Zimbabwe - Gay rights thrown out of constitution

  • metta

    Posts: 39167

    Feb 27, 2012 5:31 AM GMT
    Zimbabwe - Gay rights thrown out of constitution


    http://www.zimeye.org/?p=47433
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:32 AM GMT
    Another reason my partner would never return to live in his homeland!
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:33 AM GMT
    A man.. another issue ugh
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    Feb 27, 2012 5:20 PM GMT
    Is anyone really surprised? It's Africa, after all. The whole continent is a huge mess.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 27, 2012 5:24 PM GMT
    TahoeAthlete saidIs anyone really surprised? It's Africa, after all. The whole continent is a huge mess.


    Then do something to fix it, instead of commenting on the "mess" from Lake Tahoe.
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    Feb 27, 2012 5:26 PM GMT
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete saidIs anyone really surprised? It's Africa, after all. The whole continent is a huge mess.


    Then do something to fix it, instead of commenting on the "mess" from Lake Tahoe.


    It's not my problem to fix it. Those kind of changes have to come from within. Africa is the mess that it is because of western meddling.
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    Feb 27, 2012 5:30 PM GMT
    Mugabe has been abusing various groups for his entire rule. He's brutalized the remaining farmers, so there was a threat of mass starvation. He's using gays as another scapegoat for his ruinous economic policies. He's more than 80, it's time for him to go.
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    Feb 27, 2012 5:34 PM GMT
    swimguychicago saidMugabe has been abusing various groups for his entire rule. He's brutalized the remaining farmers, so there was a threat of mass starvation. He's using gays as another scapegoat for his ruinous economic policies. He's more than 80, it's time for him to go.
    it's quite funny that he has said that the west can go to hell with their ideals....yet he uses the american dollar as their standard currency now.

    it's time that he moved on, he's ruining the country and influencing other moronic politicians in SA. the ANCYL is one of the main followers of his practices. they're trying to nationalise the mines in order to bring wealth to the public...little does the public know is that this won't work
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 27, 2012 5:52 PM GMT
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete saidIs anyone really surprised? It's Africa, after all. The whole continent is a huge mess.


    Then do something to fix it, instead of commenting on the "mess" from Lake Tahoe.


    It's not my problem to fix it. Those kind of changes have to come from within. Africa is the mess that it is because of western meddling.


    ...but you contradict yourself. If it is not your problem to fix it, but you have influence over a large western country, that you said has had a role in messing it up, then you do have some responsibility to fix it. You say that the changes can only come from within, if those forces from outside stop interfering. What have you done to stop the US from interfering?
  • mizu5

    Posts: 2599

    Feb 27, 2012 5:55 PM GMT
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete saidIs anyone really surprised? It's Africa, after all. The whole continent is a huge mess.


    Then do something to fix it, instead of commenting on the "mess" from Lake Tahoe.


    It's not my problem to fix it. Those kind of changes have to come from within. Africa is the mess that it is because of western meddling.


    ...but you contradict yourself. If it is not your problem to fix it, but you have influence over a large western country, that you said has had a role in messing it up, then you do have some responsibility to fix it. You say that the changes can only come from within, if those forces from outside stop interfering. What have you done to stop the US from interfering?
    I don't think our friend here has that much influence over the US. He's not really in a position to change the entire continent of Africa. Also, do you not comment on anything except that in which you intend to partake? You must end up either very quiet or very busy..
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    Feb 27, 2012 5:57 PM GMT
    mizu5 said
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete saidIs anyone really surprised? It's Africa, after all. The whole continent is a huge mess.


    Then do something to fix it, instead of commenting on the "mess" from Lake Tahoe.


    It's not my problem to fix it. Those kind of changes have to come from within. Africa is the mess that it is because of western meddling.


    ...but you contradict yourself. If it is not your problem to fix it, but you have influence over a large western country, that you said has had a role in messing it up, then you do have some responsibility to fix it. You say that the changes can only come from within, if those forces from outside stop interfering. What have you done to stop the US from interfering?
    I don't think our friend here has that much influence over the US. He's not really in a position to change the entire continent of Africa. Also, do you not comment on anything except that in which you intend to partake? You must end up either very quiet or very busy..


    Plus Zimbabwe is a former British colony. The country has been independent from the UK only since 1980. You can't blame Americans on this one!
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:01 PM GMT
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete saidIs anyone really surprised? It's Africa, after all. The whole continent is a huge mess.


    Then do something to fix it, instead of commenting on the "mess" from Lake Tahoe.


    It's not my problem to fix it. Those kind of changes have to come from within. Africa is the mess that it is because of western meddling.


    ...but you contradict yourself. If it is not your problem to fix it, but you have influence over a large western country, that you said has had a role in messing it up, then you do have some responsibility to fix it. You say that the changes can only come from within, if those forces from outside stop interfering. What have you done to stop the US from interfering?


    Give me a break. If you think I contradict myself, you need Logic 101. I have no influence over this large western country. None of us do. We can watch the political theater and push the button in the voting booth, but it doesn't matter. Big business and special interest run this country. I have no power. And neither do you. I can't stop outside forces from interfering in Africa. What a laugh! Seriously, you sound ridiculous.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 27, 2012 6:04 PM GMT
    mizu5 said
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete saidIs anyone really surprised? It's Africa, after all. The whole continent is a huge mess.


    Then do something to fix it, instead of commenting on the "mess" from Lake Tahoe.


    It's not my problem to fix it. Those kind of changes have to come from within. Africa is the mess that it is because of western meddling.


    ...but you contradict yourself. If it is not your problem to fix it, but you have influence over a large western country, that you said has had a role in messing it up, then you do have some responsibility to fix it. You say that the changes can only come from within, if those forces from outside stop interfering. What have you done to stop the US from interfering?
    I don't think our friend here has that much influence over the US. He's not really in a position to change the entire continent of Africa. Also, do you not comment on anything except that in which you intend to partake? You must end up either very quiet or very busy..


    I work in International Development and it greatly offends me when I see people toss whole continents out for "being a mess" and only see the bad in them. South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, all nations bordering Zimbabwe that have had made massive progress in LGBT rights, both politically and socially. I find it shocking that anyone could call all of Africa a mess. Much of the progress in Namibia and Botswana has been made due to westerns not describing Africa as a mess, but as a place that can be talked to worked with, and educated. Americans wrote the bill for Namibia that decriminalized homosexuality there. Americans can make a difference in former African colonies that are not theirs, but they don't make that difference by insulting hundreds of millions of people from the other side of the globe.
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:04 PM GMT
    pocketnico saidPlus Zimbabwe is a former British colony. The country has been independent from the UK only since 1980. You can't blame Americans on this one!


    Good point! The west in general has screwed up Africa, not just America. And it's been going on for 200 years? That's a lot of damage to undo, were that even possible. As I said earlier, change comes from within. No one in the US would appreciate another government, NGOs, etc. meddling in our country and our affairs. We need to solve our own problems, just like the rest of the world needs to solve its problems.
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:08 PM GMT
    DCEric saidI work in International Development and it greatly offends me when I see people through whole continents out for "being a mess" and only see the bad in them. South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, all nations bordering Zimbabwe that have had made massive progress in LGBT rights, both politically and socially. I find it shocking that anyone could call all of Africa a mess. Much of the progress in Namibia and Botswana has been made due to westerns not describing Africa as a mess, but as a place that can be talked to worked with, and educated. Americans wrote the bill for Namibia that decriminalized homosexuality there. Americans can make a difference in former African colonies that are not theirs, but they don't make that difference by insulting hundreds of millions of people from the other side of the globe.


    Dude, chill out. I insulted no one. Are you really going to argue that Africa ISN'T a mess? I'm not criticizing anyone personally. But it's reality. The entire continent has a ton of problems, most of which are due to western meddling over the years. And now you continue the proud tradition. Can you imagine saying "the Chinese wrote the bill for the US that saved the economy"? I mean, if you can go meddle in Africa, why don't we just bring the Chinese over here to fix our problems?
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 27, 2012 6:08 PM GMT
    TahoeAthlete said
    pocketnico saidPlus Zimbabwe is a former British colony. The country has been independent from the UK only since 1980. You can't blame Americans on this one!


    Good point! The west in general has screwed up Africa, not just America. And it's been going on for 200 years? That's a lot of damage to undo, were that even possible. As I said earlier, change comes from within. No one in the US would appreciate another government, NGOs, etc. meddling in our country and our affairs. We need to solve our own problems, just like the rest of the world needs to solve its problems.


    We do not all live in isolation. Where was the computer you are typing on made? You have an influence there. Where were your cloths made? You have changed things there. Where do you give to charity? You have had moved things there.

    Forgive me if I miss quote, but: "Do not think yourself so important, you are not so big, do not think yourself so helpless, you are not so little." ~Golda Mier. A woman born in Detroit who became the third female head of state, in the world.
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:12 PM GMT
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete said
    pocketnico saidPlus Zimbabwe is a former British colony. The country has been independent from the UK only since 1980. You can't blame Americans on this one!


    Good point! The west in general has screwed up Africa, not just America. And it's been going on for 200 years? That's a lot of damage to undo, were that even possible. As I said earlier, change comes from within. No one in the US would appreciate another government, NGOs, etc. meddling in our country and our affairs. We need to solve our own problems, just like the rest of the world needs to solve its problems.


    We do not all live in isolation. Where was the computer you are typing on made? You have an influence there. Where were your cloths made? You have changed things there. Where do you give to charity? You have had moved things there.

    Forgive me if I miss quote, but: "Do not think yourself so important, you are not so big, do not think yourself so helpless, you are not so little." ~Golda Mier. A woman born in Detroit who became the third female head of state, in the world.


    No, we don't live in isolation, but I don't think we have the right - or duty - to tell others how to live. I give to charity in my local community and to several national charities that strive to help people in the US, in my country.
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:13 PM GMT
    DCEric saidForgive me if I miss quote, but: "Do not think yourself so important, you are not so big, do not think yourself so helpless, you are not so little." ~Golda Mier. A woman born in Detroit who became the third female head of state, in the world.


    Golda Meir was born in Kyiv, Ukraine (back then the Russian Empire) and later moved to Pinsk, Belarus with her mother. She didn't come to the US (Milwaukee for that matter) until later in her childhood.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 27, 2012 6:13 PM GMT
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric saidI work in International Development and it greatly offends me when I see people through whole continents out for "being a mess" and only see the bad in them. South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, all nations bordering Zimbabwe that have had made massive progress in LGBT rights, both politically and socially. I find it shocking that anyone could call all of Africa a mess. Much of the progress in Namibia and Botswana has been made due to westerns not describing Africa as a mess, but as a place that can be talked to worked with, and educated. Americans wrote the bill for Namibia that decriminalized homosexuality there. Americans can make a difference in former African colonies that are not theirs, but they don't make that difference by insulting hundreds of millions of people from the other side of the globe.


    Dude, chill out. I insulted no one. Are you really going to argue that Africa ISN'T a mess? I'm not criticizing anyone personally. But it's reality. The entire continent has a ton of problems, most of which are due to western meddling over the years. And now you continue the proud tradition. Can you imagine saying "the Chinese wrote the bill for the US that saved the economy"? I mean, if you can go meddle in Africa, why don't we just bring the Chinese over here to fix our problems?


    It's reality only if you see the continent as needing to achieve US living standards (which are rejected by many African scholars, though not all) and if you overlook the function democracies there that have all but ended famine, and extreme poverty for 2/3 the continents population.

    We do bring the Chinese here to fix our problems. Our country now runs on Chinese cash.

    I have not continued the problem. I help where help is asked for. In the case above, the government of Namibia reached out to the United States, who had had experience decriminalizing homosexuality, and they wanted to make sure they did it in a way that did not cause unintended consequences. They asked for a prepared bill, and got one free of charge from a US based NGO.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 27, 2012 6:13 PM GMT
    pocketnico said
    DCEric saidForgive me if I miss quote, but: "Do not think yourself so important, you are not so big, do not think yourself so helpless, you are not so little." ~Golda Mier. A woman born in Detroit who became the third female head of state, in the world.


    Golda Meir was born in Kyiv, Ukraine and later moved to Pink, Belarus with her mother. She didn't come to the US (Milwaukee for that matter) until later in her childhood.


    Thanks. Sorry, I knew I was massively screwing that up. What makes it worse is that I am a Jew.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 27, 2012 6:15 PM GMT
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete said
    pocketnico saidPlus Zimbabwe is a former British colony. The country has been independent from the UK only since 1980. You can't blame Americans on this one!


    Good point! The west in general has screwed up Africa, not just America. And it's been going on for 200 years? That's a lot of damage to undo, were that even possible. As I said earlier, change comes from within. No one in the US would appreciate another government, NGOs, etc. meddling in our country and our affairs. We need to solve our own problems, just like the rest of the world needs to solve its problems.


    We do not all live in isolation. Where was the computer you are typing on made? You have an influence there. Where were your cloths made? You have changed things there. Where do you give to charity? You have had moved things there.

    Forgive me if I miss quote, but: "Do not think yourself so important, you are not so big, do not think yourself so helpless, you are not so little." ~Golda Mier. A woman born in Detroit who became the third female head of state, in the world.


    No, we don't live in isolation, but I don't think we have the right - or duty - to tell others how to live. I give to charity in my local community and to several national charities that strive to help people in the US, in my country.


    But we are constantly asked for help, including by several LGBT organizations in Zimbabwe. Do we turn our back to them simply because the majority of Zimbabweans do not want us to help those organizations? Where do you draw the line?
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:18 PM GMT
    DCEric saidWe do bring the Chinese here to fix our problems. Our country now runs on Chinese cash.


    That's a specious argument. We borrow money from China and we manufacturer goods there. We don't tell them - at least not directly - how to run their country. Nor do they tell us how to run our country. We have a trade relationship (granted, a rather twisted one). That a HUGE difference from having a Chinese NGO write law for us.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 27, 2012 6:19 PM GMT
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric saidWe do bring the Chinese here to fix our problems. Our country now runs on Chinese cash.


    That's a specious argument. We borrow money from China and we manufacturer goods there. We don't tell them - at least not directly - how to run their country. Nor do they tell us how to run our country. We have a trade relationship (granted, a rather twisted one). That a HUGE difference from having a Chinese NGO write law for us.


    You don't think that fiscal relationship has an influence on legislation in both countries? I think it has a massive impact on legislation here, and I suspect in China as well.
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:20 PM GMT
    DCEric saidBut we are constantly asked for help, including by several LGBT organizations in Zimbabwe. Do we turn our back to them simply because the majority of Zimbabweans do not want us to help those organizations? Where do you draw the line?


    No, you don't turn your back. But the reality is, not much is going to change there until most of their government is six feet under. And the people need to take care of that.
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    Feb 27, 2012 6:21 PM GMT
    DCEric said
    TahoeAthlete said
    DCEric saidWe do bring the Chinese here to fix our problems. Our country now runs on Chinese cash.


    That's a specious argument. We borrow money from China and we manufacturer goods there. We don't tell them - at least not directly - how to run their country. Nor do they tell us how to run our country. We have a trade relationship (granted, a rather twisted one). That a HUGE difference from having a Chinese NGO write law for us.


    You don't think that fiscal relationship has an influence on legislation in both countries?


    Of course it does, but we're more or less dealing as equals. And, again, there's a big difference between influencing legislation and stepping in as the great white savior and writing law.