What's more "Unnatural" Religion or Same Sex Attraction?

  • honeybadger

    Posts: 128

    Mar 17, 2012 11:14 AM GMT
    I would say religion. Never seen a penguin in a burka. Dolphins to my knowledge don't abstain from sex. Bonobos don't wear yarmukles willingly.

    My point is the above non human species do engage in same sex couplings and sometimes life long same sex relationships. We all know it has been documented in nature.

    I believe everyone has the right to believe what they feel is right for themselves as long as it is not imposed on others. When some religious groups deem same sex attraction as unnatural their logic is flawed.

    Forgive me if this thread is unoriginal. Friends and I touched briefly on this topic last night and it made me think.
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    Mar 17, 2012 11:29 AM GMT
    I'd say it makes more sense for humans to believe in more than one god. Of course that is how it used to be before the rise of monotheistic religions. Polytheism just seems more "natural" to me than monotheism. Although I am an atheist.
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    Mar 17, 2012 1:28 PM GMT
    Well, I do know that animals have been observed performing rituals for their dead... suggesting that they mourn them in much the same way... and I actually believe that animals dream and can sense things such as ghosts....

    When it comes to religion, I used to tend to think that that was an extension of the "sixth sense" if you will.. trying to create a theory or to explain what goes on when we humans do what animals do.. sense the presence of "spirits" or perform rituals in order to appease the souls of those who have passed on... so in its basic essence.. I could say I believe in spirituality.. and religion being an organised cultural-political expression of that.. for better or for worse
  • Erakhalnum

    Posts: 102

    Mar 17, 2012 2:03 PM GMT
    I have always wondered what people mean when they say that something is natural.

    Is it that it has a natural (non supernatural) explanation? Then I would claim that their equally natural.
    Is it that it is a part of human nature? Then one could claim that religion is more natural since a bigger part of the population is religious than has same sex attraction.
    But in both definitions a religious person should say that religion is less natural. Since if they don’t, they admit that there are better explanations of their beliefs than the fact that their religion is true.
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    Mar 17, 2012 2:16 PM GMT
    Neither is unnatural; they are both legitimate expressions in the human species.
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    Mar 17, 2012 2:17 PM GMT
    So this is the, "You're more wrong than me." type of logic, eh? It didn't go over well when applied to the gay community so why would it go over well applied to the religious community? Unless your goal is to elicit hatred, that is.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14312

    Mar 17, 2012 2:20 PM GMT
    Religion is definitely more unnatural than gay sex. All religious beliefs are ancient fairy tales and that is no bullshit.
  • neon_tiger

    Posts: 145

    Mar 17, 2012 2:31 PM GMT
    From a science perspective:

    An event or phenomenon is natural when it can be explained using naturally occuring causes. Supernatural or philosophical explanations may not be used at to why or how the naturally occuring event happens.

    So, is one more natural than the other? well...

    Are they both human? absolutely!

    [url][/url]
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    Mar 17, 2012 2:33 PM GMT
    nature created us but we created religion

    also the twinkie...
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    Mar 17, 2012 2:39 PM GMT
    I see most organized religion as a tool for social control whereas homosexuality I strongly believe to be a product of genetics . Religion is man made so how can it be natural?
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    Mar 17, 2012 2:41 PM GMT
    I think it's natural for anything to happen and if you think it's unnatural, then you are limited and parochial in your thinking.
  • okcomputer201...

    Posts: 132

    Mar 17, 2012 2:41 PM GMT
    If by natural you mean eating, reproducing, and dying in the simplest,most efficient way possible, there are plenty of behaviors in nature that seem perfectly unnatural and unnecessary. Social hierarchies and assigned roles within animal communities are comparable to religion.

    Why is it the lioness's responsibility to hunt for her tribe while her mate spends his day basking in the sun? He is just as capable of hunting as she is.

    Why is one female bee exalted above her peers, who work tirelessly while she spends her life breeding and sleeping?

    Why do fishes swim in schools?

    Why do orchids use their blossom's to mimic insects, relying on insect lust for their own pollination?

    Religion is a way humans organize their communities, relying on partially understood truths about history, science, and human nature to create social order. Their is nothing unnatural about an organism devoting it's entire existence to ritual and faith in the intangible.

    As for homosexuality being unnatural, living things screw. End of story. Sex with anything is primitive and natural.
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    Mar 17, 2012 2:50 PM GMT
    Honeybadger saidI would say religion. Never seen a penguin in a burka. Dolphins to my knowledge don't abstain from sex. Bonobos don't wear yarmukles willingly.

    My point is the above non human species do engage in same sex couplings and sometimes life long same sex relationships. We all know it has been documented in nature.

    I believe everyone has the right to believe what they feel is right for themselves as long as it is not imposed on others. When some religious groups deem same sex attraction as unnatural their logic is flawed.

    Forgive me if this thread is unoriginal. Friends and I touched briefly on this topic last night and it made me think.


    Food for your thoughts...

    Is nature an adequate foundation for morality in general?

    I think not. As a matter of fact, some animals eat their young. Anti-religious folk get angry at religious folk for being hypocritical. If you're gonna use nature as a guide for moral behavior, then you're gonna have to say that it is OK for some (people) to eat their young. After all, it "occurs" in the natural world. God forbid we permit it in human society.

    It is very problematic to extrapolate for human society what is "ok" and "not ok" by what is considered "natural" or "of the natural" world. A very slippery slope, indeed. It wouldn't be difficult to argue that the "gay' penguins in the end did what was best for their species. If you want to be logically consistent, you're gonna find yourself with a strange and incompatible set of moral codes.

    In that sense, humanity move and has its being on a different plane when it comes to matters of religion, beauty, music, art, philosophy/reflection, recreation/leisure, and even... cooking/dining. By defining man as "made in the image of God", the foundation of human dignity is set far above the rest of the created, natural world.

    Bottom line: We are not animals. Don't act like one. THAT is one of the main points of religion.
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    Mar 17, 2012 2:59 PM GMT
    first of all what the fuck does natural mean? it means nothing! everything is natural!
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    Mar 17, 2012 3:00 PM GMT
    archon saidfirst of all what the fuck does natural mean? it means nothing! everything is natural!

    Good point. I think we need to define a working definition for discussion. I think I used it in the sense of "that which occurs in the natural world that does not include human society and interaction". But true, we are part of "nature" as well.
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    Mar 17, 2012 3:01 PM GMT
    Religion is non-natural because it was created by humans and taught through generations.

    Same sex attraction is natural because humans cannot choose what makes their dicks hard or pussies wet.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19119

    Mar 17, 2012 3:02 PM GMT
    AMoonHawk said
    geographic_info_systems saidNeither is unnatural; they are both legitimate expressions in the human species.

    +1



    +2
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    Mar 17, 2012 3:04 PM GMT
    paulflexes saidReligion is non-natural because it was created by humans and taught through generations.
    Same sex attraction is natural because humans cannot choose what makes their dicks hard or pussies wet.


    I assume then one could include science itself as man-made and man-taught in that definition, and thus is "non-natural".
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    Mar 17, 2012 3:13 PM GMT
    Sex is natural. Sexual expressions can be constructed.

    Religion is constructed. Self-transcendence might be natural, possibly with physical location in the brain.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100210124757.htm
    ScienceDaily (Feb. 10, 2010) — New research provides fascinating insight into brain changes that might underlie alterations in spiritual and religious attitudes. The study, published by Cell Press in the February 11 issue of the journal Neuron, explores the neural basis of spirituality by studying patients before and after surgery to remove a brain tumor....

    ..."Neuroimaging studies have linked activity within a large network in the brain that connects the frontal, parietal, and temporal cortexes with spiritual experiences, but information on the causative link between such a network and spirituality is lacking,"


    I've utilized much of my lifetime studying self-transcendence. A tiny sampling of my experience in the field can be found on the last page (currently) of this thread: http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2232818
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    Mar 17, 2012 3:15 PM GMT
    The occurance of religion is natural but the basis are supernatural. The occurance of homosexuality is natural and the basis are also natural. You do the math
  • honeybadger

    Posts: 128

    Mar 17, 2012 3:58 PM GMT
    Webster's English Dictionary defines:

    natural |ˈnaCHərəl|
    adjective
    1 existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind: carrots contain a natural antiseptic that fights bacteria | natural disasters such as earthquakes.

    nature |ˈnāCHər|
    noun
    1 the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations: the breathtaking beauty of nature.
    • the physical force regarded as causing and regulating these phenomena: it is impossible to change the laws of nature. See also Mother Nature.

    religion |riˈlijən|
    noun
    the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods: ideas about the relationship between science and religion.
    • a particular system of faith and worship: the world's great religions.
    • a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance: consumerism is the new religion.
  • honeybadger

    Posts: 128

    Mar 17, 2012 4:00 PM GMT
    Animus saidSo this is the, "You're more wrong than me." type of logic, eh? It didn't go over well when applied to the gay community so why would it go over well applied to the religious community? Unless your goal is to elicit hatred, that is.


    Intelligent and respectful debate= No H8
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    Mar 17, 2012 4:11 PM GMT
    Religion and gayness are both human behaviors.

    So is pointlessly arguing about either one.

    When the day comes when no more humans exist, the debate wil finally be over.
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    Mar 17, 2012 4:12 PM GMT
    I think any anthropologist will tell you that every culture even the most uncivilized has some basic form of religion including folklore of how the world was made - and even a flood story - so I don't think it's unnatural for humans to develop or look for a belief system.

    I don't even think you're comparing apples and oranges - you're comparing apples and a coffee table. It just seems illogical.

    No disrespect - just my opinion.
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    Mar 17, 2012 4:29 PM GMT
    Homosexuality isn't un-natural because we see it in nature every day.
    So the obvious choice here is religion.

    PS HoneyBadger you look like Neil Degrasse Tyson!