Struggling Greeks losing belief in the state

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 25, 2012 10:45 PM GMT
    People had high expectations of the welfare state and the welfare state is now failing them as it goes broke. It's a theme that is being echoed through Europe.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17067104

    The people who come here are trapped amid advancing penury and the retreating state. The minimum wage has just been slashed by 20% The government has just voted to cut the medicines bill by a further 1bn euros. What is going to happen to the health service if this goes on?

    Poverty has visibly increased on the streets of Athens since the crisis began
    "I think it will collapse," says Dr Kanakis. "Very soon. Because as the cuts continue, even very sick people can't get treatment; even people with social security. My mother has a pension of 500 euros and this month had to pay the special austerity tax, collected through her electricity bill. It was 350 euros. She's 80 years old. So tell me how she can survive?"

    What is clear, once you get away from the incessant shouting on Greek TV, and the flash-bang battles between the anarchists and the police, is that this rapid breakdown of certainty is having a big, but immeasurable, effect on people's political expectations.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2012 12:52 AM GMT
    That's what happens when you put the fascists in charge.
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    Feb 26, 2012 2:59 AM GMT
    Christian73 saidThat's what happens when you put the fascists in charge.


    *socialists would be the accurate vernacular. It's sort of funny how you simply love to rewrite history as your liberal dreams die at the hands of reality.
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    Feb 26, 2012 3:57 AM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidThat's what happens when you put the fascists in charge.


    *socialists would be the accurate vernacular. It's sort of funny how you simply love to rewrite history as your liberal dreams die at the hands of reality.


    No. The fascists are in charge of Greece now. Have been for a while. The previous fascist regime is also responsible for much of the Greek debt. So, I'm not the one rewriting history.
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    Feb 26, 2012 4:10 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidThat's what happens when you put the fascists in charge.


    *socialists would be the accurate vernacular. It's sort of funny how you simply love to rewrite history as your liberal dreams die at the hands of reality.


    No. The fascists are in charge of Greece now. Have been for a while. The previous fascist regime is also responsible for much of the Greek debt. So, I'm not the one rewriting history.


    Except they aren't and those who spent what riches Greece had did so in service to expand the largesse of government - just as you advocate. Oh what tales you weave Christian...
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    Feb 26, 2012 5:02 AM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidThat's what happens when you put the fascists in charge.


    *socialists would be the accurate vernacular. It's sort of funny how you simply love to rewrite history as your liberal dreams die at the hands of reality.


    No. The fascists are in charge of Greece now. Have been for a while. The previous fascist regime is also responsible for much of the Greek debt. So, I'm not the one rewriting history.


    Except they aren't and those who spent what riches Greece had did so in service to expand the largesse of government - just as you advocate. Oh what tales you weave Christian...


    No. Deficits were run to stitch Greek society back together after democracy was restored following more than a decade of fascist rule. And, oddly, many of the banks who helped the more recent administrations hide their debt, are now calling for austerity. I'm surprised Mitt Romney hasn't tried to buy Greece and break it up into smaller, less bankrupted parts.
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    Feb 26, 2012 7:52 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidThat's what happens when you put the fascists in charge.


    *socialists would be the accurate vernacular. It's sort of funny how you simply love to rewrite history as your liberal dreams die at the hands of reality.


    No. The fascists are in charge of Greece now. Have been for a while. The previous fascist regime is also responsible for much of the Greek debt. So, I'm not the one rewriting history.


    Except they aren't and those who spent what riches Greece had did so in service to expand the largesse of government - just as you advocate. Oh what tales you weave Christian...


    No. Deficits were run to stitch Greek society back together after democracy was restored following more than a decade of fascist rule. And, oddly, many of the banks who helped the more recent administrations hide their debt, are now calling for austerity. I'm surprised Mitt Romney hasn't tried to buy Greece and break it up into smaller, less bankrupted parts.


    Once again you spout your endless fantasies - despite the fact that spending for instance in this year alone is 150% more than tax revenues. The solution for you always seems to be to spend more money and to label those who don't lend it and don't spend it as "sociopaths". It's as farcical as it is untrue.

    Reality must be oh so bitter for you.
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    Feb 26, 2012 10:04 AM GMT
    riddler78 saidOnce again you spout your endless fantasies - despite the fact that spending for instance in this year alone is 150% more than tax revenues. The solution for you always seems to be to spend more money and to label those who don't lend it and don't spend it as "sociopaths". It's as farcical as it is untrue.

    Reality must be oh so bitter for you.

    The left is desperate to twist the facts because the obvious examples in several European countries show the utter failure of their ideology and everything they stand for. They are bitter and angry, and their venom is displayed in all their high-fives here. It is only their death rattle. According to Gallup, only 21% of Americans identify themselves as liberal, and I would guess less than half of that group is as radical and extreme as the few vocal ones here.
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    Feb 26, 2012 7:01 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    riddler78 saidOnce again you spout your endless fantasies - despite the fact that spending for instance in this year alone is 150% more than tax revenues. The solution for you always seems to be to spend more money and to label those who don't lend it and don't spend it as "sociopaths". It's as farcical as it is untrue.

    Reality must be oh so bitter for you.

    The left is desperate to twist the facts because the obvious examples in several European countries show the utter failure of their ideology and everything they stand for. They are bitter and angry, and their venom is displayed in all their high-fives here. It is only their death rattle. According to Gallup, only 21% of Americans identify themselves as liberal, and I would guess less than half of that group is as radical and extreme as the few vocal ones here.


    Lol - it's actually kind of funny how show their desperation in force here ;)
  • conservativej...

    Posts: 2465

    Feb 26, 2012 7:36 PM GMT
    I tell you somethiong that is amazing. This post shows 9 replies. I however have blocked our resident Socialist Chistian73. Amazingly the replies appear on one page with Christian blocked.

    If Christian is the best Liberals have to offer, they are in deep poo-poo.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3283

    Feb 26, 2012 9:50 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 said
    riddler78 said
    Christian73 saidThat's what happens when you put the fascists in charge.


    *socialists would be the accurate vernacular. It's sort of funny how you simply love to rewrite history as your liberal dreams die at the hands of reality.


    No. The fascists are in charge of Greece now. Have been for a while. The previous fascist regime is also responsible for much of the Greek debt. So, I'm not the one rewriting history.


    Except they aren't and those who spent what riches Greece had did so in service to expand the largesse of government - just as you advocate. Oh what tales you weave Christian...


    No. Deficits were run to stitch Greek society back together after democracy was restored following more than a decade of fascist rule. And, oddly, many of the banks who helped the more recent administrations hide their debt, are now calling for austerity. I'm surprised Mitt Romney hasn't tried to buy Greece and break it up into smaller, less bankrupted parts.


    Once again you spout your endless fantasies - despite the fact that spending for instance in this year alone is 150% more than tax revenues. The solution for you always seems to be to spend more money and to label those who don't lend it and don't spend it as "sociopaths". It's as farcical as it is untrue.

    Reality must be oh so bitter for you.


    The Greeks are in debt because the prosperous ones left over the last 75 years. The lazy ones that remain ,retire at 55 and collect a pension. The country has no industry at all. The shipping industry long left Greece because of heavy unionization and a lazy workforce.

    Fascism has nothing to do with it. Greece is full of strong unions.

    When did any Fascist state permit unionization EVER?

    Fascists permit general strikes. There has been yearly labor strikes since the 50's in Greece.
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    Feb 26, 2012 9:57 PM GMT
    musclmed, "When did any Fascist state permit unionization EVER? "

    ...and not one poster on this topic would permit unions either, except for Christian. Interesting, eh?

    As for Greece, we have two friends living and working there, hugely successful, who travel around the globe each year and also drop in to see us.

    Are they in a union? Nope.

  • musclmed

    Posts: 3283

    Feb 26, 2012 10:05 PM GMT
    meninlove said musclmed, "When did any Fascist state permit unionization EVER? "

    ...and not one poster on this topic would permit unions either, except for Christian. Interesting, eh?

    As for Greece, we have two friends living and working there, hugely successful, who travel around the globe each year and also drop in to see us.

    Are they in a union? Nope.



    Yes an I have family there as well that are successful.

    I do not think it bolsters the point that someone Greece's problems had to do with some dream of Fascism.

    Simply barely anyone pays taxes, and they have a huge class of public workers that retire early and strike often. To blame it on Fascism is a funny talking point that works on someone who doesn't know about what happens in Greece.

    When in history has a Fascist ruler permitted general strikes to shut down Airports? truck delivery's and grocery stores?

    Yes, it all makes COMPLETE sense.icon_smile.gif

    There are divisions withing local and federal goverment that make any reform impossible.

    I would say it has little to do with Conservative / Liberal politics, its just good old fashion political patronage that runs Greece, and its bloated ineffective Public Sector. You have to bribe people to get anything done. The people do not trust the federal government . They under/dont pay taxes

    To say its because of Fascism is just a bunk. And has no application to the Greek economy cash flow problem.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2012 10:19 PM GMT
    musclmed said

    When in history has a Fascist ruler permitted general strikes to shut down Airports?
    Never.. Reagan didnt let it happen!
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    Feb 26, 2012 10:24 PM GMT
    musclmed said, "You have to bribe people to get anything done. The people do not trust the federal government . They under/dont pay taxes"

    You at least are talking the straight goods. The country is generally rather corrupt, no matter the gov't in charge.

    "I would say it has little to do with Conservative / Liberal politics, its just good old fashion political patronage that runs Greece, and its bloated ineffective Public Sector"

    This I mostly agree with as well, from what our friends have told us.

    -Doug .