Recent Church Shooting

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 3:32 PM GMT
    We owe some gratitude to the churches who teach tolerance. They risk their lives to stand up to those ignorant few who are narrow minded and hate us.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080728/ap_on_re_us/church_shooting

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 3:50 PM GMT
    I guess...

    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place? It's like thanking the guy who saved people from drowning when it was him who sank the boat.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 3:54 PM GMT
    Sedative saidI guess...

    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place? It's like thanking the guy who saved people from drowning when it was him who sank the boat in the first place.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil.


    I don't think the Unitarians have taught an ounce of intolerance in their history. These are the same people that read from the Bible, Talmud, and Bhagavigita in the same service.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 3:57 PM GMT
    I'm not familiar with unitarians. They aren't just another protestant branchoff are they?

    In that case, my bad. Still, the point is, the man killed those Unitarians because another Church told him that what they were teaching was evil.
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Jul 28, 2008 4:41 PM GMT
    Sedative said
    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place?


    Change has to start somewhere.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 4:54 PM GMT
    ShawnTX said
    Sedative said
    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place?


    Change has to start somewhere.


    If you need help changing out of those red briefs, you call me, ok STX?
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Jul 28, 2008 4:57 PM GMT
    Dirty bitch...how dare you?


    I'll be right over
  • joggerva

    Posts: 731

    Jul 28, 2008 5:52 PM GMT
    Sedative saidI'm not familiar with unitarians. They aren't just another protestant branchoff are they?

    In that case, my bad. Still, the point is, the man killed those Unitarians because another Church told him that what they were teaching was evil.


    Technically, yes, the Unitarian Universalist (UU) church did grow from Protestant roots; however, it is not considered a Christian religion. One can be a Christian UU, a Buddhist UU, etc... or (as in my case) an agnostic UU.

    I personally feel funny using the terms religion and church to describe UU, since there is really no dogma. The closest we come are the UU principles, which are to affirm and promote:
    -The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
    -Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
    -Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
    -A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
    -The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
    -The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
    -Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part


    That said, my heart goes out to the family and friends of the victims of this unfortunate incident.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 6:50 PM GMT
    joggerva said
    Sedative saidI'm not familiar with unitarians. They aren't just another protestant branchoff are they?

    In that case, my bad. Still, the point is, the man killed those Unitarians because another Church told him that what they were teaching was evil.


    Technically, yes, the Unitarian Universalist (UU) church did grow from Protestant roots; however, it is not considered a Christian religion. One can be a Christian UU, a Buddhist UU, etc... or (as in my case) an agnostic UU.

    I personally feel funny using the terms religion and church to describe UU, since there is really no dogma. The closest we come are the UU principles, which are to affirm and promote:
    -The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
    -Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
    -Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
    -A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
    -The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
    -The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
    -Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part


    That said, my heart goes out to the family and friends of the victims of this unfortunate incident.


    In that case, that is the BEST 'religion' I've seen so far.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 7:10 PM GMT
    Sedative said

    In that case, that is the BEST 'religion' I've seen so far.


    Sounds like you're coming from the same kind of ignorance-based intolerance that you're accusing the Universalists of. Do some research before spouting off on something you know nothing about!

    The Universalists were among the very few that truly embraced the concept of love and acceptance for those the other religions oppressed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 7:27 PM GMT
    zeebyaboi said
    Sedative said

    In that case, that is the BEST 'religion' I've seen so far.


    Sounds like you're coming from the same kind of ignorance-based intolerance that you're accusing the Universalists of. Do some research before spouting off on something you know nothing about!

    The Universalists were among the very few that truly embraced the concept of love and acceptance for those the other religions oppressed.


    >.>

    WTF?! I was praising it, dude.

    And you can't blame me for not knowing what it was, either. We don't have Unitarian churches here and lord knows I've seen enough of protestant churches and the Catholic church, to know that most of them only differ very little from each other.

    'Ignorance-based' intolerance? when the fuck did I accuse Unitarians that?! I meant the CHURCH as in the whole Christian Money Machine.

    Get off your high-horse for a minute and smell the rich fetid decay religions have made of this 'Eden' and then maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from.

    Either way, if that is really how Unitarians practice, then more power. We need more people like that.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 7:44 PM GMT
    Sedative said
    zeebyaboi said
    Sedative said

    In that case, that is the BEST 'religion' I've seen so far.


    Sounds like you're coming from the same kind of ignorance-based intolerance that you're accusing the Universalists of. Do some research before spouting off on something you know nothing about!

    The Universalists were among the very few that truly embraced the concept of love and acceptance for those the other religions oppressed.


    >.>

    WTF?! I was praising it, dude.

    And you can't blame me for not knowing what it was, either. We don't have Unitarian churches here and lord knows I've seen enough of protestant churches and the Catholic church, to know that most of them only differ very little from each other.

    'Ignorance-based' intolerance? when the fuck did I accuse Unitarians that?! I meant the CHURCH as in the whole Christian Money Machine.

    Get off your high-horse for a minute and smell the rich fetid decay religions have made of this 'Eden' and then maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from.

    Either way, if that is really how Unitarians practice, then more power. We need more people like that.


    You were only "praising" it after several others jumped on you and pointed out that your foot was in your mouth.
  • Tyinstl

    Posts: 353

    Jul 28, 2008 8:03 PM GMT
    I went to a Unitarian church once. Instead of a hymn at the beginning, someone played Mozart on a piano. Then they read a passage from Leaves of Grass and then there was a sermon against road rage or something. It seemed like a very secular church, praising earthly beauty instead of God.

    It seems like there's a good message associated with it, but I just don't have the spiritual fortitude to follow a religion if it doesn't tell me I'll go to hell if I don't.
  • joggerva

    Posts: 731

    Jul 28, 2008 8:23 PM GMT
    Tyinstl saidI went to a Unitarian church once. Instead of a hymn at the beginning, someone played Mozart on a piano. Then they read a passage from Leaves of Grass and then there was a sermon against road rage or something. It seemed like a very secular church, praising earthly beauty instead of God.

    It seems like there's a good message associated with it, but I just don't have the spiritual fortitude to follow a religion if it doesn't tell me I'll go to hell if I don't.


    Haha, that sounds like a fairly typical UU service. Except I would modify the sentence to say "praising earthly beauty and/or God," as the church-goers at my church praise either or both.

    I would definitely recommend to anyone interested in Unitarian Universalism to visit a church more than once. Services range from practical (e.g. avoiding road rage, hehe) to intellectual (e.g. study of early Christianity) to spiritual (e.g. flower communions).
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 8:45 PM GMT
    zeebyaboi said
    Sedative said
    zeebyaboi said
    Sedative said

    In that case, that is the BEST 'religion' I've seen so far.


    Sounds like you're coming from the same kind of ignorance-based intolerance that you're accusing the Universalists of. Do some research before spouting off on something you know nothing about!

    The Universalists were among the very few that truly embraced the concept of love and acceptance for those the other religions oppressed.


    >.>

    WTF?! I was praising it, dude.

    And you can't blame me for not knowing what it was, either. We don't have Unitarian churches here and lord knows I've seen enough of protestant churches and the Catholic church, to know that most of them only differ very little from each other.

    'Ignorance-based' intolerance? when the fuck did I accuse Unitarians that?! I meant the CHURCH as in the whole Christian Money Machine.

    Get off your high-horse for a minute and smell the rich fetid decay religions have made of this 'Eden' and then maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from.

    Either way, if that is really how Unitarians practice, then more power. We need more people like that.


    You were only "praising" it after several others jumped on you and pointed out that your foot was in your mouth.


    Oh WTF. *exasperated sigh* DOH! icon_rolleyes.gif Of course I only praised it after I knew what it was. The fact that I was skeptical in my first post was because it didn't even register to me that a Unitarian church is any different from an LDS church or whatever precisely because they don't exist (or have very little following) in non-western countries.

    If I posted something about the Iglesia ni Kristo church here would you know anything about it at all?

    And PLEASE, READ MY POST AGAIN.

    I guess...

    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place? It's like thanking the guy who saved people from drowning when it was him who sank the boat.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil.


    Did I mention anything specific to the Unitarians?! AT ALL? I meant churches as a whole. If you persist in taking a general remark against the sins of organized religion as a specific attack against your church, then all I can say is WTF?!

    I readily admitted that I was wrong, can you do that yourself?

    I'm not familiar with unitarians. They aren't just another protestant branchoff are they?

    In that case, my bad. Still, the point is, the man killed those Unitarians because another Church told him that what they were teaching was evil.


    If you can not understand subtilities in posts, I suggest interpreting it more positively, because I did NOT attack Unitarians.

    What the fuck's your problem, anyway? You have a 'high horse complex' a mile high, you can't even see past your own nose.

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/234563/

    And, btw, I really like the things joggerva enumerated about the Unitarian church, if you again assume I was merely (your quotes) "praising" it, you need to get past the cynicism blinding you, because I'm telling the truth.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 8:59 PM GMT
    Um, Sed, I think what he was trying to say, a tad indelicately was, "Do a little research before you make assumptions."

    I had a similar reaction, reading your post which was basically, "Does he even know what he's talking about?"

    Your statement:

    "And you can't blame me for not knowing what it was, either...'Ignorance-based' intolerance? when the fuck did I accuse Unitarians that?! I meant the CHURCH as in the whole Christian Money Machine."

    could have just as easily been used in reference to homos as in "I spouted off about faggots because I didn't know about them as people and I'm just meant faggots in general, not you specifically....

    See what I mean?
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Jul 28, 2008 9:10 PM GMT
    Sedative saidI guess...

    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place? It's like thanking the guy who saved people from drowning when it was him who sank the boat.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil.



    Sorry Sed, but I have to say this. I'm going to Church all my life (I'm 40) and I have never been taught to hate anyone. You may not believe that, but it is the truth. If it did teach hate, I would not be still going.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil. Can I ask how you know this icon_question.gif

  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Jul 28, 2008 9:20 PM GMT
    Supposedly this man did this because he thought the "Liberals" were at fault for all that was wrong in his life

    I guess he never figured out that he was a Mugwhump unemployed loser and didn't need any help with that in the first place

    But his wife came out and said, "He needed help a long time ago and never got it"

    But yet he was still able to get a Gun from a pawn shop
    and kill two innocent people didn't he?

    This reeks of ALL the rightwing rhetoric that's wrong in this country
    we have Hours upon Hours of basically hate speach going on Especially down there in the Bible belt that goes on unanswered ans has been for years
    Where people like Hannity and Michael Savage call Liberalism a "virus" that is infecting our children and who call homosexuals pedophiles
    is it any wonder some simpleton grabs himself a gun eventually??
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 9:31 PM GMT
    Wraith saidUm, Sed, I think what he was trying to say, a tad indelicately was, "Do a little research before you make assumptions."

    I had a similar reaction, reading your post which was basically, "Does he even know what he's talking about?"

    Your statement:

    "And you can't blame me for not knowing what it was, either...'Ignorance-based' intolerance? when the fuck did I accuse Unitarians that?! I meant the CHURCH as in the whole Christian Money Machine."

    could have just as easily been used in reference to homos as in "I spouted off about faggots because I didn't know about them as people and I'm just meant faggots in general, not you specifically....

    See what I mean?


    No I honestly don't. I don't think you got my point either. Here's what happened, I scanned the article, the words Unitarian Universalist Church were there but just didn't register as anything special to me other than some other fancy name for another protestant church.

    Which was why I lumped it all together with all other Christian churches, who undeniably are mostly extremely homophobic.

    The faggot analogy doesn't make sense too.

    • Firstly because, I NEVER spouted off against the Unitarians! My post pertained to most Christian Churches, which even you can't deny, all treat homosexuality as a sin. Which is what I meant when I said 'in general'.

      I spouted off against Christian organized Churches and not Unitarians.

      Using the faggot analogy: Humans and not Faggots


    • Notice how I specifically placed quotation marks around 'religion' after joggerva clarified my mistake, because even you'd have to admit, Unitarians are totally atypical of most churches.

      If they are indeed what joggerva enumerated, then I wouldn't even consider it a 'Christian church'.

      I spouted off against Christian Churches though I do not consider Unitarians, Christian.

      Using the faggot analogy: I disparaged humans, and I don't consider faggots humans but angels (bear with me, it's YOUR example)


    • The point, I never even mentioned Unitarians, and he makes it sound like I attacked a very good church (which it is) specifically out of ignorance. Because the point I made in my first post was against the Christian Churches which believe me, I know very well.

      I spouted off about a subject I knew very well - Christian Churches, a subject I'm far from ignorant of.

      Using the faggot analogy: I spouted off against humans because I know humans very well and I only found out about a subspecies of humans called faggots. (Ok, see how the faggot analogy is totally inapplicable. Blah!)


    That said, I knew what I felt when I said it, and it wasn't against the Unitarians. I admitted I was wrong in assuming Unitarians are simply like every other Christian church, almost 99% of which regard homosexuality and liberal ideas as sinful. I do not appreciate his implication that it was a personal attack against his church.

    Think of it this way: Imagine that the church shooting happened in a Mormon Church. That was what I was envisioning when I wrote the first post. Is that clear enough.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 9:35 PM GMT
    MikePhil said
    Sedative saidI guess...

    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place? It's like thanking the guy who saved people from drowning when it was him who sank the boat.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil.



    Sorry Sed, but I have to say this. I'm going to Church all my life (I'm 40) and I have never been taught to hate anyone. You may not believe that, but it is the truth. If it did teach hate, I would not be still going.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil. Can I ask how you know this icon_question.gif



    Has one not seen the movie PRIEST?

    It's based in Ireland, and about all the hate a gay priest receives, from the top, right down to the peasants.

    Next time you are at church, and you mince up to take part in the sacrament, something you religion teachers you are not entitled to, because of your sexuality!

    Put on a Rainbow vest and try to receive the sacrament, and then see how tolerant your church is.

    The late Pope said: "any county to give homosexuals equality, is deranged." This Pope has closed the door to homosexuals becoming priests.


    Or do you have the ability to only hear what you want to hear?

    Your Religion has a very long and public history of intolerance; that why it is called the dark ages.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 9:37 PM GMT
    MikePhil said
    Sedative saidI guess...

    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place? It's like thanking the guy who saved people from drowning when it was him who sank the boat.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil.



    Sorry Sed, but I have to say this. I'm going to Church all my life (I'm 40) and I have never been taught to hate anyone. You may not believe that, but it is the truth. If it did teach hate, I would not be still going.

    The man shot those guys because he had been taught by the same religion that being tolerant is evil. Can I ask how you know this icon_question.gif



    Mike, I don't want this to turn into another flame war. But please don't deny how the church treats homosexuality. I grew up in a Catholic family too, and I know exactly how intolerant it is of ideas that go against its teachings.

    Examples here in the Philippines:

    1) Homosexuality is still considered a sin. I doubt same-gender marriage will ever be adopted here because the country is like 95%+ Catholic.

    2) Birth Control is evil. The church actively discourages condoms in sermons.

    3) I went to a sermon once when I was younger which was basically a hate speech against 'pagans' and how it was our duty to convert them. It was a thinly veiled attack on Muslims and other Faiths. Is that tolerance?

    That said, I have no doubt your local church do teach tolerance which is why you're still going. But that is NOT the case with most churches. You and I both know that.

    Ok, I'm off this thread.
  • e2e4islong

    Posts: 4

    Jul 28, 2008 9:42 PM GMT
    so...

    yeah...

    i think that horse is pretty damn dead...

    seems this thread is caught on a conundrum...i.e. - do we reprimand ignorance harshly and discourage people from speaking up at all, thereby hiding their ignorance and continuing to allow it to exist, or do we patiently educate any and all with the possibility of encouraging intellectual laziness and torpidity while also opening to door to a plea of ignorance as alibi/excuse/rationale that allows perpetrator to keep perpetrating?

    it's a tough one. i think political correctness gets tripped up on this one, also...but that's neither here nor there.

    for me, i am thoroughly convinced of my ignorance and fully accept i don't know everything about everything so typically welcome any education i may encounter/experience.

    i also believe any dialogue has eye-opening and opinion changing potential and therefore welcome it, so...i'm not really clarifying much of anything, am i? icon_confused.gif
  • joggerva

    Posts: 731

    Jul 28, 2008 9:47 PM GMT
    I guess we should have expected a thread mentioning religion to turn into a flame war.

    Guys, Sedative realized he made an assumption about the Unitarian church based on his feelings about the Christian church. When he realized the nature of Unitarian churches, he apologized ("my bad") and praised the Unitarian church. Strangely, it wasn't until he apologized and changed his assumption about the Unitarian church that people started responding to his earlier statements.

    Apologies are so rare on these forums, please respect them.

    Now, back on topic... the article has been updated with more information, if you are interested. The following heartbreaking quote is included:

    Church member Amy BroylesThis was a man who was hurt in the world and feeling that nothing was going his way. He turned the gun on people who were mostly likely to treat him lovingly and compassionately and be the ones to help someone in that situation.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 9:47 PM GMT
    e2e4islong said
    seems this thread is caught on a conundrum...i.e. - do we reprimand ignorance harshly and discourage people from speaking up at all, thereby hiding their ignorance and continuing to allow it to exist, or do we patiently educate any and all with the possibility of encouraging intellectual laziness and torpidity while also opening to door to a plea of ignorance as alibi/excuse/rationale that allows perpetrator to keep perpetrating?

    it's a tough one. i think political correctness gets tripped up on this one, also...but that's neither here nor there.

    for me, i am thoroughly convinced of my ignorance and fully accept i don't know everything about everything so typically welcome any education i may encounter/experience.


    Okay, I do not get this passionate unless I am DAMN SURE I did nothing wrong.

    I do not have a problem with admitting ignorance nor mistakes. As is evident in my second post. What I have a problem with is guys misinterpreting what I said so completely, I don't recognize it at all as my original thought.

    Here is what I said, the 'church' i am referring to is Christian Churches in general, can you please tell me what's ignorant or wrong about this statement?:

    Thanks for espousing tolerance in a church that taught the hate in the first place? It's like thanking the guy who saved people from drowning when it was him who sank the boat.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2008 9:50 PM GMT
    joggerva saidI guess we should have expected a thread mentioning religion to turn into a flame war.

    Guys, Sedative realized he made an assumption about the Unitarian church based on his feelings about the Christian church. When he realized the nature of Unitarian churches, he apologized ("my bad") and praised the Unitarian church. Strangely, it wasn't until he apologized and changed his assumption about the Unitarian church that people started responding to his earlier statements.

    Apologies are so rare on these forums, please respect them.

    Now, back on topic... the article has been updated with more information, if you are interested. The following heartbreaking quote is included:

    Church member Amy BroylesThis was a man who was hurt in the world and feeling that nothing was going his way. He turned the gun on people who were mostly likely to treat him lovingly and compassionately and be the ones to help someone in that situation.


    Thank you. icon_redface.gif Now I'm too mad to comment further though. BBL