Training to failure or not?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 31, 2008 4:54 AM GMT
    I was reading that the new information states training to failure actually causes less muscle growth? So do you train till failure or not?
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    Jul 31, 2008 6:38 AM GMT
    ?

    You'll need to supply the reference if you actually want a substantive discussion.

    Is it from "Men's Fitness?"
    "New England Journal of Medicine?"
    "Geriatric Care Quarterly?"
    "New Age Spiritual Healing Monthly?"
    "ImAnIdiot.blogspot.com?"
  • ROYCE13

    Posts: 315

    Jul 31, 2008 6:53 AM GMT
    training till failure does work, but you have to fit it into a work out routine with a goal, you just do not train till failure any old day on any old exercise. It serves its purpose in the proper context. I have done it a few times, hate it, but it works, but
    I planned the routine for a short period to include this.

    so much is written in magazines that contradict their own articles because they have to have something each month to print, so read things and then investigate.

    I go to a guy with these articles and he usually laughs at me, because he said he has been training 15 years, he is in perfect condition, no suppl or enhancers, and he said the same info gets circulated over and over again.

    I also take exercises to him and say why do we not do this or that, and he says because we are more advanced than that in our wo and strenght, so he taught me how to look at the articles and work out plans and usually ignore most of it.

    not all is hype, but if you really read the articles you start to see that they do contradict.
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    Jul 31, 2008 1:59 PM GMT
    In my personal opinion this is a technique in the tool box along with many others like drop sets, forced reps, etc. There are times and places where training to failure is very useful. There are times when it is not. Also, training to failure is easier and safer to do with some muscle groups and some specific exercises. There are also some exercises that are really to dangerous to train to failure with unless you have a very good spotter and extensive experience knowing your own body and it's limits.

    The one big thing I would say about training to failure is that if you are going to do this, you absolutely must have your nutrition, rest and recovery periods dialed in nearly perfectly. Training to failure while on severe caloric restriction or while you are over-training is a recipe for disaster. All that being said, training to failure can definitely be a useful tool when used at the right time for the right job.

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    Jul 31, 2008 4:04 PM GMT
    Training to failure can fry your central nervous system (CNS), which recruits muscle fibers, handles motor control, and coordinates muscular involvement during exercise. The CNS is not a muscle, and destroying it often does not make it stronger. Instead, you can do real damage. And CNS recovery after burnout takes a lot more than the 48-72 hours you're probably allocating for your muscle groups.

    On the other hand, always training at a submaximal level isn't going to lead to sustained significant muscle growth.

    So when is it okay? Here are a few factors to consider:

    • "Failure" means just that. It isn't "gosh I really don't feel like doing another rep" or "sheesh I'm tired", but it also isn't continuing past the point when you can (mustering all your effort) maintain form.
    • Volume. The more reps and sets you are doing, and the longer your workout, the more careful you have to be about training to failure. If you just can't help yourself from always going to failure, move to a low volume workout regime.
    • Speed. The more explosive the movement, the more taxing on the CNS.
    • Amount of Muscle. The more muscle fibers recruited (and, more to the point, the more muscles put into play) in an exercise, the more taxing on the CNS.

    So putting it all together and knowing my own body after lots of experience, I train to failure sometimes on some exercies, and almost never on others.

    • Almost never: Olympic lifts, big compound exercises, almost anything supersetted with plyometrics.
    • Sometimes (okay, probably most of the time on at least one set):single-muscle isolation exercises, like curls, kickbacks, and calf raises.
    • As part of an occasional program, but definitely not every week all year long: everything else.
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    Jul 31, 2008 4:22 PM GMT
    Oh jeez. Didn't know that. icon_eek.gif

    Thanks for the info BoarderX. It does kinda makes sense though, since the brain is literally forcing the muscles to comply despite the conflicting signals of pain and tiredness coming from the nerve endings.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 02, 2008 8:12 PM GMT
    BoarderX saidTraining to failure can fry your central nervous system (CNS), which recruits muscle fibers, handles motor control, and coordinates muscular involvement during exercise. The CNS is not a muscle, and destroying it often does not make it stronger. Instead, you can do real damage. And CNS recovery after burnout takes a lot more than the 48-72 hours you're probably allocating for your muscle groups.

    On the other hand, always training at a submaximal level isn't going to lead to sustained significant muscle growth.

    So when is it okay? Here are a few factors to consider:

    • "Failure" means just that. It isn't "gosh I really don't feel like doing another rep" or "sheesh I'm tired", but it also isn't continuing past the point when you can (mustering all your effort) maintain form.
    • Volume. The more reps and sets you are doing, and the longer your workout, the more careful you have to be about training to failure. If you just can't help yourself from always going to failure, move to a low volume workout regime.
    • Speed. The more explosive the movement, the more taxing on the CNS.
    • Amount of Muscle. The more muscle fibers recruited (and, more to the point, the more muscles put into play) in an exercise, the more taxing on the CNS.

    So putting it all together and knowing my own body after lots of experience, I train to failure sometimes on some exercies, and almost never on others.

    • Almost never: Olympic lifts, big compound exercises, almost anything supersetted with plyometrics.
    • Sometimes (okay, probably most of the time on at least one set):single-muscle isolation exercises, like curls, kickbacks, and calf raises.
    • As part of an occasional program, but definitely not every week all year long: everything else.


    This is exactly what I read , its not so much the muscle but about the Central Nervous System that takes a beating. Thanks so much that makes sense.
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    Aug 04, 2008 11:01 PM GMT
    Ive trained to failure using the HIT based method for the past 5 years now and its not been a problem.

    I train on average 3 or 4 days a week, most people blow the whole training to failure way out of proportion as if you use a HIT based approach your gym sessions normaly last a quarter of the time of other approaches and you train less frequently.

    Formulate yuor own opinions but serious muscle mags hate the approach as it blasts holes in half the bullshit. But its a tool just like anyother and boredom demands a change everynow and again. Probably one of the best sites on this approach is Dr Darden's
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    Aug 05, 2008 8:20 PM GMT
    Would you mind posting a link ? thanks icon_smile.gif
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    Aug 05, 2008 11:07 PM GMT
    http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=383704
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    Aug 06, 2008 7:50 AM GMT
    thanks bud appreciate it icon_smile.gif
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    Aug 06, 2008 7:50 AM GMT
    thanks bud appreciate it icon_smile.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 06, 2008 10:38 AM GMT
    I am old school, so take it for what it is worth-

    I train to failure on every lift, ever muscle, everytime.

    I have read all the studies, done some very intensive research myself, ect.

    A muscle does not grow if it can do what you ask of it. It basically says, yeah, I have done this before, I can do it again. No problem. The only time a muscle grows is when you ask it to do something it has never done. But....and it is a big but....

    There are two types of muscle: fast twitch and slow twitch. Think of sprinters and marathon runners. Sprinters have fast twitch: Muscle fiber that is built to blast for a very short period. 100 yards. Marathoners have slow twitch: Built to fire off slowly for 26 miles.

    For every muscle group you have have both. More of one and less of the other.

    Does that mean you are stuck? No, muscle also changes. Lift heavy, and muscle will change to slow twitch, heavy lifting muscle.
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    Aug 06, 2008 11:02 AM GMT
    The biggest mistake I see is guys doing different exercisises that are the same, really. They do straight bar curls, then dumbells curls, then maybe cable curls. Three "different" exercises that all do the same thing. The bicep does one thing; it pulls the forearm towards the shoulder. Nothing more. The bicep is attached in one spot, the forearm. It is attached in one spot on the upper arm. So why do a million bicep exercises? Do one really well. The arm, not the bicep, is made up of many muscles. Brachias, brachialradialis, ect. They all attach differently. The brachia work better when the hand is pointed down. Reverse curls work those. Want an all around huge arm, do as many reverse curls as normal curls. It will not only build up your bicep but the muscles underneath. Then do hammer curls, thumbs up. Beside that, your triceps should be much bigger than your biceps. BI=two, tri=three. Work the triceps. Dips, dips, dips....for anyone that wants to build triceps which really are the bulk of a good arm.