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To the many atheists on RJ:
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 3:16 AM GMT Quote How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Just curious.

Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 3:27 AM GMT Quote I deal with it as reality and do what needs to be done.
joeindallas Posts: 440	Aug 15, 2008 3:37 AM GMT Quote Agnogitic here QUe Sera Sera What Will be Will be. You can't change anything. God does not exist so why place your hopes and fears into the hands of a mythical creature. Why not the Easter Bunny ?
FitExecutive Posts: 51	Aug 15, 2008 3:41 AM GMT Quote I think we learn our coping strategies from our parents, and other adults we observe as children. If you saw your parents (for example) lean on their faith in times of trouble, you're more likely to do that. My mother could have invented the saying "don't sweat the small stuff... and it's all small stuff." We tend to just accept the things we have no control over, even when they're very painful. As a result, we're very low-stress people. You mentioned loneliness though... that's one you can exercise control over!
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 3:45 AM GMT Quote joeindallas saidAgnogitic here ... God does not exist ... Doesnt that make you an atheist? ...
SILVERFOX1 Posts: 266	Aug 15, 2008 3:53 AM GMT Quote Caslon6000 said joeindallas saidAgnogitic here ... God does not exist ... Doesnt that make you an atheist? ... An Agnostic is just like an Atheist who believes God does not exist... Unless, of course, there is a God.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Aug 15, 2008 4:27 AM GMT Quote afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. How does a belief in god make those experiences easier to cope with?
GobB Posts: 759	Aug 15, 2008 4:32 AM GMT Quote obscenewish said afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. How does a belief in god make those experiences easier to cope with? a belief in God gives you some sort of comfort that there is a greater plan, a reasonthat although you might not see it, there is one. When u think of loss it gives you a feeling that the people you love are in a better place rather than just in the ground dead, lonliness you can count on God to help you through it. Basically, to all of the things afterfall said, God is that best friend that is always there by your side through thick in thin guiding you. as a result a belief in Him, helps people to cope with lifes trials a bit easier. you have Someone to walk through the difficulties with rather than walking through them by urself.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 4:52 AM GMT Quote Caslon6000 said joeindallas saidAgnogitic here ... God does not exist ... Doesnt that make you an atheist? ... Agnostics are Atheists with a backup plan.
GobB Posts: 759	Aug 15, 2008 4:55 AM GMT Quote RBY71 said Caslon6000 said joeindallas saidAgnogitic here ... God does not exist ... Doesnt that make you an atheist? ... Agnostics are Atheists with a backup plan. i like that... that was funny.
discojim Posts: 44	Aug 15, 2008 4:56 AM GMT Quote Caslon6000 saidI deal with it as reality and do what needs to be done. Same here.
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 4:56 AM GMT Quote afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Actually, wouldnt it make it worse to endure any of the above and believe there is a God who could be doing something about them...and isn't ...
docmarvy Posts: 96	Aug 15, 2008 4:59 AM GMT Quote It's an interesting question. Those same things can also cause an individual to call into question the existence of a god. When you lose someone you care about or you're sick, can't that create just as much doubt as offer comfort? Personally, I cope by coping. You accept what you can't effect and you change the things you can. When you lose someone you go through the stages of grief. Rather than saying "It's God's will" you just say that everyone dies. It's a hard fact of life. That said, I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs. If God, Allah, etc. are in important part of your life, that's great. But that's just not what I personally draw my strength from and it wasn't a part of my upbringing.
GobB Posts: 759	Aug 15, 2008 4:59 AM GMT Quote Caslon6000 said afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Actually, wouldnt it make it worse to endure any of the above and believe there is a God who could be doing something about them...and isn't ... no... reason being, its not His job to intervene and change direction, but to give u guidance and support to make it through whatever u are going through.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 5:03 AM GMT Quote
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 5:12 AM GMT Quote GobB said Caslon6000 said afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Actually, wouldnt it make it worse to endure any of the above and believe there is a God who could be doing something about them...and isn't ... no... reason being, its not His job to intervene and change direction, but to give u guidance and support to make it through whatever u are going through. Who says it's not his job? ...Sounds like a rationalization for why you never see "God" intervening. Oh, I am not going to continue this...enjoy your deity
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 5:16 AM GMT Quote And away we go............
reedw Posts: 101	Aug 15, 2008 5:19 AM GMT Quote You'd need to know more about a religion before you understand why those aren't rationalizations or excuses.
GobB Posts: 759	Aug 15, 2008 5:23 AM GMT Quote Caslon6000 said GobB said Caslon6000 said afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Actually, wouldnt it make it worse to endure any of the above and believe there is a God who could be doing something about them...and isn't ... no... reason being, its not His job to intervene and change direction, but to give u guidance and support to make it through whatever u are going through. Who says it's not his job? ...Sounds like a rationalization for why you never see "God" intervening. Oh, I am not going to continue this...enjoy your deity hey caslon... i was simply giving an answer to your question, another perspective, nothing forced nothing personal thats all. i dont see a need for you to take it personal or to get personal. its an opinion on a thread, its ok to discuss without without getting so defensive. its ok bud, calm down lol.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 5:24 AM GMT Quote
blink777 Posts: 499	Aug 15, 2008 5:27 AM GMT Quote This thread took far too many posts before Ceiling Cat was brought in. I am shocked and appalled. noms RBY's popflamecorn
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 5:31 AM GMT Quote blink777 saidThis thread took far too many posts before Ceiling Cat was brought in. I am shocked and appalled. noms RBY's popflamecorn Careful, I might just nom you!
caesarea4 Posts: 578	Aug 15, 2008 5:38 AM GMT Quote GobB> its not His job to intervene and change direction, but to give u guidance and support to make it through whatever u are going through. Then why are so many people wasting their time praying for Him to intervene and change things? afterfall> How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? When we were young we "coped" with losing our teeth by knowing that the tooth fairy would take the tooth and leave us a present under our pillow. As adults, we can cope with reality. Isn't that better? When someone gets sick and dies we can view it as a tragic event in a harsh and imperfect world. Or we can pretend that this was either the work of the devil or that the recently departed was needed in God's court for some higher purpose. Who has actually "coped" better with what happened?
ActiveAndFit Posts: 2815	Aug 15, 2008 5:48 AM GMT Quote RBY71 saidAnd away we go............ me too! make room.. !
Skotlake Posts: 121	Aug 15, 2008 5:49 AM GMT Quote afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Rationally.
swimbikerun Posts: 916	Aug 15, 2008 5:52 AM GMT Quote Skotlake said afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Rationally. Don't forget about the ins and outs! Mmmm...double entendre...
lilmaninsc Posts: 465	Aug 15, 2008 5:54 AM GMT Quote Everyone deals with things in their own ways, whether you have the faith or not. I have several atheist friends, and I am Christian myself, but it doesn't bother me. Why should it? I never push my religion on them, and they never push me to doubt in mine. Things are just peachy!
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 5:57 AM GMT Quote ActiveAndFit said RBY71 saidAnd away we go............ me too! make room.. ! I'll make room, but maybe we can wedge Blinky between us on the couch. He can hold the popcorn.........
wrerick Posts: 869	Aug 15, 2008 6:02 AM GMT Quote I don't know that religion makes much of a difference here, yes maybe it give you a reason or the ultimate why, but more importantly it comes down to what and how you accept thing. My very religious father has, and still questions why his wife, my mother died, of a brain tumor, while I'm more of it is what it is, tragic, but nothing more or nothing less. So I think the differnece is more on of acceptance. You accept what happens, whether there is a god or causation providing the reason/answers or not. To me life inovlves many things, both good and bad, and ultimately both come ones way, and there are leasson from life in both living the good and living with loss and death. I don't know, but I have a hard time associating the christian god with both the beginning and end of life, well other than traditionas and phrases associated, but those seem more humanly inspired than divinely so, so it be what it be.
geras Posts: 88	Aug 15, 2008 6:14 AM GMT Quote I just don't get the question. I am an atheist because the supernatural doesn't make any sense, not because of its failure to provide comfort. It will hurt when there is loss, usually with time the pain will be numb. What keeps me going is the expectation that life is essentially good and worth every moment, being a living pauper is better than a dead king. As time passes I will face new challenges and people and win or lose, friend or foe dealing with them makes life worth it. Deluding myself that there is man trying looking out for my welfare does not make life more interesting nor is it useful.
sexysamer Posts: 1769	Aug 15, 2008 6:20 AM GMT Quote I have no idea afterfall. I don't think they have their own symbol?
sexysamer Posts: 1769	Aug 15, 2008 6:21 AM GMT Quote caesarea4, How can you be an Atheist and a Jew same time?
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 6:24 AM GMT Quote RBY71 saidAnd away we go............ LOL :-) It's pointless to debate the existence or non-existence of God. Whether people believe or not, as long as they don't hurt anyone or push their beliefs down others' throats, then that's great.
Delivis Posts: 405	Aug 15, 2008 6:41 AM GMT Quote I have no trouble dealing with any of those things without resorting to consoling superstitions. I have friends and a strong mind and will. I have the knowledge that life has its ups and downs and that i can not control most of them and have given up the demand or expectation to control them beyond what i can do by real means. When trouble strikes i do what i think to be the most effective action at the time and never have the slightest inclination to resort to prayer or a spell or an offering to Poseidon. Life is melancholy, beautiful, ironic, absurd, and i love it; invoking deities and demons just cheapens the whole thing.
AshLeon Posts: 148	Aug 15, 2008 7:21 AM GMT Quote Friends. Awesome, amazing, supportive friends. I have three friends that are like family to me. Lately the four of us have been going through a rough time and we're always there for each other. And chocolate. =3 Mind you, I'm not an atheist. In fact, spirituality is an important part of my life.
TallGWMvballe... Posts: 864	Aug 15, 2008 7:25 AM GMT Quote Delivis saidI have no trouble dealing with any of things without resorting to consoling superstitions. I have friends and a strong mind and will. I have the knowledge that life has its ups and downs and that i can not control most of them and have given up the demand or expectation to beyond what i can do by real means, be that prayer or a spell or an offering to Poseidon. Life is melancholy, beautiful, ironic, absurd, and i love it; invoking deities and demons just cheapens the whole thing. HERE HERE ! very well said. I get asked that same question sometimes by religious friends. My answer is that I don't need comfort in the sense that there is a master plan because I would be VERY pissed to know that there was some father figure in the sky doing all these things and demanding to be "worshipped" and allowing the cruelties to continue.
dfrw Posts: 453	Aug 15, 2008 9:55 AM GMT Quote Scotlake had the best answer so far when he wrote, "rationally."
GQjock Posts: 3694	Aug 15, 2008 10:55 AM GMT Quote Like someone already said Rationally and without wasting time appealing to a man in the sky that doesn't exist You might actually get more things done
Pattison Posts: 1990	Aug 15, 2008 11:11 AM GMT Quote For one. hevern and hell are here on this earth, and not after death. I felt more turmoil, while I had religion in my life. it did not help make the bad days, and times better. Pluse if there is a god, he has given us freedom of choice. So for him too intervein, this would be interfering with our freedom of choice. funny talking about things, that are yet to come to pass. Like talking about what America now calls 9/11, way back in May of 1999. freed me of any thoughts of religion, and the bible being true. As the bible clearly states we are an abomination to our father in heaven. So as a pure homosexual, how could this of been an act of God. We have 99% DNA the same as the chimp. What makes us different is our frontal lob. This is an amazing working muscle. Something when religion began, man knew nothing about. So to help people to understand the ability of our brain, we created something external, a god[s]. I truly am thankful for these weird advents, that has come to pass in my life. Things I talked about before they come to pass. It freed me of religion. But looking back, I find it hard to believes, I ever went to church, as religion tells us, we are an abomination, and will burn in hell. yet I don't fear death either. I have to ask. How can any self respecting homosexual, believe in god, and it's institutions, that have so long persecuted homosexuals. catholicism is one of the worst.
Laurence Posts: 624	Aug 15, 2008 11:16 AM GMT Quote Once you realise that there is no greater power it free's you up to live your life how you feel fit, without having to live by a set of rules written 1000s of years ago by MEN (usually to keep others in their place). Once you realise that there is no grand design and that terrible things happen for no reason, and good things happen for no reason. It gives you the power to create your own good things and not hang around waiting for good things to happen in another life. Living life as a decent human being, and accepting what life gives you (good and bad) aren't related to any religion. That's how I get by. Lozx
SurrealLife Posts: 4400	Aug 15, 2008 12:40 PM GMT Quote afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Just curious. Human beings have been blessed with emotions, intellect, curiousity and, like all other creatures, a will to live that is hard to extinguish. Utilizing all of these attributes has allowed me to get through the difficult parts of life. BTW I don't consider myself an atheist, the concept of God has never really resonated with me, but I could not categorically say there never has been an intelligent supreme being or beings.
TigerTim Posts: 885	Aug 15, 2008 12:49 PM GMT Quote It is instructive for the religious to consider: how does God in fact help you to cope? In my experience, even for religious people, it is the family and friends and even counsellors and colleagues who in fact help people to cope in difficult situations. People help people. That is infinitely more beautiful and more meaningful than appeal to a fantasy.
dfrw Posts: 453	Aug 15, 2008 12:50 PM GMT Quote "BTW I don't consider myself an atheist, the concept of God has never really resonated with me, but I could not categorically say there never has been an intelligent supreme being or beings." That sounds like something an agnostic would say. As an athiest, if someone shows me any evidence of God, then I will no longer be an athiest, but rather I will believe in God. Thus far, no one can show me any evidence of God.
NorthFl Posts: 93	Aug 15, 2008 12:51 PM GMT Quote Friends
SurrealLife Posts: 4400	Aug 15, 2008 12:54 PM GMT Quote dfrw said"BTW I don't consider myself an atheist, the concept of God has never really resonated with me, but I could not categorically say there never has been an intelligent supreme being or beings." That sounds like something an agnostic would say. As an athiest, if someone shows me any evidence of God, then I will no longer be an athiest, but rather I will believe in God. Thus far, no one can show me any evidence of God. That is right I would consider myself agnostic. I personally don't think human beings are capable of proving one way or another the presence of such a being. After all we are just a very minor blip in the universe. Our entire existence from beginning to end will be measured in millons of years, while the universe will exist for billions. We are very important to ourselves, but in the history of the universe we are inconsequential.
dfrw Posts: 453	Aug 15, 2008 1:10 PM GMT Quote "We are very important to ourselves, but in the history of the universe we are inconsequential." You'll get no argument from me on that.
bill007 Posts: 87	Aug 15, 2008 1:29 PM GMT Quote afterfall asked/said:How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Just curious.
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 1:55 PM GMT Quote ...a God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell--mouths mercy, and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him! - No. 44, The Mysterious Stranger Mark Twain
xanadude Posts: 147	Aug 15, 2008 1:57 PM GMT Quote GobB said Caslon6000 said afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Actually, wouldnt it make it worse to endure any of the above and believe there is a God who could be doing something about them...and isn't ... no... reason being, its not His job to intervene and change direction, but to give u guidance and support to make it through whatever u are going through. But if there is supposedly a "greater plan" to why things happen, then this insinuates that things are pretermined as to how they are going to turn out. Therefore, how can anyone have the free-will to make decisions when no matter what they choose, it is what has been already mapped out for them by their respective Higher Power as "Their will"?
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 2:01 PM GMT Quote If I were to construct a God I would furnish Him with some way and qualities and characteristics which the Present lacks. He would not stoop to ask for any man's compliments, praises, flatteries; and He would be far above exacting them. I would have Him as self-respecting as the better sort of man in these regards. He would not be a merchant, a trader. He would not buy these things. He would not sell, or offer to sell, temporary benefits of the joys of eternity for the product called worship. I would have Him as dignified as the better sort of man in this regard. He would value no love but the love born of kindnesses conferred; not that born of benevolences contracted for. Repentance in a man's heart for a wrong done would cancel and annul that sin; and no verbal prayers for forgiveness be required or desired or expected of that man. In His Bible there would be no Unforgiveable Sin. He would recognize in Himself the Author and Inventor of Sin and Author and Inventor of the Vehicle and Appliances for its commission; and would place the whole responsibility where it would of right belong: upon Himself, the only Sinner. He would not be a jealous God--a trait so small that even men despise it in each other. He would not boast. He would keep private Hs admirations of Himself; He would regard self-praise as unbecoming the dignity of his position. He would not have the spirit of vengeance in His heart. Then it would not issue from His lips. There would not be any hell--except the one we live in from the cradle to the grave. There would not be any heaven--the kind described in the world's Bibles. He would spend some of His eternities in trying to forgive Himself for making man unhappy when he could have made him happy with the same effort and he would spend the rest of them in studying astronomy. - Mark Twain's Notebook
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 2:12 PM GMT Quote Leaving out the gamblers, the burglars, and the plumbers, perhaps we do put our trust in God after a fashion. But, after all, it is an overstatement. If the cholera or black plague should come to these shores, perhaps the bulk of the nation would pray to be delivered from it, but the rest would put their trust in The Health Board... - Education and Citizenship speech Mark Twain
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 2:12 PM GMT Quote None of us can be as great as God, but any of us can be as good. - Mark Twain's Notebook, 1902-1903
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 2:14 PM GMT Quote The best minds will tell you that when a man has begotten a child he is morally bound to tenderly care for it, protect it from hurt, shielf it from disease, clothe it, feed it, bear with its waywardness, lay no hand upon it save in kindness and for its own good, and never in any case inflict upon it a wanton cruelty. God's treatment of his earthly children, every day and every night, is the exact opposite of all that, yet those best minds warmly justify these crimes, condone them, excuse them, and indignantly refuse to regard them as crimes at all, when he commits them. Your country and mine is an interesting one, but there is nothing there that is half so interesting as the human mind. - Letters from the Earth Mark Twain
caesarea4 Posts: 578	Aug 15, 2008 2:34 PM GMT Quote Thanks for the great Twain quotes, Caslon. SoccerGuy82> caesarea4, How can you be an Atheist and a Jew same time? Judaism is the tribal religion of the Jewish people. My ethnic group is Jewish. But I am an atheist and am not a member of the Jewish "church". Compare to Druze. Is it a nationality or a religion? How about Armenians or Greeks? There is an Armenian and a Greek Church, but that doesn't mean that someone stops being an Armenian or a Greek just because they become atheists. The cause for confusion is that the word "Jew" denotes membership in both the nationality and the religion. Because for thousands of years there was virtually 100% overlap between them. Maybe it would be better if we called the nationality "Hebrew" or "Israelite" or if we called members of the religion "Judaic". Does that help clarify?
joescorpio197... Posts: 833	Aug 15, 2008 2:53 PM GMT Quote obscenewish said afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. How does a belief in god make those experiences easier to cope with? ^ditto^ I don't understand how the original question has anything to do with being an atheist.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Aug 15, 2008 2:56 PM GMT Quote gobbWhen u think of loss it gives you a feeling that the people you love are in a better place rather than just in the ground dead, lonliness you can count on God to help you through it. Basically, to all of the things afterfall said, God is that best friend that is always there by your side through thick in thin guiding you. as a result a belief in Him, helps people to cope with lifes trials a bit easier. you have Someone to walk through the difficulties with rather than walking through them by urself. Actually, after both my parents died in the last two years, I got totally sick of hearing, "They're in a better place." It seemed to be a way people consoled themselves and tried to shut down my grieving. In any case, I don't see why a belief in god would necessarily require a belief in an "afterlife," a better place. The things you are describing as benefits of belief in god really boil down to hope, don't they? I think it's probably natural for people to personify aspects of the psyche, but the literalization of the personifications actually seems to cause a lot of problems.
Squarejaw Posts: 909	Aug 15, 2008 2:57 PM GMT Quote GobB saida belief in God gives you some sort of comfort that there is a greater plan, a reasonthat although you might not see it, there is one. So how do you cope with the idea that this God you worship chose to create a "greater plan" with such pain and suffering, even though He's all-powerful and all-knowing?
HighVoltageGu... Posts: 1265	Aug 15, 2008 3:16 PM GMT Quote Caslon6000 saidI deal with it as reality and do what needs to be done. And if that doesn't work, I pawn off my frustrations on others. WOO HOO! Just jokes ya'll!
gettoknowit Posts: 1042	Aug 15, 2008 3:28 PM GMT Quote I wish I could talk to more of the guys on here who would actually believe that I'm the only one using my Real Jock account.
Sedative Posts: 5407	Aug 15, 2008 3:37 PM GMT Quote RBY71 said I'll make room, but maybe we can wedge Blinky between us on the couch. He can hold the popcorn......... RAWR! I'll wedge in. Me too tired to go around in circles. But I want dinner not popcorn.
XRuggerATX Posts: 2812	Aug 15, 2008 3:51 PM GMT Quote afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Just curious. I'm not atheist. But I don't lean on mythology for support in tough times either. Inner strength and a good support network. When you have this, you don't need dogma.
XRuggerATX Posts: 2812	Aug 15, 2008 3:53 PM GMT Quote bill007 saidHow do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Just curious There was band in Albuquerque in the '90s called "Scared of Chaka". It's as though they were speaking to me. ;-)
auryn Posts: 1586	Aug 15, 2008 4:15 PM GMT Quote CHAKA ROCKS!
Jackal69 Posts: 655	Aug 15, 2008 4:37 PM GMT Quote It's hard admittedly to think of the life as a series of random encounters, some great some not so much, and all of it left to the enigmatic workings of time. That said, for me it's infinitely easier to do the former than to believe that there is a God who not only creates so much destruction but allows so much and has followers who crave so much (destruction). Either God is a sadist or could care less...either way, it doesn't help you to cope. I think the way to cope with life's ups and downs is to keep them in perspective, to realize that someone somewhere will always have it worse than you (or better), that its better to take action on those things you can control and the rest, leave it alone. Also, in the perspective of the planet or even the universe, humans are around for barely a second...carpe diem and all of that.
Caslon7000 Posts: 7952	Aug 15, 2008 4:47 PM GMT Quote str8hardbody saidWhen I'm sad, lonely & broken hearted I always pray to God. I'm proud to be Catholic. I do pray everyday, I feel great when I pray. That didnt seem to help you on your birthday. Or did you forget to pray?
Delivis Posts: 405	Aug 15, 2008 4:54 PM GMT Quote str8hardbody saidWhen I'm sad, lonely & broken hearted I always pray to God. I'm proud to be Catholic. I do pray everyday, I feel great when I pray. Do you actually believe in the external efficacy of prayer, or do you do it for internal benefit, to console yourself?
lilmaninsc Posts: 465	Aug 15, 2008 4:59 PM GMT Quote I think these types of threads are never ending. Just accept that people have faith, and some don't. It's that simple...why question it? Is it wrong of someone to believe in something? I don't get what the big freakin' deal is.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 5:04 PM GMT Quote I was brought up by an Athiest (my dad) and a Unitarian (my mom), and I'm more-or-less an athiest. In actuality, I'm an extreme constructivist... I don't believe in an objective reality, I think that we construct the universe we live in through the process of life itself. So, given that (LOL) I've never had any problem coping with life's ups and downs... and I've never understood why people who believe in a god think it must be so damned tough to deal without it. The world is a wonderful, unpredictable, quirky place. Sometimes great things happen, sometimes shit happens. Meaning is what you make of it. If there is a problem, fix it and/or move on. Maybe I've just had a blessed life... but I don't know why people so desperately need to look for things to latch on to to "cope".
soulislost Posts: 17	Aug 15, 2008 5:04 PM GMT Quote I could say something, but I won't.
TigerTim Posts: 885	Aug 15, 2008 5:24 PM GMT Quote Jackal69 saidIt's hard admittedly to think of the life as a series of random encounters, some great some not so much, and all of it left to the enigmatic workings of time. Are you aware that your life is not random at all? There is a very good definition of random, namely that outcomes are uncorrelated. Your life is highly correlated, highly biased. People abuse that word, and it is not a good thing to do.
Jackal69 Posts: 655	Aug 15, 2008 5:38 PM GMT Quote Perhaps "random" wasn't the best word in the sense that much in life follows patterns and one incident can be "explained" by another (such as whatever occured prior to your writing or realjock, or my reply). That said, the concept of disjointed continuity or order, at least in the context of a discussion about the pertinence of God, approaches "intelligent design" too much for my comfort. But anyway, thanks for focusing on the semantics and not the substance of the comment.
Delivis Posts: 405	Aug 15, 2008 5:52 PM GMT Quote One obvious impetus for religious and other superstitious behavoir is to fill in gaps in knowledge. We are pattern seeking, explanation seeking primates and as Christopher Hitchens puts it, we "prefer a conspiracy or junk theory to no theory at all". When a disaster strikes, or even just a mild misfortune that we had no control over we look for an explanation with whatever is available around us - the position of Venus on the night sky, your birthday, the fury of the local deity, the herb you ate the night before, the ill thoughts you had about your neighbour, etc. None of these things actually have an influence on, say, whether you got sick, or got into a car accident. We are very good at making false positives. People find it very difficult to accept that they have no control over some things in the Universe, and that probability, chance, statistics, and randomness play a much greater role than we would like. Hence we have things like gods, astrology, homeopathy, numerology, etc.
TigerTim Posts: 885	Aug 15, 2008 7:49 PM GMT Quote Jackal69 saidBut anyway, thanks for focusing on the semantics and not the substance of the comment. There's no need to be rude and no, this is not mere semantics. Whether life is deterministic, "random" or planned is absolutely fundamental to the question. We must be extremely careful about the language we use because this is perhaps the best example of how the vocabulary we choose in fact constrains and affects our thinking. And the grand claim of religion is to explain the order in the universe. Our counter-claim --- an audacious one --- is to do so without appeal to superfluous entities. If the universe is random, there is no order. Which is patently false. Sapere Audem.
metlboy Posts: 34	Aug 15, 2008 7:54 PM GMT Quote I used to call myself agnostic, but people would always try to convince me one way or the other. Now I prefer to think of myself as "apatheistic". I just don't care.
SurrealLife Posts: 4400	Aug 15, 2008 8:10 PM GMT Quote TigerTim said Jackal69 saidBut anyway, thanks for focusing on the semantics and not the substance of the comment. There's no need to be rude and no, this is not mere semantics. Whether life is deterministic, "random" or planned is absolutely fundamental to the question. We must be extremely careful about the language we use because this is perhaps the best example of how the vocabulary we choose in fact constrains and affects our thinking. And the grand claim of religion is to explain the order in the universe. Our counter-claim --- an audacious one --- is to do so without appeal to superfluous entities. If the universe is random, there is no order. Which is patently false. Sapere Audem. Well I can see your point TigerTim that there is "order" in the universe, but I personally believe it is chaotic order if that makes any sense. The future is unpredictable, unknown, fluid with many potential future outcomes. The expression "God's Will" has always puzzled me. It gives the impression that the future is fixed and pre-determined. That no human action will change the outcome. That assertion does not stand up under much scrutiny. A very simple example would be the AIDS crisis in Africa. It is not "God's Will" that so many died of AIDS in Africa in the last 10 years. It was more due to the lack of affordable anti-HIV meds. Now that these meds. are being made available the # of fatalities worldwide due to AIDS is decreasing.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 15, 2008 8:32 PM GMT Quote GregStevensTX saidI was brought up by an Athiest (my dad) and a Unitarian (my mom), and I'm more-or-less an athiest. Well, well, look who's here. Welcome back.
TigerTim Posts: 885	Aug 15, 2008 8:35 PM GMT Quote What do you mean SurrealLife by "Chaotic" Order? I am an atheist, as I hope is clear, and I may even agree with you, but I'm afraid I find these quasi-metaphysical debates to be generally lacking in rigour.
Atlazeia Posts: 605	Aug 15, 2008 8:48 PM GMT Quote
Sedative Posts: 5407	Aug 15, 2008 9:23 PM GMT Quote TigerTim saidWhat do you mean SurrealLife by "Chaotic" Order? I am an atheist, as I hope is clear, and I may even agree with you, but I'm afraid I find these quasi-metaphysical debates to be generally lacking in rigour. Moah What is discrete and what is infinite? What is order and what is chaos?
McGay Posts: 3181	Aug 15, 2008 9:32 PM GMT Quote Perhaps god is rot and decay. After all, we all succumb to it.
lilmaninsc Posts: 465	Aug 15, 2008 9:48 PM GMT Quote Are you dissing God? I should stay out of this thread. There are some religious folk who try to push it on others, but that's not everyone. There are some atheists that try to convince the religious that there is no God, but that's not everyone. Why must we generalize everyone into those categories of the ones who do do that stuff? Is it human nature to test other people? Is it in our nature to cause wars? No, it's just stupid people who thinks that they are right and everyone must listen to what they say. What ever happened to free will? Freedom of religion? Our freedom to believe in whatever we want to believe in. Is it so hard to accept others for who they are and what they believe in? In my experience, I feel that the gay population has the most issues with this. Also the most drama. Maybe that's why I don't have any gay friends. Straight people are so much more "accepting" and drama-free. sorry if I offended anyone, not my intentions.
meninlove Posts: 1170	Aug 15, 2008 10:19 PM GMT Quote Hey lilmaninsc, Yes, we have drama, but that's what makes us so darn interesting. GregStevensTX and I share a commonality, though with me it was grandparents; an atheist and a roman catholic. They argued their points openly in front of and with us. Perfect and wouldn't have had it any other way. I chose christian, my sister atheism. Whatever works for the individual. We're supposed to argue our points and differences of opinion. That's what it's all about. Politely. Sorry, sometimes I become Marvin Poppins, Mary's cousin with an attitude. -Doug
ActiveAndFit Posts: 2815	Aug 16, 2008 3:44 AM GMT Quote afterfall said How do you cope with life's many ups and downs? Sickness, terminal illness, loss, loneliness, financial difficulty, etc - situations that you have completely no control over. Just curious. Sometimes when thinking about polarity or opposites (i.e. God vs. no god) we miss the obvious. Those things that we have no control over can teach us humility, but more importantly it is a chance for humans to rely on each other and help one another.
Squarejaw Posts: 909	Aug 16, 2008 4:22 AM GMT Quote GregStevensTX saidI don't believe in an objective reality I've noticed that people who don't believe in an objective reality still stop at red lights. I bet they keep their eyes open when they walk along the edge of a cliff, too.
muchmorethanm... Posts: 2767	Aug 16, 2008 4:36 AM GMT Quote Caslon6000 said joeindallas saidAgnogitic here ... God does not exist ... Doesnt that make you an atheist? ... LOL..good one Cas, you're a sharp one.
GuiltyGear Posts: 2825	Aug 16, 2008 4:47 AM GMT Quote
muchmorethanm... Posts: 2767	Aug 16, 2008 5:24 AM GMT Quote Notice how a lot of people on this site reject the possibility of an existence beyond this reality. I can see why. It's been my experience that those that are very in touch with the physical tend to simply be in touch with just that. It's very unusual to find those that are willing to embrace both a physical and a spiritual world. I'm not claiming to have the answers for you but I am coming to my own conclusions as to what works for me. I'd like to think that there is only one dogma (for lack of a better term)that applies to us. I mean when you think about it, we all need air to breathe, food to give us sustenance, etc. We have these same basic needs, so why would there be different religions that have geographically burgeoned throughout the four corners of the globe? I'll simply point out a few things I've embarked on that have helped me and maybe perhaps some of you might want to check it out. I read a very powerful book called A Course in Miracles. It's an incredible book written in the 70's by an author who was a psychologist. She wrote the book under a trance like state and it took her 7 years to write the book. A coworker jotted down what she said and the book was then created. It's a very powerful read and everyone I've recommended the book to could not finish it. I took a whole summer to read it. Not because I'm THAT slow of a reader, but rather I needed time to digest each chapter. It's a book that talks about "atonement" which is the "undoing" of basically all the belief systems you've accepted that can hold you back. It was also the first book to confirm my ideas that the body truly is an extension of the mind. And a healed mind means a healed body. An unhealed mind can result in problems that can manifest physically. I will only speak for myself and say that I can relate to this 110%! It's helped me understand forgiveness better. It's helped me manage my anger, which I have too much of (as some of you unfortunate few have been on the receiving end of) I've also studied the Cabala a bit. Damn this shit is hard to learn it alone. But from what little I've learned I've grown to understand that God isn't this pure good being. God is not a "HE" because to refer to God as such implies that you put limits on God. And an ultimate creator has absolutely no limits. Therefore God is everything from merciful to vengeful, from a he to a she. Also I watched the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?" That movie was really fascinating to me. It was set up sort of like a documentary. It deals with metaphysics but most metaphysicists concurred that this movie was hogwash. But one thing that really made an impression on me was this one guy in the movie that said he believed that God was the highest vibration within all living things. That really struck a cord with me and made me think. Another concept expressed in this movie was that science has isolated the proteins associated with emotions that make the body respond. Sort of like when you get weak in the knees, or dizzy, etc. when you think about certain thoughts. They've isolated these proteins as peptides that transmit from the brain to receptor sites within the body. And in a nutshell the brain is triggered to fire these peptides and then your body gets a response and then you feel such an intense emotion. They went so far as to classify this process as the brain or rather your conscious self being addicted to these emotional ups and downs. And in order to indulge in these sensations your you allow your thoughts to indulge in these patterns over and over again. And this state of mind creates your reality. So think about it. If you're addicted to thinking happy thoughts or angry thoughts what do you think you're going to draw toward yourself? This was ground breaking for me because I realized that I sometimes get caught up in thought patterns that consume me. So I made a conscious effort to tell myself I no longer wish to be addicted to these emotions. It was very transforming for me and for the better. You have NO idea. I just thought I'd share what I've been working on. I know there is something more out there. I know the world is falling apart and going crazy. But I believe that your mindset has a lot of power. It can either serve to help you or it can annihilate you. Damn, I don't recall typing out a post on RJ that was this long. I got carried away.
SurrealLife Posts: 4400	Aug 16, 2008 10:26 AM GMT Quote TigerTim saidWhat do you mean SurrealLife by "Chaotic" Order? I am an atheist, as I hope is clear, and I may even agree with you, but I'm afraid I find these quasi-metaphysical debates to be generally lacking in rigour. That is because TigerTim you have in-depth scientific training and education. I approach a topic like this both from the point of view of science as well as literature, psychology and history. The word "order" gives me the impression of a rational progression. I agree there is a logical cause and effect to things, but life is full of the unpredictable, "wild cards" you could say, that change the order of things. For example, the attacks of 9/11 were very unexpected but preventable. From those attacks resonated a whols eries of events that will impact human societies for decades to come.
dfrw Posts: 453	Aug 16, 2008 10:30 AM GMT Quote To lilmaninsc and meninlove: I don't have an issue with you having religious beliefs because you're not bombing those that disagree with you, you're not physically attacking those that disagree with you, you're not attempting to legislate with your religious beliefs, and you're not trying to proselytyze children in government-funded public schools. I do have an issue with those having religious beliefs similar to yours who do bomb, who do attack, who do legislate, and who do proselytyze in government-funded public schools. I would certainly encourage you to learn that we're here likely because of the big bang, that we're an evolved and evolving species, read the Origin of Species and The Selfish Gene, accept that all of this happens without a purpose, and finally encourage you to make life the best it can be with such a newly-found understanding.
GQjock Posts: 3694	Aug 16, 2008 11:54 AM GMT Quote Rational thought... anathema to religion ">
caesarea4 Posts: 578	Aug 16, 2008 1:37 PM GMT Quote SurrealLife> TigerTim you have in-depth scientific training and education. I approach a topic like this both from the point of view of science as well as literature, psychology and history. The word "order" gives me the impression of a rational progression. I agree there is a logical cause and effect to things, but life is full of the unpredictable, "wild cards" you could say, that change the order of things. I think for you the results are what constitute order, whereas for scientists like TigerTim it is about the process which produces results. The laws of nature are fixed and indeed science itself is based on the ability to predict results based on the process (model). Under the same conditions, a chemical reaction will produce the same results time and again. To Tim (and me) that's order. You, on the other hand, say that the outcome will vary based on the ingredients and thus there is only a "chaotic order".
meninlove Posts: 1170	Aug 16, 2008 2:59 PM GMT Quote hey dfrw, Interesting post, but while I (Doug) claim to be a christian and a complete heretic, I never said I was religious. As far as things happening without a purpose, well of course. Things happen from causes, which are often random, and more often, Man induced. My belief in God is personal, and though I'd like to share it, it is subjective, and atheists prefer objectivity. ...here's what I said in another thread, "Now I'll turn everything on its head and say that as a heretical christian, atheists are absolutely necessary. I respect them enormously. They look at the spiritual with an Evidential Occam's Razor. They take the blinkers off the devout and cure the accompanying tunnel vision.".... from http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/261224/
SurrealLife Posts: 4400	Aug 16, 2008 3:13 PM GMT Quote caesarea4 saidSurrealLife> TigerTim you have in-depth scientific training and education. I approach a topic like this both from the point of view of science as well as literature, psychology and history. The word "order" gives me the impression of a rational progression. I agree there is a logical cause and effect to things, but life is full of the unpredictable, "wild cards" you could say, that change the order of things. I think for you the results are what constitute order, whereas for scientists like TigerTim it is about the proce