"Proud" to be gay...

  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Jun 11, 2012 2:43 PM GMT
    I've always had trouble with this phrase. As I understand it, pride is based off achievements, accomplishments, and overcoming struggles. It is not about a quality that simply is. To take pride in being gay, to me, implies that being gay is n accomplishment, something you moved towards. In effect implying gay is something chosen and struggled to achieve.

    I mean, one can definitely take pride in the hardships overcome to come out, find equality and acceptance, etc. but the state itself just is...

    I've felt the same ah about similar things like race, or other physical characteristics.
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    Jun 11, 2012 3:33 PM GMT
    Hear, hear. I am neither proud nor ashamed of being gay. I'm just gay.
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    Jun 11, 2012 3:40 PM GMT
    Good lord, don't you have any sense of history? In the olden days "gay pride" was an antidote to gay shame, which is what everyone said you should feel. Sounds corny now, in light of how far we've come (at least in many Western countries), but it meant a lot to me when I was younger.
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Jun 11, 2012 3:50 PM GMT
    showme saidGood lord, don't you have any sense of history? In the olden days "gay pride" was an antidote to gay shame, which is what everyone said you should feel. Sounds corny now, in light of how far we've come (at least in many Western countries), but it meant a lot to me when I was younger.


    I'm well aware of what's happened in the past. However, to me, that choice of wording implies things much different than what we claim. It creates quite a contradiction, despite historical usage of the term...

    Just a thought though.
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    Jun 11, 2012 5:25 PM GMT
    Medjai saidI've always had trouble with this phrase. As I understand it, pride is based off achievements, accomplishments, and overcoming struggles. It is not about a quality that simply is. To take pride in being gay, to me, implies that being gay is n accomplishment, something you moved towards. In effect implying gay is something chosen and struggled to achieve.

    I mean, one can definitely take pride in the hardships overcome to come out, find equality and acceptance, etc. but the state itself just is...

    I've felt the same ah about similar things like race, or other physical characteristics.


    YES!

    The term "Gay Pride" always annoyed the hell out of me.
    Why in the world would I be proud of being gay?

    I'll admit, I didn't now about what showme mentioned, but still.

    >:[
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    Jun 11, 2012 5:36 PM GMT
    Medjai saidI've always had trouble with this phrase. As I understand it, pride is based off achievements, accomplishments, and overcoming struggles. It is not about a quality that simply is. To take pride in being gay, to me, implies that being gay is n accomplishment, something you moved towards. In effect implying gay is something chosen and struggled to achieve.

    I mean, one can definitely take pride in the hardships overcome to come out, find equality and acceptance, etc. but the state itself just is...

    I've felt the same ah about similar things like race, or other physical characteristics.


    Seems like writing out "taking pride in hardship and adversity I overcame" etc. would make for a really long, wordy, and boring pride float.
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    Jun 11, 2012 5:36 PM GMT
    Medjai saidI've always had trouble with this phrase. As I understand it, pride is based off achievements, accomplishments, and overcoming struggles. It is not about a quality that simply is. To take pride in being gay, to me, implies that being gay is n accomplishment, something you moved towards. In effect implying gay is something chosen and struggled to achieve.

    I mean, one can definitely take pride in the hardships overcome to come out, find equality and acceptance, etc. but the state itself just is...

    I've felt the same ah about similar things like race, or other physical characteristics.


    I'm probably going to get attacked for my views on this, but here we go. I'm not a fan of the concept of "gay pride"--or "black pride" or "Irish pride" or any other kind of pride. To me, it unintentionally gives credence to the opposition's idea that there's something with which we should be ashamed. I don't feel ashamed to be gay, but I'm also not proud. I am who I am. Being gay is just one small part of who I am. I'm not proud of being white, having blue eyes, liking baseball, or going to the gym. Why? Because I'm proud of who I am--not just a single characteristic.

    Furthermore, I feel like "pride" (in general) fixates on the differences in all of us rather than the similarities. During a time we're fighting for equal rights on marriage, employment protection, healthcare equality, etc., we should be focused on showing people our similarities with our straight brethren. We are all so much more than the person we have sex with.

    I think it's great that people are happy with who they are, and I love the greater levels of acceptance we're experiencing. If you want to go to pride, by all means. Have a great time. Enjoy yourself. I think it's great. I see things a little differently.
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Jun 11, 2012 5:37 PM GMT
    uoft23 said
    Medjai saidI've always had trouble with this phrase. As I understand it, pride is based off achievements, accomplishments, and overcoming struggles. It is not about a quality that simply is. To take pride in being gay, to me, implies that being gay is n accomplishment, something you moved towards. In effect implying gay is something chosen and struggled to achieve.

    I mean, one can definitely take pride in the hardships overcome to come out, find equality and acceptance, etc. but the state itself just is...

    I've felt the same ah about similar things like race, or other physical characteristics.


    Seems like writing out "taking pride in hardship and adversity I overcame" etc. would make for a really long, wordy, and boring pride float.


    Well, considering the parades are silly anyways, I hardly think it matters. But that's another topic altogether.
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    Jun 11, 2012 5:42 PM GMT
    redsoxfan791 said
    Medjai saidI've always had trouble with this phrase. As I understand it, pride is based off achievements, accomplishments, and overcoming struggles. It is not about a quality that simply is. To take pride in being gay, to me, implies that being gay is n accomplishment, something you moved towards. In effect implying gay is something chosen and struggled to achieve.

    I mean, one can definitely take pride in the hardships overcome to come out, find equality and acceptance, etc. but the state itself just is...

    I've felt the same ah about similar things like race, or other physical characteristics.


    I'm probably going to get attacked for my views on this, but here we go. I'm not a fan of the concept of "gay pride"--or "black pride" or "Irish pride" or any other kind of pride. To me, it unintentionally gives credence to the opposition's idea that there's something with which we should be ashamed. I don't feel ashamed to be gay, but I'm also not proud. I am who I am. Being gay is just one small part of who I am. I'm not proud of being white, having blue eyes, liking baseball, or going to the gym. Why? Because I'm proud of who I am--not just a single characteristic.

    Furthermore, I feel like "pride" (in general) fixates on the differences in all of us rather than the similarities. During a time we're fighting for equal rights on marriage, employment protection, healthcare equality, etc., we should be focused on showing people our similarities with our straight brethren. We are all so much more than the person we have sex with.

    I think it's great that people are happy with who they are, and I love the greater levels of acceptance we're experiencing. If you want to go to pride, by all means. Have a great time. Enjoy yourself. I think it's great. I see things a little differently.


    Nah, I agree with you completely. I was going to even post some of the views mentioned, but I didn't think anyone would care. Especially the "being gay is only a small part of me" part.

    I'm more than just homosexual. Being gay doesn't make up the person I am. It's an important part, yes. But there are so many more aspects that define me as well. Focusing on one just seems silly.

    One day maybe I'll go to a pride event, but I refuse to at this point.
    Nothing on people that go to them though. They look like they can be fun.
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    Jun 11, 2012 5:52 PM GMT
    I am proud of being gay because it's part of being me. Just like I'm proud of being Jewish and proud of being Israeli and proud of being Zionist and proud of being brunette and proud of being a linguist and proud of being a martial artist and proud of being a homeowner, etc.

    Gay Pride is an antidote to gay shame.

    If gay pride bothers you don't look at it.
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:05 PM GMT
    In this case, the pride is vis-a-vís the denigration and contempt that society has traditionally held homosexuals. Perhaps, "I am not ashamed" is a better way to put it, but"proud" does the job fine and more succinctly. If society didn't have its head up its ass, none of this would be necessary.

    Ah, to be 24 and innocent.
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:09 PM GMT
    Caslon19000 saidAh, to be 24 and innocent.


    No kidding. icon_razz.gif
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:10 PM GMT
    LIEV saidI am proud of being gay because it's part of being me. Just like I'm proud of being Jewish and proud of being Israeli and proud of being Zionist and proud of being brunette and proud of being a linguist and proud of being a martial artist and proud of being a homeowner, etc.

    Gay Pride is an antidote to gay shame.

    If gay pride bothers you don't look at it.


    Just to play devil's advocate (and not troll or be argumentative), why do we have to break things down. Why can't we just be happy with ourselves as a whole? Isn't that the whole point of life? We work on being comfortable with ourselves one piece at a time. If your really proud of where you've gotten, should it matter that you're proud of each individual piece?

    Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "If gay pride bothers you don't look at it." That's like saying that people who are pro-choice are pro-abortion...or being anti-war means you're against the troops. Not being on board with "gay pride" as a concept doesn't mean that we don't support those that do. It's a difference of opinion.

    There is a place for everyone, not just those who agree with our own point of view. Sadly, that's what people seem to forget. It's one of the reasons our country is so divided. We're so wrapped up in our own differences, that we fail to see the rational point of view--we're all humans.
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:11 PM GMT
    I tend to agree with the OP's comments. I think it's important to have 'gay pride' events to show that we aren't ashamed of being gay. One shouldn't be ashamed of what one is (be it their race or sexual orientation). However, in the same token, there's no intrinsic pride associated with being gay either. Pride & shame imply a choice; and, most of us will agree, that being gay is not a choice.
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:19 PM GMT
    I think you might be thinking ahead of the curve. In a society where there would be no shame about being gay in the first place, I don't think people would be talking about gay pride.

    But since being gay is still ridiculed if not condemned , leading us to feel ashamed, pride is the immediate natural response you have when you get to the stage where you embrace your identity as a whole after being put down for so long.
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:23 PM GMT
    Self-pride is the foundation of all self-esteem. It is a feeling of self-worth that is derived from nothing more than being proud of yourself as a living, breathing human being. You don't need subjective markers of achievement to feel pride in yourself. You can (and should) be proud of your mere existence, in and of everything that makes you who you are (including being gay).
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:25 PM GMT
    Saad22 saidI think you might be thinking ahead of the curve. In a society where there would be no shame about being gay in the first place, I don't think people would be talking about gay pride.

    But since being gay is still ridiculed if not condemned , leading us to feel ashamed, pride is the immediate natural response you have when you get to the stage where you embrace your identity as a whole after being put down for so long.

    Well said.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Jun 11, 2012 6:25 PM GMT
    i'm proud to be gay in the sense the whole world makes it a big deal, wants me to be in the closet, want to deny me rights... basically wants me to go away, and i refuse to go gentle into that good night.
  • jim_sf

    Posts: 2094

    Jun 11, 2012 6:28 PM GMT
    Saad22 saidI think you might be thinking ahead of the curve. In a society where there would be no shame about being gay in the first place, I don't think people would be talking about gay pride.

    But since being gay is still ridiculed if not condemned , leading us to feel ashamed, pride is the immediate natural response you have when you get to the stage where you embrace your identity as a whole after being put down for so long.


    This.

    I think there's also a lot of people conflating "having same-sex attraction" with "being openly gay". One is an innate facet of existence, and doesn't deserve a parade. The other takes deliberate and ongoing action, despite social and legal and religious pressures to the contrary, and that does deserve recognition.

    Perhaps it would be more useful if, instead of calling it "pride", we called it "honesty".
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:38 PM GMT
    You are entitled to your opinions, but why the negativity? What does it accomplish? What does it add to your life? Or anyone else's here for that matter?

    Just a when people say they are proud to be Irish or Italian, they are saying they are proud of the struggeles their ancestors overcame to come to this country. They aren't necessarily saying they did anything in particular to be proud of as an Irish or Italian; they are proud of their people's accomplishments. This is the same as when a parent is proud of their child's accomplishments. The parent didn't put in the hours at the piano, practicing at dance, or studying, but they still feel a sense of pride in their child.

    I feel the same way when I think of the gay men and women who paved the way for future gay men and women with the adversity and bigotry they endured to get us to this point in time. And in my own little way I am proud that I am doing my part by being a proud gay man who isn't afraid to stand up to bigotry and hatred so that the gay men and women who come after me can be proud and continue the march forward.
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:44 PM GMT
    DTP_82 said
    Medjai saidI've always had trouble with this phrase. As I understand it, pride is based off achievements, accomplishments, and overcoming struggles. It is not about a quality that simply is. To take pride in being gay, to me, implies that being gay is n accomplishment, something you moved towards. In effect implying gay is something chosen and struggled to achieve.

    I mean, one can definitely take pride in the hardships overcome to come out, find equality and acceptance, etc. but the state itself just is...

    I've felt the same ah about similar things like race, or other physical characteristics.


    YES!

    The term "Gay Pride" always annoyed the hell out of me.
    Why in the world would I be proud of being gay?

    I'll admit, I didn't now about what showme mentioned, but still.

    >:[


    Well the alternative "Gay Shame" should "annoy the hell out of [you]" even more.

    Why in the world should you be ashamed of being gay?
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:44 PM GMT
    OK you guys

    I think everyone in this thread is being a bit egocentric here.
    Here's what I got out of the notion of gay pride:

    In the last century homosexual men have had to overcome discrimination and have had to fight for their rights to be gay....
    These days things are maybe not all where it's supposed to be but we have come far and are starting to be treated as equal human beings all across the globe. I am proud of the struggle that has been overcome and that I can be who I feel I am. I am immensely proud of all the men who came out as gay in times that this meant their whole life would change.
    They have fought for young men like me.

    I would never be against "pride" for that simple reason. I am not proud necessarily that I am gay, but I am definitely proud that I can live a gay lifestyle without this having any consequences for the rest of my life.

    I have every other gay man to thank for this who overcomes a bit of discrimination each time he asks for acceptance from the rest of the world by coming out.

    I am proud that I have also found the courage to come out and to live a lifestyle which is accepted, partly because that acceptance is what I wished for.
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:53 PM GMT
    The other 364 days of the year that aren't Gay Pride are reserved for Straight Pride.

    The entirety of human civilization is designed for the sole purpose of furthering procreation and making it easier for men and women to meet, fuck and have children.

    Gays want one day, one measly day out of a whole damn year to say "WE EXIST!" and some people scream, bitch, moan and whine about it.
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    Jun 11, 2012 7:10 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidYou are entitled to your opinions, but why the negativity? What does it accomplish? What does it add to your life? Or anyone else's here for that matter?

    Just a when people say they are proud to be Irish or Italian, they are saying they are proud of the struggeles their ancestors overcame to come to this country. They aren't necessarily saying they did anything in particular to be proud of as an Irish or Italian; they are proud of their people's accomplishments. This is the same as when a parent is proud of their child's accomplishments. The parent didn't put in the hours at the piano, practicing at dance, or studying, but they still feel a sense of pride in their child.

    I feel the same way when I think of the gay men and women who paved the way for future gay men and women with the adversity and bigotry they endured to get us to this point in time. And in my own little way I am proud that I am doing my part by being a proud gay man who isn't afraid to stand up to bigotry and hatred so that the gay men and women who come after me can be proud and continue the march forward.


    I'm not sure if this was directed at me (and if it wasn't, please ignore it), but I support the people participating in gay pride. I choose not to participate myself. It's not negativity. It's just a difference of opinion.
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    Jun 11, 2012 7:11 PM GMT
    LIEV saidThe other 364 days of the year that aren't Gay Pride are reserved for Straight Pride.

    The entirety of human civilization is designed for the sole purpose of furthering procreation and making it easier for men and women to meet, fuck and have children.

    Gays want one day, one measly day out of a whole damn year to say "WE EXIST!" and some people scream, bitch, moan and whine about it.


    I've said it before in these forums and I'll say it again. I DO NOT NEED one day called GAY PRIDE. Everyday is GAY PRIDE for me. I walk down the street holding my guy's hand, hug him in public, kiss him in public, lay my head on his shoulder in movie theatres, etc. Everyday I'm in-your-face to the straight population saying "I EXIST!"

    I understand all gay men and women are not as comfortable with individual PDAs as I and my partner are, so I am perfectly happy for them to have a single day out of the year where they feel safety in numbers, but I can't help but wonder if all gay men and women were to parade their gay pride the other 364 days of the year as so many others do, how much more further along we would be in societal acceptance.

    Remember when an interracial couple would turn heads and ellicit rude comments? Now they are so common place people hardly notice or give it a second thought. If we saturate the market so to speak as interracial couples have, I would imagine that soon enough we would become so much a part of public life on a daily basis that we wouldn't warrant a second thought.