superficial or immoral, result of homophobia or virtualization?

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    Mar 23, 2012 5:04 AM GMT
    1- Do you agree that currently many (if not the majority) of the guys (gay guys) are more interested in having a hook-up or a very short-term relationship? Do you consider this to be immoral* or at least superficial and unhealthy?

    * Edit: immoral as something that you don't consider right for yourself based on your personal values and emotions.

    2- If yes, what do you think might be the reason for that?

    I believe this trend is not physiologically and psychologically healthy and I think part of the reason can be the long term effects of homophobia and inequality in society, by which gays are considered "immoral" no matter how they live and what they do. This can cause one to unconsciously see himself as immoral and act more based on his sexual instinct rather than emotional needs.

    Another reason can be the prevalence of online social networks among gays (which is an effect of homophobia again) and the contagious superficial culture in these networks that includes short sex-oriented conversations, multiple and discontinuous connections and fast-n-easy ignorance.

    One might say this is natural and any man is like that, I can't agree with this and I believe we are pushed to be like that by the homophobic society. I think we are naturally happier with a physiologically and psychologically healthy and reliable long-term relationship.
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    Mar 23, 2012 7:02 AM GMT
    yourname2000 said[sigh] Really? Your 3rd post, and it's the start of a thread which, if answered properly, could earn someone their doctorate, or at least masters degree? icon_neutral.gif

    Shit...da interwebz is tuff werk these days. icon_sad.gif


    lol, sorry if it sounds nerdy, but i think it's important

    so, what do you think?
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    Mar 23, 2012 7:20 AM GMT
    1- no

    2- see above
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    Mar 23, 2012 11:42 AM GMT
    1. Straight and bi guys are just as promiscuous - if not more so - than gay guys. The only thing immoral is judging them to make yourself look better.

    2. Because society has stigmatized polygamy, which was the norm up until the 19th century.
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    Mar 23, 2012 11:47 AM GMT
    morningsmile saidI think we are naturally happier with a physiologically and psychologically healthy and reliable long-term relationship.


    Who says we can't we have both? Psychologically healthy and reliable long-term relationships and HOT RAUNCHY FLEETING fucks?? I do...
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    Mar 23, 2012 11:59 AM GMT
    Nice chest.. icon_razz.gif ... I AGREE!
    now what are we talkin about? icon_neutral.gif
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    Mar 23, 2012 12:07 PM GMT
    morningsmile said
    Another reason can be the prevalence of online social networks among gays (which is an effect of homophobia again) and the contagious superficial culture in these networks

    Online social networks are an effect of homophobia?
    Do you know any straight people who aren't part of an online social network?
    Explain to us, please, how homophobia created Facebook and its contagious superficial culture.
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    Mar 23, 2012 5:36 PM GMT
    TexDef07 said
    morningsmile said
    Another reason can be the prevalence of online social networks among gays (which is an effect of homophobia again) and the contagious superficial culture in these networks

    Online social networks are an effect of homophobia?
    Do you know any straight people who aren't part of an online social network?
    Explain to us, please, how homophobia created Facebook and its contagious superficial culture.


    No, I didn't say that. I said the "prevalence" of online social networks among gays can be a result of homophobia, and FB is not a good example for this case because it is not a place to meet people, it is where you keep the connections you already have. Grindr is a good example for what I am trying to say.

    Homophobia (and also our lower population compared to heterosexuals) makes it harder for us to meet in real life. The more conservative and homophobic your environment is, the more you are pushed toward using an online or discrete network for meeting people. Isn't this true?

    I think a relationship merely based on your (temporary) sexual desire is superficial. I am not judging anyone and I am not saying this is "bad". I am trying to say human beings need stronger and more reliable relationships.

    for example: look at the number of people who are in the non-adult chat room and compare that with the the number of people in the adult room. And imagine how a new user who just wants to meet other guys will adapt to this situation.

    Again. this is not about "judging" people. It is just a topic for discussion and I like to know what others think.
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    Mar 23, 2012 9:30 PM GMT
    Relationships of all types exist to create polarity. I would argue that friendships, relationships and associations are more necessary today than ever before. It's the necessicity that makes it harder for some people to form relationships, leaving a large number of people interpersonally unfulfilled.
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Nov 09, 2012 7:23 PM GMT
    resurrecting this thread

    a) because you guys are just so GREAT... i love the irreverence among other things

    b) cuz the guy who started it is serious, handsome, asking (to me) interesting questions and

    c) because "virtualization" is a term I hadn't heard before but fits things I've been thinking about, too.

    sweet!
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    Nov 09, 2012 9:41 PM GMT
    MikeW saidresurrecting this thread

    a) because you guys are just so GREAT... i love the irreverence among other things

    b) cuz the guy who started it is serious, handsome, asking (to me) interesting questions and

    c) because "virtualization" is a term I hadn't heard before but fits things I've been thinking about, too.

    sweet!



    I like this! Let me think...


    Firstly, I do not know if the majority of gay men, or men in general, are promiscuous. However, in my experience they are but that may be because they are more "social," so to speak.

    Anyway, I think the question of morality is relative to the individual. So I will leave out morality and try to answer "why" I think this happens.

    I truly believe that for individuals who partake in hook ups, anonymous sex, or what have you, are people who have unconscious desires to fulfill, resolve, or veil an internal unresolved conflict. I use unconscious here to denote a dynamic entity that engages us at the deepest level of our being.

    Until we find a way to know and acknowledge to ourselves the true cause(s) of our repressed wounds, fears, guilty desires, and unresolved conflicts, we hang onto them in disguised, distorted, and self-defeating ways.

    Thus, our unconscious desires not to recognize or change our destructive behaviors—because we have formed our identities around them and because we are afraid of what we will find if we examine them too closely—are served by our defenses. So sex can act as one of those defenses.

    The only problem is that the origination of the defense is relative to the individual. So, for gay men, it could be anything from internalized homophobia, Oedipal fixation, or something else. I think that one thing that rings true for many is the fear of intimacy: the overpowering feeling that emotional closeness will seriously hurt or destroy us and that we can remain emotionally safe only by remaining at an emotional distance from others at all times: sex without love, anonymous hook ups.

    So, to me, this is a very sad phenomenon that occurs in our community covering all sexual orientations. It really is not a question of morality, and I think that may be a destructive way of looking at it. It is more about a lack of acceptance from peers, parents, the community, but mostly importantly, yourself.
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    Nov 09, 2012 10:03 PM GMT
    paulflexes said1. Straight and bi guys are just as promiscuous - if not more so - than gay guys. The only thing immoral is judging them to make yourself look better.

    2. Because society has stigmatized polygamy, which was the norm up until the 19th century.


    Would like to see the statistics on #1. Neither agreeing or disagreeing.

    Polygamy was the norm because men OWNED the women. Women had no rights and in many countries still do not. Doesn't make it right, just because it "used to be".

    And the argument that men are just naturally animals/beasts doesn't hold water. We rose above the "beasts" thousands of years ago, though we do not always show it.

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    Nov 09, 2012 10:29 PM GMT
    I think that this topic has been done to death on RJ and there's no need to resurrect it. There's always a touch of self-loathing and undeserved generalization in the question - "I haven't found a relationship, so gay guys are just too slutty."
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    Nov 09, 2012 10:29 PM GMT
    trm_dallas said
    MikeW saidresurrecting this thread

    a) because you guys are just so GREAT... i love the irreverence among other things

    b) cuz the guy who started it is serious, handsome, asking (to me) interesting questions and

    c) because "virtualization" is a term I hadn't heard before but fits things I've been thinking about, too.

    sweet!



    I like this! Let me think...


    Firstly, I do not know if the majority of gay men, or men in general, are promiscuous. However, in my experience they are but that may be because they are more "social," so to speak.

    Anyway, I think the question of morality is relative to the individual. So I will leave out morality and try to answer "why" I think this happens.

    I truly believe that for individuals who partake in hook ups, anonymous sex, or what have you, are people who have unconscious desires to fulfill, resolve, or veil an internal unresolved conflict. I use unconscious here to denote a dynamic entity that engages us at the deepest level of our being.

    Until we find a way to know and acknowledge to ourselves the true cause(s) of our repressed wounds, fears, guilty desires, and unresolved conflicts, we hang onto them in disguised, distorted, and self-defeating ways.

    Thus, our unconscious desires not to recognize or change our destructive behaviors—because we have formed our identities around them and because we are afraid of what we will find if we examine them too closely—are served by our defenses. So sex can act as one of those defenses.

    The only problem is that the origination of the defense is relative to the individual. So, for gay men, it could be anything from internalized homophobia, Oedipal fixation, or something else. I think that one thing that rings true for many is the fear of intimacy: the overpowering feeling that emotional closeness will seriously hurt or destroy us and that we can remain emotionally safe only by remaining at an emotional distance from others at all times: sex without love, anonymous hook ups.

    So, to me, this is a very sad phenomenon that occurs in our community covering all sexual orientations. It really is not a question of morality, and I think that may be a destructive way of looking at it. It is more about a lack of acceptance from peers, parents, the community, but mostly importantly, yourself.


    Probably one of the most intelligent replies I have ever read. Every point he makes it very true.
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    Nov 09, 2012 10:40 PM GMT
    ^ Really? think it's psychobabble.

    "I truly believe that for individuals who partake in hook ups, anonymous sex, or what have you, are people who have unconscious desires to fulfill, resolve, or veil an internal unresolved conflict. I use unconscious here to denote a dynamic entity that engages us at the deepest level of our being."

    Seriously?

    How about, guy was horny, wanted to take care of it with someone who was hot but who he wasn't interested in a relationship with?
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    Nov 09, 2012 11:00 PM GMT
    showme said^ Really? think it's psychobabble.

    "I truly believe that for individuals who partake in hook ups, anonymous sex, or what have you, are people who have unconscious desires to fulfill, resolve, or veil an internal unresolved conflict. I use unconscious here to denote a dynamic entity that engages us at the deepest level of our being."

    Seriously?

    How about, guy was horny, wanted to take care of it with someone who was hot but who he wasn't interested in a relationship with?



    Well, that is why I included "fulfill" and "unresolved conflict". Although, I can see why you make it out to be an extremely simplistic endeavor. Mind you, no one thinks about the things I mention, which is why its called unconscious. My only point is that there is more to the act of hooking up with someone. If we are talking purely cause and effect, I would definitely agree with your comment, but only on superficial levels.
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    Nov 09, 2012 11:02 PM GMT
    I suppose there can be a deeper level to this behavior for some - mostly, those for whom it represents a problem - but honestly, I don't think there is most of the time.
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    Nov 09, 2012 11:06 PM GMT
    showme saidI suppose there can be a deeper level to this behavior for some - mostly, those for whom it represents a problem - but honestly, I don't think there is most of the time.



    Well, let me ask you this. Do you think that sex is just something you decide to do?

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    Nov 09, 2012 11:09 PM GMT
    paulflexes said1. Straight and bi guys are just as promiscuous - if not more so - than gay guys. The only thing immoral is judging them to make yourself look better.

    2. Because society has stigmatized polygamy, which was the norm up until the 19th century.


    My roommate who is straight has brought home about 8 girls since we moved in together last October. I have had one date which I brought home, do the math. icon_eek.gif
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4864

    Nov 09, 2012 11:17 PM GMT
    I also find it disturbing. However, I'm not sure that there's much difference between gay men and non-gay men.

    Women, on average, tend to be more reticent about sex than men. Therefore, many non-gay men find it more difficult to have a large number of sex partners than do gay men. That probably explains why gay men tend to have more sex partners.

    Social networking sites have not changed the basic situation. Now, instead of finding partners at the three Bs, i.e., bars, beaches, and baths, guys use social networking sites instead.

    Actually, affection and hugging are more important to me than sex. Also, I'd rather get to know someone before having sex. For that reason, I am unhappy with the fact that it is easier to find a one-time-only sex partner than to find someone who is interested in more than sex.
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    Nov 09, 2012 11:24 PM GMT
    showme saidI suppose there can be a deeper level to this behavior for some - mostly, those for whom it represents a problem - but honestly, I don't think there is most of the time.


    I will answer for you, because my question was just a reformulation of your first response.

    So, yes, it is just a decision you would say.

    Well, you also cannot deny that sex is VERY instinctual. Right? And, for most, we cannot control our instincts. So, to assert that sex is just a superficial decision you make is to ignore that our continuity plays a vital role in the decision making process. This continuity, this biology, is something you and I are not in control over and is at work every second.

    So, yes, sex fundamentally is a result of something much more than a decision---I do think that there is a deeper level to the behavior every single time.
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    Nov 09, 2012 11:29 PM GMT
    I honestly don't know since I'm not out, nor have I even talked to a gay guy, however sex sites certainly do paint a bad picture of the gay community.

    I'm gonna say yes, I agree with your statement (based on my little experience). I don't know if it is immoral, but it can be superficial and unhealthy for good mental well being.

    In my opinion, gays like sex, because after so many years of being in the closet, they want to enjoy their freedom. Straight people have sex all the time. So why should gays be any different? The only difference, is that no one cares when a guy and girl hook-up, but when it's two guys, its slutty and reflects a whole community

    Do I think it is unhealthy in general? Yes. I believe relationships are better than hook-ups, but sometimes, you just gotta enjoy life.
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    Nov 10, 2012 12:18 AM GMT
    trm_dallas said
    showme saidI suppose there can be a deeper level to this behavior for some - mostly, those for whom it represents a problem - but honestly, I don't think there is most of the time.


    I will answer for you, because my question was just a reformulation of your first response.

    So, yes, it is just a decision you would say.

    Well, you also cannot deny that sex is VERY instinctual. Right? And, for most, we cannot control our instincts. So, to assert that sex is just a superficial decision you make is to ignore that our continuity plays a vital role in the decision making process. This continuity, this biology, is something you and I are not in control over and is at work every second.

    So, yes, sex fundamentally is a result of something much more than a decision---I do think that there is a deeper level to the behavior every single time.


    We can't control our instincts, in the sense of having them. But we sure as heck can control how respond to them. And I don't think that deciding to have sex outside of a relationship necessarily indicates some kind of deeper, disturbing problem.
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Nov 10, 2012 2:00 AM GMT
    WOW. I kick a thread up, go to the gym for the afternoon, and look what's happened.

    Yeah, no doubt this topic has been gone over and over again here and elsewhere -- but I'm new in this arena so forgive me if I'm still trying to understand all this for myself.

    Thank you, tm_dallas for some interesting thought on this subject. I totally agree about the "morality" aspect. From my POV our whole fucking (so called) civilization is immoral but that is just my opinion which few people share.

    I think our (civilized human) view of sexuality is screwed, regardless of our sexual orientation.

    Conversation to be continued when I don't have guests.

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    Jan 15, 2013 7:32 AM GMT
    MikeW saidresurrecting this thread

    a) because you guys are just so GREAT... i love the irreverence among other things

    b) cuz the guy who started it is serious, handsome, asking (to me) interesting questions and

    c) because "virtualization" is a term I hadn't heard before but fits things I've been thinking about, too.

    sweet!


    Haha, I just saw the later replies to this topic.

    Thanks. I think I have become less serious lately.