The Rationality Of Suicide

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 4:33 AM GMT
    Yale University lecture.

    Part 1.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MajfZIyHP8U

    Part 2.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKbV8NcyCrk

    I watched this lecture series a few weeks ago after running across it on YouTube (mostly because I was bored and had plenty of time to watch 1.5 hrs of lecture from a university that's I'd probably never be accepted to even if I tried). Totally changed how I view suicide.

    PS. Note that I'm still alive. This is not a promotion of suicide. It's a philosophical insight into how and if it can be rationalized.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 4:47 AM GMT
    And here's part three which I have open currently on another window. Excellent lecture. Thanx for bringing this to the attention of this forum.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 4:51 AM GMT
    *watching... but it's long as shit. Won't be responding for a whiiiile.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 6:53 AM GMT
    theantijock saidAnd here's part three which I have open currently on another window. Excellent lecture. Thanx for bringing this to the attention of this forum.

    Thanks! I totally forgot about the third part (slept since watching them - memory faded). icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 2:36 PM GMT
    I see there are vids of his entire semester. So far I've watched all three of his suicide series. I'll be watching every vid the professor posted from his semester. I fuckin' love this guy. I would so Ace his class.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19133

    Apr 29, 2012 2:37 PM GMT
    Is there a cliff notes version? icon_eek.gif
  • dj12

    Posts: 55

    Apr 29, 2012 3:03 PM GMT
    SkinnyBitch shouldn't be watching this.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 3:27 PM GMT
    I love his ability to articulate/inhabit all the wrong arguments while still maintaining a coherent talk.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 3:31 PM GMT
    Can someone who's watched it just post the bulletpoint/cliffnotes summary?
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Apr 29, 2012 4:03 PM GMT
    TerraFirma saidCan someone who's watched it just post the bulletpoint/cliffnotes summary?


    Good point, clearly worth listening to, but with other things going, it would be helpful to have an abbreviation.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 4:21 PM GMT
    I can give you the synopsis of all three videos in a single sentence, but you're not going to like it.

    The professor is discussing how people should learn to think for themselves.

    He does that by deconstructing fairly typical thoughts about suicide, isolating the various aspects and catagorizing them to be able to study each in detail and in various applications to see where logic falls apart, thus giving the students tools to analyze their own thought processes.

    Particularly, he looks at thoughts/actions from a moral and also from a rational basis and notes that thoughts or actions can be one without being the other, offering examples of each variation.

    He shows how decisions can be measured by weighing projected results and accounting for sum totals of experiences.

    He offers the student an option from their spoon fed upbringing, that should they muster the courage to challenge their own thinking, they might find deeper truths than the fairly tale story of life which they likely take for granted.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 4:39 PM GMT
    My best friend rationalized his suicide but the problem is that rationalization by definition takes things out of context . Cutting the head off of a drum to see where the sound comes from seems like a rational course of study but obviously it is not a useful one.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 29, 2012 4:44 PM GMT
    Alpha13 saidMy best friend rationalized his suicide but the problem is that rationalization by definition takes things out of context . Cutting the head off of a drum to see where the sound comes from seems like a rational course of study but obviously it is not a useful one.


    Unless of course if you have another drum. The professor approaches the subject from both an atheistic and a nonspiritual point of view. His assumption is that the end of life is the end of experience. 'That even nothingness is not a condition. The professor discusses in the vid utilitarian views of suicide.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 01, 2012 7:40 AM GMT
    dj12 saidSkinnyBitch shouldn't be watching this.


    Haha, why shouldn't I?
    It's not an advertisement endorsing suicide.

    I'm about halfway through it now.

    So far:
    He over-explains things. There are times when I'm like "yeah I got it already! retelling it twice more is unnecessary". But maybe that's because I was already on the same page as him, and for people who think about it from say, a religious viewpoint might need extra explaining to grasp it. This is what the J and L keys are for in Youtube videos. Try it!
    That graph! I have made that same graph a couple of times in visually describing to people what my happiness level was. So cool that he busted it out! Damn, I should have copyrighted it.
    There's one part of the graph he missed. Being at 0 (neutral) isn't enough to end one's life. Suicide is not an easy process. It involves pain, discomfort, momentum, opportunity, decisiveness, planning, and/or bravery. There's a threshold where one's quality of life needs to drop below to mobilize one's self to commit. Think laundry: you don't get up and do laundry as soon as you have a full load of dirty clothes. It usually takes either the pile to get really big, or you running out of underwear before you're like "shit, I'd better get this done!"
    The example about the person having a short dip in their quality of life and it being irrational to kill themselves is only valid if we see the rest of the graph. For them, that dip could be the beginning of a decline that never comes back up, so it's neither rational nor irrational, unless there is some clue that the problem will be temporary.
  • MikemikeMike

    Posts: 6932

    May 01, 2012 8:47 AM GMT
    dj12 saidSkinnyBitch shouldn't be watching this.

    yeah he should and read all he can on the subject, but probably won't because he has all the answers already and has it worse than everybody else. Not really though, my cousin died of cancer at 32 it was long, very painful and he suffered greatly before he died even morphine wouldn't stop his pain, but no u have it worse right SB??? Woe is you.icon_idea.gif You're not dying at the moment and you live in a free country-now go and live the shit outta your life because we all are not promised a tomorrowicon_idea.gif Worry is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but gets you nowhere. Sorry to be so blunt, BUT this much I know-your life isn't as bad as you think!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 01, 2012 9:04 AM GMT
    MikemikeMike said
    dj12 saidSkinnyBitch shouldn't be watching this.

    yeah he should and read all he can on the subject, but probably won't because he has all the answers already and has it worse than everybody else. Not really though, my cousin died of cancer at 32 it was long, very painful and he suffered greatly before he died even morphine wouldn't stop his pain, but no u have it worse right SB??? Woe is you.icon_idea.gif You're not dying at the moment and you live in a free country-now go and live the shit outta your life because we all are not promised a tomorrowicon_idea.gif Worry is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but gets you nowhere. Sorry to be so blunt, BUT this much I know-your life isn't as bad as you think!


    Oh my,
    tumblr_lga6ubP44B1qzbj1e.gif
    1. Never said I had anything worse than anyone else.
    2. You're confusing "blunt" with "abraisive".
    3. If you read any of my posts, you'd see that I am watching it.
    4. Physical pain is the not the only "real" pain.
    5. You are not the only one who lost someone from cancer, nor someone young, nor someone who battled it long and with pain. Woe is not you either.
    6. I'm sorry I'm not the person you want me to be, for you to expel these feelings of distaste on. I figure it must be therapeudic for you, given your loss. Still, it's healthier to get them out through talking with a pro, or at least a wise person than through internet hating. I wish you well in that.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 01, 2012 9:08 AM GMT
    MuchMoreThanMuscle said
    theantijock said
    Alpha13 saidMy best friend rationalized his suicide but the problem is that rationalization by definition takes things out of context . Cutting the head off of a drum to see where the sound comes from seems like a rational course of study but obviously it is not a useful one.


    Unless of course if you have another drum.


    What sort of ridiculous rebuttal is that? So if one drum is destroyed then who cares since there's another one? I guess we can infer the same expendability when it comes to human beings. After all there are billions of "us" on the planet.



    When I read that, I thought he was saying "if you still have another drum, you get to do both: understand it and play it." I wasn't thinking it was about human life being thrown away, but maybe I was wrong. In any case, it was a sucky example. It's not really rational to destroy a drum to find out how it works.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 01, 2012 10:17 AM GMT
    MikemikeMike said
    dj12 saidSkinnyBitch shouldn't be watching this.

    yeah he should and read all he can on the subject, but probably won't because he has all the answers already and has it worse than everybody else. Not really though, my cousin died of cancer at 32 it was long, very painful and he suffered greatly before he died even morphine wouldn't stop his pain, but no u have it worse right SB??? Woe is you.icon_idea.gif You're not dying at the moment and you live in a free country-now go and live the shit outta your life because we all are not promised a tomorrowicon_idea.gif Worry is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but gets you nowhere. Sorry to be so blunt, BUT this much I know-your life isn't as bad as you think!



    Why not bully someone on a thread with a subject suicide eh? Nice job bra
  • MikemikeMike

    Posts: 6932

    May 02, 2012 5:25 AM GMT
    It's called tough love-my brother is a PHD who deals with people with panic, depression and anxiety. I have heard all to often from him and one of my friends from college who is an EMT. Most suicide attempts where the people survives totally regret their decision. SB I know all too well that mental pain and anguish can be more painful than physical pain. You're still here and you should thank the girl you said saved you.icon_idea.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 02, 2012 1:55 PM GMT
    Clouseau said
    MikemikeMike said
    dj12 saidSkinnyBitch shouldn't be watching this.

    yeah he should and read all he can on the subject, but probably won't because he has all the answers already and has it worse than everybody else. Not really though, my cousin died of cancer at 32 it was long, very painful and he suffered greatly before he died even morphine wouldn't stop his pain, but no u have it worse right SB??? Woe is you.icon_idea.gif You're not dying at the moment and you live in a free country-now go and live the shit outta your life because we all are not promised a tomorrowicon_idea.gif Worry is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but gets you nowhere. Sorry to be so blunt, BUT this much I know-your life isn't as bad as you think!



    Why not bully someone on a thread with a subject suicide eh? Nice job bra

    +
    MikemikeMike saidIt's called tough love-my brother is a PHD who deals with people with panic, depression and anxiety. I have heard all to often from him and one of my friends from college who is an EMT. Most suicide attempts where the people survives totally regret their decision. SB I know all too well that mental pain and anguish can be more painful than physical pain. You're still here and you should thank the girl you said saved you.icon_idea.gif

    =
    Clouseau might have missed picking up on a clue as to M3's comment by having not connected to this thread another http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2332064 wherein someone, who I'll no longer bother with, couldn't have been much less empathic towards that thread's OP expressing obvious pain and possibly at that time in eminent danger.

    There was another discussion--I don't recall now in which thread--wherein that person also vehemently complained that a friend of his had prevented his own suicide. Oh the horror! And so without connecting those other posts, you might think to come to the rescue against perceived bullying but what is merely commentary on the obvious.

    The miscommunication of not making connections to relevent conversation in other threads is less atrocious to appropriate foruming than what others do to presumptuously stir shit by expropriating one thought of a poster's from another, one sentence from even its concurrent other from within the very same fucking paragraph, and ill-conceive of it by projecting upon it every last drop of horseshit from within the reader's own mind which does nothing but to make for exhaustive conversation with those who never learn but who are stuck in patterns they refuse to address; so, on a continuing basis, it's just not worth the effort without charging a fee.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 03, 2012 5:12 AM GMT
    SkinnyBitch saidThe example about the person having a short dip in their quality of life and it being irrational to kill themselves is only valid if we see the rest of the graph. For them, that dip could be the beginning of a decline that never comes back up, so it's neither rational nor irrational, unless there is some clue that the problem will be temporary.
    That was the whole point of me making this thread, and the most important part of the entire lecture.
    It's a very collegiate way of saying "it [probably] gets better." icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 03, 2012 1:54 PM GMT
    Trollileo said
    SkinnyBitch said
    MuchMoreThanMuscle said
    theantijock said
    Alpha13 saidMy best friend rationalized his suicide but the problem is that rationalization by definition takes things out of context . Cutting the head off of a drum to see where the sound comes from seems like a rational course of study but obviously it is not a useful one.


    Unless of course if you have another drum.


    What sort of ridiculous rebuttal is that? So if one drum is destroyed then who cares since there's another one? I guess we can infer the same expendability when it comes to human beings. After all there are billions of "us" on the planet.



    When I read that, I thought he was saying "if you still have another drum, you get to do both: understand it and play it." I wasn't thinking it was about human life being thrown away, but maybe I was wrong. In any case, it was a sucky example. It's not really rational to destroy a drum to find out how it works.
    Only because the people who built it made it so you didn't have to take it apart to see how it works.

    Also, are we talking about snares? Bass? Timpani? Toms?


    This is a prime example of how you can't, even with effort, dumb yourself down enough to communicate with some of the people here, They make it too damned tedious. Not you Troli who seems to be just stream of consciousness rolling in what you found there, as you seem to enjoy doing though I suspect you don't always stay aware of what effect that might have; but with the other two, that even when speaking in the vernacular, it is impossible to get through all of the prebaggaged shit so many people not just carry with them in their heads but that they then try to smear upon others. It's so gross.

    Out of character for me and towards the person who I do not enjoy engaging and after this post I hope to never again, at least not until he gets his shit together--which I thought I saw happening at some point but then he seemed to fall back into it--what he thought to portray as a rebuttal was nothing of the sort, but was simply an empathizing with a poster on the loss of his dear friend.

    So let me just spell this the f u c k out.

    My post, which continued to relate to the OP in discussion but which also empathized with the post prior to mine was unfairly uncontextualized as it was bastardized by another poster.

    It originally read thusly:

    theantijock said
    Alpha13 saidMy best friend rationalized his suicide but the problem is that rationalization by definition takes things out of context . Cutting the head off of a drum to see where the sound comes from seems like a rational course of study but obviously it is not a useful one.


    Unless of course if you have another drum. The professor approaches the subject from both an atheistic and a nonspiritual point of view. His assumption is that the end of life is the end of experience. 'That even nothingness is not a condition. The professor discusses in the vid utilitarian views of suicide.


    Alpha13 indicates that "cutting the head off a drum to see where the sound comes from" is his friend who cut his life short to see from wence he came. Alpha sadly notes that this was part of his friends rationalization process.

    I responded to that by noting that the rationalization could make sense in the framework of thinking that life continues after death, thus "another drum". And for anyone who can follow a thought, you'd know that was the case because I then immediately follow that up with how the professor related his thoughts, that he comes from an assumption that there is no other drum. This also goes back to what the professor said, which Alpha so eloquently offered his sad experience with his friend as an example of, how something can be rational in a sense, and yet not make sense in another sense, whether that's another rationality, a consideration of morality, etc., as described in the video.

    This is why I put so many people on ignore. There are so many other good people here with heartfelt, valid things they share for free that why should I be spending this time addressing the shitflingers when I don't get paid for that. Certainly, this has not been at my pleasure. Peace out.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 03, 2012 5:28 PM GMT
    MikemikeMike saidIt's called tough love-my brother is a PHD who deals with people with panic, depression and anxiety. I have heard all to often from him and one of my friends from college who is an EMT. Most suicide attempts where the people survives totally regret their decision. SB I know all too well that mental pain and anguish can be more painful than physical pain. You're still here and you should thank the girl you said saved you.icon_idea.gif

    There is no love within you for me, tough or otherwise. It's actually called treating someone else like shit and then patting yourself on the back. You should watch the video, particularly the section about "saving" a life not necessarily being a favour if it isn't what the person wants.

    theantijock saidClouseau might have missed picking up on a clue as to M3's comment by having not connected to this thread another http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2332064 wherein someone, who I'll no longer bother with, couldn't have been much less empathic towards that thread's OP expressing obvious pain and possibly at that time in eminent danger.

    There was another discussion--I don't recall now in which thread--wherein that person also vehemently complained that a friend of his had prevented his own suicide. Oh the horror! And so without connecting those other posts, you might think to come to the rescue against perceived bullying but what is merely commentary on the obvious.

    The miscommunication of not making connections to relevent conversation in other threads is less atrocious to appropriate foruming than what others do to presumptuously stir shit by expropriating one thought of a poster's from another, one sentence from even its concurrent other from within the very same fucking paragraph, and ill-conceive of it by projecting upon it every last drop of horseshit from within the reader's own mind which does nothing but to make for exhaustive conversation with those who never learn but who are stuck in patterns they refuse to address; so, on a continuing basis, it's just not worth the effort without charging a fee.

    Whether you like me or not, it was still bullying. It's nothing new though, so Clouseau doesn't need to trouble himself, but I appreciate the post.

    I am totally willing to talk with you, theantijock because this seemed to blow up. I don't dislike you personally, but in the other thread, I do think your suggestion to call the police on someone would be patronizing. Just that one suggestion, not everything you are. Maybe every other thing you think of is the opposite of patronizing, who knows? A friendship is not in the cards, because I don't stay friends with people who become abusive to others. But I have no beef with you (except your damn run-on sentences which make what I quoted damn hard to read! geez louise), and would talk to you to see what this is all about and if neutrality is possible.

    Someone please quote this so theantijock can see.
  • rockinb

    Posts: 16

    May 03, 2012 5:35 PM GMT
    Didn't Emile Durkheim write an entire book on this. Reinventing the wheel it seems...
  • Trepeat

    Posts: 546

    May 04, 2012 5:13 AM GMT
    I feel that as sentient beings capable of a broad range of thought and emotion, it would be an absolute waste of miraculous perceptual experience to take our own lives. Being human, for all its horrendous downsides, is an amazing gift that truly defies probability and comprehension. Even if the world kicks your ass right up until it snuffs you out, that chance to experience life is something to be cherished and celebrated.