How To Talk To Your Homophobic Friends About 'Morality'

  • metta

    Posts: 39155

    May 16, 2012 1:44 AM GMT
    How To Talk To Your Homophobic Friends About 'Morality'



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    May 16, 2012 8:13 AM GMT
    I don't have the have time or the energy to deal with with these "people". Why do you have homophobic friends in the first place? Get rid of them, fly like an eagle.
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    May 16, 2012 12:49 PM GMT
    Lustolove saidI don't have the have time or the energy to deal with with these "people". Why do you have homophobic friends in the first place? Get rid of them, fly like an eagle.

    This-I gave up on trying to convert racist and homophobes a long time ago. I am sure some of them can be educated, but I am too busy with my own life to do it. If you have the time and patience, more power to you, but I would ask, what are you doing hanging out with morons like this in the first place?
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    May 16, 2012 12:53 PM GMT
    Opposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.
  • Erakhalnum

    Posts: 102

    May 16, 2012 1:13 PM GMT
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.


    I don´t understand what you mean.
    do you mean that since "Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion" they have the right not to be criticized for their opinion? cause I believe you have the right to criticized others opinions and if you meant what I think you meant you can´t criticized me for my opinion.
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    May 16, 2012 1:27 PM GMT
    Erakhalnum said
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.

    I don´t understand what you mean.
    do you mean that since "Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion" they have the right not to be criticized for their opinion? cause I believe you have the right to criticize others opinions and if you meant what I think you meant you can´t criticized me for my opinion.

    I would hope so. Otherwise we can't criticize the Taliban and other practioners of murderous religious fanaticism.

    But if we can criticize those individuals for their religious-based extremism, can we not likewise criticize those who use religion to persecute on a lesser scale, also denying basic human rights to gays?
  • great_scott

    Posts: 519

    May 16, 2012 1:31 PM GMT
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.


    Good point! Also because opposing homosexuality based on religion doesn't automatically equal "homophobia".
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    May 16, 2012 2:20 PM GMT
    I agree that we all have a right to our opinions.

    As a result, I disagree that hiding behind a religion to promote hate or simply deny rights because you don't approve of homosexuality is not homophobia.

    Just as I believe that when religious beliefs were used to maintain slavery, or continue treating blacks as second class citizens, it was racism.

    There is no excuse to legalize discrimination, not even religion.

    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.
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    May 16, 2012 2:25 PM GMT
    creyente saidI agree that we all have a right to our opinions.

    As a result, I disagree that hiding behind a religion to promote hate or simply deny rights because you don't approve of homosexuality is not homophobia.

    Just as I believe that when religious beliefs were used to maintain slavery, or continue treating blacks as second class citizens, it was racism.

    There is no excuse to legalize discrimination, not even religion.

    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.



    BINGO!

    Hi creyente! icon_wink.gif
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    May 16, 2012 2:33 PM GMT
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.


    the difference is that gays don´t try and make religious people live the same way as them or try to use politics to create laws against them
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    May 16, 2012 2:34 PM GMT
    I have a good friend who thinks that sex outside of procreation is counter to God's law. Therefore, since he does not want children, he is celibate. Likewise, because gays do not procreate, he thinks we too should be celibate too if we want to live within God's law. But that is as far as he takes it. He's really supportive of his friends, gay and straight, and realizes that almost no-one he knows is interested in his version of God's law. He would be the best man at my wedding if I asked him. He's not homophobic.

    Where I draw the line is when religious people try to impose their beliefs on my personal liberty in a way that is clearly discriminatory. I don't care that they don't approve of all of my behaviour, as I don't approve of most people's behaviour either. I just think we should NOT be taking away each other's rights because of that disapproval.
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    May 16, 2012 2:43 PM GMT
    I agree with you Nivek.

    Simply disagreeing with another person's lifestyle does not make you homophobic if the person is an LGBT member.

    However, when you choose to infringe upon another person's rights because of those beliefs, it crosses the line.


    Nivek saidI have a good friend who thinks that sex outside of procreation is counter to God's law. Therefore, since he does not want children, he is celibate. Likewise, because gays do not procreate, he thinks we too should be celibate too if we want to live within God's law. But that is as far as he takes it. He's really supportive of his friends, gay and straight, and realizes that almost no-one he knows is interested in his version of God's law. He would be the best man at my wedding if I asked him. He's not homophobic.

    Where I draw the line is when religious people try to impose their beliefs on my personal liberty in a way that is clearly discriminatory. I don't care that they don't approve of all of my behaviour, as I don't approve of most people's behaviour either. I just don't think we should be taking away each other's rights because of that disapproval.
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    May 16, 2012 2:44 PM GMT
    Hi guys! icon_smile.gif
    meninlove said


    BINGO!

    Hi creyente! icon_wink.gif
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    May 16, 2012 2:51 PM GMT
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.


    Homosexuality is not an "opinion" that can be opposed by another opinion (e.g. a religion). It is part of one's nature. Opposing homosexuality (based on religion or anything else) is similar to opposing a gender, race or left-handedness (based on religion or whatever).

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    May 16, 2012 2:55 PM GMT
    JPtheBITCH said
    great_scott said
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.


    Good point! Also because opposing homosexuality based on religion doesn't automatically equal "homophobia".

    Says who?


    Baby Jesus.
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    May 16, 2012 3:25 PM GMT
    GonzoTheGreat said
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.


    the difference is that gays don´t try and make religious people live the same way as them or try to use politics to create laws against them


    Religious people fight to have their religious "rights" protected when we win our workplace or housing discrimination protections as if they are being, somehow, gagged by the government. Ridiculous!

    Yet these same religious people are fighting with everything they have, donating millions of dollars to institute discrimination into state constitutions, and block legal protections for gays on any level, without seeing the immorality in their discrimination. It is astonishing! How many millions of dollars were donated to get prop 8 on the ballot in California? Why did they fight to have the names of the donors protected? If they really feel that strongly about it, they should advertise their names proudly, right? The reason they don't...they know, deep down, they are doing something shameful and hiding their true, cowardly faces. They will have to face their God in the next world, and somehow morally justify their discrimination. Strange how they persecute in this world, when their own religion was persecuted for centuries by the Romans.

    Religious people are under some delusion that there is some magical virtue/vice accountant in heaven, tabulating our nation's "godliness." Somehow they have convinced themselves they are trying to save the nation from the devil by blocking protections of people they consider sinners.

    One of my perceptions: People who struggle reconciling their abusive behavior to others try to paint themselves as a victim. That's what I see when I look at the homophobic religious people.

    My two cents.
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    May 16, 2012 3:30 PM GMT
    I carry a gun.
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    May 16, 2012 3:39 PM GMT
    n8698u saidOne of my perceptions: People who struggle reconciling their abusive behavior to others try to paint themselves as a victim. That's what I see when I look at the homophobic religious people.


    Religious bigots crying "Intolerance!" and invoking their "Religious freedom!" buttons when being criticized for their stances and actions against gays is a new phenomenon. Nearly every right-wing religious bigot spokesperson (except Muslim) gets a soapbox on right-wing TV and radio, and they're getting bold. It's now a playbook, and our response has to be as smart, swift and measured if we're going to win this war.

    These religious bullies are far removed from the Jesus they claim to worship, who said "turn the other cheek." No, now it's as if Jesus said, "If someone crieth out when your sandal is on their ass, leapeth onto their back and stomp them."
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    May 16, 2012 3:44 PM GMT
    Yes yes... Legislating someone else's morality is bad.

    Unless you want them to wear a condom in porno, to pay for someone else's birth control, to be nice to everyone, to be more "generous", to get more exercise, or to prop up General Motors on corporate welfare.

    Or if you don't want them smoking weed, or eating trans fat, or smoking tobacco, or putting salt on their steak, or flushing their toilets too much, or buying fresh milk, or using a light bulb, or buying a happy meal, or moving in and "whiting up the neighborhood"... then you can legislate their moral choices.

    Some vices are more equal than others.
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    May 16, 2012 3:49 PM GMT
    Larkin saidYes yes... Legislating someone else's morality is bad.


    Ah, the old "if we do it, they can do it" false equivalency argument. I'll agree, some of those "vices" do fall under "public interest," where legislation is a necessary action of a civilized society, but I can't imagine how my existence (or my eye color, or my skin color, or my height) falls under the "morality" umbrella. Do explain.
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    May 16, 2012 4:02 PM GMT
    Larkin saidYes yes... Legislating someone else's morality is bad.

    Unless you want them to wear a condom in porno, to pay for someone else's birth control, to be nice to everyone, to be more "generous", to get more exercise, or to prop up General Motors on corporate welfare.

    Or if you don't want them smoking weed, or eating trans fat, or smoking tobacco, or putting salt on their steak, or flushing their toilets too much, or buying fresh milk, or using a light bulb, or buying a happy meal, or moving in and "whiting up the neighborhood"... then you can legislate their moral choices.

    Some vices are more equal than others.


    I'm getting an image of Califronia in your comment.

    Some of their laws seem "out there," but I do see a wider ranging purpose.

    Condoms in porn - public health and safety

    General Motors - keeping one of our nation's greatest and wealthiest companies alive long enough for them to get their shit together. Can you imagine the US without GM? You think the economy is bad now? Yipes! icon_eek.gif

    Trans fat, tobacco, salt, happy meals - If you're worried about paying for some woman's birth control, THOSE are what you are really paying an exorbitant health insurance premium for. Right now.

    Water shortages and smog are serious situations in California.

    Gentrification was happening in Orlando during the housing boom. There should be laws keeping real-estate developers from pushing poorer people out for a city's revenues in high priced apartments and condos.

    Sorry...didn't mean to derail the thread.
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    May 16, 2012 4:21 PM GMT
    n8698u said
    Larkin saidYes yes... Legislating someone else's morality is bad.

    Unless you want them to wear a condom in porno, to pay for someone else's birth control, to be nice to everyone, to be more "generous", to get more exercise, or to prop up General Motors on corporate welfare.

    Or if you don't want them smoking weed, or eating trans fat, or smoking tobacco, or putting salt on their steak, or flushing their toilets too much, or buying fresh milk, or using a light bulb, or buying a happy meal, or moving in and "whiting up the neighborhood"... then you can legislate their moral choices.

    Some vices are more equal than others.


    I'm getting an image of Califronia in your comment.

    Some of their laws seem "out there," but I do see a wider ranging purpose.

    Condoms in porn - public health and safety

    General Motors - keeping one of our nation's greatest and wealthiest companies alive long enough for them to get their shit together. Can you imagine the US without GM? You think the economy is bad now? Yipes! icon_eek.gif

    Trans fat, tobacco, salt, happy meals - If you're worried about paying for some woman's birth control, THOSE are what you are really paying an exorbitant health insurance premium for. Right now.

    Water shortages and smog are serious situations in California.

    Gentrification was happening in Orlando during the housing boom. There should be laws keeping real-estate developers from pushing poorer people out for a city's revenues in high priced apartments and condos.


    Condoms: Bogus, paternalistic argument. Treating the public like they're apes who uncritically copy everything they see isn't liberty.

    General Motors: Bogus argument that can be made about the railroad, about the whaling industry, about coal, and about slave plantations in the South. We don't and shouldn't prop up every failing company.

    Trans fat, tobacco, salt, happy meals: I don't submit to the idea that we should use the State to fix problems the State created. If the State weren't forcing me to pay for people's idiot decisions, this "but premiums!!" argument wouldn't hold.

    Water Shortages: Forcing people to flush 4 times with a broken toilet instead of 1 with a normal toilet kinda defeats the purpose.

    Gentrification: Legislating that there should be low-income ghettos indefinitely in is not a recipe for a thriving city. It's a recipe for having no middle-class: pockets of squalid misery abutted to soaring wealth like NYC, Paris, and Sao Paulo.
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    May 16, 2012 4:22 PM GMT
    mickeytopogigio said
    Larkin saidYes yes... Legislating someone else's morality is bad.


    Ah, the old "if we do it, they can do it" false equivalency argument. I'll agree, some of those "vices" do fall under "public interest," where legislation is a necessary action of a civilized society, but I can't imagine how my existence (or my eye color, or my skin color, or my height) falls under the "morality" umbrella. Do explain.


    I'm not making an equivalency argument. I'm saying that people bitching about morality are just as guilty... They're just complaining about an opposing morality.
  • great_scott

    Posts: 519

    May 16, 2012 4:31 PM GMT
    JPtheBITCH said
    great_scott said
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.


    Good point! Also because opposing homosexuality based on religion doesn't automatically equal "homophobia".

    Says who?


    I don't think that a person who doesn't agree with homosexuality automatically hates (or fears) gay people. They just don't agree.

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    May 16, 2012 5:18 PM GMT
    great_scott said
    JPtheBITCH said
    great_scott said
    WickedRyan saidOpposing homosexuality on religious grounds is one thing,,homophobia is another.Gays and religious people have the right to their opinion folks.


    Good point! Also because opposing homosexuality based on religion doesn't automatically equal "homophobia".

    Says who?


    I don't think that a person who doesn't agree with homosexuality automatically hates (or fears) gay people. They just don't agree.


    Hmmmm....what would you tell a person who doesn't agree with heterosexuality?