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swimbikerun saidThey just moved in down the block from me. I was able to withstand a whole thirty minutes of the sermon before I had to leave.

swimbikerun saidThey just moved in down the block from me. I was able to withstand a whole thirty minutes of the sermon before I had to leave.

As a gay man, I see the need for community but as an atheist I've a lot of problems with organized religion.

MikePhil saidAre you saying you were at church today
There is hope for you yet

swimbikerun saidThey just moved in down the block from me. I was able to withstand a whole thirty minutes of the sermon before I had to leave.

As a gay man, I see the need for community but as an atheist I've a lot of problems with organized religion.

jprichva said[quote][cite]MikePhil said[/cite]Are you saying you were at church today
There is hope for you yet

MikePhil saidJprichva, that is not true.
Swimbikerun, and I have had some email exchanges about my replies to him. Over all the emails have been very friendly, and honestly my reply to the this one, was me just messing with him, and I believe he knows that.
I have mocked those that have mocked me, that is true. I have never mocked anyone who has not mocked me.
If Swim was offended by my comment, then I apologies.
Mike

swimbikerun saidThey just moved in down the block from me. I was able to withstand a whole thirty minutes of the sermon before I had to leave.

As a gay man, I see the need for community but as an atheist I've a lot of problems with organized religion.

jprichva said[quote][cite]MikePhil said[/cite]Jprichva, that is not true.
Swimbikerun, and I have had some email exchanges about my replies to him. Over all the emails have been very friendly, and honestly my reply to the this one, was me just messing with him, and I believe he knows that.
I have mocked those that have mocked me, that is true. I have never mocked anyone who has not mocked me.
If Swim was offended by my comment, then I apologies.
Mike

swimbikerun saidThey just moved in down the block from me. I was able to withstand a whole thirty minutes of the sermon before I had to leave.

As a gay man, I see the need for community but as an atheist I've a lot of problems with organized religion.

USMmmm said... I'm more interested in a particular congregation's doctrine; what do they believe and teach and are those beliefs and teachings compatible with my own. For me, "Gay" doesn't need to be a characteristic of my worship.

USMmmm saidI'm more interested in a particular congregation's doctrine; what do they believe and teach and are those beliefs and teachings compatible with my own. For me, "Gay" doesn't need to be a characteristic of my worship.

swimbikerun saidActiveAndFit I went because they are at the end of the block, only a short walk away from where I live.

I came out as an atheist and then immediately demanded to see the reverend. But seriously, I thought I could stand at least it just a bit so I could get to know people.

I really couldn't stand it. I'd rather hear how we should put our faith in ourselves and other human beings rather than some imaginary being.

swimbikerun saidThey just moved in down the block from me. I was able to withstand a whole thirty minutes of the sermon before I had to leave.

As a gay man, I see the need for community but as an atheist I've a lot of problems with organized religion.

swimbikerun saidActiveAndFit my demanding to the see the reverend was said as a joke, and the people at the church all laughed. Laughed at me I tell you!

atlnvmasc said[quote][cite]swimbikerun said[/cite]They just moved in down the block from me. I was able to withstand a whole thirty minutes of the sermon before I had to leave.

ActiveAndFit saidWell Well, hopefully it didn't turn out like this

swimbikerun saidIt's true MikePhil and I are email buds with benefits. He likes to stuff my inbox.

jprichva said[quote][cite]MikePhil said[/cite]Jprichva, that is not true.
Swimbikerun, and I have had some email exchanges about my replies to him. Over all the emails have been very friendly, and honestly my reply to the this one, was me just messing with him, and I believe he knows that.
I have mocked those that have mocked me, that is true. I have never mocked anyone who has not mocked me.
If Swim was offended by my comment, then I apologies.
Mike

MikePhil said

I think it is you that likes to stuff mine

BTW, I'm impressed that you went to check it out, even if you were not impressed by it

Mike

swimbikerun said
Oh, and by the way, no one could speak with me about Ezekiel. No biblethumper I've met can.

ebl333 saidI've been to several gay churches, namely, MCC. and the first time i was there, the usher(a guy) came to us wearing bunny slippers, and pink see thru shawl with feather trims. I think he's test how open minded the visitors are.
then the sermon is all about self affirming, love, and freedom. I, who believe in God, would obviously like to hear about God. the whole service is in the name of worshiping God, but worshiping men.
another time, they invited a famous speaker, who spend all his time talking evolution during service. and how laughable people don't incorporate views of evolution into bible. He got standing ovation, and gay audiences ate it up. But I really miss God in the church.

Sedative saidPurely theoretical I assure you. He could be a grumpy old guy with control issues for all I care.

ebl333 said[quote]

oh you care, just about all the religious topics you leave your marks and air your hate of it. The thing is, you lump all good and bad of religion together, and discount them both. It's not fair, and you wont' want it to be applied on atheism either.

For every atheistic philanthropy (not that i know any), there must be 100 religious inspired ones to match. If all you know about God is a hateful one, for sure atheism has not enlighten you to take your black shawl off.

ebl333I, who believe in God, would obviously like to hear about God. the whole service is in the name of worshiping God, but worshiping men.

Sedative said
Why? Have you seen your God?What makes you qualified to make the distinction?

ebl333 said

Sedative said
Why? Have you seen your God?What makes you qualified to make the distinction?

what qualify you the ability to distinct anything? have you seen your own brain?

ebl333 said Hence I do believe that many turn away from God because they have not see the good in him, but see bad done in the name of him.

swimbikerun said
As far as "atheistic philanthropy" you're mixing an empirical worldview and a humanist goals. There are plenty of humanist philanthropic organizations while atheism tends to focus more on discussions of supernatural beings.

Such "philanthropy" practiced by churches often involves "helping" those who are weak, then subjecting them to believe in a supernatural being whose representatives on earth are just coincidentally those who are doing the "philanthropy". What need would atheists have for taking advantage of people in such a fashion?

jprichva said

ebl333 said Hence I do believe that many turn away from God because they have not see the good in him, but see bad done in the name of him.

See, you religious folk can never grasp the OTHER alternative: that people don't believe in God because the whole concept is flatly absurd. And it has nothing to do with the "goodness" or "badness" of the concept.

This is like debating whether the Klingons were really pure evil or maybe there was some good in them.

ebl333 said

The point is which worldview inspire more goods?
2ndly, though religious work are more noticeable, it's individual believers who does small goods that i'm talking about.

swimbikerun said

ebl333 said

The point is which worldview inspire more goods?
2ndly, though religious work are more noticeable, it's individual believers who does small goods that i'm talking about.

"More goods" is a completely relativistic term.
I don't understand your second point though in both you seem to imply that religion inspires people to kiss god's ass, doing "good" things. Isn't it better to do "good" deeds of your own accord than be a kiss-up to an imaginary being?

swimbikerun saidThey just moved in down the block from me. I was able to withstand a whole thirty minutes of the sermon before I had to leave.

As a gay man, I see the need for community but as an atheist I've a lot of problems with organized religion.

realifedad said We have all read the saying that "MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL" Right !!! Well I've about come to the conclusion that the word "RELIGION" should replace the word "MONEY". Tell you why I think this way, historicly its pretty clear that in just about every major war "RELIGION" was mixed in there somewhere. The hate of some sect, or religious belief system seems always to be part of the war. Religious people to a large degree are the most intolerant people of others life styles, or beliefs if different from their local religion, it just falls under "GROUP THINK", and religion is used for control of the masses. Its usually religious groups who are followers, and tend to fall for superstitions and will more blindly follow the likes of leaders like bush who "CLAIM" to be a follower of "GOD". Those people who think and study things out for themselves don't seem to follow any religious dogma. Religions promote blind "FAITH" as a virtue, when in actuality blind "FAITH" is dangerous for anyone in real life, and it seems the "FAITHFULL" are the ones who will just buy anything their "lEADERS" tell them. So to me organized religion is just another group trying to get more people in their particular club, and they foster their own growth by teaching that "you must believe as we do if you want to go to "HEAVEN"", this will scare the "FAITHFULL" followers into their club. Its all a big hoax, IS IT NOT???????????????????? So really !!! which causes more trouble in the world MONEY or Religion??????????????????????

Pattison saidEven as an atheist. You have the right to walk into a church.

Even if you are an atheist you have the right to a view on religions. certainly if they involve them self in your country's politics!

We are all born atheists, as we are not born religious. This is learnt behaviour. Normally forced onto children by their parents. Some of these child when they grow don't grow the balls to break away from the bonds of religion for fear of rejection.

Yet religion if they are homosexuals, rejects them.

Right at this time. we Aussies/Australians, have the evil pope down here in Oz, a protestant land, to hold a world youth conference. Pedophiles paradise.

I just hope as a tax payer. None of my taxers will go to finance this, as I am disgusted it is happening in Oz, a protestant country. Yet protestants have always been more tolerant than the micks.

But you have the right to walk into a church. I just hope you did not drink anything!

Sedative said

swimbikerun said

ebl333 said


Indeed. "Good" in this case means "I'm doing this because I don;t want God to send me to hell" kind of good. Not "I'm doing this because it's good".

God doesn't send anyone to hell. I don't believe in hell, at least not the way some do. I do good thing because I like to do good things, and want to do good things. I don't do good thing because I'm scared of what may happen it I don't.

Mike

MikePhil saidSince when was there a quota for the amount of rolling eyes you can post

In my reply to pattision, I posted a lot more rolling eyes than showed up. Have I broken RJ

MikePhil said

God doesn't send anyone to hell. I don't believe in hell, at least not the way some do. I do good thing because I like to do good things, and want to do good things. I don't do good thing because I'm scared of what may happen it I don't.

Mike

Sedative said

MikePhil said

God doesn't send anyone to hell. I don't believe in hell, at least not the way some do. I do good thing because I like to do good things, and want to do good things. I don't do good thing because I'm scared of what may happen it I don't.

Mike

Exactly. Which means one thing: The ability to do TRUE goodness is independent from religion. Anyone can be good, no matter what religion or even if he has a religion at all.

So ebl333's argument that religion inspires more erm.. 'goods' is flat out wrong.

Unless he means 'good' in the sense of filthy rich fat old men donating to christian charities because they don't want to go to hell. Which I would not consider 'goodness' at all, more like a 'guilt salve'.

And you broke RJ! Congrats!

MikePhil said

realifedad said We have all read the saying that "MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL" Right !!! Well I've about come to the conclusion that the word "RELIGION" should replace the word "MONEY". Tell you why I think this way, historicly its pretty clear that in just about every major war "RELIGION" was mixed in there somewhere. The hate of some sect, or religious belief system seems always to be part of the war. Religious people to a large degree are the most intolerant people of others life styles, or beliefs if different from their local religion, it just falls under "GROUP THINK", and religion is used for control of the masses. Its usually religious groups who are followers, and tend to fall for superstitions and will more blindly follow the likes of leaders like bush who "CLAIM" to be a follower of "GOD". Those people who think and study things out for themselves don't seem to follow any religious dogma. Religions promote blind "FAITH" as a virtue, when in actuality blind "FAITH" is dangerous for anyone in real life, and it seems the "FAITHFULL" are the ones who will just buy anything their "lEADERS" tell them. So to me organized religion is just another group trying to get more people in their particular club, and they foster their own growth by teaching that "you must believe as we do if you want to go to "HEAVEN"", this will scare the "FAITHFULL" followers into their club. Its all a big hoax, IS IT NOT???????????????????? So really !!! which causes more trouble in the world MONEY or Religion??????????????????????

Realifedad, I like you so don't take offence by this, but I find your post to be ridiculous. This is true for a few, but as a Catholic and believer in God, I find this kind of nonsense insulting. And for the record, I don't think you have to be of any religion to get to Heaven.

To answer your question, Money without question. What do you think Bush's war is about What do you think 9/11 was about If you think those have anything to do with religion, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Religion may be used as a tactic to bring people along, but money is the driver. And the drivers have no interest in God or religion.

Mike

Atopstud saidfor one there should be no such thing as a gay church.. church is religious and true, being gay is not, it goes against the bible. there is only one way to be in a church, thats the true teachings of the bible.. there ar eso many people who are goin to hell if they dont change their beliefs

dcarm saidThere are a number of theologians who would disagree with you, AtopStud. There is a significant set of resources and studies available which look at issues with the clobber passages which seem to be unattackable until you look at the translations used vs the translation options available.
eg
http://truthsetsfree.net/bible.htm

Cheers
D

Atopstud said

dcarm saidThere are a number of theologians who would disagree with you, AtopStud. There is a significant set of resources and studies available which look at issues with the clobber passages which seem to be unattackable until you look at the translations used vs the translation options available.
eg
http://truthsetsfree.net/bible.htm

Cheers
D

for one who cares about what the theologians believe, the only true way is the bible, i am not one to be a hypocrite cause i am in the wrong and will pray for my own self but if u knew what the bible said we would not be having this conversation...there is no such thing as a gay church. only teaching that come from the bible are church... what u believe my friend is just a bunch of queens gathered together having whats something like a "GATHERING OR MEETING" so its not called church, u might as well have a bunch of girls at an AA meeting eating sticks of celery....

Atopstud said

for one who cares about what the theologians believe, the only true way is the bible, i am not one to be a hypocrite cause i am in the wrong and will pray for my own self but if u knew what the bible said we would not be having this conversation...there is no such thing as a gay church. only teaching that come from the bible are church... what u believe my friend is just a bunch of queens gathered together having whats something like a "GATHERING OR MEETING" so its not called church, u might as well have a bunch of girls at an AA meeting eating sticks of celery....

Atopstud saidfor one there should be no such thing as a gay church.. church is religious and true, being gay is not, it goes against the bible. there is only one way to be in a church, thats the true teachings of the bible.. there ar eso many people who are goin to hell if they dont change their beliefs

MikePhil saidI willing to bet that Atopstud is just messing with you. He has to be. He couldn't be that messed up............could he

Atopstud saidfor one there should be no such thing as a gay church.. church is religious and true, being gay is not, it goes against the bible. there is only one way to be in a church, thats the true teachings of the bible.. there ar eso many people who are goin to hell if they dont change their beliefs

Pattison said

Atopstud saidfor one there should be no such thing as a gay church.. church is religious and true, being gay is not, it goes against the bible. there is only one way to be in a church, thats the true teachings of the bible.. there ar eso many people who are goin to hell if they dont change their beliefs

There is truth in what you say.

The Bible rejects homosexuals!

The Pope has closed the door to homosexuals becoming priests, even if they make the vale of chastity.

Go to a catholic church, and wear a rainbow vest. Not only will they back you sit at the back of the room, but will also refuse you the sacrament, as it's not for homosexuals.

You can not be a Mormon and a homosexual.

Homosexual Bishops of the Church of England, are creating a divide, and up raw, over their selfish deeds.

A gay chuch is ignoring the truth, and just steeping around it, so it's not a real church at all.

Religion rejects homosexuals! The Bible tells us so. In my view anyone homosexual whom goes th church, or calls themselves a Christan, certainly if they have a lover, is in denial.....

jprichva said

MikePhil saidI willing to bet that Atopstud is just messing with you. He has to be. He couldn't be that messed up............could he

I doubt he's kidding, MikePhil. I had a blind date once with a very attractive guy, serious Catholic, who spent the date telling me we were all going to hell for being gay, and we deserve it, but he couldn't help himself and by the way, did I want to sleep with him?

I said, uhhhhhh, no thanks.

Pattison saidSome of the most hatful bitter women I've cared for are catholics, whom went to church every day, and twice on a Sunday. It's got a lot to do with why One is unable to class catholics as Christians.

Pluse if the catholic Church was the true church of god, it would not of had such a corrupt past, all the wicked greedy, cruel things Popes have been guilty of.

More often than not. Money and power have become before God. So with such a wicked past how can it be a church of God.

Now in the present, that fact that the Catholic Church is guilty of raping the souls of children, and killing their childhood and faith. The pops have done their best too keep this in house, and out of the public eye, and courts.

No way is this a church of god.

The only countries it now has any power, is in 3rd world countries where it helps to spread the AIDES Virus, by say condoms are wrong.

No way is this a church of God!

Yet there is no such thing as a gay church, as god rejects homosexuals. We are an abomination to him.....

dcarm saidWell...
Pattison, I disagree with you.

I believe that if homosexuality was an abomination, we wouldn't see it exhibited in the rest of the animal kingdom.

That's a good reason to discount Paul's "they gave up the natural for the unnatural" phrase. It *IS* natural.

How exactly did we get to Catholic-bashing, by the way?

MikePhil said I know I could change that guy.

swimbikerun saidYeah it is the MCC. Some of the guilt talk centered on addiction and the idea seems to be to replace the focus of the addiction with god.