TRUE OR FALSE - IS THE MUSLIM FAITH/CULTURE OPPRESSIVE TOWARDS WOMEN?

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    Apr 09, 2012 8:32 PM GMT
    I had a very big argument with my bud's bf over this. It all started when the issue of Rihanna and Chris Brown beating her to a pulp came up.

    I said no man should ever lay a hand on a woman - no matter what she did. The other guy said he'd hit a woman - be it a slap or whatever if she deserved it. I, of course, am very against it. Maybe because I'm not a misogynist. It's been proven that a lot of gay men are misogynists - tracing back to even Ancient times when a lot of the Greek playwrights (who were gay) wrote their female characters in a very negative light.

    So I got mad at the fact that he thinks it's okay to hit women. Especially since he has a mother and sisters. But, he's also Muslim. And I pointed it out to him that that's probably why he views women the way he was. He obviously got mad and defensive.

    Now, I'm not saying this out of hate. I love everyone. And I have MANY Muslim friends - those of which have educated me very much on what their culture is like. I know Muslims who are Indian, Persian, Middle Eastern - and almost all of them have talked about how difficult it is to be a woman in their culture. Was I in the wrong for saying that his view of women was influenced cuz of his oppressive faith/culture towards women? Or did I hit the nail on the head and he just got offended and defensive (even tho it wasn't a personal attack on him)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
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    Apr 09, 2012 8:48 PM GMT
    ALL abrahamic religions are oppressive to women. Discussion over.
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    Apr 10, 2012 3:17 AM GMT
    Most of the civilised world is oppressive to women, as they are farther removed from nature.. most tribal societies are not oppressive to women, as they tend to be closer to nature and thus respect females and the female principle more
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    Apr 10, 2012 3:32 AM GMT
    GreenHopper saidMost of the civilised world is oppressive to women, as they are farther removed from nature.. most tribal societies are not oppressive to women, as they tend to be closer to nature and thus respect females and the female principle more
    I quite agree with this!
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    Apr 10, 2012 4:49 AM GMT
    Sometimes the truth hurts. I think his reaction demonstrates that. You weren't wrong, just not "politically correct".

    Hitting women is ridiculous. It's not a crime to call out an inferior culture for what it is. Don't feel bad about it. Just be sad that he will hit women, and he will have kids who likely will think it's ok to hit women. It seems your country is becoming a place where an increasing percentage of the population thinks it's ok to hit women. That's a shame, and it makes me sad for Canada.
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    Apr 10, 2012 9:05 PM GMT
    TropicalMark saidALL abrahamic religions are oppressive to women. Discussion over.


    Not quite.

    I am a committed Christian, one of the Abrahamic faiths, but I am utterly opposed to hitting women. And I live in a country (the UK) where there is a growing feminist mentality among better educated women - the idea that we men are disposable assets. Some of these women are even trying to conceive (sperm bank) and raise children without a male partner getting in the way. Yet to me, a man striking a woman physically is the ultimate of cowardice.

    But to answer the OP's question, Islam does teach subjugation of women often by force, and I would not be surprised that domestic violence goes on unchallenged in a Muslim country. Here in the UK, there is talk among Government ministers (but so far no action as yet) to make forced marriage, often an Islamic custom, illegal.
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    Apr 10, 2012 10:49 PM GMT
    NotThatOld said
    TropicalMark saidALL abrahamic religions are oppressive to women. Discussion over.


    But to answer the OP's question, Islam does teach subjugation of women often by force, and I would not be surprised that domestic violence goes on unchallenged in a Muslim country. Here in the UK, there is talk among Government ministers (but so far no action as yet) to make forced marriage, often an Islamic custom, illegal.


    I agree with you. And Canada is a very equal opportunity country. We were one of the firsts to legalize gay marriage! The person I was arguing with immigrated here.
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    Apr 10, 2012 11:30 PM GMT
    NotThatOld said
    TropicalMark saidALL abrahamic religions are oppressive to women. Discussion over.


    Not quite.

    I am a committed Christian, one of the Abrahamic faiths, but I am utterly opposed to hitting women. And I live in a country (the UK) where there is a growing feminist mentality among better educated women - the idea that we men are disposable assets. Some of these women are even trying to conceive (sperm bank) and raise children without a male partner getting in the way. Yet to me, a man striking a woman physically is the ultimate of cowardice.

    But to answer the OP's question, Islam does teach subjugation of women often by force, and I would not be surprised that domestic violence goes on unchallenged in a Muslim country. Here in the UK, there is talk among Government ministers (but so far no action as yet) to make forced marriage, often an Islamic custom, illegal.
    Baloney! I didnt say anything about 'hitting', I said "OPPRESSIVE"... as a 'committed' christian you had better understand and KNOW your bible..

    The sexist, misogynistic, woman-hating and enslaving mentality can be found abundantly in the Old Testament:


    Here are a few examples of the women oppression in the New Testament:

    "...the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says." 1 Corinthians 4:34

    "Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent." 1 Timothy 2:11-12

    "Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands." 1 Peter 3:1

    And from the Koran:

    "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other... Good women are obedient. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart; and beat them" Q 4:34
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    Apr 11, 2012 2:54 AM GMT
    You do raise a good point. But I'd say Christianity has somewhat evolved a lot more than say Muslim to this day. I mean, come on - it's right there in front of you. A Christian woman commits adultery, her husband gets pissed and divorces her. In some Muslim countries, she gets stoned. Hmmm
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    Apr 11, 2012 3:01 AM GMT
    wonofakind saidYou do raise a good point. But I'd say Christianity has somewhat evolved a lot more than say Muslim to this day. I mean, come on - it's right there in front of you. A Christian woman commits adultery, her husband gets pissed and divorces her. In some Muslim countries, she gets stoned. Hmmm


    Christianity 'evolved'? I think what you are talking about, sir, is secularism, which ran rampant in Muslim countries during the middle ages, when women were being burnt for accusations of witchcraft when any random man was spurned in his advances and wanted to take out his jealousy on her...

    And to talk a bit more about the difference.. Christianity does not actually allow divorce in actuality.. it is a secular institution.. islam allows the woman free choice to divorce.. thus, unlike Christianity, in Islam divorce is allowed... it has little to do with religious evolution, but entirely with secularism and politics in fact ...

    A Saudi woman once wrote a book, but I forgot the title, where she states it clearly in the beginning: the problem with the way women are treated in most Arab countries have little to do with Islam... it has to do with Arab male chauvinism... which I can promise you, is just as bad among non-Muslim Arab culture as it is in Islam... and to be frank.. it is obviously still present in Christianity, as the current debate over the woman's uterus in the USA is clearly making evident
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    Apr 11, 2012 3:57 AM GMT
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    Apr 11, 2012 5:15 AM GMT
    You dont see middle eastern/ asian men, dressed from head to foot in shapeless blankets, hiding everything barr their eyes, walking quietly behind theirnpartners, do you? Culturally still in the middle ages.
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    Apr 12, 2012 3:44 AM GMT
    GreenHopper said
    wonofakind saidYou do raise a good point. But I'd say Christianity has somewhat evolved a lot more than say Muslim to this day. I mean, come on - it's right there in front of you. A Christian woman commits adultery, her husband gets pissed and divorces her. In some Muslim countries, she gets stoned. Hmmm


    Christianity 'evolved'? I think what you are talking about, sir, is secularism, which ran rampant in Muslim countries during the middle ages, when women were being burnt for accusations of witchcraft when any random man was spurned in his advances and wanted to take out his jealousy on her...

    And to talk a bit more about the difference.. Christianity does not actually allow divorce in actuality.. it is a secular institution.. islam allows the woman free choice to divorce.. thus, unlike Christianity, in Islam divorce is allowed... it has little to do with religious evolution, but entirely with secularism and politics in fact ...

    A Saudi woman once wrote a book, but I forgot the title, where she states it clearly in the beginning: the problem with the way women are treated in most Arab countries have little to do with Islam... it has to do with Arab male chauvinism... which I can promise you, is just as bad among non-Muslim Arab culture as it is in Islam... and to be frank.. it is obviously still present in Christianity, as the current debate over the woman's uterus in the USA is clearly making evident


    No no, you misread. I wasn't only talking about the religion. I mentioned the "culture" as well. The male chauvinism culture was implied in that. But you do raise some good points. And Christian women ARE allowed to get divorced. It's just not as easy to get it cuz, the bond of marriage is extremely sacred in Christianity.
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    Apr 13, 2012 6:27 PM GMT
    True.
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    Apr 21, 2012 10:05 PM GMT
    wonofakind said
    No no, you misread. I wasn't only talking about the religion. I mentioned the "culture" as well. The male chauvinism culture was implied in that. But you do raise some good points. And Christian women ARE allowed to get divorced. It's just not as easy to get it cuz, the bond of marriage is extremely sacred in Christianity.


    Christian women allowed divorce? Thats not what I understood from the history of Catholicism... i think Christian divorce is secular, not religious.. in Islam, the divorce is religious... all a woman has to do is say to her husband three times "I divorce you" and then G-d sanctions the split....

    In that sense, Islam is the most female-friendly religion I know of, none of the other world religions give her that much power and independence off of her man...

    but yes, like you said, the Arab CULTURE is extremely oppressive, but that is separate from the religious perscription persé... and the machismo is just as bad accross much of the mediterranean... greek and roman women were just as badly treated.... unlike their Basque and Celtic counterparts who could be chieftains...
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    Apr 22, 2012 2:56 AM GMT
    Ummm....maybe in the past...but Greek and Roman today are in no way regarded the same as women of Muslim faith. They've evolved slightly over time...not sure about Muslim - since women and men are still not allowed to be in the same room at a mosque.
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    Apr 22, 2012 8:26 AM GMT
    wonofakind saidUmmm....maybe in the past...but Greek and Roman today are in no way regarded the same as women of Muslim faith. They've evolved slightly over time...not sure about Muslim - since women and men are still not allowed to be in the same room at a mosque.


    "Evolved" is a big word.. I wont enter into it, since its subjective, .. in my opinion, modern day culture everywhere is extremely misogynist, including American culture... also, we were formerly talking about "culture" and now you mention "muslim faith" so that I really don't know what I'm arguing about anymore, as it goes from one thing to the other, I dont put everything into one single category, thats why I mentioned culture for the Romans and Greeks and Arabs, and religion for the Muslims

    as for the mosque thing with the separation of the sexes.. would you, as a woman, want to bend over and show your ass to the guys standing behind you while you're supposed to be praying? For that matter, would you expect the man to be able to keep his mind on the prayer if a woman bent over in front of him?

    Also, traditional Jewish AND Hindu places of worship AND many modern indigenous churches in South America separate the sexes.. for the simple reason that it is preferred for the attendants not to get distracted ... it has nothing to do with machismo

    Now, however, there is a machismo present in all of the world religions, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or buddhist... Practically all of them, save for certain sects, do not allow women to become priestesses, or leaders of worship.. this is a role reserved for men in all five... so yes, there is machismo in all these religions, but I do not think Islam as a religion is more misogynist.. as far as religious perscription goes, it is one of the least misogynist, equalled perhaps only by Buddhism, which is still misogynist..

    Like I said up here.. the only religions that are not misogynist are tribal religions, and even there there is strict separation... males are usually chiefs, but the women of the tribe usually make the decisions communally and for the household, the women can throw the men out of the house if the man displeases her etc. They are not subject to male "orders".. but there are restrictions, absolutely, this is true for all cultures, with certain roles ascribed to each sex, and among tribal cultures, also for the "in-between-gender" people
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    Apr 22, 2012 4:55 PM GMT
    GreenHopper said
    wonofakind saidUmmm....maybe in the past...but Greek and Roman today are in no way regarded the same as women of Muslim faith. They've evolved slightly over time...not sure about Muslim - since women and men are still not allowed to be in the same room at a mosque.


    "Evolved" is a big word.. I wont enter into it, since its subjective, .. in my opinion, modern day culture everywhere is extremely misogynist, including American culture... also, we were formerly talking about "culture" and now you mention "muslim faith" so that I really don't know what I'm arguing about anymore, as it goes from one thing to the other, I dont put everything into one single category, thats why I mentioned culture for the Romans and Greeks and Arabs, and religion for the Muslims

    as for the mosque thing with the separation of the sexes.. would you, as a woman, want to bend over and show your ass to the guys standing behind you while you're supposed to be praying? For that matter, would you expect the man to be able to keep his mind on the prayer if a woman bent over in front of him?

    Also, traditional Jewish AND Hindu places of worship AND many modern indigenous churches in South America separate the sexes.. for the simple reason that it is preferred for the attendants not to get distracted ... it has nothing to do with machismo

    Now, however, there is a machismo present in all of the world religions, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or buddhist... Practically all of them, save for certain sects, do not allow women to become priestesses, or leaders of worship.. this is a role reserved for men in all five... so yes, there is machismo in all these religions, but I do not think Islam as a religion is more misogynist.. as far as religious perscription goes, it is one of the least misogynist, equalled perhaps only by Buddhism, which is still misogynist..

    Like I said up here.. the only religions that are not misogynist are tribal religions, and even there there is strict separation... males are usually chiefs, but the women of the tribe usually make the decisions communally and for the household, the women can throw the men out of the house if the man displeases her etc. They are not subject to male "orders".. but there are restrictions, absolutely, this is true for all cultures, with certain roles ascribed to each sex, and among tribal cultures, also for the "in-between-gender" people


    Then answer me this: Why do some Muslim religions not let their women bury their men? I went to a Muslim funeral and the wife wasn't even allowed to be at the burial site of her own husband while a complete stranger (me) was.
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    Apr 22, 2012 5:47 PM GMT
    wonofakind said
    GreenHopper said
    wonofakind saidUmmm....maybe in the past...but Greek and Roman today are in no way regarded the same as women of Muslim faith. They've evolved slightly over time...not sure about Muslim - since women and men are still not allowed to be in the same room at a mosque.


    "Evolved" is a big word.. I wont enter into it, since its subjective, .. in my opinion, modern day culture everywhere is extremely misogynist, including American culture... also, we were formerly talking about "culture" and now you mention "muslim faith" so that I really don't know what I'm arguing about anymore, as it goes from one thing to the other, I dont put everything into one single category, thats why I mentioned culture for the Romans and Greeks and Arabs, and religion for the Muslims

    as for the mosque thing with the separation of the sexes.. would you, as a woman, want to bend over and show your ass to the guys standing behind you while you're supposed to be praying? For that matter, would you expect the man to be able to keep his mind on the prayer if a woman bent over in front of him?

    Also, traditional Jewish AND Hindu places of worship AND many modern indigenous churches in South America separate the sexes.. for the simple reason that it is preferred for the attendants not to get distracted ... it has nothing to do with machismo

    Now, however, there is a machismo present in all of the world religions, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or buddhist... Practically all of them, save for certain sects, do not allow women to become priestesses, or leaders of worship.. this is a role reserved for men in all five... so yes, there is machismo in all these religions, but I do not think Islam as a religion is more misogynist.. as far as religious perscription goes, it is one of the least misogynist, equalled perhaps only by Buddhism, which is still misogynist..

    Like I said up here.. the only religions that are not misogynist are tribal religions, and even there there is strict separation... males are usually chiefs, but the women of the tribe usually make the decisions communally and for the household, the women can throw the men out of the house if the man displeases her etc. They are not subject to male "orders".. but there are restrictions, absolutely, this is true for all cultures, with certain roles ascribed to each sex, and among tribal cultures, also for the "in-between-gender" people


    Then answer me this: Why do some Muslim religions not let their women bury their men? I went to a Muslim funeral and the wife wasn't even allowed to be at the burial site of her own husband while a complete stranger (me) was.
    If you have such an issue with "muslim religions' dont practice it! DUH!icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Apr 22, 2012 8:04 PM GMT
    TropicalMark said
    wonofakind said
    GreenHopper said
    wonofakind saidUmmm....maybe in the past...but Greek and Roman today are in no way regarded the same as women of Muslim faith. They've evolved slightly over time...not sure about Muslim - since women and men are still not allowed to be in the same room at a mosque.


    "Evolved" is a big word.. I wont enter into it, since its subjective, .. in my opinion, modern day culture everywhere is extremely misogynist, including American culture... also, we were formerly talking about "culture" and now you mention "muslim faith" so that I really don't know what I'm arguing about anymore, as it goes from one thing to the other, I dont put everything into one single category, thats why I mentioned culture for the Romans and Greeks and Arabs, and religion for the Muslims

    as for the mosque thing with the separation of the sexes.. would you, as a woman, want to bend over and show your ass to the guys standing behind you while you're supposed to be praying? For that matter, would you expect the man to be able to keep his mind on the prayer if a woman bent over in front of him?

    Also, traditional Jewish AND Hindu places of worship AND many modern indigenous churches in South America separate the sexes.. for the simple reason that it is preferred for the attendants not to get distracted ... it has nothing to do with machismo

    Now, however, there is a machismo present in all of the world religions, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or buddhist... Practically all of them, save for certain sects, do not allow women to become priestesses, or leaders of worship.. this is a role reserved for men in all five... so yes, there is machismo in all these religions, but I do not think Islam as a religion is more misogynist.. as far as religious perscription goes, it is one of the least misogynist, equalled perhaps only by Buddhism, which is still misogynist..

    Like I said up here.. the only religions that are not misogynist are tribal religions, and even there there is strict separation... males are usually chiefs, but the women of the tribe usually make the decisions communally and for the household, the women can throw the men out of the house if the man displeases her etc. They are not subject to male "orders".. but there are restrictions, absolutely, this is true for all cultures, with certain roles ascribed to each sex, and among tribal cultures, also for the "in-between-gender" people


    Then answer me this: Why do some Muslim religions not let their women bury their men? I went to a Muslim funeral and the wife wasn't even allowed to be at the burial site of her own husband while a complete stranger (me) was.
    If you have such an issue with "muslim religions' dont practice it! DUH!icon_rolleyes.gif


    lol. I'm not Muslim. Just trying to see what others think about its oppression towards women.
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    Apr 22, 2012 11:14 PM GMT
    wonofakind said

    Then answer me this: Why do some Muslim religions not let their women bury their men? I went to a Muslim funeral and the wife wasn't even allowed to be at the burial site of her own husband while a complete stranger (me) was.

    This is most likely a tradition of the region. A Muslim woman has the right to bathe her dead husband, and thus has the right to be at the funeral.

    However, wailing at funeral is not permissible. Thus, anyone wailing can and should be kicked out.
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    Apr 25, 2012 9:47 PM GMT
    wonofakind Was I in the wrong for saying that his view of women was influenced cuz of his oppressive faith/culture towards women? Or did I hit the nail on the head and he just got offended and defensive (even tho it wasn't a personal attack on him)? Would love to hear your thoughts.

    jockfever: Hit the nail on the head. There are countless examples of women being second-class citizens under Islam.

    Item: "The Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences has determined that over 90 percent of Pakistani wives have been struck, beaten, or abused sexually -- for offenses on the order of cooking an unsatisfactory meal. Others were punished for failing to give birth to a male child" ("Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam")





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    Apr 25, 2012 9:56 PM GMT
    TropicalMark: ALL abrahamic religions are oppressive to women. Discussion over.

    GreenHopper: Most of the civilised world is oppressive to women, as they are farther removed from nature.. most tribal societies are not oppressive to women, as they tend to be closer to nature and thus respect females and the female principle more

    TropicalMark I quite agree with this!


    Jockever: So that's why western women flee to "tribal societies," giving up their status, their freedom, and their prosperity, so they can be barefoot, pregnant, wash their loincloths in the river, and let their boobs hang out? In reality women, and men, flee to civilized, tolerant, precious western societies.

    The Left's response to Islam is interesting, painting Islam and Bible-based religions with the same broad brush, which is bogus, and making excuses for Islam, e.g., blaming CULTURE.


    Greenwhopper: ...but yes, like you said, the Arab CULTURE is extremely oppressive

    jockfever: It's Islam. It's the Qur'an. "As long as men read and believe the Qur'an, women will be despised, second-class citizens, subject to the heartbreak and dehumanization of polygamy, the threat of an easy and capricious divorce, and worse--including beatings, false accusations, and the loss of virtually all of the most basic human freedoms. These are not phenomena of a group, party, or anything so ephemeral. They are the consequences of regarding the Qur'an as the absolute, eternally valid, and perfect word of Allah." Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, page 77.
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    Apr 25, 2012 10:01 PM GMT
    GreenWhopper in Islam, the divorce is religious... all a woman has to do is say to her husband three times "I divorce you" and then G-d sanctions the split....
    In that sense, Islam is the most female-friendly religion I know of, none of the other world religions give her that much power and independence off of her man...


    Jockfever: Instant divorce is for and by men under Sharia Law. Once divorced, a woman may be destitute, and men are presumed to have child custody rights under Sharia Law. Once divorced, the woman can be considered considered a "bad Muslim." Islam's primitive divorce ideas cause trouble in every civilized society where they are attempted, e.g., England, France, and the United States.
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    Apr 25, 2012 10:02 PM GMT
    jockfever saidTropicalMark: ALL abrahamic religions are oppressive to women. Discussion over.

    GreenHopper: Most of the civilised world is oppressive to women, as they are farther removed from nature.. most tribal societies are not oppressive to women, as they tend to be closer to nature and thus respect females and the female principle more

    TropicalMark I quite agree with this!


    Jockever: So that's why western women flee to "tribal societies," giving up their status, their freedom, and their prosperity, so they can be barefoot, pregnant, wash their loincloths in the river, and let their boobs hang out? In reality women, and men, flee to civilized, tolerant, precious western societies.

    The Left's response to Islam is interesting, painting Islam and Bible-based religions with the same broad brush, which is bogus, and making excuses for Islam, e.g., blaming CULTURE.


    Greenwhopper: ...but yes, like you said, the Arab CULTURE is extremely oppressive

    jockfever: It's Islam. It's the Qur'an. "As long as men read and believe the Qur'an, women will be despised, second-class citizens, subject to the heartbreak and dehumanization of polygamy, the threat of an easy and capricious divorce, and worse--including beatings, false accusations, and the loss of virtually all of the most basic human freedoms. These are not phenomena of a group, party, or anything so ephemeral. They are the consequences of regarding the Qur'an as the absolute, eternally valid, and perfect word of Allah." Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, page 77.
    abrahamic religions = your xstainity.. whether you like it or not.