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Balancing Christianity and Homosexuality

  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:16 PM GMT
    #3. The Six Bible Passages Used To Condemn Homosexuals




    This material is given in one long page so that you can more easily print it out to read and study and share with others. You can also move to each main section by clicking on the Scripture references:

    Genesis 19:5 Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13

    Romans 1:26-27

    I Corinthians 6:9; I Timothy 1:9-10

    In preparation for each passage, read the entire chapter. For Romans 1:26-27, read the first 3 chapters of Romans. Read Genesis chapter 38 for a clear picture of the Old Testament attitudes about women, sex, the necessity of producing offspring, the control of men over women, the double standard for men and women, and other sexuality issues.


    Genesis 19:5:
    "Bring them out to us that we may know them."

    Author's Note: "Know" simply means know! No hint at homosexuality exists in the original Hebrew. No later Bible references to Sodom ever mention homosexuality as the sin of Sodom. Many modern translations add words to the text to create the lie that the people of Sodom were homosexual.

    "SODOMY" is not a biblical word. Laws against sodomy not only violate the Constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state; they also use an incorrect and wrongly translated term for the laws. A "Sodomite" in the Bible is simply a person who lives in Sodom, which included Lot and his family. The term "sodomite" in the King James Version of Deuteronomy 23:17 and I Kings 14:24 is an incorrect translation of the Hebrew word for "temple prostitute." (See the recent book by Mark D. Jordan: The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology. University of Chicago Press, 1997.)

    The average person assumes that the Bible clearly condemns male to male sexual intercourse as "sodomy" and that the city of Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality, which is seen as the worst of all sins in the Bible. These assumptions are based on no evidence at all in the Bible.

    No Jewish scholars before the first Christian century taught that the sin of Sodom was sexual. None of the biblical references to Sodom mention sexual sins but view Sodom as an example of injustice, lack of hospitality to strangers, idolatry and as a symbol for desolation and destruction. See Deuteronomy 29:22-28; 32:32; Ezekiel 16:49-50; Jeremiah 49:18; 50:41; Isaiah 13:19-22 and Matthew 10:14-15. In Jude 7, the term "strange flesh" is Greek hetero sarkos ("different flesh" and from which the word "heterosexual" comes) and refers to foreign idols or people. It is not homo ("the same") flesh or people. Sarkos is never used in the New Testament as a word for "sex."

    The word "know" in Genesis 19:5 is Hebrew YADA. It is used 943 times in the Old Testament to "know" God, good and evil, the truth, the law, people, places, things, etc. It is a very flexible word, as are many Hebrew words. In Genesis 19:5, the word was used to express the request of the people of Sodom that Lot should bring out the strangers in his house so that they could know who they were. Sodom was a tiny fortress in the barren wasteland south of the Dead Sea. The only strangers that the people of Sodom ever saw were enemy tribes who wanted to destroy and take over their valuable fortress and the trade routes that it protected. Lot himself was an alien in their midst.

    Lot's strange response to the request was to offer his young daughters to the men, an offer that seems to me to be far more reprehensible than any problem of sexual orientation. If the men were homosexual, why did Lot offer to give them his daughters? These hostile and violent people were heterosexual, and homosexual orientation had nothing to do with the incident.

    Special note on YADA: The Hebrew word YADA "to know" is never used in the Old Testament to mean "to have sex with". People have been conditioned to think that "to know someone biblically" means to have sex. The use of YADA in Genesis 4:1-2 to say that Adam knew Eve and she conceived and gave birth to Cain is followed by saying that later she gave birth to his brother Abel without any reference to YADA. Why? Simply because YADA does not mean to have sex. It is a general term that describes many kinds of intimate relationships. I have studied all of the uses of YADA in the Old Testament, and my personal conclusion is that it never means what we mean by sexual intercourse. Just substitute a common slang expression for sexual intercourse instead of the word "know" in Genesis 4:1 and you will see how inappropriate the idea is. The Old Testament Hebrew writers never thought or wrote in those terms. The Bible never gives any details about sexual acts. The only clear Hebrew term for sexual acts is "to lie with," which is left without any further explanation.

    WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN SODOM?

    To twist the story to say what it does not say is to miss what it does say. The story does not deal with sexual orientation or with homosexuality and has no bearing at all on the issue of God's acceptance or rejection of Gays and Lesbians. The story of Sodom clearly teaches that evil and violent people who attack aliens and strangers whom they do not know or understand receive God's quick and terrible punishment.

    The purpose of the story is to show that misunderstood, strange, or feared minorities in any community are in danger from violence by the majority when that majority is ignorant, ungodly, selfish and afraid. The real message of Sodom is backwards from the claims of homophobic preachers and teachers. The Gay and Lesbian minority in our society today is more like the guests in Lot's house who were protected behind closed doors ("in the closet") than like the frightened mindless mob that wanted to expose, humiliate and destroy people that they did not "know" and control.

    Set the record straight! Genesis 19 is about the fear (like homophobia) and anger of a mob (like many misguided religious fanatics) directed against a small group of isolated strangers (like Gays and Lesbians today) in their midst. Sexual orientation is not the issue here or anywhere else in the Bible.

    Read also the strange story in Judges 19:1-30 of the Levite in Gibeah, which was patterned after the story of Lot and the angels in Genesis 19. Jewish teachers before the time of Christ never saw either of these stories as having any connection with homosexuality or sexual orientation. Neither should we.


    Leviticus 18:22:
    "You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

    Leviticus 20:13:
    "If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

    Author's Note: Both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.

    Because these two verses in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) have been used more than any other Bible texts to condemn and reject gay and lesbian people, the following material is given to help you think objectively about traditional abusive use of the Bible regarding homosexuals.

  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:19 PM GMT
    #3 continued:


    The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.

    Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?

    Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others.

    Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?

    The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.

    Read what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5 about hypocrites who judge others. "Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...You hypocrite!"

    If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the Bible in order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path. Jesus quoted only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:1. Jesus used Leviticus to teach love. Many false teachers use Leviticus and other writings to condemn, humiliate and destroy. I know which approach seems truly Christian to me. Jesus never condemned homosexuals or even mentioned anything that could be taken as a reference to sexual orientation.

    Any charge against Gays and Lesbians based on the life and teachings of Jesus has to be dismissed for a lack of evidence!

    The use of Leviticus to judge and condemn anyone today is ludicrous and absurd in the light of the total content of the book. To call the content of the Book of Leviticus the "word of God" and try to enforce any part of it today is without support in the teachings of Jesus and in the letters of Paul.

    Jesus in Mark 7:18-23 chided his disciples for their lack of spiritual understanding. Jesus and his disciples had been condemned by the religious leaders because they did not wash and eat according to the Law. Jesus said, "Are you too so uncomprehending? Don't you see that whatever goes into your mouth from the outside cannot defile you; because it does not go into your heart, but into your stomach, and is eliminated? (Thus Jesus declared all foods clean."). And Jesus added, "That which proceeds from within you, out of your heart, defiles you. Evil thoughts, abusive sex acts, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting, wickedness, deceit, not caring, envy, slander, arrogance and foolishness: all of these evil things proceed from within and defile you."

    Paul also rejected the absolute commands of Leviticus in Colossians 2:8-23, where he said, "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 'Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!' (which all refer to things destined to perish with the using) in accordance with human commandments and teachings? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against human indulgence." (2:20-23). Paul declared in 2:14 that Jesus has "canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us which was hostile to us; and Jesus has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

    Many people have answered the argument that most of the "abominations" in Leviticus referred to food by saying that the people back then knew that pork was unhealthy, and that is why pigs were declared to be unclean. If you follow that logic, you would declare anything that is unhealthy to be an "abomination." We know that cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, fat food and many other things are unhealthy; so why are they not also called "abominations" and condemned by the rabid Bible literalists with protests and pickets against cigarette machines, all liquor stores and bars, all fast food outlets, and any store that sells anything that is unhealthy? The reason is simple. The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject anyone is impossible to justify in the light of the facts.

    The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is absurd and makes literal legalistic bible based religion look ridiculous.

    To me personally, the message of Jesus Christ always has been good news for everyone. Personal evangelism has been my basic emphasis in the ministry since I became pastor of a small rural church in South Carolina in 1952 when I was nineteen years old. Our little church led the Baptist Churches of South Carolina one year in per capita baptisms. In all of my churches, both Baptist and MCC, my emphasis has been personal evangelism. What is your emphasis in your ministry? I personally have led hundreds of people to Christ and taught other hundreds of people to become effective in sharing Christ with others. During all of this time I have been homosexual. I have realized that I was gay since I was a about 10 years old. God loves me just as I am and uses me in ministry that fits me and my life as an individual. I pray that you find the same thing for yourself.


  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:21 PM GMT
    #3 continued

    Romans 1:26-27:
    "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions: for their women exchanged the natural use for that which is against nature. And in the same way also the men abandoned the natural use of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error."
    Author's Note: All of this refers to idolatrous religious practices that were common in the time of Paul.

    Taking anything that Paul said out its context is like trying to drive a car blindfolded. You don't know where you are, where you have been, where you are going, or who you just ran over and killed!

    Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious reformers, the mentally ill, and the list could go on and on. Paul is often difficult and confusing to understand. A lot of Paul's writing is very difficult to translate. Since most of his letters were written in response to news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we have to guess what the other side has said. As 2 Peter 3:16-18 pointed out, we have to be on guard against using Paul's writings in unhealthy and destructive ways.

    When I taught a college course in the Book of Romans, I decided to memorize Romans, as Augustine suggested. The effort paid off. Being able to visualize the message of Romans as a whole immediately cleared up a lot of Paul's thought that I had not been able to untangle before by traditional means of study. It helped so much that I continued to memorize the books of the Bible that I taught in college courses.

    The theme of the first 3 chapters of Romans is expressed in 1:16: "The gospel is the power of God for spiritual freedom (salvation) for all who believe." Paul showed that all people equally need and can have Jesus in their lives. Paul's gospel is inclusive, as expressed in Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Romans 1:26-27 is part of Paul's vigorous denunciation of idolatrous religious worship and rituals. Read all of Romans 1:18 to 2:4 for the context of the verses.

    Romans 1:26-27 contains some words used only here by Paul. Familiar words are used here in unusual ways. The passage is very difficult to translate. The argument is directed against some form of idolatry that would have been known to Paul's readers. To us, 2,000 years later and in a totally different culture, the argument is vague and indirect.

    Verse 25 is clearly a denunciation of idol worship, "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature and not the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."." Paul at no point in his writing dealt with same-sex orientation or the expression of love and affection between two people of the same sex who love each other.

    Paul wrote Romans from Corinth, the second largest city in the empire and the crossroads of world trade and culture. Pausanius observed at about the same time as Paul that there were over 1,000 religions in Corinth. The most prominent were the fertility cult of Aphrodite, worship of Apollo, and the Delphi Oracle, which was across the bay from Corinth. Paul's readers would have been aware of the religious climate from which he wrote Romans and would have understood Paul a lot better than we do.

    The word "passions" in 1:26 is the same word used to speak of the suffering and death of Jesus in Acts 1:3 and does not mean what we mean by "passion" today. Eros is the Greek word for romantic love, but eros is never used even once in the New Testament. "Passions" in 1:26 probably refers to the frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music.

    We do not know the meaning of "burn" in 1:27, because Paul never used this particular word anywhere else, and it's origin is uncertain. The term "against nature" is also strange here, since exactly the same term is used by Paul in Romans 11:21-24 to speak of God acting "against nature" by including the Gentiles with the Jews in the family of God. "Against nature" was used to speak of something that was not done in the usual way, but did not necessarily mean that something "against nature" was evil, since God also "acted against nature."

    One more word needs special attention. "Committing indecent acts" in 1:27 is translated by King James Version as "working that which is unseemly." Phillips goes far beyond the evidence and renders it as "Shameful horrors!" The Greek word is askemosunen and is formed of the word for "outer appearance" plus the negative particle. It speaks of the inner or hidden part or parts of the individual that are not ordinarily seen or known in public. "Indecent" in 1 Corinthians 12:23 referred to the parts of the body that remain hidden but are necessary and receive honor. 1 Corinthians 13:5 used the word to say that love does not behave "indecently."

    This word for "indecency" was used to translate Deuteronomy 24:1 into Greek to say that a man could divorce his wife if he "found some indecency in her." The religious teachers argued endlessly about what "some indecency" meant. Some said it was anything that displeased the husband. Others were more strict and said it could only refer to adultery. In Matthew 19:1-12, Jesus commented on Deuteronomy 24:1-4, but he did not define the term.

    Paul was certainly aware of the variety of ways that the teachers interpreted the word "indecency," and he used it in a variety of ways himself. To read into "indecent acts" a whole world of homosexual ideas is to abandon the realities of objective academic study and to embark on useless and damaging speculation that cannot be supported by the meaning of the word or by Paul's use of it elsewhere.

    If Paul had intended to condemn homosexuals as the worst of all sinners, he certainly had the language skills to do a clearer job of it than emerges from Romans 1:26-27. The fact is that Paul nowhere condemned or mentioned romantic love and sexual relations between people of the same sex who love each other. Paul never commented on sexual orientation. As in the rest of the Bible, Paul nowhere even hinted that Lesbians and Gay men can or should change their sexual orientation.

  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:24 PM GMT
    #3 more

    SPECIAL NOTE on Romans 1:31, where the King James Version translated the Greek word astorgous as "without natural affection." This is one of the characteristics of people "with a reprobate mind" (KJV of 1:2. The word for "reprobate" is more recently translated as "depraved" or "perverted" in order more neatly to fit the sexualizing of everything possible in the list. The literal meaning of "reprobate" (Greek dokimon) is "to fail to measure up" or "to fail to meet the test" and simply means that the list of things that follows is the result of a mind that has abandoned God. The word astorgous, "without natural affection," is used only here and in 2 Timothy 3:3. It has nothing at all to do with homosexuality or with sex. It is the Greek word for "family love" or "family ties" with the negative prefix. It refers to people who despise and reject their family members. Rather than being directed at homosexuals, it is a term that is directed at people who despise and reject their own homosexual children and brothers and sisters! Modern translators, knowing this, usually render the word as "unloving," and the implication of some sort of "unnatural" or "perverted" affection is removed. Many more translation corrections are needed elsewhere!

    The use of Romans 1:26-27 against homosexuals turns out to be a blunt instrument to batter and wound people who were not intended in the original text. Paul clearly taught throughout Romans, Galatians and his other letters that God's freely given and all inclusive love is for every person on earth. Notice what Paul said about judging others in Romans 2:1: "Therefore you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

    I Corinthians 6:9:
    "The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the realm of God."
    Author's Note: The Greek words translated "effeminate" and "homosexual" do not mean effeminate or homosexual!

    I Timothy 1:9-10:
    "Law is not made for a righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and fornicators and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound (healthy) teaching."
    Author's Note: The Greek word translated "homosexual" does not mean homosexual!

    These two verses contain completely wrong translations to create "homosexual ghosts" that do not really exist! Ghosts may not hurt you, but they can make you hurt yourself! The homosexual ghosts in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 were created by the inaccurate and intentionally misleading translation of two Greek words.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 sound very convincing in including lesbians and gay men in the most dreadful lists of depraved human behavior imaginable. The fact is that the word translated "homosexual" does not mean "homosexual" and the word translated "effeminate" does not mean "effeminate"!

    The English word "homosexual" is a composite word made from a Greek term (homo, "the same") and a Latin term (sexualis , "sex"). The term "homosexual" is of modern origin and was not used until about 100 years ago. There is no word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is parallel to the word "homosexual." No Bible before the Revised Standard Version in 1946 used "homosexual" in any Bible translation.

    The word translated as "homosexual" or "sexual pervert" or some other similar term is Greek arsenokoites, which was formed from two words meaning "male" and "bed". This word is not found anywhere else in the Bible and has not been found anywhere in the contemporary Greek of Paul's time. We do not know what it means. The word is obscure and uncertain. It probably refers to male prostitutes with female customers, which was a common practice in the Roman world, as revealed in the excavations at Pompeii and other sites.

    When early Greek speaking Christian preachers condemned homosexuality, they did not use this word. John Chrysostom (A.D. 345-407) preached in Greek against homosexuality, but he never used this word for homosexuals, and when he preached on 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, he did not mention homosexuals. See the full discussion of this in John Boswell's book: Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality - Appendix 1, "Lexicography and Saint Paul," pages 335-353.

    "Soft" does not mean "effeminate." The word translated "effeminate in 1 Corinthians 6:9 is Greek malakoi and means "soft" or "vulnerable." The word is translated as "soft" in reference to clothing in Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 and as "illness" in Matthew 4:23 and 9:35. It is not used anywhere else in the New Testament and carries no hint of reference to sexual orientation. Malakoi in 1 Corinthians 6:9 probably refers those who are "soft," "pliable," "unreliable," or "without courage or stability." The translation of malakoi as "effeminate" is incorrect, ignorant, degrading to women, and impossible to justify based on ancient usage compared to the meaning of "effeminate" today.

    This incorrect rendering of malakoi and arsenokoites as references to gender orientation has been disastrous for millions of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual people. This mistaken translation has enlisted a mighty army of ignorant religious fanatics against homosexual people and has turned many Lesbians and Gays against the Bible, which holds for them as for all people the good news of God's love in Christ.

    Evil homophobic Bible "translations from hell" must not go unchallenged. The use of these translations by ignorant religious bigots to incite fear and hate against Gays demands a clear, academically sound, credible and easily understood response. Material given in this web site is only a beginning. Every Bible word that has been incorrectly used to wound, alienate and oppress people must be examined in detail and carefully exposed. God has called us to return the Bible to the oppressed and outcast people for whom it was written.

    Three of the passages: Genesis 19:5; I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 are incorrectly translated. The other three: Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27 are taken out of their original setting of condemning idolatrous religious practices and wrongly used to judge and condemn people of the same sex who love each other. None of these passages refer to people of the same sex who love each other. None originally were aimed at homosexuals. Contact me and I will answer your questions about these passages by e-mail. See also my book, Steps to Recovery From Bible Abuse and my NEW SPECIAL OFFER.

    "THE SODOMY MYTH"
    Update for April 2, 2003

    THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT

    Once again the attention of the United States is focused on the mythical concept of "sodomy" as the highest court in the land wrestles with illegal, unjust, dishonest, homophobic, abusive, inconsistent, repressive state laws that are based on religious misunderstanding and ignorance.

    Many states have removed their state "sodomy laws." The kind of arguments that the Texas Attorney General has made to the Supreme Court would require the Court to demand that these states put back their medieval "Sodomy laws" for the common good! The entire "sodomy" issue is a bogus cause and unworthy of any serious intelligent debate and dispute. (See links below.)

  • Sportsfan1 Posts: 350
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:25 PM GMT
    And God saw that it was good. We are all created in God's image. As such we all deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. That includes ourselves. If you do not love and accept who you are, how can you possibly love someone else. Find an inclusive community of believers and believe in yourself. God wants you to be happy.
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:25 PM GMT
    #3 more
    "SODOMY"

    No word for "sodomy" exists in biblical Hebrew or Greek! A "Sodomite" is simply someone who lived in the city of Sodom, just as a "Moabite" lived in Moab. Any use of the words "sodomy" or "sodomite" in biblical translations is a vicious mistake that attempts to read incorrect interpretation into the text itself and thereby discredit all translations. No word for "homosexual" or for "homosexuality" exists in biblical Hebrew or Greek. In fact, no word for "sex" exists in the biblical languages! (Look in the major concordances, and you will not find even one reference to "sex".)

    The cultural world of the biblical material is vastly different from ours today, and not one word means exactly today what it meant 2,000 to 3,000 years ago in a different world and in languages that are not used any more as they existed at that time.

    SEE MY WEB SITE MATERIAL ON ALL OF THIS .

    NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE

    The city of Nashville is locked in a great community-dividing battle over the issue of protecting the civil and human rights of GLBT people. The presence of headquarters for nine major fundamentalist religions in Nashville has greatly muddied the community values regarding LGBT people. Southern Baptists, United Methodists and National Baptists are among those with publishing and administrative offices in Nashville. The Church of Christ and other similar groups have their colleges in Nashville.

    When I became pastor of MCC Nashville in 1993, the state of Tennessee still had state laws against "sodomy". One of my best friends, Dr. Chris Simien, was a graduate student at Vanderbilt University at the time studying for his PhD in clinical psychology. Chris joined with several other young GLBT students who were preparing for careers in counseling and challenged the Tennessee state laws against sodomy as unconstitutional in view of the Tennessee State Constitution guarantee of the individual's right to privacy. They won in 1995.

    After several court decisions and appeals, the Tennessee State Supreme Court agreed that the state sodomy laws were a violation of the State protection of the right to privacy. All sodomy laws were removed from the state statutes. (See related links below)

    The local Nashville lawyer who handled this case for Chris and his friends was Abby Rubenfeld, a prominent civil rights attorney, who happens to be the sister of Paul Ruben, who is also known as "Pee-Wee Herman." I talked to my friend Chris in Nashville this morning, and he told me that the ordinance to protect GLBT human rights in Nashville was just defeated.

    THE IGNORANCE FACTOR

    Recent arguments against homosexuals and against GLBT civil and human rights at the Supreme Court along with a lot of the questions asked by the Justices themselves reflect an incredible level of ignorance concerning the facts about GLBT people. Dedicated purveyors of ignorance and misinformation have done a great job of confusing and distorting the truth about homosexuality and homosexuals.

    The "Ex-Gay Fraud" and related religious distortion ministries by such groups as "Focus on the Family" and "Family Research Council" have distracted multitudes of people away from the facts about religious and social abuse of GLBT people.

    Correcting misinformation and distortions takes a lot of research and ever-changing approaches to reaching out with the facts in ways that will be heard and accepted. My web site has been available since September 1997, and I have continuously revised and added updates to deal with current events. The detailed information that is on my web site answers the distortions and misinformation, but it takes a lot of time to work through all of the material.

    GLBT CONFUSION

    One of the most destructive results of the religious, political distortions and misinformation about GLBT people has been the self-destructive behavior including a steady rate of suicide among our own people who have believed the lies forced upon them by their own families, churches, politicians, friends and other sources of dedicated ignorance. No simple easy remedy exists to the dilemmas faced by LGBT people in our society.

    For every web site and book that tells the truth about GLBT life and issues, hundreds of anti-gay homophobic religion based sources of misinformation flood the Internet, bookstores, media, and public institutions. We need each other. We need clear convincing presentations of the facts. We need allies in every level of society who can stand with us, stand in our shoes, understand us, accept us, and affirm us in our human value and human rights.

    WHERE DO YOU FIT IN?

    What are you personally doing to make a difference for truth, reality and the facts? Are you well informed with the facts that you need to know? The sources of information are endless. You have to be selective and undistracted by false voices and uninformed people. Learning what you need to know in order to make a difference in this world for yourself and for other GLBT people will demand and require everything that you can give of yourself, your time, your relationships, and your opportunities to touch others.

    My web site gives a lot of information, but it also directs you to many other web site sources and books that can help you to know the facts and act with confidence in your own truth. New issues and new situations emerge every day.

    Chris and Barbara Purdom through their ministry of information "Religion at Critpath" as part of Interfaith Working Group have helped me for years to keep up with what's happening in our world.

    BECOME INFORMED

    The present debates and decision of the United States Supreme Court will have a long-term powerful effect on GLBT people everywhere. Take the time to become informed about all of the details of these developments.

    Do whatever you can to make a difference where you are.

    Rembert Truluck

    (See new pictures of our kitties in my web site updates.)

    Click here for references and other sites

    Supreme Court related sites:

    http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/qtr1_2003/0326-144.html

    Links and stories from Washington Post:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/courts/supremecourt/20022003/

    Lambda Legal Challenge:

    http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/documents/record?record=1176

    Click here to see the relationship of Jesus to the Bible

    See a history of the Sodomy Law issue in Tennessee:

    http://www.sodomylaws.org/sensibilities/tennessee.htm

    Other related sites:

    http://www.qrd.org/qrd/usa/tennessee/1993/sodomy.challenge

    http://www.aclu-tn.org/privacy01-02.html

    Family Research Council: http://www.frc.org/

    Focus on the Family: http://www.family.org/

    Focus on the Family and James Dobson recently devoted time and money to promoting the totally bogus book by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi on "Preventing Homosexuality". Nicolosi is a professionally discredited psychologist, whose war against homosexuals has extended through many years and many books that form the foundation for the "Ex-Gay" disaster that confuses and distorts all issues related to GLBT people.
    (This Update added on April 2, 2003)

    Special Update added September 1, 2001:
    "FLORIDA SODOMITES WIN!"
    (a response to Florida law banning gay and lesbian adoptions.)

    A recent religious attack against progress for GLBT people declared: "The sodomites have won again!" In view of the recent Florida decision to deny the rights of GLBT people to adopt children, we need to take a fresh look at just what the words "sodomy" and "sodomite" really mean.

  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:28 PM GMT
    #3 I'm closing in on the end

    WHO ARE THE SODOMITES?

    The homophobic religious right often refers to homosexuals as "sodomites" not realizing that the religious right in their ignorant rejection and abuse of GLBT people are the real "sodomites"! (See my discussion of Genesis 19:5 above and in my book. No word for "sodomite" exists in biblical Hebrew. The word "sodomite" is a homophobic invention. See book below.) Name-calling is a favorite pastime of religious fanatics. It creates an unreasoning emotional response in their submissive hearers.

    We are not dealing with logical objective reasonable people in our battle for acceptance and understanding as GLBT people. We are wrestling with religious "principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world." Religion has darkened the minds of millions of people to the real truth of God's love and acceptance of all people as having equal value before God.

    Abusive churches have become blind to the personality and purpose of Jesus of Nazareth. Slick portraits and statues of crucified feeble "Christ's" have obscured the real Jesus and filled the imagination of millions of people with a false image of Jesus that has no social and cultural impact beyond the teachings and demands of oppressive religious institutions. The traditional images of Jesus with a flock of sheep or alone with face upturned to a blazing light or on a cross has created a remoteness that makes it almost impossible for the average person really to identify with the human Jesus of the Gospels.

    ART AS ENEMY OF THE TRUTH

    Art often has been our enemy. Literature also in such "masterpieces" as Dante's "Inferno" and "Paradise Lost" and thousands of other flights of imagination have replaced the realism of the Four Gospels with fantasy and speculation that have caught and dominated human imagination far more than the truth for over a thousand years. Current writers and moviemakers have given vivid realistic images of the "end of the world" and the so-called "rapture" so that the unending cacophony of confusion about Jesus is multiplied through the Internet and all other mass media of television and books.

    We are nowhere close to a resolution of our dilemma of knowing a different Jesus from the Jesus of traditional religion that is entrenched in the minds and hearts of millions of people in conflict with the real Jesus of the Gospels. Fantasy and speculations have replaced the realism of the Four Gospels. Artistic pictures of Jesus are far more vivid in the minds of most people than the simple human portrait of Jesus in the Four Gospels, where Jesus is most often pictured sitting with the outcasts and eating with the unclean people of his community. Jesus accepted and welcomed the people that everybody else, including religion, rejected and despised.

    The suffering of Jesus is magnified in art at the expense of his realistic humanity and identification with average people. To identify with the pitiful image of the suffering Jesus is to abandon the realism of living life to the fullest as a beloved child of God in the image of God, which is what most of the Gospel story is really about.

    The "pitiful Jesus" has been magnified in art beyond the evidence to induce emotional self-rejection and to arouse remorse instead of discipleship, sadness instead of joy. "Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief" is an unfortunate misrepresentation of the true Jesus, who enjoyed life with his friends so much that his enemies accused him of being party boy and a heavy drinker! Jesus welcomed and "ate with sinners" instead of condemning and rejecting them.

    THE IDEAL OF JESUS

    The call of Jesus is not to deny your real self and reject who you really are. It is the same call that Jesus followed by accepting himself as God had made him and accomplishing what he alone could do. You also have a mission in life that fits you. It may not fit anybody else who ever lived. But it fits you.

    Why is that so difficult to grasp? Is it because religion itself has taught you to reject yourself and deny your true nature and reason for being? Religion has betrayed you, and religion also has betrayed Jesus. How can you recover the "real Jesus" in your spiritual path of faith?

    How can you really let go and move on? Try being logical and realistic. What kind of God would create you as a gay or lesbian person and then condemn you to eternal fires of hell because of how God had made you? That kind of thinking is totally destructive and is not logical or realistic. Whenever religion condemns and rejects people because of how God made them, it is obviously false and out of touch with reality. Yet millions still believe in it!

    ESCAPE INTO REALITY

    Leaving the comfortable fold of traditional abusive religion is often the hardest decision a person has to make. It is far more difficult than joining the church in the first place. Leaving the fold invites rejection, condemnation, judgment and self-blame and guilt. It is not an easy path out of delusion into the truth. Yet your health and wholeness as a person depend upon your escape from abusive religion.

    I receive e-mail every day from people who have made the leap of faith out of destructive religion into the reality of God's love. I know that you can do this too, and you can help others to do the same.

    WHO ARE THE ANGELS?

    In the Sodom story in Genesis 19, the angels were the messengers from God who represented the truth of God's love and protection for Lot and his family. The angels were like GLBT people, who are different from others and who are seen as aliens and strangers and therefore a threat to those who are misinformed and who do not really recognize what God is doing. The people of Sodom were the "sodomites" who wanted to expose, demean, humiliate and destroy the angels, whom they did not understand and who were strange and different.

    Isn't it incredible that the biblical literalists have gotten the terms backwards! They have called people who like the angels are different and strangers, such as Gay and Lesbian people, the "sodomites" when actually the sodomites are the rigid legalists who judge and condemn people they don't understand and who seem to threaten them and who must be attacked and destroyed!

    Homophobic legalists have distorted and misrepresented the Bible to create a "power tool," a religious chainsaw, to massacre LGBT people. We have to challenge and neutralize these deadly weapons being used against us even by our own families and all too often used by us against ourselves and against each other.

    Biblical literalism always betrays those who try to force their ignorance on others in the name of God. Run! Don't walk, to the nearest exit and escape!

    WHO IS JESUS?

    Jesus is the one person who rises above all of the misinformation and deceit about the value of each individual to God. Jesus has already accepted you and loved you and done for you everything that Jesus has done for all people. Everything that Jesus did was done for the entire human race, and that includes you and me! "Whosoever" is not a mistake or a misprint. It is the basic principle of God's way of dealing with humans, who are all represented in Jesus. Jesus said, "Because I live, you shall live also." God's acceptance and approval of Jesus is God's acceptance and approval of you. Enjoy it!

    Why can't religion just leave us alone and let us enjoy being God's children created in the image of God? Money? Political power? Is that what is really at stake? Is the long torturous history of abusive religion just one extended selfish mistake for the purpose of giving power to people over other people in the name of some god? Probably.

  • TerraFirma Posts: 1627
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:29 PM GMT
    Sportsfan1 saidGod wants you to be happy.


    The Bible never says that God wants you to be happy. Misunderstood and falsely propagated notion.

    What it does say is that God wants you to delight in Him (Psalm 37:4) and that He will give you the desires of your heart.
    "Joy", on the other hand, is a common theme (John 16:16-21) but not apart from knowing and being right with God. Joy lasts, happiness is momentary.
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:30 PM GMT
    #3 more:

    Being logical, realistic, objective and practical comes at a high cost. You have to let go of illusions, fantasies, imaginations and inconsistencies, which seem to be what life is about for many religionists. You have to grow up into the maturity of Jesus and learn to love yourself and others in the Spirit of Jesus. You really do have to let go and move on.

    Can you? Are you willing to let go and move on? Or do you have such a sick case of religion that you enjoy hating yourself and others? Maybe you have to wake up before you can let go and move on!

    There goes the alarm clock. Time to wake up!

    See "The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology" by Mark D. Jordan:
    The University of Chicago Press, 1997.

    "OUT, PROUD AND FREE"
    Update for June 15, 2004.

    "GLBT PRIDE" is being celebrated this week around the world. Many of us are "Out" and "Proud," but we are not yet "Free."

    As long as we continue to live under political, religious and cultural oppression and abuse because of our sexual orientation, we cannot really be free. Homophobia is a social and psychological disease. Internalized homophobia leads to self destructive thinking and actions for millions of GLBT people every day. (See: "Society and the Healthy Homosexual" (1972) by George Weinberg, who invented the word "homophobia" to indicate a treatable emotional disorder.)

    When you are told every day by important people in your world that you are evil and unfit because you are homosexual, you begin to believe that some of it must be true. None of it is true! National news recently announced that over 10,000 military personnel have been thrown out of military service based on the "Don't ask. Don't tell" policy of our national government.

    Staying "in the closet" to avoid being singled out and punished by your own family and friends because of your sexual orientation is very painful and self-destructive. "The closet is a dark room where negatives develop."

    THE POLITICS OF HOMOPHOBIA

    Yesterday I saw a television interview with Franklin Graham, son of famous evangelist Billy Graham. Franklin gave his support to George Bush and explained that he agreed with Bush's religious testimony and his stand against liberal Christianity. Franklin also mentioned that his father is a Democrat.

    This interview was broadcast nationally without giving any opportunity for GLBT rebuttal. The politics of homophobia are based on ignorance and religious misinformation and abuse. Homophobia is a serious social and mental disorder. GLBT children have to be taught to hate themselves from a very early age in order for homophobia to develop into a self-defeating destructive lifestyle.

    "GOD MADE ME DO IT"

    President Bush claims that his political and military decisions come from God. Joshua in the Old Testament also claimed that God told him to kill and destroy all of the native people, including babies and children. Joshua justified military destruction (genocide) of whole cties and races as the will of God.

    No piece of ancient literature is more filled with violence, treachery, war and genocide than the "Holy Bible."

    I receive a steady stream of "hate mail" in response to my website. Religious abusers selectively use bits and pieces of biblical material to "prove" that God hates and condemns homosexuals. A badly translated verse will be taken out of context and used to condemn me because I have demonstrated (from the Bible) that GLBT people are God's beloved children also.

    Most people who write me to condemn me have only glanced briefly at my website. Most of the questions that abusive fundamentalists ask me to answer are already answered in my website material on "THE BIBLE AND HOMOSEXUALITY." (See link below.)

    THE FEAR FACTOR IN RELIGION

    Fear of Homosexuality also is being used by Baptists, Roman Catholics, and a great host of other religions to gain political, financial and cultural control of the United States at the expense of GLBT people. Homophobia also is unfair. The news media at every level allows homophobic hate and misinformation to be spread like bitter molasses over the human pancake.

    My friend Jay Martin this morning sent news articles that report how the rapidly accelerating homophobic activities of Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists are tearing down centuries of respect for human and civil rights for all people and obliterating the clear Constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state.

    INTERNALIZED POISON

    The internalized poison of homophobia and abusive religion continues to take human hostages and to diminish GLBT self-esteem and joyful self-acceptance. GLBT pride events this month have done nothing and can do nothing to change the misinformed homophobic world! The only real change in your search for freedom from fear and self-rejection happens within you and in your own heart and mind.

    Use the occasion of GLBT Pride week to tell everybody you know about my "Steps to Recovery from Bible Abuse" website (http://www.otkenyer.hu/truluck/) and book, published by Chi Rho Press. (See links below.)

    The liberating power of learning the facts and accurate information about homosexuality paves the way for you into a new world "over the rainbow" and into "the promised land." Gene Kelly sang and danced in a powerful movie sequence called "Singing in the Rain." Kelly, Judy Garland and their songs were honored this week on television as among the best movie songs ever performed. Are you moving forward into your vision of hope "over the rainbow" while you continue to "sing in the rain" of homophobic lies and distortions that reject and condemn you?

    Your own self-rejection and homophobia will "kill you and your little dog too!"

    ESCAPE FROM ABUSE

    What has helped you the most to resist homophobic rejection and build up your own self-acceptance and self-esteem? How have you handled your rejection by family, friends, church, etc.? Do you sometimes feel like you are trying to jump out the window of a burning building only to look down and see a self-righteous hand holding onto your feet and preventing your escape from the torments of homophobic religion?

    We like to pretend that our family or friends actually "mean well" when they quote biblical material to "save us" from homosexuality and from our sin against God and nature. They do not "mean well"! They are deluded and distracted by traditional abusive religion and they are not thinking for themselves. They need accurate information and truth. Give it to them!

    WAR WITHOUT END

    GLBT battles for acceptance, self-esteem, and survival are being played out on a drastically uneven battlefield. The vast religious/political/media homophobic forces that are arrayed against us have far greater resources a lot more money, and far more deadly weapons to use against us than we have to defend ourselves. We are for the most part not even using the weapons that we have. Go to the Internet and search my website (http://www.otkenyer.hu/truluck/) and follow the suggested links to other supportive informational sites. Do a Yahoo! Search for "gay and lesbian" on "Yahoo News."

    Become informed. Not knowing enough accurate information to be confident in yourself that your sexual orientation is right for you is a great disadvantage for you and can eliminate you from the battlefield before you can engage the enemy and go beyond defense into effective contact and conquest. Our battle for acceptance and respect is not lost. "We have just begun to fight!"

    THE BANNER OF TRUTH

    We move into battle under the banner of "TRUTH" and we fight for our own survival as well as for the good of all GLBT people. The weapons of our warfare are spiritual. (See the quote from Ephesians 6:10-20 in link below.)

  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:33 PM GMT
    big_nick_86 saidHey guys,
    I am a young gay Christian male. I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping. I hate it that I am gay however I have had homosexual relationships I have come out to my friends but am considering just suppressing my homosexual side and just maybe being single for the rest of my life I don't really know. Whenever I am in a homosexual relationship and it gets serious or goes for a relatively long time period I start feeling even more guilty and am forced to break up with him. I am really lost don't know what to do or feel. I can't abandon my faith. Thoughts? Experiences? Anybody willing to talk about this? I can skype or message or whatever.
    Many thanks,
    L


    First of all, homosexuality isn't a sin but it's the actions with another guy that is. According to the Catechism of the Catholics Church, a homosexual Catholic is to live their life single and celibate. I'm pretty sure I can't do that and nor can any other people on this planet, and even if they do, they'll probably live a life they will hate.

    I have no idea what specific religion you are besides Christian, so all I can really say is that this is between you and God. I still believe in God but I just don't think he'd make me this way and expect me to live my entire life without experiencing love.
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:36 PM GMT
    #3 I think this is all:


    Two great movie classics have become part of our modern mythology and culture. The "Star Wars" series and the "Lord of the Rings" series have informed and instructed all of us in the methods and strategies of success against the unseen "dark side of the force" and against the mindless robots of religious abuse and oppression.

    View two great culture challenging movies: "Metropolis" (which lays a foundation for "Matrix") and Pink Floyd's "The Wall" (which exposes the deadly power of regimented social/religious indoctrination). When I first saw "The Wall" in Atlanta several years ago, I was struck by how clearly the robot like actions reflected the mindless decisions that built great emotional response to old fashion country "revivals" that I once attended and even led myself.

    I can hardly wait to see the new Michael Moore movie "Fahrenheit 9/11"! You may recall that Michael Moore also did a brief television documentary on "Fred Phelps" and his anti-gay crusade. Moore included interviews with Fred and his family and let them discredit themselves with their own words. Michael Moore is one of the few media people with the talent and resources to create some effective responses to the ignorant destructive "status quo" of American media and culture.

    Rembert Truluck
    http://www.otkenyer.hu/truluck/

    "You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
    (Jesus in John 8:32)

  • waccamatt Posts: 1518
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:46 PM GMT
    The bible is a work of fiction written by men a couple of thousand years ago. Life your life and be true to yourself and you can't go wrong. Religion was invented to control the masses by putting fear into their heads.
  • handsoffire Posts: 178
    QUOTE Jun 04, 2012 10:49 PM GMT
    I'm rather over the bible. It's an old book, written by a pagan emperor, who woshiped a singular solar diety, and created the bible as to codify what he was going to confirm as the state religion. There were 187 books that had been written by christian scolars and authors that were left on the editing room floor. For instance, where are the actual writings of Christ? Mary? John the bapstist? Umm, just saying, see hwere the holes are.

    All that said, I'm a preachers kid, my grand father was also a minister, born into a family of service and ministry. My parents love me, just as I am no less; though that is after a few years of therapy for all involved. It all clicked for me when I was 16 and feeling a bit suicidal. I preayed to be straight or I prayed to be dead. That night I had a dream and found myself walking on a beach with Jesus, and he leaned ina nd said to me; " I love you just as you are, I made you this way."

    After that, no issues for me, organised faith could take a looong walk off a short pier. I had my answer.
  • TerraFirma Posts: 1627
    QUOTE Jun 05, 2012 2:27 AM GMT
    waccamatt saidThe bible is a work of fiction written by men a couple of thousand years ago. Life your life and be true to yourself and you can't go wrong. Religion was invented to control the masses by putting fear into their heads.

    Simplistic answers, religious or not, are such a turn-off.
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 07, 2012 6:53 AM GMT
    big_nick_86 saidHey guys,
    I am a young gay Christian male. I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping. I hate it that I am gay however I have had homosexual relationships I have come out to my friends but am considering just suppressing my homosexual side and just maybe being single for the rest of my life I don't really know. Whenever I am in a homosexual relationship and it gets serious or goes for a relatively long time period I start feeling even more guilty and am forced to break up with him. I am really lost don't know what to do or feel. I can't abandon my faith. Thoughts? Experiences? Anybody willing to talk about this? I can skype or message or whatever.
    Many thanks,
    L


    I'm not going to tell you what is right for you in terms of your sexual activity. But, what I will say is that I am sort of your very modern day Christian; by this I mean I tend to view the bible very creatively from a metaphysical reference point each and every time I become tempted to believe it is superstition.

    I am abstinent for a different reason than you are (I am HIV positive), however I am still either gay or straight depending on how I use my free will. I choose to be gay and at the same time I still love and respect what Jesus believed in... Forgiveness. That is a very strong word so stop taking this whole gay thing upon your back for him. He has already done it for you and himself.

    I don't know how tied you are to the way the bible is perceived in traditional churches; however, I would like to recommend dabbling into some philosophical readings by Ernest Holmes called Science Of Mind.

    Science of Mind will seem a very rough read (especially to us Christians) at first glance because in order to receive the message, you have to let yours go momentarily. But it comes back to you in a very different form of understanding that is even more gratifying than the symbolic approach to Christianity.

    Whatever you decide to do, remember Truth will never end your love for Christ and of course nothing will ever cost you his love for you also... Or at least that is how I have experienced it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 07, 2012 8:00 AM GMT
    meninlove said
    big_nick_86 saidHey guys,
    I am a young gay Christian male. I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping. I hate it that I am gay however I have had homosexual relationships I have come out to my friends but am considering just suppressing my homosexual side and just maybe being single for the rest of my life I don't really know. Whenever I am in a homosexual relationship and it gets serious or goes for a relatively long time period I start feeling even more guilty and am forced to break up with him.


    *sighs* There's so much wrong in this I'm not sure where to start.

    Let's begin here:
    "I believe homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin such as murdering or gossiping."
    Do you believe obese people should be treated the same as murderers? (gluttony)

    "I hate it that I am gay."
    If you believe in the love from god you need to ask why god made you this way and permitted your birth in the first place. Is god a doddering fool who makes mistakes?





    If he was, then Bill was made in his image
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 07, 2012 4:27 PM GMT
    Religious self-loathing is one of the saddest things I can think of. I can only hope (and, yes, pray) that big_nick-86 and every other gay person who suffers from this, eventually gets through it.

    From a man who has definitely been there and done that.
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 07, 2012 4:30 PM GMT
    OtherWyze saidL, I know exactly what you're going through, I went through it myself. It took me a good year and several bad experiences with church to actually let myself be who I really am. I was in 2 relationships, and broke up with both both of them because I felt "guilty". I remember after the last breakup thinking that I'd be alone for the rest of my life. I still thought homosexuality was a sin. I started going to church more, and reading books like "Washed and Waiting" by Wesley Hill which deals specifically with this issue. I also started getting counseling.

    That phase lasted about 4 months, and I suffered frequent bouts of depression. I felt awful after leaving church Sunday, and that's when I realized I should at least take a break for a while. I told the leadership of that church that I was going to take a break, and they said "Is it because you're seeing another guy? Just trying to keep you accountable bro." Well, that pissed me off more than anything, because these guys hadn't had a conversation with me since I joined their church several months prior.

    Once I stopped going to church, I was markedly happier. My friends noticed, my counselor noticed, everyone noticed. My depression was almost gone completely. I came out to my friends (to which they gave me a group hug), and decided to never lie about my sexuality again. That was September, 2011, and I've been much happier ever since. But you know something sad? None of my friends I had made at that church kept in touch after that. So I guess they were never my friends to begin with, huh?

    Is my faith still important to me? I think I have to say yes. However, it's not something I think about on a daily basis, because I know how much pain it gives me. In fact, I still get offended when people make ignorant remarks about Christianity. Right now, I'm still in a phase where I'm searching for how Christianity fits into my new life. I know you might say sounds like a cookie-cutter approach; some might even call me apostate. However, I do know that going to church right now is not an option for me; I've had too many bad experiences with fake people pretending to "be there" for me.

    Something ironic has happened because of all this; I've had more conversations about my faith than I ever have in my entire life. I'm able to talk about my genuine experiences with Christianity with complete non-believers. True, I can't say whole-heartedly that I believe myself anymore, but it's funny how many people want to know about that stuff.

    I hope some of my experiences have helped you sort out some of your own feelings. If I had any advice to give you, it would be this: don't stifle who you are; "dying to the flesh" is different than dying to your core being. It's not just that you're attracted to men; you also have the capacity for genuine love for another man. And don't let people tell you you can't be a Christian if you're gay.


    Very articulate and thought provoking post. Thanks for sharing your experience.
  • trampolini Posts: 199
    QUOTE Jun 07, 2012 4:31 PM GMT
    TerraFirma said
    waccamatt saidThe bible is a work of fiction written by men a couple of thousand years ago. Life your life and be true to yourself and you can't go wrong. Religion was invented to control the masses by putting fear into their heads.

    Simplistic answers, religious or not, are such a turn-off.

    Two words: Occam's razor.

  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jun 07, 2012 5:18 PM GMT
    Aggieboy said
    Thorbaugh saidVery thoughtful discussion.

    I know this:

    1) God Created Me.
    2) God is loving.
    3) Homosexuality is NOT a choice.
    4) God accepts and loves his creation.
    5) How I reconcile it - I simply ask God to regenerate my heart and lead me down His path. I don't cast judgement on others but rather practice love and compassion and let God handle the BIG questions.



    I have a question about your number 3. What about those guys that have kids and who were married at a certain point? How were they able to get it hard with a woman and then the day after announce that they are completely gay? I just never understood these gay guys who used to be attracted to women and not any more...


    BECAUSE THE CHOICE WAS TO DENY THEIR REAL SELF.

    It's a hard choice to live with. I speak from experience.
  • xanadude Posts: 408
    QUOTE Jun 07, 2012 5:34 PM GMT
    The reality is, all Christians "cherry pick" the Bible -- that is to say, they take what they want/need from it, and overlook the rest. Sometimes this is self-serving, sometimes it's just common sense. Take for example this open letter address to Dr. Laura Schlessinger in the 90's when she publicly denounced homosexuality as normal:

    ********

    Dear Dr. Laura:

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

    When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

    A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

    Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

    Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

    *****

    Most everyone in the modern world would acknowledge the sarcastically-toned "laws/sins" as ridiculous, and no one I know of in the western world actually follows these laws -- even though the Bible states that these things should be followed. Why is homosexuality -- as a consentual act between the parties involved -- exempt from the same consideration? You have to give yourself a break. Human sexuality is an extremely complex matter that the Bible doesn't even begin to address (over all, it's rather anti-sex ie. referring to it as "original sin"). Find an unbiased professional who can help you get through this. Best of luck! xo
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jul 11, 2012 7:34 AM GMT
    Hey everybody,
    I really appreciate the fact that so many people took the time and effort to actually read through this and follow this and reply! I think in my opinion that there are A LOT of people out there that care for others and that sometime you don't realise how much you are actually cared for and loved when you reach out for help - so thank you very much!

    On topic though I think I have come to the conclusion of my answer. I know this probably cause a bit of a clash in beliefs between myself and others... but I believe living a life of celibacy. It will be hard at times and it may get lonely but God will provide the strength for me. I can do it and this isn't God's way of punishing me or anything of the alike. I believe that God works in different way from what we think and expect. Maybe me being gay as a good thing so I can give strength and talk to homosexuals about God. Yeah I do still struggle with homosexual urges by all means I am not saying I am 'cured' and I may not ever be it's just the way it is and there is a really good reason why.

    In my opinion if I had a friend or met somebody who was gay and had been through similar things like me and was a committed Christian and lived a life of celibacy and told me I can do it too and it will be alright. It would have made my journey much pleasant and happier. We all need to be together stick with another and support others. Love everybody like you love yourself. I just want to be able to help people and tell people the word of God and touch their hearts this is just a short life. So yeah thanks once again everybody it really helped me!

    L
  • LJay Posts: 6909
    QUOTE Jul 11, 2012 8:05 AM GMT
    God don't make no junk.
  • theheretic Posts: 9
    QUOTE Jul 11, 2012 9:13 AM GMT
    if christianity were as much about love and tolerance as it claimed, this wouldn't even be a question.
  • Posted by a hidden member.Log in to view his profile
    QUOTE Jul 11, 2012 10:41 AM GMT
    Let's not forget that according to the bible, it was two heterosexuals that fucked up everything, got us tossed out of the garden of eden, angered god, etc. Adam and Eve ruined everything, not Adam and Steve, at least according to the mythology to which you subscribe.