Eating Paleo for Endurance Athletes

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 23, 2012 2:35 PM GMT
    Have been trying to eat Paleo for the last 2 weeks, with mostly positive but mixed results and was wondering about any of your efforts with this diet.

    My main reasons for trying were more energy and faster recovery for training.
    So far so good. I feel much better, cleaner, and my recovery after long rides seems to be getting better.... ie after a 5.5 hr ride thurs, I was able to ride 2 hrs and hit the gym on friday. I have also noticeably cut down, but i dont want to loose any weight.

    The only downsides are:

    1. My cravings for some sort of "indulgence" that reminds me of carbs. I really miss cereal and milk! (peanut butter capt'n crunch!)
    2. Eating fresh food and preparing it all myself is a bit time consuming and expensive.
    3. And the most embarrassing, is the nasty gas from egg-white protein.
    4. Other than a 4:1 carb protein drink mix I made with HEED drink mix and Protein powder, what is a good training "food/drink" for the long haul training days.


    So, help me out here; what are some good inexpensive tricks you have used to create some time saving, cheap and delicious foods while on this diet... both during training and all day....
    And other than ginger caps, any suggestions for a fix for problem #3.

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    Jun 23, 2012 5:40 PM GMT
    The whole paleo thing is just another trendy diet, just like low carb was in the early 2000's. Just eat a balanced diet, avoid processed foods, and try to get organic when you can. Sure, some people are allergic to gluten or cannot digest lactose, in which case they should not eat foods containing those. But there is nothing intrinsically unhealthy about eating foods that are agricultural products. The idea of paleo is that agriculture is bad and has led to unhealthy people. Well I would argue that human life expectancy is much higher now than it was in hunter-gatherer times. And if you are going to avoid agriculture completely you will have to hunt and fish to get your own meat. You won't be able to find anything in a store. So actually the paleo diet contradicts itself. Really, a healthy diet is not that difficult. There are some meal plans on this site that are very sensible.
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    Jun 23, 2012 6:19 PM GMT
    Jaybird1 saidThe whole paleo thing is just another trendy diet, just like low carb was in the early 2000's. Just eat a balanced diet, avoid processed foods, and try to get organic when you can. Sure, some people are allergic to gluten or cannot digest lactose, in which case they should not eat foods containing those. But there is nothing intrinsically unhealthy about eating foods that are agricultural products. The idea of paleo is that agriculture is bad and has led to unhealthy people. Well I would argue that human life expectancy is much higher now than it was in hunter-gatherer times. And if you are going to avoid agriculture completely you will have to hunt and fish to get your own meat. You won't be able to find anything in a store. So actually the paleo diet contradicts itself. Really, a healthy diet is not that difficult. There are some meal plans on this site that are very sensible.


    I agree. There are health benefits from consuming whole grains (brown rice, quinoa, whole oats without the sugar (old fasioned kind), whole wheat bread, barley, buckwheat, etc. Like 1/150 will be bonified celiac/gluten intolerant. That is a trend also. If you think you're celiac or gluten intolerant, go get the blood test. If you are negative, then you're psychologically gluten intolerant, which means you're crazy and weird.

    There are also health benefits from consuming beans. Beans have at least 3x the soluble fiber as oats, yet oats get all the hype. Soluble fiber removes cholesterol from your system. How cool is that? They also are a great source of low glycemic index complex carbohydrates, which are great for endurance athletes. Same with whole grains.
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    Jun 23, 2012 8:04 PM GMT
    Nope human body does not process wheat and processed sugar like they do with meat and vegetables. I have felt the benefit of having no carbs- more enerygy, less cramps, flatter tummy. The craving are still there after three weeks but way way way less. Plus there are a lot of alternatives that you can substitute for your wheat.


    OP, go to youtube and search Paleo snackbars. its basically a protein bar full of nuts, cocunut oil and other good stuff without the sugar and carbs.

    Beans, legumes and grains are not good for you no matter what the government tell you. Its basically a diet of mass production not suitable for our digestice system.

    Also, if you need fiber in your diet look for root vegetables and avocado. All natural source of fiber.
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    Jun 23, 2012 8:21 PM GMT
    I´m basically on paleo, very strict on grains, legumes, dairy, but bad on sugar. I loath it, but the simple fact is that if I eat wheat, corn, tapioca, and all other grains apart from white rice, even unknowingly, I get very sick.

    There is nothing "contradictory" about paleo. It makes total sense in evolutionary terms... our species did NOT evolve eating grains. Simply didn´t. Period. That means there is a fair likelyhood that we might have problems with eating them. And the science seems to point that we DO have problems (as does my experience).

    (1) first month is detox. You lose the craving for bread and if it makes you ill you start to lose any desire to eat it.

    (2) yeah, it´s very expensive and annoying.

    (3) don´t eat it. simples

    (4) Once your system converts back to the way it evolved you don´t need meals every few hours. If you eat a good amount of protein and fat you may not want to eat for a LONG time... I´m trying to square this with sports nutrition, but you can hardly imagine humanoids 20,000 years ago stopping their migration for a protein shake... Paleo tends to create a less BIG physique, but that´s not natural anyway...


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    Jun 23, 2012 8:26 PM GMT
    I´m basically on paleo, very strict on grains, legumes, dairy, but bad on sugar. I loath it, but the simple fact is that if I eat wheat, corn, tapioca, and all other grains apart from white rice, even unknowingly, I get very sick.

    There is nothing "contradictory" about paleo. It makes total sense in evolutionary terms... our species did NOT evolve eating grains. Simply didn´t. Period. That means there is a fair likelyhood that we might have problems with eating them. And the science seems to point that we DO have problems (as does my experience). I don´t have enough knowledge to make an informed judgement on the science, but whenever I ignore it I get ill.

    (1) first month is detox. You lose the craving for bread and if it makes you ill you start to lose any desire to eat it.

    (2) yeah, it´s very expensive and annoying.

    (3) don´t eat it. simples

    (4) Once your system converts back to the way it evolved you don´t need meals every few hours. If you eat a good amount of protein and fat you may not want to eat for a LONG time... I´m trying to square this with sports nutrition, but you can hardly imagine humanoids 20,000 years ago stopping their migration for a protein shake... Paleo tends to create a less BIG physique, but that´s not natural anyway...
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    Jun 23, 2012 8:42 PM GMT
    people talk BS about paleo the whole time, showing they never understood it....


    annoys me. Critiques of a caricature are never persuasive.
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    Jun 23, 2012 9:09 PM GMT
    Hey man I cook a lot of my own meals and here are some tips to save time on cooking:

    1) Know the recipe, I mean, understand what you're doing, what goes with what, and how things play out... If you know the recipe well you can execute it quickly

    2) Watch how you use your space. If you're making a mess everywhere you're wasting time. Spend the extra mental effort to maintain an efficient space

    Also buy more cookbooks and maintain assortments of spices and herbs.

    Get into a routine and it just becomes faster and easier every day (like working out).
  • acdarkly

    Posts: 48

    Jun 24, 2012 11:49 AM GMT
    I wondered the same thing, i saw this article a while back

    http://running.competitor.com/2012/05/nutrition/is-the-paleo-diet-the-right-choice-for-runners_52363

    It suggests that you stage your diet when you do intense endurance. Include the food you know your body needs then return to paleo after.
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    Jun 24, 2012 5:19 PM GMT
    Remind me not to even bother offering free advice from a person who will be a professional doing this for a living within the next year. So much bullshit pseudoscience and trendy fad diets on here.

    Maybe if you go study nutrition for 9 years of your life in a university setting...

    Instead we have conspiracy theorists.
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    Jun 24, 2012 5:23 PM GMT
    My brother is on it. He has lost 40lbs so far and he loves it. In fact, our entire family is considering going on it since it would make meal times a lot easier. Based on what he has told me, it works really well and its a bit of work, but after a few weeks, you don't crave any sort of carbohydrate at all. And besides, who wouldn't want steaks every day? ;)
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    Jun 25, 2012 5:21 PM GMT
    venture saidMy brother is on it. He has lost 40lbs so far and he loves it. In fact, our entire family is considering going on it since it would make meal times a lot easier. Based on what he has told me, it works really well and its a bit of work, but after a few weeks, you don't crave any sort of carbohydrate at all. And besides, who wouldn't want steaks every day? ;)


    I can think of a slew of reasons why you wouldn't want to eat steaks every day, from environmental to physiological. I can also wonder what sort of workouts you are getting with a low carb diet.

    But no one cares because it's all about the paleo craze now. Fuck science and real nutrition.
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    Jun 25, 2012 5:26 PM GMT
    revolutionsperminute said
    bluey2223 said
    Jaybird1 saidThe whole paleo thing is just another trendy diet, just like low carb was in the early 2000's. Just eat a balanced diet, avoid processed foods, and try to get organic when you can. Sure, some people are allergic to gluten or cannot digest lactose, in which case they should not eat foods containing those. But there is nothing intrinsically unhealthy about eating foods that are agricultural products. The idea of paleo is that agriculture is bad and has led to unhealthy people. Well I would argue that human life expectancy is much higher now than it was in hunter-gatherer times. And if you are going to avoid agriculture completely you will have to hunt and fish to get your own meat. You won't be able to find anything in a store. So actually the paleo diet contradicts itself. Really, a healthy diet is not that difficult. There are some meal plans on this site that are very sensible.


    I agree. There are health benefits from consuming whole grains (brown rice, quinoa, whole oats without the sugar (old fasioned kind), whole wheat bread, barley, buckwheat, etc. Like 1/150 will be bonified celiac/gluten intolerant. That is a trend also. If you think you're celiac or gluten intolerant, go get the blood test. If you are negative, then you're psychologically gluten intolerant, which means you're crazy and weird.

    There are also health benefits from consuming beans. Beans have at least 3x the soluble fiber as oats, yet oats get all the hype. Soluble fiber removes cholesterol from your system. How cool is that? They also are a great source of low glycemic index complex carbohydrates, which are great for endurance athletes. Same with whole grains.



    This is crazy talk.

    First of all, to say that "the idea of paleo is that agriculture is bad and has led to unhealthy people" is bogus. Did you read this somewhere? Because it is a gross caricature. Paleo diets do not oppose agriculture. They mainly raise awareness of the effects of gluten, lectins and phytates on the human digestive system. You know, vegetables are also considered an aspect of agriculture.

    Also, quinoa is not a grain. It comes from a dicot plant, whereas grains come from monocot plants.

    All the more reasons to love quinoa!




    Quinoa is considered a whole grain for diet planning purposes. If you want to have an argument on its agricultural and botanical properties, then yes, it is technically a seed, which is why it is the only "grain" (pseudograin) that actually has sufficient lysine to be considered a complete protein on its own.

    Just like tomatoes and avocados are for diet planning purposes a vegetable when they are technically a fruit due to seeds or pit.

    Now seriously, come again bitch. You wanna argue with me on nutrition? I got 9 years of education on you.
  • gwuinsf

    Posts: 525

    Jun 25, 2012 6:32 PM GMT
    Jaybird1 saidThe whole paleo thing is just another trendy diet, just like low carb was in the early 2000's. Just eat a balanced diet, avoid processed foods, and try to get organic when you can. Sure, some people are allergic to gluten or cannot digest lactose, in which case they should not eat foods containing those. But there is nothing intrinsically unhealthy about eating foods that are agricultural products. The idea of paleo is that agriculture is bad and has led to unhealthy people. Well I would argue that human life expectancy is much higher now than it was in hunter-gatherer times. And if you are going to avoid agriculture completely you will have to hunt and fish to get your own meat. You won't be able to find anything in a store. So actually the paleo diet contradicts itself. Really, a healthy diet is not that difficult. There are some meal plans on this site that are very sensible.


    Your statements are made out of ignorance and demonstrate that you really don't know what Paleo is about. All of the arguments you've made about Paleo are shot down in any of the credible Paleo books. I suggest you read this book:

    http://www.amazon.com/It-Starts-Food-Discover-Unexpected/dp/1936608898/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340648728&sr=8-1&keywords=It+Starts+with+food

    It discusses all the major food groups: sugar, grains, dairy, legumes, seed oils, etc. and why they are unhealthy for you. So much of our nutritional beliefs are totally wrong and propagated by the food industry. I think this book will change your life and relationship with food.

    To the OP, you need to give it more than 2 weeks. I also do a lot of cycling on Paleo. I just finished the AIDS/LifeCycle, and while I wasn't 100% Paleo on the Ride, I did train for the rides Paleo.

    1) Give this more time. They will go away.
    2) It's really not. There are SOOO many great Paleo recipe websites and preparing dinner should only take 15-20 minutes.
    3) Why are you eating egg-white only? If you understood Paleo, you'd be eating the whole egg. Fat = Good!
    4) So the food I'd bring with me on rides wasn't always 100% Paleo but I'd do my best. I'd stick with gluten-free bars (like Promax) or bring Larabars with me. I'd also bring Tanka Bites (sold on Amazon) with me for protein and carbs.For protein shake, it really doesn't matter but stick to some kind of Whey.
  • gwuinsf

    Posts: 525

    Jun 25, 2012 6:44 PM GMT
    bluey2223 said
    venture saidMy brother is on it. He has lost 40lbs so far and he loves it. In fact, our entire family is considering going on it since it would make meal times a lot easier. Based on what he has told me, it works really well and its a bit of work, but after a few weeks, you don't crave any sort of carbohydrate at all. And besides, who wouldn't want steaks every day? ;)


    I can think of a slew of reasons why you wouldn't want to eat steaks every day, from environmental to physiological. I can also wonder what sort of workouts you are getting with a low carb diet.

    But no one cares because it's all about the paleo craze now. Fuck science and real nutrition.


    Dude, your statements demonstrate that you don't understand what Paleo is.

    Paleo advocates eating a variety of meat, not just red meat. It's important to vary your diet because one protein source does not give you all the nutrition you need.

    Paleo is also not low carb. It's just no grain. You can eat root vegetables, sweet potatoes, fruit, all nutritional sources of carbs. Grains do not give you the same level of nutrition. as you should know. At the height of my cycling training I was riding 100+ miles/week on Paleo.

    Paleo does not ignore science and real nutrition. It advocates protein, fresh fruits and vegetables, and fat from healthy sources. All you're eliminating are grains, legumes, dairy, and seed oils. Since you have studied nutrition, you should know that you can obtain all of your nutrition from protein, fruits and vegetables.
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    Jun 26, 2012 7:19 AM GMT
    gwuinsf said
    bluey2223 said
    venture saidMy brother is on it. He has lost 40lbs so far and he loves it. In fact, our entire family is considering going on it since it would make meal times a lot easier. Based on what he has told me, it works really well and its a bit of work, but after a few weeks, you don't crave any sort of carbohydrate at all. And besides, who wouldn't want steaks every day? ;)


    I can think of a slew of reasons why you wouldn't want to eat steaks every day, from environmental to physiological. I can also wonder what sort of workouts you are getting with a low carb diet.

    But no one cares because it's all about the paleo craze now. Fuck science and real nutrition.


    Dude, your statements demonstrate that you don't understand what Paleo is.

    Paleo advocates eating a variety of meat, not just red meat. It's important to vary your diet because one protein source does not give you all the nutrition you need.

    Paleo is also not low carb. It's just no grain. You can eat root vegetables, sweet potatoes, fruit, all nutritional sources of carbs. Grains do not give you the same level of nutrition. as you should know. At the height of my cycling training I was riding 100+ miles/week on Paleo.

    Paleo does not ignore science and real nutrition. It advocates protein, fresh fruits and vegetables, and fat from healthy sources. All you're eliminating are grains, legumes, dairy, and seed oils. Since you have studied nutrition, you should know that you can obtain all of your nutrition from protein, fruits and vegetables.


    I'm sorry you just jumped into the thread and are calling me wrong. The original poster is complaining that he misses carbs--but I'm sorry paleo fanboy who read a propaganda book on paleo (how trendy of you) thinks he's an expert on nutrition. Obviously fruits and vegetables have small amounts of carbohydrate in them that can be used for glycogen storage, the main fuel in endurance exercise. However, you will not obtain enough glucose in your diet as an endurance athlete, unless you're fine with diminished standards of performance, without including grains and legumes in your diet. Where is he going to get carbs from? Eating countless sweet potatoes and potato products?

    There is nothing inherently wrong with a whole grain. The problem with grains is that a sedentary population tends to over eat them in the refined forms. They are the primary fuel for endurance athletes who need to be eating a high carb (65-70% carbohydrate calories) diet. Not eating grains means you are limited to legumes OH WAIT you can't eat those either for complex carbohydrates, AND you're cutting out a major source of soluble fiber, which removes cholesterol. Now you're just limited to potatoes for complex carbs...mmkay. Have fun with your potatoes.
    Instead, you're advocating not eating unsaturated fatty acids, found in oils, which according to actual scientific research (not your paleo book) improve the cholesterol ratio of bad to good. I agree that oils are refined from various seeds, which have fiber, but it is all about portion control. If you dump 3 oz of oil on your salad, that is inappropriate portion control.

    The average American eats more than enough protein, especially if you eat any sort of animal flesh. Americans do not need to be told to eat more meat. The RDA is 0.8g/kg per day. For endurance athletes it's only a little higher: 1.2-1.4 g/kg protein per day. The average American already over consumes protein, easily eating enough for a bodybuilder's needs daily.

    Frankly, it's very American to eat meat--after all, it only requires a fortune more exponentially in terms of production costs to be the tertiary nitrogen assimilator (plants primary assimilate nitrogen from soil into amino acids, animals that eat plants are the secondary nitrogen assimilator, and humans raise these animals to eat the animals). This is not something to be proud of in our country as wasteful as we are with our resources.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with seed oils either. Would you rather they use butter? Either way, it's concentrated fat--you make the choice whether it is saturated or not. There is scientific research that shows that if you do not consume fat with your fruits and vegetables, you do not absorb as many fat soluble vitamins (ADEK). The jury is still out on what other phytochemicals are and aren't absorbed. If you can't portion control, that's your problem. Not because the food itself is bad. What bullshit.

    The authors in the book are not professional nutritionists. A professional nutritionist is called a dietitian, which is a legally protected title for good reason. Will you take nutrition advice from a physical therapist? :

    "Dallas Hartwig, MS, PT, CISSN, RKC
    (master of science in Anatomy and Physiology--good credential for a physical therapist, physical therapist (PT) (good for practicing physical therapy, not nutrition), CISSN--printout credential from the internet anyone can get...explained below, RKC = kettlebell certified--Wow, you can get certified in anything now! LOL)

    Dallas Hartwig earned a BS in Anatomy and Physiology and an MS in Physical Therapy from Andrews University, and has been a licensed physical therapist since 2001. He co-owned and operated a strength and conditioning facility with Melissa until founding Whole9 in November 2009. He is a Certified Sports Nutritionist through the International Society of Sports Nutrition and an RKC-certified kettlebell instructor.

    Melissa Hartwig (the wife)
    She is a Certified Sports Nutritionist through the International Society of Sports Nutrition, and is working towards a Master's degree in Health and Nutrition Education from Hawthorn University.

    (she doesn't even have a masters degree yet, and she is a certified nutritionist through a credential anyone can get on the internet)

    The International Society of Sports Nutrition doesn't even require a degree in nutrition to take their take-home exam. It is not recognized like the RD, CSSD credentials are. Universities that hire sports nutitionists generally have a masters degree in exercise physiology or nutrition, the RD credential, and the CSSD credential. Check out ISSN's website compared to eatright.org, which is for real nutrition professionals, not wannabes. It's like getting a personal training certification from something you can take home and print off the internet versus going to school for 6 years, interning in a program you have to be accepted into for 1200 hrs, and sitting for a professional exam. ISSN is a 3 hour exam to take 200 questions that you pay $500-600 for depending on whether you're dumb enough to buy their membership or not. YOU CAN TAKE IT ON THE INTERNET. Fail. Bogus credential any real professional would be ashamed to have and should be viewed as a lapse in professional judgement.

    So please, once you pass all the coursework I've passed, which includes extensive study in physiology, biochemistry, organic chemistry that any premed major must take to get into medical school as well as completed a masters degree in physiology and get accepted into 1200 hrs of supervised practice program to actually be a professional to give out nutrition advice, just STOP. You do way more harm than good. The last thing this country needs is more people confusing others on matters of nutrition. No one knows a real professional when they see one. It is not illegal yet for these physical therapists to pretend they are nutrition professionals. That's a problem in the USA. Anyone can call himself a nutritionist. The real professionals are called registered dietitians.

    And finally, just like there are good doctors and quack doctors, not all RDs are ethical either. Some make money off the fact that nutrition is so unregulated in the US. Chiroprac
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    Jun 26, 2012 7:57 AM GMT
    (continued from cut off post)
    And finally, just like there are good doctors and quack doctors, not all RDs are ethical either. Some make money off the fact that nutrition is so unregulated in the US. Chiropractors sure make a killing off of it in supplement sales from their "diplomate in nutrition" program that chiropractic schools offer (again, not a real nutrition professional).

    That said, based off of pure education and practical experience hours alone, the RD is the best nutrition credential, and it is time for the public to know this when the next generation is not living longer than the previous one because their obese parents don't know how to feed their kids healthy food and people are taking advice from physical therapists on how to be a TRENDY EATER, rather than someone who knows how to actually plan their daily nutrition needs through meals because they actually studied nutrition in the scientific community with real professors of nutrition at a university and other RDs (notice universities hire RDs with masters degrees to lecture about nutrition and to fill actual university sports nutritionist career jobs).
  • gwuinsf

    Posts: 525

    Jun 26, 2012 3:39 PM GMT
    I appreciate your education and point of view. I'm not arguing that you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously do. I think you'd get your point across much better, however, if you weren't such a douche about it. There's no need for the name calling.

    All I can respond is to say that I feel like this is something that has worked for me and resonates with me. I've done endurance events on this diet. My last physical had all my bloodwork come back much improved. I can't comment on the science since that's not my background, so all I can say is that through my personal experience, it has worked for me.
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    Jun 26, 2012 4:35 PM GMT
    Good post, Bluey. I've thought its funny any thread people ask for medical adivice in, people immediately respond - go to your Dr! Even in one thread someone suggested getting cycling helmet advice here was a bad idea and they should go to their local bike shop.

    Yet food, everyone is an expert - despite fad diets and poor eating is what is killing westerner's at alarming rates.

    I find people get really venemous about defending their fad diet because they're really sure its the first one out of the past 50 years that is not just a fad. But the OP is a great example - captain crunch for breakfast? Hates cooking with fresh food? Switching to paleo isn't what makes people feel better - its switching away from their disasterous ways of eating previously then attributing that to paleo.
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    Jun 26, 2012 5:16 PM GMT
    Wow... Funny how nothing in my original question got answered.

    I was not asking about what you think about the Paleo diet.

    No offense to those who chimed in and are very educated, but I can use the information out there and make my own educated decision. I feel better after cutting out carbs ect. but still have "cravings" for something other than a fresh veg or fruit sometimes. I was hoping to get some advice, not enter into a bullshit conversation so you all can wax poetic and intellectually masturbate.

    There are millions of diets to follow or you can follow none and eat as your heart desires. I made a switch to this diet or lifestyle or whatever you want to call it, to see if it made me feel better and allowed me to train harder to achieve better results in races. So far it has.

    I imagine there are a few people on these boards who have some experience with the diet and could address some of the downsides.

    Addressing "UofT23" please read the OP..... "Hates cooking with fresh food"..... no, it is expensive... and I am looking for some tips to shave the bill.



    So, if anyone out there has tried eating this way... and have any ways to combat the downsides; I would love to hear what you think. Thanks.

    "The only downsides are:

    1. My cravings for some sort of "indulgence" that reminds me of carbs. I really miss cereal and milk! (peanut butter capt'n crunch!)
    2. Eating fresh food and preparing it all myself is a bit time consuming and expensive.
    3. And the most embarrassing, is the nasty gas from egg-white protein.
    4. Other than a 4:1 carb protein drink mix I made with HEED drink mix and Protein powder, what is a good training "food/drink" for the long haul training days."


    So, help me out here; what are some good inexpensive tricks you have used to create some time saving, cheap and delicious foods while on this diet... both during training and all day....
    And other than ginger caps, any suggestions for a fix for problem #3.
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    Jun 28, 2012 1:51 PM GMT
    I just started to read The Paleo Diet for Athletes by Joe Friel. I'm not done with it yet, but so far the basic premise is that you can eat certain foods you would normally avoid in a standard paleo diet during specific times pre, during, and post exercise. This allows the atlete to properly restore glycogen levels. It also has some recipes that look pretty easy and can be eaten on the go. I'm intrigued by this and will probably give it a shot pretty soon.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Paleo-Diet-Athletes-Nutritional/dp/1594860890

    I've never tried to mix HEED and protein powder, but for any training rides or races that last longe than 2 hours (for me), I replace HEED with Perpetuem. Some people may not like the texture, but damn that stuff is a good source of fuel. Ever since I switch to that, along with Endurolytes, my cramping has ceased and I never really got hungry. I completed several 100 mile events and 6 hour endurance events with that as my primary source of fuel (with real food as secondary).