall Street Journal. He is writing a book about America's car culture."

    An interesting read.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Feb 16, 2012 1:19 PM GMT
    Ooooh wait

    Then like we shoulda let GM die completely like Romney said?
    When they needed the loan back in 08?

    That woulda been a Real shot in Detroits armNo?

    LOL.... Oh republican publicity slays me icon_biggrin.gif
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    Feb 16, 2012 3:16 PM GMT
    GQjock saidOoooh wait

    Then like we shoulda let GM die completely like Romney said?
    When they needed the loan back in 08?

    That woulda been a Real shot in Detroits armNo?

    LOL.... Oh republican publicity slays me icon_biggrin.gif





    You got this right for sure !!!


    Republicans and dem's going along with outsourcing american jobs played a huge role in Detroits demise along with all of Michigans loss of its manufacturing base.


    When I came of working age in Michigan there were huge factories constantly hiring and expanding right along with small businesses being created and doing well. Once outsourcing came along with Reaganomics these businesses started closing, one after another. Now all over Michigan there are multiple closed and boarded up factories in every town, with grass and trees coming up in their parking lot paving cracks. Its a very sad picture to see when I go back home.
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    Feb 16, 2012 3:36 PM GMT
    Outsourcing was not specific to Detroit - not to mention the fact that corruption is pretty common when there are entrenched politicians/political parties who believe in spending/regulating for the greater good (New Orleans, Chicago, etc) for the simple reason that without the spending/regulating it's not easy to hide the corruption. Further, it's the people of Detroit who not only voted for these initiatives but these corrupt politicians over and over again.

    Let's not forget how dramatic this fall was: "In 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in America on a per capita income basis. Today, the Census Bureau reports that it is the nation's 2nd poorest major city, just "edging out" Cleveland."

    Counter arguments made here been unconvincing at best.
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    Feb 16, 2012 4:07 PM GMT
    riddler78 saidOutsourcing was not specific to Detroit - not to mention the fact that corruption is pretty common when there are entrenched politicians/political parties who believe in spending/regulating for the greater good (New Orleans, Chicago, etc) for the simple reason that without the spending/regulating it's not easy to hide the corruption. Further, it's the people of Detroit who not only voted for these initiatives but these corrupt politicians over and over again.

    Let's not forget how dramatic this fall was: "In 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in America on a per capita income basis. Today, the Census Bureau reports that it is the nation's 2nd poorest major city, just "edging out" Cleveland."

    Counter arguments made here been unconvincing at best.


    I believe JPtheBITCH summed it up quite accurately. After the 60's race riots the city tax base was decimated. IIRC there was even a measure put forth in the 70's that city employees, maybe it was just the police not sure, had to actually be Detroit citizens,, they were all fleeing the city as well. Not sure if that passed. Many manufacturing businesses didn't just up and flee afterthe riots,, they were still there chugging along with the same employees only now those employees were commuting in from the suburbs. It was outsourcing that killed those businesses like it has everywhere else.
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    Feb 16, 2012 5:20 PM GMT
    beneful1 said
    riddler78 saidOutsourcing was not specific to Detroit - not to mention the fact that corruption is pretty common when there are entrenched politicians/political parties who believe in spending/regulating for the greater good (New Orleans, Chicago, etc) for the simple reason that without the spending/regulating it's not easy to hide the corruption. Further, it's the people of Detroit who not only voted for these initiatives but these corrupt politicians over and over again.

    Let's not forget how dramatic this fall was: "In 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in America on a per capita income basis. Today, the Census Bureau reports that it is the nation's 2nd poorest major city, just "edging out" Cleveland."

    Counter arguments made here been unconvincing at best.


    I believe JPtheBITCH summed it up quite accurately. After the 60's race riots the city tax base was decimated. IIRC there was even a measure put forth in the 70's that city employees, maybe it was just the police not sure, had to actually be Detroit citizens,, they were all fleeing the city as well. Not sure if that passed. Many manufacturing businesses didn't just up and flee afterthe riots,, they were still there chugging along with the same employees only now those employees were commuting in from the suburbs. It was outsourcing that killed those businesses like it has everywhere else.


    Except outsourcing hasn't killed jobs like everywhere else. Detroit is one of the worst performers in the US but it started out as one of the best. This wasn't a fast or rapid decline - it happened gradually with businesses and people moving away - but this is not the same experience as other cities. In the decline of an industry, greater flexibility allows for new businesses to be created and to thrive.
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    Feb 16, 2012 5:38 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    beneful1 said
    riddler78 saidOutsourcing was not specific to Detroit - not to mention the fact that corruption is pretty common when there are entrenched politicians/political parties who believe in spending/regulating for the greater good (New Orleans, Chicago, etc) for the simple reason that without the spending/regulating it's not easy to hide the corruption. Further, it's the people of Detroit who not only voted for these initiatives but these corrupt politicians over and over again.

    Let's not forget how dramatic this fall was: "In 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in America on a per capita income basis. Today, the Census Bureau reports that it is the nation's 2nd poorest major city, just "edging out" Cleveland."

    Counter arguments made here been unconvincing at best.


    I believe JPtheBITCH summed it up quite accurately. After the 60's race riots the city tax base was decimated. IIRC there was even a measure put forth in the 70's that city employees, maybe it was just the police not sure, had to actually be Detroit citizens,, they were all fleeing the city as well. Not sure if that passed. Many manufacturing businesses didn't just up and flee afterthe riots,, they were still there chugging along with the same employees only now those employees were commuting in from the suburbs. It was outsourcing that killed those businesses like it has everywhere else.


    Except outsourcing hasn't killed jobs like everywhere else. Detroit is one of the worst performers in the US but it started out as one of the best. This wasn't a fast or rapid decline - it happened gradually with businesses moving away - but this is not the same experience as other cities.


    Hey Y'all -

    Riddler is VERY pro-outsourcing so I wouldn't expect an honest discussion from him about how trade policy effected the auto industry.
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    Feb 16, 2012 5:45 PM GMT
    Christian73 saidHey Y'all -

    Riddler is VERY pro-outsourcing so I wouldn't expect an honest discussion from him about how trade policy effected the auto industry.


    You're right - I am very much pro outsourcing (just as I am in technology) because it's quite similar to Clayton Christensen's idea of disruptive innovation. The only one being dishonest are those like you who seemingly believe that countries should tie themselves to industries and firms irrespective of demand and needs of markets - who are surprisingly also made up of people.

    I'm just as guilty at bandying about words like markets when markets are just made up of people - largely Americans who choose to buy goods that meet their needs and not those of a given firm's employee's unions. When pensions negotiated at a time when the demographics were favorable became the poison that has killed the domestic automakers, those like you advocated regulation, protectionism and bailouts because to let them fail would mean accountability for past mistakes.
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    Feb 16, 2012 5:53 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidHey Y'all -

    Riddler is VERY pro-outsourcing so I wouldn't expect an honest discussion from him about how trade policy effected the auto industry.


    You're right - I am very much pro outsourcing (just as I am in technology) because it's quite similar to Clayton Christensen's idea of disruptive innovation. The only one being dishonest are those like you who seemingly believe that countries should tie themselves to industries and firms irrespective of demand and needs of markets - who are surprisingly also made up of people.

    I'm just as guilty at bandying about words like markets when markets are just made up of people - largely Americans who choose to buy goods that meet their needs and not those of a given firm's employee's unions. When pensions negotiated at a time when the demographics were favorable became the poison that has killed the domestic automakers, those like you advocated regulation, protectionism and bailouts because to let them fail would mean accountability for past mistakes.


    And, again, you argue against points no one has made in a discussion that is not being had.

    But, I'll say this. If you think the working poor would not prefer to shop somewhere besides Walmart, you're crazy. Walmart (and other big box stores) became necessary to maintain the semblance of a middle class lifestyle because jobs were shipped overseas. Americans do not want cheap crap made elsewhere but that's all they've been able to afford.

    And, I'll be interested to know when Clayton's feelings are when his job has been off-shored and he realizes that Target is too expensive for his newfound poverty. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Feb 16, 2012 5:56 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidHey Y'all -

    Riddler is VERY pro-outsourcing so I wouldn't expect an honest discussion from him about how trade policy effected the auto industry.


    You're right - I am very much pro outsourcing (just as I am in technology) because it's quite similar to Clayton Christensen's idea of disruptive innovation. The only one being dishonest are those like you who seemingly believe that countries should tie themselves to industries and firms irrespective of demand and needs of markets - who are surprisingly also made up of people.

    I'm just as guilty at bandying about words like markets when markets are just made up of people - largely Americans who choose to buy goods that meet their needs and not those of a given firm's employee's unions. When pensions negotiated at a time when the demographics were favorable became the poison that has killed the domestic automakers, those like you advocated regulation, protectionism and bailouts because to let them fail would mean accountability for past mistakes.


    And, again, you argue against points no one has made in a discussion that is not being had.

    But, I'll say this. If you think the working poor would not prefer to shop somewhere besides Walmart, you're crazy. Walmart (and other big box stores) became necessary to maintain the semblance of a middle class lifestyle because jobs were shipped overseas. Americans do not want cheap crap made elsewhere but that's all they've been able to afford.

    And, I'll be interested to know when Clayton's feelings are when his job has been off-shored and he realizes that Target is too expensive for his newfound poverty. icon_rolleyes.gif


    And yet, that's where they go to shop. The irony is that you claim that I have argued points no one has made and yet you bring up Walmart. In fact for all your derision, Walmart has had a significant impact on the standard of living everywhere they've gone while many retailers continue to thrive and survive. In fact, most retailing has bifurcated such that stores no longer try to be all things to all people. That you find the choice offensive speaks more to you than my arguments.
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    Feb 16, 2012 6:00 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidHey Y'all -

    Riddler is VERY pro-outsourcing so I wouldn't expect an honest discussion from him about how trade policy effected the auto industry.


    You're right - I am very much pro outsourcing (just as I am in technology) because it's quite similar to Clayton Christensen's idea of disruptive innovation. The only one being dishonest are those like you who seemingly believe that countries should tie themselves to industries and firms irrespective of demand and needs of markets - who are surprisingly also made up of people.

    I'm just as guilty at bandying about words like markets when markets are just made up of people - largely Americans who choose to buy goods that meet their needs and not those of a given firm's employee's unions. When pensions negotiated at a time when the demographics were favorable became the poison that has killed the domestic automakers, those like you advocated regulation, protectionism and bailouts because to let them fail would mean accountability for past mistakes.


    And, again, you argue against points no one has made in a discussion that is not being had.

    But, I'll say this. If you think the working poor would not prefer to shop somewhere besides Walmart, you're crazy. Walmart (and other big box stores) became necessary to maintain the semblance of a middle class lifestyle because jobs were shipped overseas. Americans do not want cheap crap made elsewhere but that's all they've been able to afford.

    And, I'll be interested to know when Clayton's feelings are when his job has been off-shored and he realizes that Target is too expensive for his newfound poverty. icon_rolleyes.gif


    And yet, that's where they go to shop. The irony is that you claim that I have argued points no one has made and yet you bring up Walmart. In fact for all your derision, Walmart has had a significant impact on the standard of living everywhere they've gone while many retailers continue to thrive and survive. In fact, most retailing has bifurcated such that stores no longer try to be all things to all people. That you find the choice offensive speaks more to you than my arguments.


    That's where they are forced to shop, particularly in rural and suburban areas where Walmart has forced out the majority of locally owned stores by underselling them.

    Where do you shop? icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Feb 16, 2012 6:03 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidHey Y'all -

    Riddler is VERY pro-outsourcing so I wouldn't expect an honest discussion from him about how trade policy effected the auto industry.


    You're right - I am very much pro outsourcing (just as I am in technology) because it's quite similar to Clayton Christensen's idea of disruptive innovation. The only one being dishonest are those like you who seemingly believe that countries should tie themselves to industries and firms irrespective of demand and needs of markets - who are surprisingly also made up of people.

    I'm just as guilty at bandying about words like markets when markets are just made up of people - largely Americans who choose to buy goods that meet their needs and not those of a given firm's employee's unions. When pensions negotiated at a time when the demographics were favorable became the poison that has killed the domestic automakers, those like you advocated regulation, protectionism and bailouts because to let them fail would mean accountability for past mistakes.


    And, again, you argue against points no one has made in a discussion that is not being had.

    But, I'll say this. If you think the working poor would not prefer to shop somewhere besides Walmart, you're crazy. Walmart (and other big box stores) became necessary to maintain the semblance of a middle class lifestyle because jobs were shipped overseas. Americans do not want cheap crap made elsewhere but that's all they've been able to afford.

    And, I'll be interested to know when Clayton's feelings are when his job has been off-shored and he realizes that Target is too expensive for his newfound poverty. icon_rolleyes.gif


    And yet, that's where they go to shop. The irony is that you claim that I have argued points no one has made and yet you bring up Walmart. In fact for all your derision, Walmart has had a significant impact on the standard of living everywhere they've gone while many retailers continue to thrive and survive. In fact, most retailing has bifurcated such that stores no longer try to be all things to all people. That you find the choice offensive speaks more to you than my arguments.


    That's where they are forced to shop, particularly in rural and suburban areas where Walmart has forced out the majority of locally owned stores by underselling them.

    Where do you shop? icon_rolleyes.gif


    In the US? I generally shop at Amazon. As for being forced to shop at these places in rural and suburban areas? You talk as if Walmart went out and actively shut down these uncompetitive businesses when the reality is quite different:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_162-46240103/the-myth-of-the-walmart-effect/

    Everybody knows that when Walmart comes in, local small businesses get wiped out. But as is often the case, everybody is wrong.

    Recent research shows that while some small businesses do suffer when the Bentonville behemoth builds nearby, others prosper. And when you dig into it, you find that it may not be Walmart that is hurting small retailers and small communities. It may be that they're hurting themselves, by blindly accepting the what-everybody-knows myth of the Walmart effect.


    After all Christian - apparently *you* don;'t need facts, all you need apparently are anecdotes that you claim as fact.
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    Feb 16, 2012 6:52 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidHey Y'all -

    Riddler is VERY pro-outsourcing so I wouldn't expect an honest discussion from him about how trade policy effected the auto industry.


    You're right - I am very much pro outsourcing (just as I am in technology) because it's quite similar to Clayton Christensen's idea of disruptive innovation. The only one being dishonest are those like you who seemingly believe that countries should tie themselves to industries and firms irrespective of demand and needs of markets - who are surprisingly also made up of people.

    I'm just as guilty at bandying about words like markets when markets are just made up of people - largely Americans who choose to buy goods that meet their needs and not those of a given firm's employee's unions. When pensions negotiated at a time when the demographics were favorable became the poison that has killed the domestic automakers, those like you advocated regulation, protectionism and bailouts because to let them fail would mean accountability for past mistakes.


    And, again, you argue against points no one has made in a discussion that is not being had.

    But, I'll say this. If you think the working poor would not prefer to shop somewhere besides Walmart, you're crazy. Walmart (and other big box stores) became necessary to maintain the semblance of a middle class lifestyle because jobs were shipped overseas. Americans do not want cheap crap made elsewhere but that's all they've been able to afford.

    And, I'll be interested to know when Clayton's feelings are when his job has been off-shored and he realizes that Target is too expensive for his newfound poverty. icon_rolleyes.gif


    And yet, that's where they go to shop. The irony is that you claim that I have argued points no one has made and yet you bring up Walmart. In fact for all your derision, Walmart has had a significant impact on the standard of living everywhere they've gone while many retailers continue to thrive and survive. In fact, most retailing has bifurcated such that stores no longer try to be all things to all people. That you find the choice offensive speaks more to you than my arguments.


    That's where they are forced to shop, particularly in rural and suburban areas where Walmart has forced out the majority of locally owned stores by underselling them.

    Where do you shop? icon_rolleyes.gif


    In the US? I generally shop at Amazon. As for being forced to shop at these places in rural and suburban areas? You talk as if Walmart went out and actively shut down these uncompetitive businesses when the reality is quite different:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_162-46240103/the-myth-of-the-walmart-effect/

    Everybody knows that when Walmart comes in, local small businesses get wiped out. But as is often the case, everybody is wrong.

    Recent research shows that while some small businesses do suffer when the Bentonville behemoth builds nearby, others prosper. And when you dig into it, you find that it may not be Walmart that is hurting small retailers and small communities. It may be that they're hurting themselves, by blindly accepting the what-everybody-knows myth of the Walmart effect.


    After all Christian - apparently *you* don;'t need facts, all you need apparently are anecdotes that you claim as fact.


    That article in no way disagrees with the statement the Walmart puts local owned stores out of business. In fact, it doesn't dispute the Walmart effect at all and further points to the fact that big box stores prevent local entrepreneurs from starting up new businesses.
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    Feb 16, 2012 8:35 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidHey Y'all -

    Riddler is VERY pro-outsourcing so I wouldn't expect an honest discussion from him about how trade policy effected the auto industry.


    You're right - I am very much pro outsourcing (just as I am in technology) because it's quite similar to Clayton Christensen's idea of disruptive innovation. The only one being dishonest are those like you who seemingly believe that countries should tie themselves to industries and firms irrespective of demand and needs of markets - who are surprisingly also made up of people.

    I'm just as guilty at bandying about words like markets when markets are just made up of people - largely Americans who choose to buy goods that meet their needs and not those of a given firm's employee's unions. When pensions negotiated at a time when the demographics were favorable became the poison that has killed the domestic automakers, those like you advocated regulation, protectionism and bailouts because to let them fail would mean accountability for past mistakes.


    And, again, you argue against points no one has made in a discussion that is not being had.

    But, I'll say this. If you think the working poor would not prefer to shop somewhere besides Walmart, you're crazy. Walmart (and other big box stores) became necessary to maintain the semblance of a middle class lifestyle because jobs were shipped overseas. Americans do not want cheap crap made elsewhere but that's all they've been able to afford.

    And, I'll be interested to know when Clayton's feelings are when his job has been off-shored and he realizes that Target is too expensive for his newfound poverty. icon_rolleyes.gif


    And yet, that's where they go to shop. The irony is that you claim that I have argued points no one has made and yet you bring up Walmart. In fact for all your derision, Walmart has had a significant impact on the standard of living everywhere they've gone while many retailers continue to thrive and survive. In fact, most retailing has bifurcated such that stores no longer try to be all things to all people. That you find the choice offensive speaks more to you than my arguments.


    That's where they are forced to shop, particularly in rural and suburban areas where Walmart has forced out the majority of locally owned stores by underselling them.

    Where do you shop? icon_rolleyes.gif


    In the US? I generally shop at Amazon. As for being forced to shop at these places in rural and suburban areas? You talk as if Walmart went out and actively shut down these uncompetitive businesses when the reality is quite different:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_162-46240103/the-myth-of-the-walmart-effect/

    Everybody knows that when Walmart comes in, local small businesses get wiped out. But as is often the case, everybody is wrong.

    Recent research shows that while some small businesses do suffer when the Bentonville behemoth builds nearby, others prosper. And when you dig into it, you find that it may not be Walmart that is hurting small retailers and small communities. It may be that they're hurting themselves, by blindly accepting the what-everybody-knows myth of the Walmart effect.


    After all Christian - apparently *you* don;'t need facts, all you need apparently are anecdotes that you claim as fact.


    That article in no way disagrees with the statement the Walmart puts local owned stores out of business. In fact, it doesn't dispute the Walmart effect at all and further points to the fact that big box stores prevent local entrepreneurs from starting up new businesses.


    Ah so you're just lamenting the fact that businesses face competition and in the brutal world of competition, yes, some businesses fail if they aren't the best at meeting the needs of customers - much like Detroit.
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    Feb 17, 2012 12:25 AM GMT
    riddler78 said
    beneful1 said
    riddler78 saidOutsourcing was not specific to Detroit - not to mention the fact that corruption is pretty common when there are entrenched politicians/political parties who believe in spending/regulating for the greater good (New Orleans, Chicago, etc) for the simple reason that without the spending/regulating it's not easy to hide the corruption. Further, it's the people of Detroit who not only voted for these initiatives but these corrupt politicians over and over again.

    Let's not forget how dramatic this fall was: "In 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in America on a per capita income basis. Today, the Census Bureau reports that it is the nation's 2nd poorest major city, just "edging out" Cleveland."

    Counter arguments made here been unconvincing at best.


    I believe JPtheBITCH summed it up quite accurately. After the 60's race riots the city tax base was decimated. IIRC there was even a measure put forth in the 70's that city employees, maybe it was just the police not sure, had to actually be Detroit citizens,, they were all fleeing the city as well. Not sure if that passed. Many manufacturing businesses didn't just up and flee afterthe riots,, they were still there chugging along with the same employees only now those employees were commuting in from the suburbs. It was outsourcing that killed those businesses like it has everywhere else.


    Except outsourcing hasn't killed jobs like everywhere else. Detroit is one of the worst performers in the US but it started out as one of the best. This wasn't a fast or rapid decline - it happened gradually with businesses and people moving away - but this is not the same experience as other cities. In the decline of an industry, greater flexibility allows for new businesses to be created and to thrive.


    What do you mean outsourcing hasn't killed jobs like everywhere else?

    And it was a fast and rapid decline,, very fast compared to probably any other city. It did not happen "gradually" After the riots people packed up and moved to the suburbs as fast as they could and it was only a matter of between 5 -10 years and they were all gone.. that is fast in the big scheme of things!! And all the while between those 5-10 years the tax base was withering
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    Feb 17, 2012 3:13 PM GMT


    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2185540
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 18, 2012 12:25 AM GMT
    beneful1 said
    riddler78 said
    beneful1 said
    riddler78 saidOutsourcing was not specific to Detroit - not to mention the fact that corruption is pretty common when there are entrenched politicians/political parties who believe in spending/regulating for the greater good (New Orleans, Chicago, etc) for the simple reason that without the spending/regulating it's not easy to hide the corruption. Further, it's the people of Detroit who not only voted for these initiatives but these corrupt politicians over and over again.

    Let's not forget how dramatic this fall was: "In 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in America on a per capita income basis. Today, the Census Bureau reports that it is the nation's 2nd poorest major city, just "edging out" Cleveland."

    Counter arguments made here been unconvincing at best.


    I believe JPtheBITCH summed it up quite accurately. After the 60's race riots the city tax base was decimated. IIRC there was even a measure put forth in the 70's that city employees, maybe it was just the police not sure, had to actually be Detroit citizens,, they were all fleeing the city as well. Not sure if that passed. Many manufacturing businesses didn't just up and flee afterthe riots,, they were still there chugging along with the same employees only now those employees were commuting in from the suburbs. It was outsourcing that killed those businesses like it has everywhere else.


    Except outsourcing hasn't killed jobs like everywhere else. Detroit is one of the worst performers in the US but it started out as one of the best. This wasn't a fast or rapid decline - it happened gradually with businesses and people moving away - but this is not the same experience as other cities. In the decline of an industry, greater flexibility allows for new businesses to be created and to thrive.


    What do you mean outsourcing hasn't killed jobs like everywhere else?

    And it was a fast and rapid decline,, very fast compared to probably any other city. It did not happen "gradually" After the riots people packed up and moved to the suburbs as fast as they could and it was only a matter of between 5 -10 years and they were all gone.. that is fast in the big scheme of things!! And all the while between those 5-10 years the tax base was withering


    A lot of the outsourcing jobs would have been gone anyway because of automation/efficiency. In other cities though, other industries grew and developed. Detroit squandered its advantages in people and wealth.
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    Feb 18, 2012 12:26 AM GMT
    meninlove said

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2185540


    Not as relevant or even true considering that during the last year, there were a lot of major economic/budget reforms implemented by the Governor who was opposed every step of the way.
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    Feb 18, 2012 1:48 AM GMT
    JPtheBITCH said
    meninlove said

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2185540

    Don't bother, Doug. Riddler knows more about the USA than you do. He also knows more about it than anyone who lives here. He knows more about my hometown. Detroit. than I ever did. He also knows more about British Columbia than you do. As a matter of fact, it's likely that at this exact moment he knows more about what's inside your refrigerator than you do. No, don't bother checking, because he's right and you're wrong anyway.


    Yep well, probably just more than you do apparently - I don't blame you of course, it's probably more a function of your wishful thinking and well, you're just a bit slow.
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    Feb 18, 2012 2:23 AM GMT
    Also relevant - obliterating arguments that the problem has been outsourcing. Rage against the robots?

    http://www.crossingwallstreet.com/archives/2012/02/we-dont-make-anything-anymore-really.html

    One of the biggest misconceptions about the U.S. economy is that we “don’t make anything anymore.” Not only is it not true, it’s very not true. The fact is that the United States is a manufacturing superpower. In the last 25 years, industrial production is up by more than 70%.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 18, 2012 2:33 AM GMT
    JPtheBITCH said
    riddler78 said
    JPtheBITCH said
    meninlove said

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2185540

    Don't bother, Doug. Riddler knows more about the USA than you do. He also knows more about it than anyone who lives here. He knows more about my hometown. Detroit. than I ever did. He also knows more about British Columbia than you do. As a matter of fact, it's likely that at this exact moment he knows more about what's inside your refrigerator than you do. No, don't bother checking, because he's right and you're wrong anyway.


    Yep well, probably just more than you do apparently - I don't blame you of course, it's probably more a function of your wishful thinking and well, you're just a bit slow.

    I really shouldn't waste irony on a slow-witted thing like yourself.


    and yet you do icon_rolleyes.gif (bump). I can only imagine the fact you consistently get debunked must be embarrassing.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 18, 2012 6:32 AM GMT
    JPtheBITCH said
    riddler78 said
    JPtheBITCH said
    riddler78 said
    JPtheBITCH said
    meninlove said

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2185540

    Don't bother, Doug. Riddler knows more about the USA than you do. He also knows more about it than anyone who lives here. He knows more about my hometown. Detroit. than I ever did. He also knows more about British Columbia than you do. As a matter of fact, it's likely that at this exact moment he knows more about what's inside your refrigerator than you do. No, don't bother checking, because he's right and you're wrong anyway.


    Yep well, probably just more than you do apparently - I don't blame you of course, it's probably more a function of your wishful thinking and well, you're just a bit slow.

    I really shouldn't waste irony on a slow-witted thing like yourself.


    and yet you do icon_rolleyes.gif (bump). I can only imagine the fact you consistently get debunked must be embarrassing.

    You don't seem to understand who is considered the joke around here.


    Hint: get a mirror.


    Lol - when/if age finally decides to confer you wisdom, you'll recognize that's advice you should have taken long ago icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 18, 2012 6:47 AM GMT
    JPtheBITCH said
    riddler78 said
    Lol - when/if age finally decides to confer you wisdom, you'll recognize that's advice you should have taken long ago icon_wink.gif

    You are so easy to bait. It almost isn't any fun.


    Well so long as I'm enjoying it, I'm more than ok with it icon_wink.gif - it's childsplay picking away at your fast and loose interpretation of the facts let alone lies. What a sad little curmudgeon you are icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 18, 2012 6:52 AM GMT
    JPtheBITCH said
    riddler78 said
    JPtheBITCH said
    riddler78 said
    Lol - when/if age finally decides to confer you wisdom, you'll recognize that's advice you should have taken long ago icon_wink.gif

    You are so easy to bait. It almost isn't any fun.


    Well so long as I'm enjoying it, I'm more than ok with it icon_wink.gif - it's childsplay picking away at your fast and loose interpretation of the facts let alone lies. What a sad little curmudgeon you are icon_lol.gif

    Like I said.


    Sorry, I probably wasn't listening. You must get tired of people telling you that icon_wink.gif