BOY, THIS IS SAD

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 20, 2008 4:06 PM GMT
    Several days ago, I put up a post stating that I was going to start putting together some PSA's (Public Service Announcements) with the idea of getting us California Gay men out to vote in November against the ballot initiative that will repeal our right to marry in California. In that post, I asked for any help and support any of you could offer.
    I've gotten a whopping TWO, count 'em, TWO responses. (Thank you to those two fellas who responded, by the way)
    I look at these boards every day, and I see overwhelming responses for fluff topics such as
    "WHAT KIND DO YOU HAVE?"
    "TROLLS AT THE GYM"
    "I'VE BEEN WEARING BOXERS LATELY"
    And so on. But to my thread? The silence is deafening.

    Guys, if we don't get off our asses NOW and start getting out of the gyms, out of the clubs where we love to dance with our newly-buffed bodies to show the world how HOTTT we are, if we don't get out of the bath houses and START GETTING POLITICALLY ACTIVE, we'll never see the rights we deserve.

    For all the bitching and moaning many of us do about how we deserve equal rights, frankly we don't deserve anything unless we're willing to work for it. You didn't just wake up with a hot, hard body, did you? No, most of you work out 5 days a week to achieve that goal. Well, the goal of political and social equality is far more important, frankly, than getting ripped and buffed. And if we don't act and work now to ensure our rights are ratified and sanctified under the law, then sooner rather than later, we'll have no rights left at all. If you don't care about getting married, hey there's nothing wrong with that. But we're in a political and social danger zone right now, and there are VERY ACTIVE social and religious groups making very REAL progress in using the legal and voting process to make sure we are kept in the closet as third-class citizens forever, and most of us are simply hiding our heads in the sand (or the gym) and ignoring our impending disenfranchisement.
    And when it happens, if we don't act now and stay vigilant, it'll be nobody's fault but our own.

    I for one am not willing to live in the closet. You don't have to send me money, or work on these PSA's with me, but at least a show of support from people willing to network with me on this, might go a long way toward making our rights a final reality.

  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Jul 20, 2008 4:12 PM GMT
    I can understand your irritation, but remember, the vast majority of us on this site do not live in California and watch the events with interest... but.

    How is that going to affect my life on a daily basis?

    You might argue that assistance given can open the door to initiatives in other states and that this is just the beginning of this kind of change (which is an arguable point). Rather than "marriage", assistance given helps recognize basic rights that gay men and women should possess.. (good argument to someone that might live in Kansas)......
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    Jul 20, 2008 4:16 PM GMT
    You work in he business. Most of us do not. Perhaps a queer fitness forum is a bad place to network for this. I donate money regularly to organizations like HRC or the Empire State Pride Agenda, but I don't know you from Adam and am not inclined to send you money to get this done.

    Did you contact HRC or Equality California? They would be much better able to put you to work than a collection of strangers online.
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    Jul 20, 2008 4:21 PM GMT
    I can see how a victory in California would influence the entire country...and a defeat will be a great setback.

    BTW, have you gotten any feedback or guidance about how to produce a PSA?
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    Jul 20, 2008 4:24 PM GMT
    HndsmKansan saidI can understand your irritation, but remember, the vast majority of us on this site do not live in California and watch the events with interest... but.

    How is that going to affect my life on a daily basis?

    You might argue that assistance given can open the door to initiatives in other states and that this is just the beginning of this kind of change (which is an arguable point). Rather than "marriage", assistance given helps recognize basic rights that gay men and women should possess.. (good argument to someone that might live in Kansas)......


    Well, you pretty much make the point right there. The more states that allow us the equality of marriage, the harder it will be for other states to discriminate against Gay marriage. It was the same for interracial marriage a couple of generations ago. Most states wouldn't allow it. But as more and more states fell in line with the simple common sense of allowing people the right to love and marry whom they chose (granted, heterosexually), the harder it became for the more bigoted states to justify such racial bigotry. It will work the same for same-sex marriage, but right now, we're still at a point of imbalance, and we need as much weight on our side as we can get, or the balance will shift against us, past the tipping-point, in favor of bigotry. And if that happens, we are ALL, Gay and straight, one step closer to seeing America becoming a theocracy rather than a democratic republic as our Founders envisioned.
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    Jul 20, 2008 4:35 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidYou work in he business. Most of us do not. Perhaps a queer fitness forum is a bad place to network for this. I donate money regularly to organizations like HRC or the Empire State Pride Agenda, but I don't know you from Adam and am not inclined to send you money to get this done.

    Did you contact HRC or Equality California? They would be much better able to put you to work than a collection of strangers online.


    First, I'm not asking for money here. Send a letter, speak out. Express support, that's what I'm asking. Of course, if you DID want to send money, I'd make sure you knew exactly how it was being used, and you'd be credited in the campaign as a contributor, assuming I get a website started. I've worked over the years with HRC and I've covered their events as a journalist, and frankly these days, they don't really care to get much done unless it looks good for their bottom line. They are ineffective. They have become, over the last 10 years, a paper tiger, and those who are seriously politically active in the Gay community have become very disillusioned with HRC.

    All these organizations are great, and they mean well, but without the support and power inherent in the direct action of each of us as citizens, we won't see any change.
    And just because you don't live in California, don't think you are insulated from the repercussions of what happens here. Every politician and lobbyist knows the old saying, "As goes California, so goes the nation."

    And no, I don't work in "the business." I am a fine artist and a video editor, and a journalist, not a politician. And who cares what field I work in? You're Gay, as am I. That's our commonality. That's why this is important to me. Just because you donate money to some organizations doesn't mean you should pat yourself on the back, and honestly the tone of your words seems quite isolationist. It's our responsibility to do more than just sit back and donate money. Write a letter to a congressman, either in California or another state. Write an editorial to a newspaper. DO SOMETHING.
    Considering ourselves "strangers on line" is the very opposite of having a forum like this, where so many of us use the term "The RJ family." We are a community, we do have a great deal in common, and it's time we band together and show it!
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    Jul 20, 2008 4:40 PM GMT
    Caslon5000 saidI can see how a victory in California would influence the entire country...and a defeat will be a great setback.

    BTW, have you gotten any feedback or guidance about how to produce a PSA?


    I've produced several before, including the first AIDS Awareness PSA's ever seen in the U.S. back in 1984 (too bad I wasn't smart enough to follow my own advice on THAT one, huh?). I'm having a meeting tomorrow with a company in Downtown L.A that has several websites for viral video, including one called outoftheclosettelevision.com
    Hopefully we can, with their help, start the ball rolling.
    And it's nice to see that you understand the ramifications of what could happen here in regard to the rest of the country. Too few people seem to see that. THANKS!
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    Jul 20, 2008 4:45 PM GMT
    I will be interested in hearing how your meeting goes. Good luck!
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Jul 20, 2008 5:18 PM GMT
    I have a feeling that a great many more gay people just don't care all that much about "Gay Marriage" one way or the other than you may want to believe
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    Jul 20, 2008 5:26 PM GMT
    HndsmKansan saidI can understand your irritation, but remember, the vast majority of us on this site do not live in California and watch the events with interest... but.



    This is especially true on my part. I'm in a different country halfway around the world, so I don't speak up much on threads regarding action in other parts of the globe (pride parades, petitions, politics, etc.)

    Doesn't mean I don't care though. But if I started a thread asking for support on the local GLBT rights organization in the Philippines I wouldn't expect to get much responses from those outside our country. icon_confused.gif

    Had an experience with a thread I started about a local incident concerning a gay man and some doctors and it garnered zero responses, precisely because it was a local political scandal and wouldn't affect those outside our country.
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Jul 20, 2008 5:30 PM GMT
    CuriousJock is right, and many on this board have expressed their feelings on gay marriage, from those that want the right, those that don't care one way or the other, and those who are against it. Whatever their opinions, they're entitled to them, and each opinion is equally valid.

    I will say that it's a bit presumptuous of you to assume that the guys on here are doing nothing regarding this issue just because they didn't respond to your post.

    I hope your efforts go well. Good luck!

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    Jul 20, 2008 5:52 PM GMT
    ShawnTX saidCuriousJock is right, and many on this board have expressed their feelings on gay marriage, from those that want the right, those that don't care one way or the other, and those who are against it. Whatever their opinions, they're entitled to them, and each opinion is equally valid.

    I will say that it's a bit presumptuous of you to assume that the guys on here are doing nothing regarding this issue just because they didn't respond to your post.

    I hope your efforts go well. Good luck!



    I appreciate your good wishes.
    Having said that, I'm gonna ruffle a lot of feathers here with what I'm about to say.

    No, such opinions are NOT equally valid, because that is nothing more than APATHY hiding behind opinion. If we allow our rights to be curtailed, repealed, or eroded in any way, then it's fair to blame those who allow their "opinions" to justify their apathy and resultant inaction, as the cause of our enslavement to a society that is trying, quite effectively, to silence us and kill us.
    That's the same kind of apathy that causes people to ignore the spread of HIV that was so rampant in the early '80's, and is on the rise again now. It was the same kind of indifference and apathy, maybe even cowardice, that enabled the French to allow the Nazi's to occupy France in WWII. Bluntly, if it hadn't been for England's pushing us to help them in the fight against Hitler, and the final push of Pearl Harbor to get us off our butts as a nation, France would have fallen permanently to the Nazis, Europe would have followed, and the world would be very different than it is today.
    We are fighting the same fight, alone, today against fascism toward us as a community, and too many Gays refuse to do anything, hiding behind the apathetic excuse that they're "entitled" to be apathetic in their "opinion." You say you really don't care about Gay marriage rights one way or another? Will you say the same thing when the cops are allowed to break down your door and arrest you just for having a lover of the same sex in the privacy of your own home? Because, that's what will happen to us if we don't stand up, as a solid community, for our rights. Marriage rights will collapse, followed closely by the right to have consentual sex with the partner of our choice. Just read your history, if you don't believe me.
    Forgive me if I sound like I'm flaming here, but when my back is against the wall, I'm not about to just stand there without fighting back.
    Tell me, if you were walking past a Gay bar, saw two men come out holding hands and they suddenly got attacked by one or two men with baseball bats, would you just stand there, entitled to your opinion that it's OK to NOT get involved? Or would you come to their defense?
    If the answer is the former, then shame on you for enjoying the benefits of our community without the willingness to sacrifice something of yourself in return.
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    Jul 20, 2008 6:05 PM GMT

    icon_rolleyes.gif Shame on YOU for such a lame analogy. Seeing a state law repealed is certainly NOT the same thing as witnessing a violent crime.

    You're not helping your cause at all...

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    Jul 20, 2008 6:09 PM GMT
    PHLmuscle8 said
    icon_rolleyes.gif Shame on YOU for such a lame analogy. Seeing a state law repealed is certainly NOT the same thing as witnessing a violent crime.

    You're not helping your cause at all...



    Like hell I'm not. The more we see laws which protect our rights repealed, the higher instance we see of violent crimes against us, because the people who would hurt us are given more of an open legal door to do so. There's a direct correlation. To think otherwise is just foolish.
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    Jul 20, 2008 6:24 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidI have a feeling that a great many more gay people just don't care all that much about "Gay Marriage" one way or the other than you may want to believe


    I could quote and argue with the majority of posters on this topic. But, I chose this quote. It could be neutral or be the posters opinion...doesn't matter either way...

    Frankly, rights are rights. If you don't care about gay marriage, even if it has no affect on you right now, then you can wash away your other rights. How will it affect your daily life in the midwest? What's going to happen to your life's work when you pass on? Blah-Blah-Blah...there's a list longer than all the dicks on this site put together that will explain the rights we are missing compared to other "normal" Americans, not to mention people around the world. Gay Marriage will secure a majority of those rights.

    If you want to sit in your little cocoon of sufficiency, go ahead, but don't bring us down. We actually do care what goes on around the world - Gays being beheaded in Saudi Arabia and other Eastern Nations, Matthew Shephard, boys and girls being denied college entry based on their sexuality, and the fact that we have no real representation in our government due to bigotry and lack of support from our own community. I could go on and on and on and on but lets face it, you know why marriage is important but the title has a stigma for you or you just don't have faith in your own community. Whatever it is, don't hold us back. If you don't care then you're no better than a Black Man that supports the Klu Klux Klan. You're afraid like a slave in chains that doesn't have the guts to run.

    Not every gay or lesbian is allowed to be successful in his/her society. Maybe you'll care after you end up in a wheelchair getting your diaper changed after a hate-filled group of guys took a bat to your spine. Maybe you'll care the next time you see a hot guy in a club, go up to talk to him, and he ends up sounding a bit retarded because he had his head kicked into the curb 5 years ago. Maybe, just maybe you'll care some day. But for me, just because I live in Palm Springs isn't an excuse to hide from the outside world. I know what goes on out there, and even if I don't get married some day, I'm still going to care for those that do care. They accepted and helped me, I'll do the same.

    Gay marriage means a secure step towards equality in California thus allowing for steps for change in America. America, after we rid ourselves of this current ridiculous administration, will be a light in the dark for other countries that are actually asking this question themselves. We should be very upset with ourselves for not being first in this fight as other European nations have been.

    Zeebyaboi, I would suspect that many men on here tend to look and respond first to forums on the recent lists as I do. And honestly, I didn't see your forum. Otherwise, I would've responded and am doing so now.
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    Jul 20, 2008 6:29 PM GMT
    PHLmuscle8 said
    icon_rolleyes.gif Shame on YOU for such a lame analogy. Seeing a state law repealed is certainly NOT the same thing as witnessing a violent crime.

    You're not helping your cause at all...



    Point not taken apparently. Seeing a state law repealed is a huge step in seeing less violent crimes.

    ---OH! Zeeby said this, but this is the encore! icon_wink.gif
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    Jul 20, 2008 6:30 PM GMT
    I was referring to your rant. If your argument to enlist support here is built on faulty logic, how can I believe your PSA will be any better?!


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    Jul 20, 2008 6:33 PM GMT
    I didn't reply to the last thread because I try not to post in serious threads if I have nothing to add to the discussion.

    - I don't live in the States, let alone California
    - I don't have the funds to send support
    - I'm not hugely involved in issues such as SSM and what have you the moment

    Sorry and best of luck.
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    Jul 20, 2008 6:40 PM GMT
    Could not care less about same sex marriage. It is an issue that I think was perpetuated by a loud minority of gays that ultimately probably did harm to their own cause. I'm all for civil unions, but it's not something I feel passionate enough about to go march in the streets for. It's not apathy, not at all. I simply have bigger fish to fry, and SSM ain't one of them. I am only speaking for myself here, but I can tell you that I have many gay friends, and not a one of them has ever even hinted that this issue is high up on any list of their priorities.
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    Jul 20, 2008 6:41 PM GMT
    PHLmuscle8 saidI was referring to your rant. If your argument to enlist support here is built on faulty logic, how can I believe your PSA will be any better?!




    Faulty logic? I don't think you have any understanding of the concept.
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    Jul 20, 2008 6:50 PM GMT
    blink777 saidI didn't reply to the last thread because I try not to post in serious threads if I have nothing to add to the discussion.

    - I don't live in the States, let alone California
    - I don't have the funds to send support
    - I'm not hugely involved in issues such as SSM and what have you the moment

    Sorry and best of luck.


    You may not be here, but you can still be affected. I don't have money either. I work 11 hour days and barely make ends meat. My $15 to GMHC recently was the best I've done this month, but every little bit helps. That probably paid for 100 letters to be sent out. If not now, when?

    You and I may not have the ability to make a financial change and it may not affect us right now, but we can still do something. I've learned to be an inspiration: Go out to clubs or spread the word online to your much older friends and strangers. By inspiration, I don't mean blow them. By explaining how this will affect me, as it probably wont affect them in their retirement, and by telling them of the possibility of change that they never imagined, I have changed a number of minds - some of them influencial in the community. With this, funds and physical support emerge. Every little bit helps.
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    Jul 20, 2008 6:59 PM GMT
    Keep me in the loop, interested in hearing more about what you are trying to do. New to the site.

    -Sky
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    Jul 20, 2008 7:03 PM GMT
    OK...go Ron Paul and all the true libertarians!!! LOL

    I do not think they allow men from Az to get married to Men.....
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    Jul 20, 2008 7:04 PM GMT
    Gay marriage is way down my list too. I don't really even think about it.
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    Jul 20, 2008 7:07 PM GMT
    Never liken the people you are arguing with to Nazi's. It is the worst possible rhetorical move you can make. Remember to follow Goodwin's Law.

    If you do want to get going on this you just do not have enough time to put together a PAC to raise the millions needed to film and air a PSA on television in a political ad saturated market. The time to do that was months ago and the best you could hope for now is a YouTube video.

    I have said it before, don't talk to us, go to organizations promoting marriage equality and offer your services. They have the legal, fundraising, and PR apparatus already in place to get the task done.