Oldest Cave Paintings May Be Creations of Neandertals, Not Modern Humans

  • metta

    Posts: 39161

    Jun 14, 2012 8:22 PM GMT
    Oldest Cave Paintings May Be Creations of Neandertals, Not Modern Humans

    el-castillo-hands-298x300.jpg

    "uranium-thorium dating have allowed them to circumvent the problems of radiocarbon dating and determine minimum ages for the paintings. This dating method, which is based on the radioactive decay of uranium over time, has been around for decades. But only recently have scientists refined the technique such that they can apply it to samples small enough to get sufficiently precise results."

    "collecting samples of the thin crusts of calcium carbonate that formed atop the images through the same process that forms stalactites and stalagmites. The crusts incorporate small amounts of uranium, which decays into thorium over time. By analyzing the amount of thorium in a sample using a mass spectrometer, the researchers could determine how much time had passed since the crusts formed, thereby providing a minimum age for the images underneath."

    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/06/14/oldest-cave-paintings-may-be-creations-of-neandertals-not-modern-humans/
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    Jun 14, 2012 11:39 PM GMT
    ...umm ok...
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    Jun 14, 2012 11:42 PM GMT
    If you've ever spent much time in Nebraska, Neanderthals may actually be "modern" humans, just with tractors and red t-shirts.
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    Jun 14, 2012 11:44 PM GMT
    smartmoney saidIf you've ever spent much time in Nebraska, Neanderthals may actually be "modern" humans, just with tractors and red t-shirts.
    LMAO.. You're so right! Or you can come to central inland Florida and watch em!
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    Jun 14, 2012 11:53 PM GMT
    It's interesting, but I'd like to see the error bars on those dates...
  • Timbales

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    Jun 15, 2012 12:18 AM GMT
    smartmoney saidIf you've ever spent much time in Nebraska, Neanderthals may actually be "modern" humans, just with tractors and red t-shirts.


    I believe some have made it to Miami, living in that beach in the south....
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    Jun 15, 2012 1:23 AM GMT
    That is interesting. We also know that Neanderthals were very close to Homo Sapiens genetically, as it has been found that there was a small amount of interbreeding between the two species. So I would expect them to exhibit similar behavior.
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    Jun 15, 2012 1:40 AM GMT
    metta8 saidOldest Cave Paintings May Be Creations of Neandertals, Not Modern Humans
    The same could be said of most painting in modern art galleries.
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    Jun 15, 2012 1:41 AM GMT
    Neanderthals were generally more robust than us, and had larger brains.

    Some might conclude that we are the genetic run-off from something that could have been better icon_razz.gif
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    Jun 15, 2012 1:44 AM GMT
    AlphaTrigger saidNeanderthals were generally more robust than us, and had larger brains.

    Some might conclude that we are the genetic run-off from something that could have been better icon_razz.gif
    In other words, we killed off our smarter counterparts.
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    Jun 15, 2012 1:59 AM GMT
    smartmoney saidIf you've ever spent much time in Nebraska, Neanderthals may actually be "modern" humans, just with tractors and red t-shirts.

    scorch! icon_lol.gif
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    Jun 15, 2012 4:38 AM GMT
    smartmoney saidIf you've ever spent much time in Nebraska, Neanderthals may actually be "modern" humans, just with tractors and red t-shirts.
    Um I've been to South Dakota. No thanks.
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    Jun 15, 2012 5:02 AM GMT
    I wonder why people seem to think neanderthals were "stupid" humans... they were not... they had elaborate burying rituals and cooked on fires.... they were probably simply less prone to migration as the modern human... and actually interbred with modern humans rather than were killed off by them completely
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    Jun 15, 2012 2:40 PM GMT
    http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/06/did-neandertals-paint-early-cave.htmlThe results, if correct, include the earliest ever reported date for cave art: A red disk from El Castillo Cave, on the Pas River in northern Spain, clocked in at a minimum of 40,800 years. The disk, part of a larger composition that includes dozens of other disks and some 40 stencils of human hands, could be older, depending on how soon after it was painted the calcite layer formed. Other early dates include 37,300 years for a hand stencil at Tito Bustillo Cave and 35,600 years for a club-shaped image at the famous Altamira Cave, whose artworks were previously thought to be only about 17,000 years old
    .

    As for error bars, if you have a Science mag subscription, you can read all about it. (I used to have one but I let my AAAS membership lapse long ago)
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    Jun 15, 2012 2:45 PM GMT
    Caslon19000 said
    smartmoney saidIf you've ever spent much time in Nebraska, Neanderthals may actually be "modern" humans, just with tractors and red t-shirts.

    scorch! icon_lol.gif


    Yeah, on weekends I'm often found on a tractor in a dirty pair of overalls - don't judge a book by its cover. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jun 15, 2012 3:19 PM GMT
    AlphaTrigger saidNeanderthals were generally more robust than us, and had larger brains.

    Some might conclude that we are the genetic run-off from something that could have been better icon_razz.gif


    There is conjecture on whether H. Sapiens and Neanderthal man are actually different species or subspecies of H. Sapiens - we could in fact be ancestors of H. Sapiens 'neanderthalensis' by way of interbreeding with H. Sapiens 'sapiens'

    Interesting reading at the Neanderthal Genome Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_Genome_Project

    Read somewhere that the size of the brain didn't matter so much as the surface area - the ridging and wrinkling of the H. Sapiens 'sapiens' brain is far more pronounced than that of high order primates, and the arrangement of the lobes slightly different too - so ... they may have had different abilities to H. Sapiens 'sapiens' but it's not necessarily true they were smarter than us.

    It would have been cool to see what they would have achieved given the opportunity to remain on the planet and become the dominant sub-species of H. Sapiens. There was a show called "Cavemen" or something that had cavemen or Neanderthals living amongst us - very funny and quite cool.
  • metta

    Posts: 39161

    Jun 15, 2012 3:32 PM GMT
    The difference between humans and neanders is less than .004% of genome code

    at 5:18m

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syi9bqfFIdY