Stigma Against Femininity

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    Apr 10, 2012 10:19 PM GMT
    We've all seen it.

    "Looking for straight or straight acting" "masc only" "no femmes" "I'm masc. u be too."

    Is this some sort of manifestation of self-hate in the gay community, insecurity about one's own perceived femininity, or just a matter of personal preference?

    I get it that someone might be into "manly" men sexually and others might just be out of luck, but what is it about being effeminate that makes people think these guys are any less capable of being a man? Shouldn't our conceptions about being a man be more about conducting yourself honorably, taking responsibility for yourself and your actions, and being honest and polite?

    As long as someone conducts themselves in an honorable and mature way, why should a proclivity towards queening out from time to time exclude them from the dating pool, or the hookup pool for that matter?
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    Apr 10, 2012 10:20 PM GMT
    And I'm sure this has already been hashed out before but i couldn't find that thread so my apologies to anyone whose tired of this discussion.
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    Apr 10, 2012 10:23 PM GMT
    Everyone has different preferences I suppose. I think it's more about personal preference than anything. Everybody has certain features they're attracted to and expect there significan other to meet that criteria.

    For me personally I like guys of all shapes and sizes. Muscular, chubby, skinny, ect, ect. I'm not very picky but guys with mustaches drive me wild icon_razz.gif

    So ya... I think it's just personal preference, really. Being online and meeting face to face are two completely different things.
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    Apr 10, 2012 10:27 PM GMT
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    Apr 10, 2012 11:05 PM GMT
    How come straight guys can say they like like blondes with big tits, or petite brunettes, or curvy Latin chicks and no militant heterosexual feels the need to butt in and accuse them of having an agenda or psychological disfunction... icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Apr 10, 2012 11:31 PM GMT
    MsclDrew saidHow come straight guys can say they like like blondes with big tits, or petite brunettes, or curvy Latin chicks and no militant heterosexual feels the need to butt in and accuse them of having an agenda or psychological disfunction... icon_rolleyes.gif


    Ouch. Of course everyone's entitled to their personal preferences. But what I was really trying to get at was the stigma surrounding effeminate gays. I have met plenty of guys who don't even want to be seen with an effeminate gay guy, or only want to hang out with "masculine" guys.

    I'm not trying to jump down your throat (insert bj joke here), but why shouldn't we be having this conversation? This is a big issue facing the gay community. How we interact with each other is just as important, if not more important than how we deal with society at large. If we can't tone down the hate amongst ourselves, how are we gonna be strong against the nut-jobs who are actively fighting to keep us in the closet?
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    Apr 10, 2012 11:32 PM GMT
    you forgot no oldies, twinks, and drama queens
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Apr 10, 2012 11:34 PM GMT
    DO YOU GO INTO A RESTAURANT, REFUSE TO LOOK AT THE MENU, AND TELL THE WAITER, "OH, JUST BRING ME ANYTHING ?"

    WHEN YOU'RE BUYING A NEW CAR, DO YOU TELL THE DEALER, "I DON'T CARE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE ?"

    HOW ABOUT WHEN YOU GO CLOTHES SHOPPING ? DO YOU TELL THE CLERK, "PLEASE PICK OUT 5 SHIRTS FOR ME ? I DON'T CARE WHAT COLOR. I DON'T CARE WHAT SIZE. I DON'T CARE WHAT FABRIC. SHORT SLEEVES ? LONG SLEEVES ? NO SLEEVES ? DOESN'T MATTER."

    IT SAVES EVERYBODY A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT YOU DON'T WANT.
  • Buddha

    Posts: 1767

    Apr 10, 2012 11:41 PM GMT
    I don't know, I'm just not attracted to it.

    I've been trying to find an answer to it. My guess is that heterosexuals have two different kinds of appreciation, idealisitc and sexual. They have the perfect man they idealize (body, face, etc), but are not attracted to but can attempt to attain; and then they have the sexual appreciation of the opposite sex of what their ideal partner is like.

    I think that, one of the reasons what you're explaining, is because some homosexual's idealistic and sexual appreciation is the same "target", sort to speak; we both want to sexually engage with someone who is the ideal man and be the ideal man. So there's kind of a circle going on where we try to be the ideal man, while trying to be with the ideal man; and whenever we are with someone, we confirm the traits of that person that are "idealistic" because we "are", at least supposedly, attracted to them, which in turns conditions them to emphasize those traits in order to increase their sexuality, etc. Yes I'm always this unclear when I write.
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    Apr 10, 2012 11:49 PM GMT
    why you trolling bro? I thought this topic was called no fats no fems?
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    Apr 10, 2012 11:59 PM GMT
    Glenn1388 saidOuch. Of course everyone's entitled to their personal preferences. But what I was really trying to get at was the stigma surrounding effeminate gays. I have met plenty of guys who don't even want to be seen with an effeminate gay guy, or only want to hang out with "masculine" guys.

    I'm not trying to jump down your throat (insert bj joke here), but why shouldn't we be having this conversation?


    We are having this conversation. About every 4 days on this site.
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    Apr 11, 2012 12:01 AM GMT
    Alright I think the Title may have been creating some confusion. So I changed it to Stigma Against Femininity.

    At the risk of creating even more drama:

    Not that there isn't an attraction component, but that aside, couldn't it be that stigma toward effeminate gay men be a kind of internalized homophobia/self-hate?

    I tend to favor the argument that homophobia is kinda like sexism turned on its ear, that is to say that to a lot of people, the worst thing a man can be is a woman. To see a man acting in a feminine manner reminds men of their own insecurities(in their own masculinity) and they treat that man as a threat, manifesting as hate/fear. If our notions of what it means to be a man were different, and not tied up with mannerisms/voice, then effeminate traits wouldn't be perceived as threatening.

    Also, I feel like the "it's just what i'm attracted to" argument doesnt really hold up here when you put it under a microscope. If you take an effeminate man, slap 40 extra pounds of muscle on their frame and give them a body fat percentage of 3, then everyone overlooks their mannerisms, and considers them manly because they look physically "manly."

    For the record, I have no problem with someone saying they only are interested in dating hot guys. It might be shallow but if what you are really turned off by is perceived femininity, then you wouldn't consider dating a muscle-bound queen. I think most guys who rule out feminine fellows really don't want a scrawny preppy swishy guy hanging around, potentially embarrassing them in front of friends or (god forbid) reminding them that they've been to more than one Cher concert themselves.
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    Apr 11, 2012 12:02 AM GMT
    Claystation saidwhy you trolling bro? I thought this topic was called no fats no fems?


    srry wasn't trying to troll or incite an argument.
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    Apr 11, 2012 12:09 AM GMT
    Simply put 8 out of 10 fem guys are bitchy (and what I mean by bitchy is they have a certain attitude that equates or borders on a really annoying girl) and this isn't just subject to skinny fem guys. This is also found in muscular fem guys as well, you know what I am talking about, the guy who looks like a butch fucking mountain man but when he talks a god damn purse falls out of his mouth.

    Also the butch masculine guys are subject to the douche label. I would say the ratio is about the same, 8 out of 10 are douchey.

    The pendulum swings both ways
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    Apr 11, 2012 12:13 AM GMT
    Again? icon_neutral.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 11, 2012 12:41 AM GMT
    Not against it. It just not hot to me.
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    Apr 11, 2012 12:53 AM GMT
    The OP is confusing preference and stigma. Preference is what you want for yourself and in your life; stigma is a projection of preference, with discriminatory behaviour and affects on others that do not conform to this preference. Two entirely different matters entirely.

    TL;DR
    A. Don't be butthurt if someone rejects your advances due to their preferences/attractions
    B. Be butthurt if they try to change you, use derogatory language, or prevent you from doing what you want to do
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    Apr 11, 2012 12:54 AM GMT
    DudeInNOVA saidAgain? icon_neutral.gif


    Yes, again. Apparently it is so *difficult* to come up with a new topic that is easily searchable in the forums.
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    Apr 11, 2012 1:04 AM GMT
    Glenn1388 saidWe've all seen it.

    Shouldn't our conceptions about being a man be more about conducting yourself honorably, taking responsibility for yourself and your actions, and being honest and polite?


    Yes, character is what makes a real man. That there are just as many types of gay men as there are many types of hetero men should be a given.

    If someone's stating they want a masculine man that's fine and harms no one; if the focus shifts to negatives ("spreading misery," I call it) then it reads wrong, seems insecure, not altogether masculine in its own right, or worse.
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    Apr 11, 2012 1:06 AM GMT
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    Apr 11, 2012 1:07 AM GMT
    intensity69 saidThe OP is confusing preference and stigma. Preference is what you want for yourself and in your life; stigma is a projection of preference, with discriminatory behaviour and affects on others that do not conform to this preference. Two entirely different matters entirely.

    TL;DR
    A. Don't be butthurt if someone rejects your advances due to their preferences/attractions
    B. Be butthurt if they try to change you, use derogatory language, or prevent you from doing what you want to do


    Ok well let's take preference out of it. Or at least i'll redefine what i mean in context of this argument. I think a lot of guys exclude feminine guys from consideration, not because they are turned off by it sexually, but because they are stigmatizing the feminine traits in the guy.

    Not necessarily saying that if you are turned off by effeminate guys you are homophobic, so if that's you, please disregard any implications of that which I made earlier.

    BUT... I think there's still a lot of animosity toward effeminate gay guys from other gays, especially insecure or newly out gay guys.

    AND... I guess I should pay more attention to the forums, didn't realize how played out this topic was. srry y'all.
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    Apr 11, 2012 1:10 AM GMT
    FINALLY! Someone has brought up a refreshing new topic. icon_cool.gif
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    Apr 11, 2012 1:12 AM GMT
    Glenn1388 saidAnd I'm sure this has already been hashed out before but i couldn't find that thread so my apologies to anyone whose tired of this discussion.




    You have been here since '07 and I am surprised that even the most casual user of this site would not have ran into one of these threads by now. There is a thread every few days about this subject and the flame war last for days.
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    Apr 11, 2012 1:14 AM GMT
    Someone messaged me and I wont point them out but they had some good points.

    "I think many guys are afraid to show their feminine side for fear of fitting the stereotypical gay man as projected by homophobes. Did you see how many people twisted the conversation to a choice of preference?

    You asked about why fems are discriminated against and many stated the red herring that they're just not attracted to fems. I'm not attracted to rednecks but I still treat them with respect."

    I'm not asking a question about preference. I'm more concerned with how effeminate guys are treated in the gay community. Generally, they don't seem to be treated well.
  • NerdLifter

    Posts: 1509

    Apr 11, 2012 1:15 AM GMT
    Iceblink said
    Glenn1388 saidAnd I'm sure this has already been hashed out before but i couldn't find that thread so my apologies to anyone whose tired of this discussion.


    You have been here since '07 and I am surprised that even the most casual user of this site would not have ran into one of these threads by now. There is a thread every few days about this subject and the flame war last for days.

    Flame_War.jpg