Fast & Furious - rumors about the real purpose and why Obama and Holder need to hide the truth

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 21, 2012 1:32 PM GMT
    Bottom line:

    Private opinions discussed for months among staffers starting to percolate out, and Obama's involvement gives further credence. Bottom line: F&F was an attempt to circumvent 2nd Amendment gun rights by deliberately creating an international incident that would give Obama cover to issue an executive order to gut or significantly limit the 2nd Amendment.

    Discussion points:

    Occam's razor is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect. Or consider common sense. Why would the US Government be involved with Mexican cartels? Give them enough weapons so they kill each other off? Hardly. Makes no sense. Instead involve the US weapon distribution in the affairs of a foreign country.

    The far left has long railed against the interpretation of the courts that the Amendment applies to individual rights, not just military. Their long-term goal of picking Supreme Court Justices is still a goal, but the timing and outcome are uncertain.

    Gun control legislation has not proven popular because moderate Democrats and independents oppose it.

    Using an executive order to circumvent the legislative branch is a demonstrated Obama option, e.g. "we can't wait".

    Using an executive order to circumvent the judicial branch is not far fetched, especially after Obama tried to bully the Supreme Court regarding Obamacare.

    Congressmen know exactly what they are looking for. The documents will prove both Obama's role as well as perjury by Holder.

    Executive Privilege was a last ditch effort to hide the documents. Was not desired because it clearly involved Obama.

    Courses of action and political impact:

    Legal process takes time, but eventually probably during the next Administration, Holder will ultimately be indicted, and could serve a year in jail.

    Republicans will make a clear case based on circumstantial evidence of the goal and participants of F&F.

    The Democrats will be hard pressed to make a credible denial when they are withholding evidence.

    Obama will be further damaged politically by those who favor 2nd Amendment rights and those deeply offended by such tactics by the Executive Branch. Obama will take a major hit among moderates and the impact in swing states will be significant.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 21, 2012 1:49 PM GMT
    I'm an extremely vocal supporter of the 2nd Amendment right and everything you just said sounds like bullshit.

    Why am I not surprised?
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    Jun 21, 2012 5:39 PM GMT

    "The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails. The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears." - President Barack H. Obama


    Another crucial distinction: The Bush-era gun tracing program known as "Wide Receiver" was executed in concert with the Mexican government, which was fully involved at every step of the process. "Fast & Furious" was conceived and launched without the knowledge of the Mexican government -- and its citizens have paid a very dear price as a result. Even Holder himself has acknowledged that Fast & Furious was entirely an Obama-era endeavor:

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 21, 2012 5:41 PM GMT
    There is no Obama conspiracy theory that Socal will not embrace.

    Pathetic. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19133

    Jun 21, 2012 6:05 PM GMT
    Jockbod48 said
    "The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails. The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears." - President Barack H. Obama


    Another crucial distinction: The Bush-era gun tracing program known as "Wide Receiver" was executed in concert with the Mexican government, which was fully involved at every step of the process. "Fast & Furious" was conceived and launched without the knowledge of the Mexican government -- and its citizens have paid a very dear price as a result. Even Holder himself has acknowledged that Fast & Furious was entirely an Obama-era endeavor:



    +10
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Jun 21, 2012 6:31 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidBottom line:

    Private opinions discussed for months among staffers starting to percolate out, and Obama's involvement gives further credence. Bottom line: F&F was an attempt to circumvent 2nd Amendment gun rights by deliberately creating an international incident that would give Obama cover to issue an executive order to gut or significantly limit the 2nd Amendment

    .


    Bottom Line ... ARE YOU F**KIN NUTS????

    Do you actually read what you post?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 21, 2012 7:07 PM GMT
    The Telegraph has an informative piece on the Fast and Furious scandal. The slant is anti-administration, but the background info is accurate.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100166854/the-fast-and-furious-scandal-is-turning-into-president-obamas-watergate/

    Fast and furious hasn’t been discussed a lot in the mainstream media, which is why the facts can seem so preposterous when you read them for the first time. But the story is slowly unraveling and the public is catching up with the madness. On Wednesday, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt over his decision to withhold documents related to the “gun walking” operation – documents that President Obama tried to keep secret by invoking executive privilege. The question of why the Prez intervened in this way will surely hang over the investigation and the White House for many months to come. Be patient, conservatives. It took nearly eight months for the Watergate break in to become a national news story. But when it finally did, it toppled a President.

    Here’s what Fast and Furious is all about – and for the uninitiated, be prepared for a shock. In 2009, the US government instructed Arizona gun sellers illegally to sell arms to suspected criminals. Agents working for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) were then ordered not to stop the sales but to allow the arms to “walk” across the border into the arms of Mexican drug-traffickers. According to the Oversight Committee’s report, “The purpose was to wait and watch, in hope that law enforcement could identify other members of a trafficking network and build a large, complex conspiracy case…. [The ATF] initially began using the new gun-walking tactics in one of its investigations to further the Department’s strategy. The case was soon renamed ‘Operation Fast and Furious.”

    Tracing the arms became difficult, until they starting appearing at bloody crime scenes. Many Mexicans have died from being shot by ATF sanctioned guns, but the scandal only became public after a US federal agent, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by one of them in a fire fight. ATF whistle blowers started to come forward and the Department of Justice was implicated. It’s estimated that the US government effectively supplied 1,608 weapons to criminals, at a total value of over $1 million. Aside from putting American citizens in danger, the AFT also supplied what now amounts to a civil war within Mexico.

    It’s important to note that the Bush administration oversaw something similar to Fast and Furious. Called Operation Wide Receiver, it used the common tactic of “controlled delivery,” whereby agents would allow an illegal transaction to take place, closely follow the movements of the arms, and then descend on the culprits. But Fast and Furious is different because it was “uncontrolled delivery,” whereby the criminals were essentially allowed to drop off the map. Perhaps more importantly, Wide Receiver was conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican government. Fast and Furious was not.

    So Obama’s operation is subtly different. But just as concerning is the heavy-handed way that the administration has handled criticism. Obama says that the Oversight Committee has been hijacked by Republicans who would rather talk about politics than creating jobs (because Obama is oh so very good at generating those). But there has been Democratic criticism too, and the Prez’s determined defence of Holder will only encourage conspiracy thinking that the scandal has hidden depths. Executive privilege is usually associated with protecting information that passes through the Oval Office. What did the documents reveal about Obama’s association with the operation?


    See link above for more...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 21, 2012 8:54 PM GMT
    Isn't it interesting that SoCal, chief of the Conservaposse, always goes quiet when confronted with real facts, like on his topic about Obama's Aide Donilon leaking information.

    Guys give him hell with facts and he'll soon STFU, just like he did on the above subject, but expect him to pop up again with more attempts at making Obama our as bad as or worse than his cherished Bush/Cheney. He just cannot get it through his head that Bush/Cheney hold the lead in dispicable Government official actions and Obama just doesn't 'hold a candle' to them.
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    Jun 21, 2012 8:57 PM GMT
    Jockbod48 said
    "The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails. The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears." - President Barack H. Obama


    Another crucial distinction: The Bush-era gun tracing program known as "Wide Receiver" was executed in concert with the Mexican government, which was fully involved at every step of the process. "Fast & Furious" was conceived and launched without the knowledge of the Mexican government -- and its citizens have paid a very dear price as a result. Even Holder himself has acknowledged that Fast & Furious was entirely an Obama-era endeavor:


    Agreed. I think the Republicans are not going after this with all barrels at the moment to allow discussions with both sides of the aisle prior to the vote. In other words, keep the discussion more narrowly focused at this point. After the contempt citation from the House, more allegations or suppositions will be forthcoming, in my view.
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    Jun 21, 2012 9:12 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    Jockbod48 said
    "The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails. The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears." - President Barack H. Obama


    Another crucial distinction: The Bush-era gun tracing program known as "Wide Receiver" was executed in concert with the Mexican government, which was fully involved at every step of the process. "Fast & Furious" was conceived and launched without the knowledge of the Mexican government -- and its citizens have paid a very dear price as a result. Even Holder himself has acknowledged that Fast & Furious was entirely an Obama-era endeavor:


    Agreed. I think the Republicans are not going after this with all barrels at the moment to allow discussions with both sides of the aisle prior to the vote. In other words, keep the discussion more narrowly focused at this point. After the contempt citation from the House, more allegations or suppositions will be forthcoming, in my view.




    I think your trying really hard with your propaganda to make a really big deal out of very little, especially in light of what has gone on and pushed under the table by the Bush/Cheney era, remember they leaked information in the Plame case to cover up their lies that they needed to be believed to forward a very tragic and failed war.

    How the hell does this miniscule stuff your trotting out about Obama even come close tho what you republicans covered over and ignored from your cherished leaders named above ?

    All this is, is the Republicans trying to discredit Obama from any angle they can find to "make him a one term president", nearly as pathetic as gingrich's efforts at making a big deal about Clinton spilling cum on Lewinski's clothes, all the while he was doing worse.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 21, 2012 9:15 PM GMT
    This F&F thing is among the most avatarded things I have ever heard. Just goes to show how a partisan media echo chamber can get worked up over the most ridiculous conspiracy theories. It's sad that the repubs in Congress have bought into it, even if they don't really believe it (after all, how could they?).
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Jun 21, 2012 10:58 PM GMT
    showme saidThis F&F thing is among the most avatarded things I have ever heard. Just goes to show how a partisan media echo chamber can get worked up over the most ridiculous conspiracy theories. It's sad that the repubs in Congress have bought into it, even if they don't really believe it (after all, how could they?).


    A border agent died. Countless Mexican's died

    There was no State Dept waiver of the plan.

    The Att Gen retracted statements to Congress.


    Is there just a cut and paste response from some one here who just do not want to hear anything negative about the current president?

    Unless you know some of the facts of the case and desire to discuss them, reiterated what others have said does not lend to the discussion.

  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Jun 21, 2012 10:59 PM GMT
    Tell Boehner: "Cut the 'Contempt' Nonsense and Do Your Job"

    Instead of doing their jobs, John Boehner and the House Republicans are once again wasting time on partisan nonsense.

    They are actually threatening Attorney General Eric Holder with a "contempt of Congress" citation, claiming Holder has not been forthcoming with documents and testimony in an investigation of "Fast and Furious," a program that allowed smuggled guns to be transferred to known criminals.

    It's a program that should be investigated, but there's just one problem with GOP claims that Holder is not helping – it's utter hooey.

    Holder has already testified nine times before Congress
    Holder's Justice Department has already turned over thousands of documents
    Holder continues to offer to help, in spite of openly hostile treatment by Republican members
    The Republicans aren't carrying out a real investigation, they're just waging a partisan witch hunt. The best evidence? The practices being investigated didn't even start during the Obama administration – they started in 2006, under George W Bush.

    Enough is enough. Tell Boehner: "Cut the 'Contempt' Nonsense and Do Your Job"


    Sign the Petition

    http://leftaction.com/action/tell-boehner-cut-contempt-nonsense-and-do-your-job
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Jun 21, 2012 11:04 PM GMT
    GQjock saidTell Boehner: "Cut the 'Contempt' Nonsense and Do Your Job"

    Instead of doing their jobs, John Boehner and the House Republicans are once again wasting time on partisan nonsense.

    They are actually threatening Attorney General Eric Holder with a "contempt of Congress" citation, claiming Holder has not been forthcoming with documents and testimony in an investigation of "Fast and Furious," a program that allowed smuggled guns to be transferred to known criminals.

    It's a program that should be investigated, but there's just one problem with GOP claims that Holder is not helping – it's utter hooey.

    Holder has already testified nine times before Congress
    Holder's Justice Department has already turned over thousands of documents
    Holder continues to offer to help, in spite of openly hostile treatment by Republican members
    The Republicans aren't carrying out a real investigation, they're just waging a partisan witch hunt. The best evidence? The practices being investigated didn't even start during the Obama administration – they started in 2006, under George W Bush.

    Enough is enough. Tell Boehner: "Cut the 'Contempt' Nonsense and Do Your Job"


    Sign the Petition

    http://leftaction.com/action/tell-boehner-cut-contempt-nonsense-and-do-your-job


    The practice under bush was a different program.

    Holder retracted statements and in an 11th hour asked for Exec privilege.

    The Holder Justice Department never got a required waiver from the State Dept on the plan, in violation of Federal law.

    i am sure alot will sign the petition but no one seems to want to talk about the substance of what is going on.
    All i hear are partisan cheerleaders on left cast doubt on this scandal.

    Pelosi today in her news conference did not even answer the question why this was different than the case of when they subpeoned Harriet Miers of Bush administration and threatened contempt and the case went to court.

  • conservativej...

    Posts: 2465

    Jun 21, 2012 11:18 PM GMT
    Just a brief comment. Such an incident would have removed any headwind to anti-gin legislation and in fact have given Obama/Holder a tailwind.

    Good post.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Jun 21, 2012 11:30 PM GMT
    The Holder Justice Department never got a required waiver from the State Dept on the plan, in violation of Federal law.

    Dude dude dude ... if that WAS the case then the Contempt citation would BE A BOUT THAT and not about getting MORE documents that they can sniff through in an attempt to find something that they didn't find before

    Get your facts str8 at least and have them make SOME SENSE
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    Jun 21, 2012 11:37 PM GMT
    "F&F, Rumors about the real purpose" Oh, rumors...love that title. Anything that starts with rumors has got to be true.
    Kind of like rumors of weapons of mass distruction in Iraq or that elusive Osama Bin Laden hiding in Brooklyn. Yeah, rumors are always funny.
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    Jun 21, 2012 11:40 PM GMT
    smartmoney said"F&F, Rumors about the real purpose" Oh, rumors...love that title. Anything that starts with rumors has got to be true.
    Kind of like rumors of weapons of mass distruction in Iraq or that elusive Osama Bin Laden hiding in Brooklyn. Yeah, rumors are always funny.


    yep, damn those 'rumour' (for MiL) starters






  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Jun 21, 2012 11:43 PM GMT
    GQjock saidThe Holder Justice Department never got a required waiver from the State Dept on the plan, in violation of Federal law.

    Dude dude dude ... if that WAS the case then the Contempt citation would BE A BOUT THAT and not about getting MORE documents that they can sniff through in an attempt to find something that they didn't find before

    Get your facts str8 at least and have them make SOME SENSE


    Ok you discuss the required waiver, and that is 1 of a dozen reason why this has to be investigated.

    The contempt citation has to do with the back and forth and Holder finally say I am not going to release the documents.

    First it was delays, I am sorry I didnt remember receiving emails. retractions now an Exec privledge claim WITHOUT any specifics.

    The specifics are required by precedent in other cases.

    So to say nothing is unusual about the scandal is just false.

    But I do appreciate you for engaging at least some of the facts. The Left just seem to want to say "PARTISAN WITCH HUNT" without a shred of discussion of the facts.
  • jock_1

    Posts: 1491

    Jun 21, 2012 11:48 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    smartmoney said"F&F, Rumors about the real purpose" Oh, rumors...love that title. Anything that starts with rumors has got to be true.
    Kind of like rumors of weapons of mass distruction in Iraq or that elusive Osama Bin Laden hiding in Brooklyn. Yeah, rumors are always funny.


    yep, damn those 'rumour' (for MiL) starters








    thanks for these old videos. It just shows how 2-faced the democrats and liberals really are
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 21, 2012 11:52 PM GMT
    jock_1 said
    freedomisntfree said
    smartmoney said"F&F, Rumors about the real purpose" Oh, rumors...love that title. Anything that starts with rumors has got to be true.
    Kind of like rumors of weapons of mass distruction in Iraq or that elusive Osama Bin Laden hiding in Brooklyn. Yeah, rumors are always funny.


    yep, damn those 'rumour' (for MiL) starters








    thanks for these old videos. It just shows how 2-faced the democrats and liberals really are


    In spite of posting these probably hundreds of times.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 21, 2012 11:57 PM GMT
    smartmoney said"F&F, Rumors about the real purpose" Oh, rumors...love that title. Anything that starts with rumors has got to be true.
    Kind of like rumors of weapons of mass distruction in Iraq or that elusive Osama Bin Laden hiding in Brooklyn. Yeah, rumors are always funny.

    If sources aren't ready or willing to go public, or if the info isn't fully corroborated, isn't it better to state up front it is a rumor so you can draw your own conclusion?

    I think you just like to argue.
  • conservativej...

    Posts: 2465

    Jun 22, 2012 12:10 AM GMT
    socalfitness said
    Jockbod48 said
    "The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails. The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears." - President Barack H. Obama


    Another crucial distinction: The Bush-era gun tracing program known as "Wide Receiver" was executed in concert with the Mexican government, which was fully involved at every step of the process. "Fast & Furious" was conceived and launched without the knowledge of the Mexican government -- and its citizens have paid a very dear price as a result. Even Holder himself has acknowledged that Fast & Furious was entirely an Obama-era endeavor:


    Agreed. I think the Republicans are not going after this with all barrels at the moment to allow discussions with both sides of the aisle prior to the vote. In other words, keep the discussion more narrowly focused at this point. After the contempt citation from the House, more allegations or suppositions will be forthcoming, in my view.


    So, if a sufficient number of Democrats torpedo the President this close to the election, who do you think they would prefer to replace Obama on the November ballot? If that is even possible.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 22, 2012 12:13 AM GMT
    conservativejock said
    socalfitness said
    Jockbod48 said
    "The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails. The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears." - President Barack H. Obama


    Another crucial distinction: The Bush-era gun tracing program known as "Wide Receiver" was executed in concert with the Mexican government, which was fully involved at every step of the process. "Fast & Furious" was conceived and launched without the knowledge of the Mexican government -- and its citizens have paid a very dear price as a result. Even Holder himself has acknowledged that Fast & Furious was entirely an Obama-era endeavor:


    Agreed. I think the Republicans are not going after this with all barrels at the moment to allow discussions with both sides of the aisle prior to the vote. In other words, keep the discussion more narrowly focused at this point. After the contempt citation from the House, more allegations or suppositions will be forthcoming, in my view.


    So, if a sufficient number of Democrats torpedo the President this close to the election, who do you think they would prefer to replace Obama on the November ballot? If that is even possible.

    I bet most Democrats would strongly prefer Hillary, and not as VP but Pres. She would "reluctantly" accept and Bill's grin would be immense. But not going to happen.
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    Jun 22, 2012 1:12 AM GMT
    http://nation.foxnews.com/guns/2011/05/25/obama-were-working-gun-control-under-radar

    Obama: We're Working on Gun Control 'Under the Radar'
    May 25, 2011

    On March 30, the 30th anniversary of the assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, Jim Brady, who sustained a debilitating head wound in the attack, and his wife, Sarah, came to Capitol Hill to push for a ban on the controversial "large magazines." Brady, for whom the law requiring background checks on handgun purchasers is named, then met with White House press secretary Jay Carney. During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, "to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda," she said.

    "I just want you to know that we are working on it," Brady recalled the president telling them. "We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar."


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