Austerity is Europe's mutual suicide-pact - Be Careful With Your Investments

  • metta

    Posts: 39107

    Apr 19, 2012 6:44 AM GMT
    Austerity is Europe's mutual suicide-pact

    http://boingboing.net/2012/04/18/austerity-is-europes-mutual.html
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    Apr 19, 2012 9:11 AM GMT
    Sadly, this isn't getting much play in the US media.
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    Apr 19, 2012 10:18 AM GMT
    Christian73 saidSadly, this isn't getting much play in the US media.

    No, although it was the daring brilliance of US Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt to spend on social services during the Great Depression of the 1930s, rather than to be austere, and to spend on public works projects, that saved the US from total ruin.

    Spending that Republicans opposed at the time, and are still opposing today, by their trying to eliminate all social safety net programs like Social Security & Medicare. Or to privatize them, to reduce benefits to people and create profits for Republican Party contributors.

    Right Wingers never change, they've just gotten more sophisticated in how they use the media to misrepresent their true selfish intentions. They even send their agents to shill for them on social media sites. icon_wink.gif
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    Apr 19, 2012 12:44 PM GMT
    Whether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.
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    Apr 19, 2012 1:04 PM GMT
    Austerity is the wrong policy at this time.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Apr 19, 2012 1:04 PM GMT
    You know what ....

    They tried this in the 80's with Margaret Thatcher and it guaranteed that another Conservative would not be elected for at least a decade

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    Apr 19, 2012 1:08 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
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    Apr 19, 2012 1:34 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.
    My causes are right on the money. Your attempt at deflecting the problems within a few specific countries by pointing to global issues makes little sense. If it did, these same measures would be felt by countries around the world, versus the handful of countries in southern Europe. Your intent is continual avoidance of the acknowledging the ultimate consequences of living beyond your means because it fundamentally challenges your core ideology.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.
    What I wrote above was very clear in not advocating or criticizing specific austerity measures. I dealt only with the causes of the current situation.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.
    Heroin addicts are much happier while their supply is currently being replenished.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
    It sure is.
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    Apr 19, 2012 1:34 PM GMT
    Key, and significant, policy investment in critical infrastructure creates sustainable economy.

    Examples:
    The Transcontinental Railway
    Hoover Dam
    The Eisenhower Interstate Highway System
    The Panama Canal
    The Golden Gate Bridge (she turns 75 on May 27th!)
    BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit)


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    Apr 19, 2012 1:43 PM GMT
    Caslon18453 saidAusterity is the wrong policy at this time.


    LMAO. My god do buffoons like you actually exist in the real world?
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    Apr 19, 2012 1:47 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.
    My causes are right on the money. Your attempt at deflecting the problems within a few specific countries by pointing to global issues makes little sense. If it did, these same measures would be felt by countries around the world, versus the handful of countries in southern Europe. Your intent is continual avoidance of the acknowledging the ultimate consequences of living beyond your means because it fundamentally challenges your core ideology.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.
    What I wrote above was very clear in not advocating or criticizing specific austerity measures. I dealt only with the causes of the current situation.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.
    Heroin addicts are much happier while their supply is currently being replenished.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
    It sure is.


    As I said, you refuse to acknowledge the actual causes of the economic problems in the US and Europe, namely a complete abrogation of raising revenue to pay for needed public services, investments, and, hell, even wars (which is unprecedented).

    30 years of "Reaganomics" and deregulation caused all the troubles we are seeing by starving governments of revenue and then blaming "spending".

    The countries that employed Keynsian policies during the Great Recession have all fared far better than those that embraced austerity. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Apr 19, 2012 1:47 PM GMT
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_sovereign_debt_crisis
    "The European sovereign debt crisis has resulted from a combination of complex factors, including the globalization of finance; easy credit conditions during the 2002–2008 period that encouraged high-risk lending and borrowing practices; international trade imbalances; real-estate bubbles that have since burst; slow economic growth in 2008 and thereafter; fiscal policy choices related to government revenues and expenses; and approaches used by nations to bailout troubled banking industries and private bondholders, assuming private debt burdens or socializing losses.[16][17] It is sometimes suggested that the European welfare state contributed to the disaster, but this is demonstrably false if one is to believe the most liberal Keynesian Economist"
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    Apr 19, 2012 1:50 PM GMT
    Socal said, "A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone."

    This could easily apply to the banks in all those, and in our, countries that took huge bailouts which they said they required, plunging countries into greater deficits.




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    Apr 19, 2012 1:52 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.


    Do you even know why austerity measures become a reality? An austerity measure is when someone runs out of money and needs to sell their house or their car because they were living beyond their means. An austerity measure is when someone realizes they have to cut out all vacations for the year because it can't be afforded. Austerity measures, in the context of what is happening in Europe, is not some "option", it is the course that has to be taken when there is no alternative.

    Who says that austerity measures improve economic conditions? OF COURSE they make things worse. Why would you even make such a ridiculous statement? It's like saying "foreclosures don't improve peoples' lives, they actually make things much worse for them".

    Srsly?

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    Apr 19, 2012 2:04 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.
    My causes are right on the money. Your attempt at deflecting the problems within a few specific countries by pointing to global issues makes little sense. If it did, these same measures would be felt by countries around the world, versus the handful of countries in southern Europe. Your intent is continual avoidance of the acknowledging the ultimate consequences of living beyond your means because it fundamentally challenges your core ideology.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.
    What I wrote above was very clear in not advocating or criticizing specific austerity measures. I dealt only with the causes of the current situation.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.
    Heroin addicts are much happier while their supply is currently being replenished.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
    It sure is.


    As I said, you refuse to acknowledge the actual causes of the economic problems in the US and Europe, namely a complete abrogation of raising revenue to pay for needed public services, investments, and, hell, even wars (which is unprecedented).

    30 years of "Reaganomics" and deregulation caused all the troubles we are seeing by starving governments of revenue and then blaming "spending".

    The countries that employed Keynsian policies during the Great Recession have all fared far better than those that embraced austerity. icon_rolleyes.gif

    Not only are you on the wrong side of history, but you are on the wrong side of common sense. Those who believe you can spend, spend, and then spend with no consequences will vote for Obama. Those who know better won't. It will be a challenge because Obama will also get votes from those who are promised things.
  • metta

    Posts: 39107

    Apr 19, 2012 3:30 PM GMT

    Greek town develops bartering system without euro

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17686384
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    Apr 19, 2012 3:33 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.


    Do you even know why austerity measures become a reality? An austerity measure is when someone runs out of money and needs to sell their house or their car because they were living beyond their means. An austerity measure is when someone realizes they have to cut out all vacations for the year because it can't be afforded. Austerity measures, in the context of what is happening in Europe, is not some "option", it is the course that has to be taken when there is no alternative.

    Who says that austerity measures improve economic conditions? OF COURSE they make things worse. Why would you even make such a ridiculous statement? It's like saying "foreclosures don't improve peoples' lives, they actually make things much worse for them".

    Srsly?



    Mock -

    Stop comparing national government's to a household. It's a ridiculous argument, as is comparing same to corporations. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Apr 19, 2012 4:35 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.


    Do you even know why austerity measures become a reality? An austerity measure is when someone runs out of money and needs to sell their house or their car because they were living beyond their means. An austerity measure is when someone realizes they have to cut out all vacations for the year because it can't be afforded. Austerity measures, in the context of what is happening in Europe, is not some "option", it is the course that has to be taken when there is no alternative.

    Who says that austerity measures improve economic conditions? OF COURSE they make things worse. Why would you even make such a ridiculous statement? It's like saying "foreclosures don't improve peoples' lives, they actually make things much worse for them".

    Srsly?



    Mock -

    Stop comparing national government's to a household. It's a ridiculous argument, as is comparing same to corporations. icon_rolleyes.gif


    The principle is the same -- there's no more money!
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    Apr 19, 2012 4:36 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.


    Do you even know why austerity measures become a reality? An austerity measure is when someone runs out of money and needs to sell their house or their car because they were living beyond their means. An austerity measure is when someone realizes they have to cut out all vacations for the year because it can't be afforded. Austerity measures, in the context of what is happening in Europe, is not some "option", it is the course that has to be taken when there is no alternative.

    Who says that austerity measures improve economic conditions? OF COURSE they make things worse. Why would you even make such a ridiculous statement? It's like saying "foreclosures don't improve peoples' lives, they actually make things much worse for them".

    Srsly?



    Mock -

    Stop comparing national government's to a household. It's a ridiculous argument, as is comparing same to corporations. icon_rolleyes.gif


    The principle is the same -- there's no more money!


    No. It's not. Households don't manage their currency. They cannot tax household members. There are many other differences. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Apr 19, 2012 4:39 PM GMT
    There's no money?

    Holy crap . Then you better tell the oil companies that the governmental teat that they've been sucking is about to run dry

    And the Bush tax cuts that sent is into a tailspin along with the Big Pharm gift of Med Part D need to expire
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    Apr 19, 2012 5:59 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.


    Do you even know why austerity measures become a reality? An austerity measure is when someone runs out of money and needs to sell their house or their car because they were living beyond their means. An austerity measure is when someone realizes they have to cut out all vacations for the year because it can't be afforded. Austerity measures, in the context of what is happening in Europe, is not some "option", it is the course that has to be taken when there is no alternative.

    Who says that austerity measures improve economic conditions? OF COURSE they make things worse. Why would you even make such a ridiculous statement? It's like saying "foreclosures don't improve peoples' lives, they actually make things much worse for them".

    Srsly?



    Mock -

    Stop comparing national government's to a household. It's a ridiculous argument, as is comparing same to corporations. icon_rolleyes.gif


    The principle is the same -- there's no more money!


    No. It's not. Households don't manage their currency. They cannot tax household members. There are many other differences. icon_rolleyes.gif


    Semantics. They can ask for rent! Plainly put, austerity measures are the result of having no alternatives. No one regards that as "good" as much as unavoidable.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 19, 2012 9:22 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said

    Semantics. They can ask for rent! Plainly put, austerity measures are the result of having no alternatives. No one regards that as "good" as much as unavoidable.


    It's not semantics. Who is paying rent?

    And austerity measures are a choice, employed by right-wing regimes to bleed the public coffers and give money to their patrons.

    There is no country in the history that has ever employed austerity measures to fix it's economy. In every case, money moves form the public to the few.

    Let's also realize that you have chance your rationale for supporting austerity measures. Before it was to help the economy. Now it's "there's no other choice."

    Ridiculous.
  • conservativej...

    Posts: 2465

    Apr 19, 2012 9:35 PM GMT
    Had the performing economies of Europe -- and there are few -- not bailed Greece out, what is now called austerity would be total abject desolation.

    I think the Greeks are so stupid as to have gotten where they are that they deserve their desolation. Of course, that goes for the other European countries who do nothing but live off debt.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 19, 2012 9:40 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidWhether the austerity measures are too austere, or whether there should be a safety net maintained or increased is something that can be debated. There is much discussion about austerity making the woes more severe and leading to increased social destabilization. There is no doubt people are suffering.

    The article, along with socialists, social democrats, whatever you want to call them, characterize austerity as "a means of recovering from recession". They fail to point out that the current situation has resulted from countries increasing massive and unsustainable debt by living beyond their means, funded by a combination of increasing debt along with taxes to disincentivize the economys' job and wealth creators. Those on the left take no responsibility for their policies over the years that have led to this difficult situation. They fail to acknowledge that living beyond your means is not unlike other addictions.

    A good analogy can be made to a heroin addict who can no longer pay to sustain his habit. His credit cards are either maxed out or withdrawn. He can no longer borrow from friends. He lost his job. He has already emptied the piggy banks belonging to family members. His world is crashing down on him not only because he can no longer buy heroin, but also because he can no longer buy what many consider basic necessities. He is angry and blaming everyone.

    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.

    I agree with above comments that this should receive more press in the US. I doubt it will among much of the media outlets, because the lessons that continue to escape the left are obvious to most everyone else except the less sophisticated whose votes can be bought with the same promises.


    John - Since you refuse to accept the actual causes of the global economic crisis (extractionary economic policies, skyrocketing inequality and lax regulation), any analysis you try to provide is completely erroneous.
    My causes are right on the money. Your attempt at deflecting the problems within a few specific countries by pointing to global issues makes little sense. If it did, these same measures would be felt by countries around the world, versus the handful of countries in southern Europe. Your intent is continual avoidance of the acknowledging the ultimate consequences of living beyond your means because it fundamentally challenges your core ideology.

    Further, the claim by you and others, including politicians in the US and Europe, claimed that austerity measures would improve economic conditions and, instead, they have made things far worse for those who are suffering.
    What I wrote above was very clear in not advocating or criticizing specific austerity measures. I dealt only with the causes of the current situation.

    Despite your claims the the Obama stimulus didn't help the economy, the US is doing much better than our European counterparts that pursued austerity measures.
    Heroin addicts are much happier while their supply is currently being replenished.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
    It sure is.


    As I said, you refuse to acknowledge the actual causes of the economic problems in the US and Europe, namely a complete abrogation of raising revenue to pay for needed public services, investments, and, hell, even wars (which is unprecedented).

    30 years of "Reaganomics" and deregulation caused all the troubles we are seeing by starving governments of revenue and then blaming "spending".

    The countries that employed Keynsian policies during the Great Recession have all fared far better than those that embraced austerity. icon_rolleyes.gif

    Not only are you on the wrong side of history, but you are on the wrong side of common sense. Those who believe you can spend, spend, and then spend with no consequences will vote for Obama. Those who know better won't. It will be a challenge because Obama will also get votes from those who are promised things.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Well SoCal, as usual you are so blinded by your partisanship that cannot see your face for your nose. It was from repubs from Reagan through Bush #2 who ran up these debts, particularly the last one with his godamn unpaid for wars and the list goes on, These repubs set the ball rolling and you cannot ignore what was inheritied by Obama and sudden'y blame it all on his administration.

    Those who backed the bushies and voted for tax cuts while he was Spend Spend Spending got us here and now bygod those same people are stupidly fighting reinstating the tax levels that had our economy running well during the 90's. This cannot be fixed by simple 'austerity' cuts then adding even more tax cuts for the wealthy like Cantor wants. IT WON'T WORK we are too deep into this debt and budget shortfualls to not increase revenue.

    SoCal, it was your party's Spend Spend Spending that got us here, now they need to face facts that tax reveues have to go back to previous levels. Wake up old man !!
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    Apr 19, 2012 10:13 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    The people who voted in the socialists and other leftists bear much of the blame, but many of the less sophisticated believed the politicians' promises of a never-ending stream of living beyond their means. The stream ended.


    Except that Europe had more right-wing than left-wing governments, in the years leading up to the start of the global financial crisis. Berlusconi (Prime Minister of Italy 1994 to 1995, 2001 to 2006, and 2008 to 2011) was about as right-wing as it is possible to get in a western democracy. That did not prevent the Italian economy from almost collapsing last year, when Italian public debt stood at 116% of GDP, ranking as the second biggest debt ratio in Europe after Greece.

    And let us not forget the immediate cause or trigger of the global financial crisis was the bursting of the United States housing bubble, which peaked in approximately 2005–2006 (in the middle of Bush's 8 year term).