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showme said

fhaynie81 said
I think it is a sin as well. I DO NOT think that GOD intended any of us to be gay.... It is a major deal breaker for most to learn that I am not for gay marriage either.

There is so much that makes me sad and angry in this thread.

I as well. So, I'm trying to show a perspective that takes a path through the bigotry of biblical errancy to the open skies, freedom and joy that's just on the other side.


-Doug (and to the OP and a couple of others that may not know, I'm christian)

I wrote this in response to a post by another guy a couple weeks back. He was a little more upset with life than you are at this point so a couple things don't apply, but the majority of it does:

I understand where you are coming from. A lot of us do, having been there ourselves. The majority of gays that have self-destructive feelings experience them not due to a lack of social acceptance, but a lack of self-acceptance. For many, the source of this lack of self-acceptance doesn't come from the fact that we don't want to be gay because we want kids and a family, but from the notion that we are living in sin, apart from God's will. In so, simply being ourselves is against what we know to be the source of life and the basis of everything that we are; however, this doesn't have to be the case.

I was pretty torn up about my identity for a number of years. I had a lot of self-hatred and anguish due to the way I had turned out. Much of this was religiously based, and the same goes for many others. I was raised pretty conservatively Christian in the South, so I had a lot working against me. During a few sermons homosexuality was condemned and most of my friends were openly anti-gay. I projected the ministers' interpretations and the immature behavior of my friends to be God's view of homosexuality. In short, I naively took my society's disdain for being gay and attributed it to God. In retrospect, it was an incredibly moronic thing to do, but when you are raised in an environment like that with no good role models it tends to happen.


Due to an intense belief of the incompatibility of homosexuality and Christianity I attempted to experience each with total exclusion of the other, but only half-heartedly. Things could not really have gone much worse. The majority of my time spent going out and meeting guys tended to end in emotionally vacuous hook-ups, while my time in church was spent in deep regret over who I was and what I had done rather than experiencing the love of God. By trying to have both without ever coming to terms with who I was, I ended up with neither. In turn, I began to lose interest in my faith while trying to shut out the concept of being gay. To compound matters, I was also in the military before DADT was repealed, so I had no friends I could talk to without risking being kicked out. It was a very somber existence, and a very dark time.


What finally pulled me out of these depths was an older gay couple I met after I moved north for college. They were very unashamed for their love for each other and they were proud, practicing Christians. They exemplified everything that I thought could not possibly coexist. They had been in a relationship for nearly 30 years, they were not timid about who they were, they were Christian, and even more than that- they were happy. It was from them that I began to understand that being gay and being Christian are not mutually exclusive and that Jesus never condemned homosexuality. Rather, He said the greatest commandments were to love God and to love your neighbor; against these there is no commandment. I had always heard that, but never believed due to how I was brought up. Their relationship was a manifestation of this truth, and seeing them finally opened my eyes to a world of possibility and hope.


Suicide destroys a family like nothing else. The hardest thing for a parent to experience is to bury one of their children, because it upsets the natural order of life. EVERYONE you are close to and most of those you know will blame themselves for it. By trying to dump your pain, all you will do is place it on those that love you, but it will be a far heavier burden than the one you currently bear. Although you may feel as if you are just trying to find a way out, it is one of the most selfish things imaginable.


Although you may not feel it, you have much to live for. There were many times I didn’t believe that and wanted to end it, but I kept going. My life has gotten so much better with the love and support of friends and family after I came out. I have never met a single person whose life didn’t get better.


I empathize with you. By the simple fact of what you have had to endure, I respect you. Please, if you ever feel like you don’t want to go on get in touch with me. The same goes for anyone on here that feels the same way. I pray for you all.

big_nick_86 saidHey guys,
I am a young gay Christian male. I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping. I hate it that I am gay however I have had homosexual relationships I have come out to my friends but am considering just suppressing my homosexual side and just maybe being single for the rest of my life I don't really know. Whenever I am in a homosexual relationship and it gets serious or goes for a relatively long time period I start feeling even more guilty and am forced to break up with him. I am really lost don't know what to do or feel. I can't abandon my faith. Thoughts? Experiences? Anybody willing to talk about this? I can skype or message or whatever.
Many thanks,
L

Your Lord and Savior has already answered your angst:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct."

If you believe acting on your homosexuality is a sin and you want to remain a follower of Christ as a Christian (believe in the divinity of Jesus, believe he died for your sins and was resurrected from the dead) you have no alternative but to follow Jesus' commands and deny yourself the expression of your sexuality.

Good luck with that! I tried it for years and let me tell you Jesus will not help you. He will not answer your prayers to take your homosexuality away. I did my level best to live a good Christian life according to the dictates of my religion: attended Sunday mass without fail (at one point in my life I attended daily mass), frequent confession (weekly), prayer, fasting, catechist, altar boy, married, raised a child, etc. Nothing would erase my homosexuality. Unfortunately, late in life I realized that I was being tortured and God didn't seem to care about my turmoil. I had to give up the notion of God because nearly everything I had been taught about him didn't ring true anymore. If he loved me as I was taught why wasn't he helping me in my struggle? Why did he seem not to care about the inner turmoil I was suffering all my life in trying to be his faithful follower? I felt I mattered naught to him.

I didn't abandon my faith. My god abandoned me.

It's funny; I just had this very same discussion with a gay friend last night. His story and mine were so similar it was scary. And I imagine your story parallels ours. Our name is Legion.

P.S. Jesus also said you cannot serve two masters because you will come to love the one and hate the other. So balancing homosexuality and orthodox Christianity is impossible without a whole lot of mental gymnastics and picking and choosing which of Jesus' teachings and commands to follow.

I am a believing Catholic so Iknow how you feel.First homosexuality is not a sin but the Church considers homosexual acts as sinful.I am a sinner like everyone else and have faults.I number sexual sins among many other sins that people commit.I am not perfect I have good and bad points.I love God and trust in him.He knows what is in our hearts.That is enough for me.

UndercoverMan said

big_nick_86 saidHey guys,
I am a young gay Christian male. I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping. I hate it that I am gay however I have had homosexual relationships I have come out to my friends but am considering just suppressing my homosexual side and just maybe being single for the rest of my life I don't really know. Whenever I am in a homosexual relationship and it gets serious or goes for a relatively long time period I start feeling even more guilty and am forced to break up with him. I am really lost don't know what to do or feel. I can't abandon my faith. Thoughts? Experiences? Anybody willing to talk about this? I can skype or message or whatever.
Many thanks,
L

Your Lord and Savior has already answered your angst:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct."

If you believe acting on your homosexuality is a sin and you want to remain a follower of Christ as a Christian (believe in the divinity of Jesus, believe he died for your sins and was resurrected from the dead) you have no alternative but to follow Jesus' commands and deny yourself the expression of your sexuality.

Good luck with that! I tried it for years and let me tell you Jesus will not help you. He will not answer your prayers to take your homosexuality away. I did my level best to live a good Christian life according to the dictates of my religion: attended Sunday mass without fail (at one point in my life I attended daily mass), frequent confession (weekly), prayer, fasting, catechist, altar boy, married, raised a child, etc. Nothing would erase my homosexuality. Unfortunately, late in life I realized that I was being tortured and God didn't seem to care about my turmoil. I had to give up the notion of God because nearly everything I had been taught about him didn't ring true anymore. If he loved me as I was taught why wasn't he helping me in my struggle? Why did he seem not to care about the inner turmoil I was suffering all my life in trying to be his faithful follower? I felt I mattered naught to him.

I didn't abandon my faith. My god abandoned me.

It's funny; I just had this very same discussion with a gay friend last night. His story and mine were so similar it was scary. And I imagine your story parallels ours. Our name is Legion.

P.S. Jesus also said you cannot serve two masters because you will come to love the one and hate the other. So balancing homosexuality and orthodox Christianity is impossible without a whole lot of mental gymnastics and picking and choosing of Jesus' teachings and commands to follow.

Wow! Almost the same story here, although I know the bible is an incomplete, imperfect document edited, redacted and nuanced through the centuries. Every person in any religion has to do mental gymnastics because there are so many contradictions and inconsistencies. How can one take it literally. Man wrote the Bible.

I went through the same battle, trying to reconcile God and my sexuality. I finally accepted God made me as I am for a reason. I can keep my spirituality, live what I've learned from my religious upbringing and dump the destructive, man made crap surrounding it.

n8698u said

UndercoverMan said

big_nick_86 saidHey guys,
I am a young gay Christian male. I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping. I hate it that I am gay however I have had homosexual relationships I have come out to my friends but am considering just suppressing my homosexual side and just maybe being single for the rest of my life I don't really know. Whenever I am in a homosexual relationship and it gets serious or goes for a relatively long time period I start feeling even more guilty and am forced to break up with him. I am really lost don't know what to do or feel. I can't abandon my faith. Thoughts? Experiences? Anybody willing to talk about this? I can skype or message or whatever.
Many thanks,
L

Your Lord and Savior has already answered your angst:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct."

If you believe acting on your homosexuality is a sin and you want to remain a follower of Christ as a Christian (believe in the divinity of Jesus, believe he died for your sins and was resurrected from the dead) you have no alternative but to follow Jesus' commands and deny yourself the expression of your sexuality.

Good luck with that! I tried it for years and let me tell you Jesus will not help you. He will not answer your prayers to take your homosexuality away. I did my level best to live a good Christian life according to the dictates of my religion: attended Sunday mass without fail (at one point in my life I attended daily mass), frequent confession (weekly), prayer, fasting, catechist, altar boy, married, raised a child, etc. Nothing would erase my homosexuality. Unfortunately, late in life I realized that I was being tortured and God didn't seem to care about my turmoil. I had to give up the notion of God because nearly everything I had been taught about him didn't ring true anymore. If he loved me as I was taught why wasn't he helping me in my struggle? Why did he seem not to care about the inner turmoil I was suffering all my life in trying to be his faithful follower? I felt I mattered naught to him.

I didn't abandon my faith. My god abandoned me.

It's funny; I just had this very same discussion with a gay friend last night. His story and mine were so similar it was scary. And I imagine your story parallels ours. Our name is Legion.

P.S. Jesus also said you cannot serve two masters because you will come to love the one and hate the other. So balancing homosexuality and orthodox Christianity is impossible without a whole lot of mental gymnastics and picking and choosing of Jesus' teachings and commands to follow.

Wow! Almost the same story here, although I know the bible is an incomplete, imperfect document edited, redacted and nuanced through the centuries. Every person in any religion has to do mental gymnastics because there are so many contradictions and inconsistencies. How can one take it literally. Man wrote the Bible.

I went through the same battle, trying to reconcile God and my sexuality. I finally accepted God made me as I am for a reason. I can keep my spirituality, live what I've learned from my religious upbringing and dump the destructive, man made crap surrounding it.

I'm a little confused - how does our inner difficulty with reconciling our faith and our sexuality...have anything to do with measuring the truthfulness/falsehood of the bible?

It's like using a ruler to measure temperature. The absence of a thermometer does not legitimize the use of the ruler.

The absence of a clear 21-st century revelation from God on the matter of (homo)sexuality does not legitimize our turning to our feelings to judge the entire enterprise of divine revelation.

If you're going to reject the bible, let your argument turn on another issue - Undercoverman, you've highlighted your inability to believe in a literal reading of the bible. That's a legitimate problem one could conceivably have with the bible. But one has to wonder which came first - the intellectual problem, or the personal sexuality/identity crisis?

Which leads to an even more explosive question: which came first: intellectual problems against the bible, or personal problems that made the intellectual problems look even more problematic than they were?

Is naturalism really "the" correct approach to understanding history, or have our personal problems influenced us into a bias for strictly naturalistic answers - which creates a blind spot where we cannot see if we're dismissing the bible on the basis of so-called head stuff without truly wrestling with the heart stuff?

Don't let your unsolvable conflict dictate your worldview. Dismissing the worldview that presents the dilemma in order to remove the dilemma...does not invalidate the worldview you have dismissed; it only puts it "out of sight; out of mind".

My understanding is that it's okay to be gay, but if you act on it at all, it's a sin. Same with any other condemned compulsion in the Bible. You've been given this to test you and make you a better person, or something.

Either way, I wouldn't put much stock in it. God doesn't have a history of being very nice.

^^^

In addition to what I wrote above, I must tell you that you are also going to have to learn to live in paradoxes. You have to be able to wrestle through conflicts without ignoring realities. More and more people are thinking with their emotions and not concrete truths. I wouldn't dream of dismissing anyone's issues, but the real test of Christianity is not, "Does it make me feel at peace? Does it resonate with the core of my being?" Those sound like very "spiritual" questions, but I'm suspicious. The true test of Christianity is, "Did He rise from the dead?" If He did, He will not go back into the dead simply because you and I are experiencing a crisis. If He is risen, then He is risen indeed - not merely in sentiment.

Paradox. Here's one: "Life is tragic; God is faithful"
Here's another: Jesus was about to be crucified, and He says, "I have overcome the world"
The supreme difficulty of Christianity lies in being able to live sanely in the midst of dilemmas that would cause an otherwise sane person to lose it. These dilemmas are never really intellectual dilemmas - though people use subterfuge to make it appear that they were so - but they are relational and existential dilemmas.

Job suffered and he wondered whether God had abandoned him. As he surveyed the evidence, he concluded that God existed. "I know my Redeemer lives". The reason behind Job's suffering run deep, but what's important is realizing that Job did not confuse his intellectual issues with his existential issues. Which is what's happened in the last 2000 years.

Years after his conversion, St. Augustine listed all his previous academic issues with Christianity. But at the end of this list, you can almost hear the exhausted sigh as he admits that his problem had been that he could not stand the thought of being without the embrace of a woman.

If you conclude that God condemns you for being gay (which I doubt) you cannot conclude that God does not exist, nor can you leap from reaching the conclusion that God condemns you straight into the primary question of His existence. All you'll manage to do is find "evidence" that He doesn't. Seek and ye shall find.

You do not have to find another denomination in order to experience the love of God. You can find it, now, where you are, in the Name of The Father, and of The Son, and The Holy Ghost. Amen

~Priest

Balancing Christianity and Homosexuality =

The_Watchers said
....learn to live in paradoxes.

21st century revelation of God?
The only divine revelation THEN was the same kind of divine revelation NOW. Creativity. It's the same spirit that drives any writer. There is as much "divinity" in Dickens, Hugo, Dostoyevsky as any of the many authors or editors of the Bible stories.

n8698u said21st century revelation of God?
The only divine revelation THEN was the same kind of divine revelation NOW. Creativity. It's the same spirit that drives any writer. There is as much "divinity" in Dickens, Hugo, Dostoyevsky as any of the many authors or editors of the Bible stories.

*presses Like button*

The_Watchers, I live in no paradox.

To some of the other posters; when I read the bible it had to go through the filter of my heart and my brain. The two can operate in a wonderful tandem that separates the bigotry from some very beautiful truths that the book is a mixture of.


God is not a book and a book is not god. Men said that god said this and that, and that Christ said this and that and wrote it down. Then they had the audacity to say and write 'that's all there is'. Then they had the further audacity to judge others by what they had written.

-Doug

lol, explaining this with the sensation some of you are not going to understand me is like running knee deep through jello carrying a feather bed over my head.

big_nick_86 saidHey guys,
I am a young gay Christian male.
L

Why are you letting the fables of a bunch of stone age goat herders ruin your life?

big_nick_86 said[...] I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping. [...] I can't abandon my faith. Thoughts? Experiences? [...]

Learn the meanings of the words 'extremism' and 'fanaticism' as well as 'equality' and 'comparable.' Perhaps 'tolerance,' 'compassion,' 'context', and 'Biblical commentary' would also put things in perspective for you.

My fellow christians are welcome to join me in the daylight instead of suffering under a cross that christ already carried for you. Beware of the words men put in christ's mouth when they wrote that book.

http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2396807/

Very thoughtful discussion.

I know this:

1) God Created Me.
2) God is loving.
3) Homosexuality is NOT a choice.
4) God accepts and loves his creation.
5) How I reconcile it - I simply ask God to regenerate my heart and lead me down His path. I don't cast judgement on others but rather practice love and compassion and let God handle the BIG questions.

Thorbaugh saidVery thoughtful discussion.

I know this:

1) God Created Me.
2) God is loving.
3) Homosexuality is NOT a choice.
4) God accepts and loves his creation.
5) How I reconcile it - I simply ask God to regenerate my heart and lead me down His path. I don't cast judgement on others but rather practice love and compassion and let God handle the BIG questions.

I have a question about your number 3. What about those guys that have kids and who were married at a certain point? How were they able to get it hard with a woman and then the day after announce that they are completely gay? I just never understood these gay guys who used to be attracted to women and not any more...

big_nick_86 said...I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping...

I do not believe homosexuality is a sin, for the record, because I don't believe a god would create a class of people only to condemn them for existing. Not that gods couldn't be that dickish, but really? Would that be a supreme being then, worthy of your worship?

Another issue with accepting the biblical account of your god's condemnation: perhaps your god has nothing to do with the assholes who made gossiping and homosexuality ON PAR with murder, or who left rape or incest off of the books. Who is your god? If you believe that Moses literally transcribed the words of Yahweh, then if I were you I'd have to dispense with the cognitive dissonance that allows you to love/worship a supreme being that's an irrational dick.

Or, dispense with it by reasoning that Moses got it all wrong.

Aggieboy said

Thorbaugh saidVery thoughtful discussion.

I know this:

1) God Created Me.
2) God is loving.
3) Homosexuality is NOT a choice.
4) God accepts and loves his creation.
5) How I reconcile it - I simply ask God to regenerate my heart and lead me down His path. I don't cast judgement on others but rather practice love and compassion and let God handle the BIG questions.

I have a question about your number 3. What about those guys that have kids and who were married at a certain point? How were they able to get it hard with a woman and then the day after announce that they are completely gay? I just never understood these gay guys who used to be attracted to women and not any more...

Being gay doesn't mean I cannot perform with a woman in a sexual situation. On some level sex with a man is more fulfilling for me. With a woman I'm just performing; with a man I am giving my all - mind, body, soul. In having sex I was choosing to deny my real self.

My brother on the other hand has never had sex with a woman. He says he can't even get hard with one. I guess he and I are on different points on the Kinsey Scale.

-- Having been brought up in a stiflingly religious home, what you say and feel about your homosexuality is normal. It was a major issue for me as a child, imagine being 8 years old thinking you were going to hell. It's pretty devastating no matter when you realized where your attractions were aimed if you were raised with the bible in your life.

It wasn't until much later in life, a marriage that should never have happened self destructed, that I finally confronted it. I hope your spared that. Living in denial of who you are is a recipe for heartache and disaster. First, and I don't mean to offend any of you believers with what I am about to say, let's take a look at the fact that the bible is a collection of writings created by man's hand and passed on for thousands of years.

I am sure you all had the exorcise in school where a story begins at the back of the room, handed pupil to pupil until it finally winds up at the front of the room and the last student and no longer resembles it's original form. Now, add to that the agendas of an untold number of would be Christians and just how twisted do you suppose that story managed to get over those thousands of years?

I don't care how opened minded you consider yourself, if you really believe that God ever commanded a man to sacrifice his son to prove his love for him, you may need more than any absolution you will find on earth. The bible reads like a Steven King horror story for the most part, stonings, people turning into pillars of salt, page after page of death for this and that, hell if you were going to take it literally more than half the female population of the earth would be in immediate danger of execution, and NONE of them would ever see "heaven".

I hate to be the guy that puts the bible in the pile with the Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, but I'm not the first to make this observation and I know I won't be the last.

Does that mean I don't believe in God? No. Rather I don't believe for a hot second that my fellow man has not exorcised INSANE artistic license in every other word of that so called "good book". Nor do I believe there is such a thing as one true religion - not as defined by any church here on earth for sure.

Heaven and hell. Well it's an interesting concept to be sure. To say that your going to hell over who you were born to love? No matter how you turn the picture that reasoning is flawed. I was attracted to boys as early as kindergarten - long before I would ever hear the word gay let alone understand what it was. So it's pretty clear to me I was born this way. God, even under the most BIBLICAL definition held you equal as one of his creations, as you were born. Again, no short list of "mistakes" that were held under a lessor worth.

While every religion handles the issue of "Christ" slightly different, If you believe that Christ paid for your sins, there was no addendum that listed all the sins he omitted from payment. This is not blanket exemption from any and all sin, you have to subscribe to the notion that even though you may sin every day - your not just ignoring his laws.

Now, all that said what do I believe? I believe that there are snippets of truth in that book, and that the core of that truth is to live a good life, be kind to your fellow human, respect each other and each other's property, treat each other as you would want to be treated. As for Heaven and hell? I'm inclined to believe there is life beyond this place unlike anything we can imagine. Heaven and hell? Personally I think this is more poetic license than fact.

I think somewhere along the way, the good books authors decided they needed leverage, and impending doom to keep people in line. Much like the many tales of wrath and treachery contained in it's pages, finely augmented with the idea that if you dare question any of it you risk eternal damnation - and that those who were not "baptised" into a faith faced certain eternal damnation... so many levels of damnation it's dizzying.

If you don't see man's hand in all of this, I understand. It's really not all that hard to imagine people actually believing they can secure their futures in "heaven" along with the futures of their entire family by committing acts of terrorism. We can readily dismiss them as nut jobs, our truth is the only truth, they are clearly delusional criminals. Right.

I would say that's true. But the real crime is in the way God's word has been twisted by man world wide in the name of hatred, intolerance, and greed. The bigger joke is the idea that God would condone any of it.

"Blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it." I think what that really says is if you REALLY hear his word, you can identify it - no matter how much bullshit has been shovelled in on top of it. A tricky concept? Not really. If you know the difference between good and evil it is pretty easy to grasp.

Well this turned into quite the diatribe.

To sum it up, if you really believe that God would condemn you to hell for the way you were born, I'm afraid you have been sold a load of crap. Unfortunately for you there is a huge segment of the world's population that bought the same tainted load of crap. If you want to find happiness in this world you will need to open your eyes.. I sincerely hope that you don't waste half a lifetime before you get there.

big_nick_86 saidHey guys,
I am a young gay Christian male. I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping. I hate it that I am gay however I have had homosexual relationships I have come out to my friends but am considering just suppressing my homosexual side and just maybe being single for the rest of my life I don't really know. Whenever I am in a homosexual relationship and it gets serious or goes for a relatively long time period I start feeling even more guilty and am forced to break up with him. I am really lost don't know what to do or feel. I can't abandon my faith. Thoughts? Experiences? Anybody willing to talk about this? I can skype or message or whatever.
Many thanks,
L

Your 'god' given natural sexuality is NOT a 'sin' period.
Dump the bible.

Religion is for sheep.


Baa!

I grew up in a thoroughly Christian home and faced the same quandries that you are dealing with. I no longer believe that homosexuality is a sin. There are a few writings that deal with the issue of homosexuality and the Bible. I'm going to copy them here for you to read:

1. Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim

Note to Stumblers:

Some comments criticizing this piece indicate that it was "hijacked" from a West Wing episode. This is a chicken and egg argument in my opinion. I don't really know which came first, and frankly don't care.

Here's #2.
Peter J. Gomes, an American Baptist minister, is professor of Christian morals at Harvard.

CAMBRIDGE, Mass.

Opposition to gays' civil rights has become one of the most visible symbols of American civic conflict this year, and religion has become the weapon of choice. The army of the discontented, eager for clear villains and simple solutions and ready for a crusade in which political self-interest and social anxiety can be cloaked in morality, has found hatred of homosexuality to be the last respectable prejudice of the century.

Ballot initiatives in Oregon and Maine would deny homosexuals the protection of civil rights laws. The Pentagon has steadfastly refused to allow gays into the armed forces. Vice President Dan Quayle is crusading for "traditional family values." And Pat Buchanan, who is scheduled to speak at the Republican National Convention this evening, regards homosexuality as a litmus test of moral purity.

Nothing has illuminated this crusade more effectively than a work of fiction, "The Drowning of Stephan Jones," by Bette Greene. Preparing for her novel, Ms. Greene interviewed more than 400 young men incarcerated for gay-bashing, and scrutinized their case studies. In an interview published in The Boston Globe this spring, she said she found that the gay-bashers generally saw nothing wrong in what they did, and, more often than not, said their religious leaders and traditions sanctioned their behavior. One convicted teen-age gay-basher told her that the pastor of his church had said, "Homosexuals represent the devil, Satan," and that the Rev. Jerry Falwell had echoed that charge.

Christians opposed to political and social equality for homosexuals nearly always appeal to the moral injunctions of the Bible, claiming that Scripture is very clear on the matter and citing verses that support their opinion. They accuse others of perverting and distorting texts contrary to their "clear" meaning. They do not, however, necessarily see quite as clear a meaning in biblical passages on economic conduct, the burdens of wealth and the sin of greed.

Nine biblical citations are customarily invoked as relating to homosexuality. Four (Deuteronomy 23:17, I Kings 14:24, I Kings 22:46 and II Kings 23:7) simply forbid prostitution, by men and women.

Two others (Leviticus 18:19-23 and Leviticus 20:10-16) are part of what biblical scholars call the Holiness Code. The code explicitly bans homosexual acts. But it also prohibits eating raw meat, planting two different kinds of seed in the same field and wearing garments with two different kinds of yarn. Tattoos, adultery and sexual intercourse during a woman's menstrual period are similarly outlawed.

There is no mention of homosexuality in the four Gospels of the New Testament. The moral teachings of Jesus are not concerned with the subject.

Three references from St. Paul are frequently cited (Romans 1:26-2:1, I Corinthians 6:9-11 and I Timothy 1:10). But St. Paul was concerned with homosexuality only because in Greco-Roman culture it represented a secular sensuality that was contrary to his Jewish-Christian spiritual idealism. He was against lust and sensuality in anyone, including heterosexuals. To say that homosexuality is bad because homosexuals are tempted to do morally doubtful things is to say that heterosexuality is bad because heterosexuals are likewise tempted. For St. Paul, anyone who puts his or her interest ahead of God's is condemned, a verdict that falls equally upon everyone.

And lest we forget Sodom and Gomorrah, recall that the story is not about sexual perversion and homosexual practice. It is about inhospitality, according to Luke 10:10-13, and failure to care for the poor, according to Ezekiel 16:49-50: "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy." To suggest that Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexual sex is an analysis of about as much worth as suggesting that the story of Jonah and the whale is a treatise on fishing.

Part of the problem is a question of interpretation. Fundamentalists and literalists, the storm troopers of the religious right, are terrified that Scripture, "wrongly interpreted," may separate them from their values. That fear stems from their own recognition that their "values" are not derived from Scripture, as they publicly claim.

Indeed, it is through the lens of their own prejudices and personal values that they "read" Scripture and cloak their own views in its authority. We all interpret Scripture: Make no mistake. And no one truly is a literalist, despite the pious temptation. The questions are, By what principle of interpretation do we proceed, and by what means do we reconcile "what it meant then" to "what it means now?"

These matters are far too important to be left to scholars and seminarians alone. Our ability to judge ourselves and others rests on our ability to interpret Scripture intelligently. The right use of the Bible, an exercise as old as the church itself, means that we confront our prejudices rather than merely confirm them.

For Christians, the principle by which Scripture is read is nothing less than an appreciation of the work and will of God as revealed in that of Jesus. To recover a liberating and inclusive Christ is to be freed from the semantic bondage that makes us curators of a dead culture rather than creatures of a new creation.

Religious fundamentalism is dangerous because it cannot accept ambiguity and diversity and is therefore inherently intolerant. Such intolerance, in the name of virtue, is ruthless and uses political power to destroy what it cannot convert.

It is dangerous, especially in America, because it is anti-democratic and is suspicious of "the other," in whatever form that "other" might appear. To maintain itself, fundamentalism must always define "the other" as deviant.

But the chief reason that fundamentalism is dangerous is that, at the hands of the Rev. Pat Robertson, the Rev. Jerry Falwell and hundreds of lesser-known but equally worrisome clerics, preachers and pundits, it uses Scripture and the Christian practice to encourage ordinarily good people to act upon their fears rather than their virtues.

Fortunately, those who speak for the religious right do not speak for all American Christians, and the Bible is not theirs alone to interpret. The same Bible that the advocates of slavery used to protect their wicked self-interests is the Bible that inspired slaves to revolt and their liberators to action.

The same Bible that the predecessors of Mr. Falwell and Mr. Robertson used to keep white churches white is the source of the inspiration of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and the social reformation of the 1960's.

The same Bible that anti-feminists use to keep women silent in the churches is the Bible that preaches liberation to captives and says that in Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free.

And the same Bible that on the basis of an archaic social code of ancient Israel and a tortured reading of Paul is used to condemn all homosexuals and homosexual behavior includes metaphors of redemption, renewal, inclusion and love -- principles that invite homosexuals to accept their freedom and responsibility in Christ and demands that their fellow Christians accept them as well.

The political piety of the fundamentalist religious right must not be exercised at the expense of our precious freedoms. And in this summer of our discontent, one of the most precious freedoms for which we must all fight is freedom from this last prejudice.