FORUMS > Gay Men's Health Forum Rules

I guess not too many Jewish and Muslim boys will be getting snipped in the near future...

http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religious-circumcision-172728400.html

Circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a German court ruled Tuesday in a landmark decision that the Jewish community said trampled on parents' religious rights.

The regional court in Cologne, western Germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.

"The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to be circumcised," the court added.
The case was brought against a doctor in Cologne who had circumcised a four-year-old Muslim boy on his parents' wishes.

A few days after the operation, his parents took him to hospital as he was bleeding heavily. Prosecutors then charged the doctor with grievous bodily harm.

The doctor was acquitted by a lower court that judged he had acted within the law as the parents had given their consent.

On appeal, the regional court also acquitted the doctor but for different reasons.

The regional court upheld the original charge of grievous bodily harm but also ruled that the doctor was innocent as there was too much confusion on the legal situation around circumcision.

The court came down firmly against parents' right to have the ritual performed on young children.

"The body of the child is irreparably and permanently changed by a circumcision," the court said. "This change contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on his religious beliefs."

The decision caused outrage in Germany's Jewish community.
The head of the Central Committee of Jews, Dieter Graumann, said the ruling was "an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination."

The judgement was an "outrageous and insensitive act. Circumcision of newborn boys is a fixed part of the Jewish religion and has been practiced worldwide for centuries," added Graumann.

"This religious right is respected in every country in the world."

Holm Putzke, a criminal law expert at the University of Passau, told the Financial Times Deutschland that the ruling was "enormously important for doctors because for the first time they have legal certainty."

"Unlike many politicians, the court has not allowed itself to be scared off by charges of anti-Semitism or religious intolerance," added Putzke.

The World Health Organisation has estimated that nearly one in three males under 15 is circumcised. In the United States, the operation is often performed for hygiene reasons on infants.

Thousands of young boys are circumcised every year in Germany, especially in the country's large Jewish and Muslim communities.

The court specified that circumcision was not illegal if carried out for medical reasons.

I expect massive flames from those who are "mutilated" but still want the practice to go on. I'm glad Germany is standing up to the religious bull shit that allows infant boys to have their penis mutilated.

Damned liberals!

Wonderful news.

What some call "religious bullshit" is in fact one of the most basic requirements for a Jewish male. This amounts to making Judaism illegal in Germany.
Hey, what a surprise! Germany! Making Judaism illegal! Who'd a thought...?!

Lotsa head cheese in Germany now.

Or rather yet another message to Germany's sizable Turkish minority where Angela Merkel frequently accuses Turks of not wanting to integrate into German society, lol.

pocketnico saidOr rather yet another message to Germany's sizable Turkish minority where Angela Merkel frequently accuses Turks of not wanting to integrate into German society, lol.

I hate to say it, but there are some places where the traditional folk custom of Jew hatin' is never very far from the surface.

CrankySpice saidWhat some call "religious bullshit" is in fact one of the most basic requirements for a Jewish male. This amounts to making Judaism illegal in Germany.
Hey, what a surprise! Germany! Making Judaism illegal! Who'd a thought...?!

This.

Also circumcision has been shown to reduce the risk of STDs.

CrankySpice said

pocketnico saidOr rather yet another message to Germany's sizable Turkish minority where Angela Merkel frequently accuses Turks of not wanting to integrate into German society, lol.

I hate to say it, but there are some places where the traditional folk custom of Jew hatin' is never very far from the surface.

Just ask Mel Gibson's neighbors.

Dallasfan824 saidLotsa head cheese in Germany now.

EEEEW!!! LOL!

CrankySpice said

pocketnico saidOr rather yet another message to Germany's sizable Turkish minority where Angela Merkel frequently accuses Turks of not wanting to integrate into German society, lol.

I hate to say it, but there are some places where the traditional folk custom of Jew hatin' is never very far from the surface.

Perhaps. Frankly, I'm surprised Europe still has any considerable Jewish populations left since so many have immigrated to the US and Israel since World War II.

pocketnico said

CrankySpice said

pocketnico saidOr rather yet another message to Germany's sizable Turkish minority where Angela Merkel frequently accuses Turks of not wanting to integrate into German society, lol.

I hate to say it, but there are some places where the traditional folk custom of Jew hatin' is never very far from the surface.

Perhaps. Frankly, I'm surprised Europe still has any considerable Jewish populations left since so many have immigrated to the US and Israel since World War II.

Not to be snide, but there WAS a third factor that decimated Europes Jewish population during WWII.

I'm not Jewish, so it's very difficult for me to see how circumcision at birth is based on faith rather than tradition. Boys have to confirm their faith in Judaism at some point in their teens right? So why not let them confirm their faith before circumscision?

If someone doesn't mind explaining the importance for me?

WhyWhySee saidI'm not Jewish, so it's very difficult for me to see how circumcision at birth is based on faith rather than tradition. Boys have to confirm their faith in Judaism at some point in their teens right? So why not let them confirm their faith before circumscision?

If someone doesn't mind explaining the importance for me?

A legitimate question. So infant circumcision represents God's covenant with the Jewish People. (It also recalls Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac.). On a practical level it has health benefits.

Specifically must be infants?

I think if you look at this objectively, its hard to justify lopping off a body part of an infant for "tradition". The fact is, parents can still raise their child jewish or muslim. No religion should grant a parent the right to deform a child's body regardless of how steeped in tradition it is.

This whole health benefits thing is nonsense too. If we were to chop off the entire penis there'd be immense reductions in STD transmission.

While I am opposed to elective surgical procedures of any kind being done without the patient's consent, I am concerned that circumcisions are now going to be done subversively under questionable conditions, and that this is going to lead to all sorts of health risks for infant boys.

xanadude saidWhile I am opposed to elective surgical procedures of any kind being done without the patient's consent, I am concerned that circumcisions are now going to be done subversively under questionable conditions, and that this is going to lead to all sorts of health risks for infant boys.

This is one of the drawbacks I first thought of from the ruling. It certainly won't stop some Jewish and Muslim families from circumcising their boys, but now they'll have to do it illegally in secret.

pocketnico said

xanadude saidWhile I am opposed to elective surgical procedures of any kind being done without the patient's consent, I am concerned that circumcisions are now going to be done subversively under questionable conditions, and that this is going to lead to all sorts of health risks for infant boys.

This is one of the drawbacks I first thought of from the ruling. It certainly won't stop some Jewish and Muslim families from circumcising their boys, but now they'll have to do it illegally in secret.

Great point! Back alley circumcisions!

WhyWhySee saidSpecifically must be infants?

Specifically on the 8th day of life.
It's in the Torah.

Get the court out of my pants please!! I would get a lawyer (but i'm American its a hobby, kidding), does Germany not have Church & State laws? The court has no right to interfer in the decison parents make regarding their child. That procedure has been being performed for over 2,000 years. Hell Jesus was circumcised and I'm sure some Catholic out there has the foreskin as a relic.
One procedure goes wrong and I might add on a 4 year old (not right after birth) and right away the court is involved handing down edicts for the rest of
mankind! Nein!!

I think it's time to bring in circumcision of girls to prove our point that we're not going to take it lying down. After all, most Germans aren't cut and the STD transmission rates here are astronomically high!

You can't go into a gay bar without being overpowered by the odor of head cheese and the sight of every second person downing his ARVs with a vodka Redbull.

mikkel49 saidThat procedure has been being performed for over 2,000 years. Hell Jesus was circumcised and I'm sure some Catholic out there has the foreskin as a relic!!

Ew! Gross.

mikkel49 saidGet the court out of my pants please!! I would get a lawyer (but i'm American its a hobby, kidding), does Germany not have Church & State laws? The court has no right to interfer in the decison parents make regarding their child.

That last statement might be a little over the top.