To the people who judge "hip-hop guys"

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    Jun 11, 2012 3:30 PM GMT
    In the thread about "hIp-hop guys" there were a lot of judgmental statements being made about the music, about people who listen to it, and people who adopt elements of the culture. I couldn't help but get the feeling that many of the guys making these comments were pretty ill informed about what real hip-hop is, and what it actually sounds like. They had drawn their conclusions based on the small number of songs that record producers put out to sell on the national level. If this isn't you, then this thread doesn't apply to you.

    If all you've tried an apple and proclaimed that all fruit tasted like crap, you would be creating your opinion based on VERY LIMITED exposure. If the only hip-hop you've ever heard is what you pass over on the radio while skimming channels then it's not hard to see why you dislike what you think of As hip-hop. But if you've never heard of Lupe Fiasco, or Talib Kweli, or Childish Gambino, then you have formulated your opinion on an entire culture based on the most commercialized watered down version of the art form.

    "I'm so smart I went to taco bell and decided I hate Mexican food."

    As gay men, we are in the position to have to constantly seek understanding from others. We ask people to consider us when creating their vision of a good person, real love, a viable family etc.

    I have made friends of pretty much every type you can imagine. I had a group of friends who listened to hip-hop, all day long. one day while I was visiting them, they asked me if I was gay. I expected that to be the end of our friendship. They seemed like some of the most homophobic people I had ever met in my life, so I knew they wouldn't accept me. They instantly accepted me on a very deep level. In fact, if I'm ever frustrated about my love life, they are the only straight people I can have really deep conversations with. So the idea of someone judging them based of surface appearances, is just as infuriating to me as someone judging any one of you

    The idea that you would avoid someone because they listened to hip-hop or wore baggy pants is sad....but it's your right. Just don't expect to be able to write people off for things like their musical tastes or clothing and magically expect it to create a climate where people are interested in respecting you light of what makes you different.

    By denigrating something that you have not sufficiently sought to understand, you have undermined the very world that a lot of you seek to create.
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:01 PM GMT
    This is my repost from the other thread:

    Rap and Hip-Hop are two totally different things. Rap is an element of hip-hop, meaning just a part. You write an intelligent or non intelligent rhyme and BOOM your a rapper! Hip-Hop is the culture which contains break dancing (bboying), rapping, graffiti, and DJing. Whether we as people want to change it for better or for worse is up to us...and we can clearly see where we took this culture

    However there are those even to this day that put some realness into the culture, Drake, Lupe, Eminem, and other underground rappers who take a stand and prove that the men in hip-hop are more than pimps, pants-saggers, and misogynistic "bitch" fuckersicon_razz.gif
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:46 PM GMT
    hip-hop is dead!!!!
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    Jun 11, 2012 6:58 PM GMT
    What do you mean "real" hip hop Deki? Who are you to decide what is real and not real in regards to hip hop music? It seems you are being very disingenuous by thinking that the artists you mention represent hip hop culture. It's obvious that if they were true hip hop artists then their popularity would be off the charts by now.
    It seems there is only a very small minority of hip hop artists that actually preach about love and racial harmony. The other 95% babble on about hoes, drugs and violence. If you want to blame anybody for the bad rap (pun intended) that hip hop music has gotten then you need to blame the very artists who create it and listen to it.

    No other genre of music has artists and fans that embrace the amount the thuggery and violence that hip hop has.

    Here is a hip hop awards show that took place last year in DC. Of course, it ended with bloodshed and violence. Who is to blame for that? Us????



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    Jun 11, 2012 7:32 PM GMT
    My dislike of 'hip hop' is that it is NOT music in the sense that it takes work to 'emote' the listeners.. music is emotion.. hip hop has no 'emotion'.
    I didnt say it was not an 'art form' as it is by some, not all! Any music that is repetitive from the first stanza to the last, IMO is laziness.icon_wink.gif
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    Jun 11, 2012 7:39 PM GMT
    It's true that people confuse Hip-Hop with Rap (constantly). However, I think the biggest reason for that is because Hip-Hop and Rap are so frequently combined together in the music industry. I personally hate 99% of Rap music because of the thug postering, retarded lyrics and the constant rip-off "sampling" of other artists (although Hip-Hop is notorious for this also).

    I used to love Handsome Boy Modeling School, but they would have a great song I was really into and suddenly ruin it by suddenly starting to rap for no apparent reason. Also love the Beastie Boys, but they too are a mixture of both genres.


    For example, I love this song, but then at 2:48 this dude come in and start rapping and ruins the song (at least for me).
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    Jun 11, 2012 7:44 PM GMT
    There are SO many different sub-cultures and sub-genres of hip-hop/ rap that putting all of it in one category is kind of silly.
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    Jun 11, 2012 7:47 PM GMT
    _Thommy_ saidThere are SO many different sub-cultures and sub-genres of hip-hop/ rap that putting all of it in one category is kind of silly.



    Yes, but the same could be said for "Rock" or any other genre. Genres are a very broad classification so that the listener has some idea what type of music they're searching for. If the genres were to be broken down into sub categories, there would be little point in having genres at all.
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    Jun 11, 2012 7:58 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ saidThere are SO many different sub-cultures and sub-genres of hip-hop/ rap that putting all of it in one category is kind of silly.



    Yes, but the same could be said for "Rock" or any other genre. Genres are a very broad classification so that the listener has some idea what type of music they're searching for. If the genres were to be broken down into sub categories, there would be little point in having genres at all.


    That's true, but rock music doesn't get shit on as bad as hip-hop/ rap does.
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    Jun 11, 2012 8:05 PM GMT
    _Thommy_ said
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ saidThere are SO many different sub-cultures and sub-genres of hip-hop/ rap that putting all of it in one category is kind of silly.



    Yes, but the same could be said for "Rock" or any other genre. Genres are a very broad classification so that the listener has some idea what type of music they're searching for. If the genres were to be broken down into sub categories, there would be little point in having genres at all.


    That's true, but rock music doesn't get shit on as bad as hip-hop/ rap does.



    That's because Rock music (in general) doesn't promote racism, sexism, violence and hatred. Of course not all Rap does either, but the percentage is MUCH higher you have to admit.
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    Jun 11, 2012 8:09 PM GMT
    I don't like most hip-hop music but I find the young white guys from the east or midwest small towns really cute that do the hip-hop. It seems to bring personality out of young guys which is cool.
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    Jun 11, 2012 8:14 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ said
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ saidThere are SO many different sub-cultures and sub-genres of hip-hop/ rap that putting all of it in one category is kind of silly.



    Yes, but the same could be said for "Rock" or any other genre. Genres are a very broad classification so that the listener has some idea what type of music they're searching for. If the genres were to be broken down into sub categories, there would be little point in having genres at all.


    That's true, but rock music doesn't get shit on as bad as hip-hop/ rap does.



    That's because Rock music (in general) doesn't promote racism, sexism, violence and hatred. Of course not all Rap does either, but the percentage is MUCH higher you have to admit.


    Yeah, not gonna lie. Why do you think that is?
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    Jun 11, 2012 8:23 PM GMT
    _Thommy_ said
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ said
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ saidThere are SO many different sub-cultures and sub-genres of hip-hop/ rap that putting all of it in one category is kind of silly.



    Yes, but the same could be said for "Rock" or any other genre. Genres are a very broad classification so that the listener has some idea what type of music they're searching for. If the genres were to be broken down into sub categories, there would be little point in having genres at all.


    That's true, but rock music doesn't get shit on as bad as hip-hop/ rap does.



    That's because Rock music (in general) doesn't promote racism, sexism, violence and hatred. Of course not all Rap does either, but the percentage is MUCH higher you have to admit.


    Yeah, not gonna lie. Why do you think that is?



    Not sure exactly. Although, I know at least in my town, the black community tends to try and resolve conflict with violence. We have the highest murder rate in the nation, and almost all of it is black on black crime. Blacks here are killing each other at an unbelievable rate. As a result, a lot of the Hip-Hop/Rap artists here also have very violent lyrics, which isn't surprising. But is this the case everywhere? I really don't know.
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    Jun 11, 2012 8:40 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ said
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ said
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ saidThere are SO many different sub-cultures and sub-genres of hip-hop/ rap that putting all of it in one category is kind of silly.



    Yes, but the same could be said for "Rock" or any other genre. Genres are a very broad classification so that the listener has some idea what type of music they're searching for. If the genres were to be broken down into sub categories, there would be little point in having genres at all.


    That's true, but rock music doesn't get shit on as bad as hip-hop/ rap does.



    That's because Rock music (in general) doesn't promote racism, sexism, violence and hatred. Of course not all Rap does either, but the percentage is MUCH higher you have to admit.


    Yeah, not gonna lie. Why do you think that is?



    Not sure exactly. Although, I know at least in my town, the black community tends to try and resolve conflict with violence. We have the highest murder rate in the nation, and almost all of it is black on black crime. Blacks here are killing each other at an unbelievable rate. As a result, a lot of the Hip-Hop/Rap artists here also have very violent lyrics, which isn't surprising. But is this the case everywhere? I really don't know.


    New Orleans, yikes! Yeah, I def. see what you mean.
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    Jun 11, 2012 9:02 PM GMT
    TropicalMark said Any music that is repetitive from the first stanza to the last, IMO is laziness.icon_wink.gif


    You just called Philip Glass' sublime minimalism lazy, and them's fightin' words!
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    Jun 11, 2012 9:29 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]jmusmc85 said[/cite]What do you mean "real" hip hop Deki? Who are you to decide what is real and not real in regards to hip hop music? It seems you are being very disingenuous by thinking that the artists you mention represent hip hop culture. It's obvious that if they were true hip hop artists then their popularity would be off the charts by now.

    You pretty much just proved my point. You equated authenticity to popularity, and it's not the same thing.

    Hip-hop is created and CONSUMED, and consumption is what drives the creation of more music that will sell. And many of the consumers are not part of the culture that spawns the actual "artists"

    All of the artists i mentioned before had a harder time getting signed because they would not promote the things that the industry wanted them to. All the stuff you mentioned about hoes and violence was seen as an asset to record producers because it added a level of shock value that helped the music capture a BROADER AUDIENCE. A lot of the rappers i mentioned don't get a lot of airtime but are BETTER than the ones you hear on the radio......whose fault is that?
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    Jun 11, 2012 9:38 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ said
    Scruffypup said
    _Thommy_ saidThere are SO many different sub-cultures and sub-genres of hip-hop/ rap that putting all of it in one category is kind of silly.



    Yes, but the same could be said for "Rock" or any other genre. Genres are a very broad classification so that the listener has some idea what type of music they're searching for. If the genres were to be broken down into sub categories, there would be little point in having genres at all.


    That's true, but rock music doesn't get shit on as bad as hip-hop/ rap does.



    That's because Rock music (in general) doesn't promote racism, sexism, violence and hatred. Of course not all Rap does either, but the percentage is MUCH higher you have to admit.


    A concert held by the group "Guns N' Roses" (July 2, 1991 in St Louis, Missouri) ended when the enraged mob of 2500 youths staged a riot, resulting in 60 of their numbers being injured. The journal Rolling Stone informed that the participants in this concert, "developed into a furious uncontrollable mob, hurling bottles, destroying seats, ripping apart bushes, breaking and setting fire to instruments... This riot continued for over an hour before a squad of special police arrived to restore order. (Rolling Stone, Aug. 22, 1975 p 15). This type of violence is far from being an isolated incident.

    Sometimes, this type of frantic behavior at rock concerts leads to killings. In a town called Jefferson-Township, (New Jersey), a youth named Thomas Sullivan stabbed his mother, Betty-Ann, to death in the basement of their house. Setting fire to the divan with the aim of destroying the house and killing his father and younger brother, he ran outside and committed suicide by slashing his wrists. All week long before this carnage, Thomas had been humming a rock song about blood and killing your mother. Police later established that Thomas was a talented student, outstanding sportsman and had belonged to the Scouts. He began to dabble in "hard metal" rock music and, before committing his crime, he confided to his friends that Satan appeared to him and ordered the killing of his family.

    Different forms of violence are on the increase in rock music. For example in a song titled "I Kill Children" by rock group Dead Kennedy we hear "I kill children, I love to see them die. I kill children to make their mothers cry. I crush them under my car and I love to hear them scream. I feed them poison candy and spoil their Halloween. I kill children, I bang their heads in doors. I kill children, I can hardly wait for yours." In the album "Hell Awaits" the band Slayer has the lyrics: "No apparent motive. Just kill and kill again. Survive my brutal slashing. I'll hunt you till the end."

    Iron Maiden's mascot is "Eddy" a dead man who kills with great delight. According to Satanist and brutal murderer Richard Ramirez (the "Night Stalker"), it was AC/ DC's song "Night Prowler" that became part of his motivation to murder 30 people. He said the song gave him "inspiration. "Night Prowler" contains the stanza, "No one's gonna warn you, no one's gonna yell 'attack!' and you can't feel the steel until it's hanging out your back, I'm your night prowler."

    One study revealed that of the 700 most popular songs of "heavy metal," 50% speak of killings, 35% of satanism and 7% about suicide. Sheila Davis, professor of lyric writing at New York University, is convinced that "better give serious attention to the content of pop songs and to evaluate not only what lyrics are saying to society but, more important, what they may be doing to it" (USA Today, October 11, 1985, p. 10).

    The National Council of Churches published their findings that the growing aggressive behavior of youths appears as the direct result of the violent content of contemporary films and music (USA Today, Oct. 11, 1985).

    Parallel to the inner aggressiveness, this destructive feeling can appear directed against the music listener. Some rock music composers preach suicide - sometimes through hints and sometimes directly. For example, Ozzy Osbourne's song, "Suicide Solution" advocates suicide: "Suicide - this is the only way out..." In "Suicide's an Alternative" the following is sung: "Sick of life - it sucks / sick and tired - no one cares / sick of myself - don't wanna live / sick of living - gonna die / suicide's an alternative." "Sacrifice your life and commit suicide. By doing this in the name of satan, you will become immortal, just like him!" are some of the words sung in one of the "hard metal" songs dedicated to Lucifer.

    Educational psychologist, Dr. Hannelore Wass, considered an expert on death and dying, indicated that while only 17% of teenagers listen to music containing manifestly destructive contents, among the youthful criminals this figure reaches 40%. Apart from this, nearly 50% of those interviewed acknowledged the possibility that these types of songs could really incline an unbalanced or grief-stricken young person toward suicide. Dr. Wass concluded that these detailed interviews with young people show the need for parents to watch what their children are listening to, and to pay attention to any emerging symptoms of abnormality. (Wass, et. al, "Adolescents' Interest" p. 186, sampled 700 adolescents. The themes were: homicide, suicide and satanism. Cf. Aerosmith's "Janie's Got a Gun").

    Similar research prompted the National Education Association to conclude that nearly 6000 teenage suicides a year are brought about by the influence of nihilistic and fatalistic music (Information for Parents' Music Resource Center, Nashville, TN. 1990).

    Dr. Morton Kurlan a Palm Springs psychiatrist whose patient, John McCollum, committed suicide after listening to an Ozzy Osbourne record, stated: "Sadomasochism, blood, and violence make big bucks for the producers of rock videos, but such things can push an emotionally suffering kid over the edge" (Arthur Lyons, Satan Wants You, New York, Mysterious Press, 1988, p.171). And it is well known that millions of contemporary young people are suffering from inner tumult. At this point it is worth considering that the estranged nihilistic and destructive contents of rock-style music actually reflects the disposition and lives of the rock stars. For example, the biography of Pink Floyd Saucerful of Secrets written by band's two former leaders gives vivid examples of the personal tragedy that can stalk the lives of those who glorify excess (Cf. The 1991 Elton John interview with David Frost). Authors Schwarz and Empey observe: "In talking with some of the musicians involved in satanism, as well as individuals they have consulted - researches, psychologists, and psychics - a pattern becomes clear. Like so many others who save chosen satanism over Christianity, they have a desire for immediate gratification and self-fulfillment. 'Money Control. Power. They want the fantasy of being able to live a special life with a lot of wealth,' said a psychologist whose practice includes some of the major names in the rock business. 'And they're willing to die young to pay it off. They see that by giving life early they can have everything ...'

    The reality of this statement is obvious when you read the obituaries of rock stars. Many have died from alcoholism, drug abuse, or accidents resulting from their being under the influence of such products (Schwarz and Empey, Satanism: Is Your Family Safe? p. 154).

    The very names of some "heavy metal" groups also known as "death metal," glorify death and speak of destruction. Here are some samples: "Blessed Death," "Carnivore," "Coroner," "Destruction," "Mace," "Malice," "Overkill," "Rotten Corpse," "Sacrifice," Violence etc. (Cf. Dave Hart, "Heavy Metal Madness," Media Update, July/Aug. 1989 p. 5).

    Brown and Hendee noted that "several murd
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    Jun 11, 2012 9:53 PM GMT
    Come on DEKIRUMAN, you and I both know that those rock bands you mentioned are the exceptions in Rock music and not the norm. Not to mention "Rock" is the largest, most diverse genre of all music, so it's really not fair to list Death Metal as being representative of Rock music. Rap however has a MUCH higher percentage of violent lyrics!

    If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, let's at least not be disingenuous.
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    Jun 11, 2012 10:01 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidCome on DEKIRUMAN, you and I both know that those rock bands you mentioned are the exceptions in Rock music and not the norm. Not to mention "Rock" is the largest, most diverse genre of all music, so it's really not fair to list Death Metal as being representative of Rock music. Rap however has a MUCH higher percentage of violent lyrics!

    If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, let's at least not be disingenuous.


    Come on DEKIRUMAN, you and I both know that those rap groups you mentioned are the exceptions in Rock music and not the norm. Not to mention "Hip-hop" is the largest, most diverse genre of all music, so it's really not fair to list Gansta Rap as being representative of Hip-hop. Rock however has a MUCH higher percentage of violent lyrics!
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    Jun 11, 2012 10:05 PM GMT
    DEKIRUMAN said
    Scruffypup saidCome on DEKIRUMAN, you and I both know that those rock bands you mentioned are the exceptions in Rock music and not the norm. Not to mention "Rock" is the largest, most diverse genre of all music, so it's really not fair to list Death Metal as being representative of Rock music. Rap however has a MUCH higher percentage of violent lyrics!

    If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, let's at least not be disingenuous.


    Come on DEKIRUMAN, you and I both know that those rap groups you mentioned are the exceptions in Rock music and not the norm. Not to mention "Hip-hop" is the largest, most diverse genre of all music, so it's really not fair to list Gansta Rap as being representative of Hip-hop. Rock however has a MUCH higher percentage of violent lyrics!



    Cute try but we both know that's a FAIL. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jun 11, 2012 10:19 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said
    DEKIRUMAN said
    Scruffypup saidCome on DEKIRUMAN, you and I both know that those rock bands you mentioned are the exceptions in Rock music and not the norm. Not to mention "Rock" is the largest, most diverse genre of all music, so it's really not fair to list Death Metal as being representative of Rock music. Rap however has a MUCH higher percentage of violent lyrics!

    If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, let's at least not be disingenuous.


    Come on DEKIRUMAN, you and I both know that those rap groups you mentioned are the exceptions in Rock music and not the norm. Not to mention "Hip-hop" is the largest, most diverse genre of all music, so it's really not fair to list Gansta Rap as being representative of Hip-hop. Rock however has a MUCH higher percentage of violent lyrics!



    Cute try but we both know that's a FAIL. icon_rolleyes.gif


    its not though.

    The problem is, I know way more about rock music than you know about rap music, because I appreciate both genres. I understand that the rocks songs that pop up on top 40 are not the representation of the entire genre.

    off of the top of my head, i could give you ten positive rock songs, and ten not so positive ones, I could do the same for rap. It's really hard for me to make my point since most people don't have a very solid understanding of how massive the hip-hop community actually is anyway.
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    Jun 11, 2012 10:27 PM GMT
    "Rap/Hip-Hop may appear to be the most prevalent because of trends among youth and media attention, but it's not, by far.

    The RIAA (The Recording Industry Association of America, the entity that certifies recording sales as gold, platinum and diamond) shows that Rock music is still the # 1 music genre in America. Even if you combine R&B/Urban with Rap/Hip-Hop, Rock music would still be the top genre.

    The top genres by percentage of sales:
    1) Rock 34%
    2) R&B/Urban 11.8%
    3) Country 11.5%
    4) Rap/Hip-Hop 10.8%
    5) Pop 10.7%
    6) Religious 3.9%
    7) Classical 2.3%
    icon_cool.gif Jazz 2.6%"


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    Jun 11, 2012 10:35 PM GMT
    it's not just death metal. Here are some punk examples.

    bloody valentine -Good Charlotte
    Don't Jump -Tokio Hotel
    bodies - Drowning pool

    Anything ever made by the band disturbed.

    These are all VERY popular songs/groups.

    I am not suggesting that rock is more violent, but what I am asking you to consider is that the general public responds better to rock songs with positive lyrics that it does to rap songs with positive lyrics.

    If you always go into a bag looking to find a red marble, people will begin to assume that the bag is full of red marbles.

    ANYONE who listens to hip-hop routinely would be familiar with songs like these.







    There are TONS of rap songs that don't have to do with any of the negative things mentioned, I could list them all day because I actually listen to it. It's nice that you want to comment on the tip of the iceberg, but I would take your argument a lot more seriously if you had the same understanding of rap that its actual listeners do.
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    Jun 11, 2012 10:37 PM GMT
    DEKIRUMAN said[quote][cite]jmusmc85 said[/cite]What do you mean "real" hip hop Deki? Who are you to decide what is real and not real in regards to hip hop music? It seems you are being very disingenuous by thinking that the artists you mention represent hip hop culture. It's obvious that if they were true hip hop artists then their popularity would be off the charts by now.

    You pretty much just proved my point. You equated authenticity to popularity, and it's not the same thing.

    Hip-hop is created and CONSUMED, and consumption is what drives the creation of more music that will sell. And many of the consumers are not part of the culture that spawns the actual "artists"

    All of the artists i mentioned before had a harder time getting signed because they would not promote the things that the industry wanted them to. All the stuff you mentioned about hoes and violence was seen as an asset to record producers because it added a level of shock value that helped the music capture a BROADER AUDIENCE. A lot of the rappers i mentioned don't get a lot of airtime but are BETTER than the ones you hear on the radio......whose fault is that?


    It's the fault of the black community who make up the VAST majority of the artists and listeners. Yes, white people listen to rap, but besides a few anomalies most artists and fans are black. Also, the black community is the only community that fully embraces rap and hip hop as part of their culture and identity.

    Can you name a black singer that is on the music charts today that doesn't sing in the rap or hip hop genre???
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    Jun 11, 2012 10:38 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said"Rap/Hip-Hop may appear to be the most prevalent because of trends among youth and media attention, but it's not, by far.

    The RIAA (The Recording Industry Association of America, the entity that certifies recording sales as gold, platinum and diamond) shows that Rock music is still the # 1 music genre in America. Even if you combine R&B/Urban with Rap/Hip-Hop, Rock music would still be the top genre.

    The top genres by percentage of sales:
    1) Rock 34%
    2) R&B/Urban 11.8%
    3) Country 11.5%
    4) Rap/Hip-Hop 10.8%
    5) Pop 10.7%
    6) Religious 3.9%
    7) Classical 2.3%
    icon_cool.gif Jazz 2.6%"




    That wasn't the important part of my statement and you know it. I was just trying to put an end to the idea that if you were to subtract the influence of the music industry, hip-hop would still be considered much more violent than rock music.