Up to 300,000 Palestinians visit Israel for Ramadan. "Settlements" are not the obstacle to peace. The Arab opposition to "peace with Israel" is (seeking instead "peace withOUT Israel").

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    Aug 23, 2012 1:24 AM GMT
    Up to 300,000 Palestinians visit Israel for Ramadan

    http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/up-to-300-000-palestinians-visit-israel-for-ramadan.premium-1.459810

    In what qualifies by now as a confidence-building measure, Defense Minister Ehud Barak spoke Tuesday with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, sending him best wishes for the end-of-Ramadan Id al-Fitr holiday. The two discussed economic and security coordination between the PA and Israel. In the past, Barak met regularly with PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, but recently there has been a dearth of top-level meetings between delegates from the two sides. So the Barak-Abbas discussion yesterday symbolized an effort undertaken by Israel's defense establishment to preserve cooperation between the sides and maintain defense-economic cooperation in a period of comatose diplomatic talks, and continuing tensions between Israeli and Palestinian leaders.

    The PA, it bears mentioning, consistently attempts to impair Israel's international standing, while Israel publicly criticizes the Palestinians for condoning anti-Israel incitement on official PA media outlets. Abbas and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu avoid direct discussions, using intermediaries Yitzhak Molho and Saeb Erekat to deliver messages to each other, and Abbas and Netanyahu rarely miss opportunities to upbraid each other in public. At the same time, though, second-tier Israeli and PA officials in defense and economic posts enjoy excellent relations. These ties feature almost daily meetings, with top Israeli security officials frequently visiting Ramallah, while their Palestinian counterparts are not infrequently found in Tel Aviv offices. These visits bypass the media spotlight in the PA and Israel.

    Israel and the PA share an interest in preserving the unprecedented level of security that continues today on the West Bank, and this interest is presumably the cause of such close cooperation between the second-rank Israeli and PA officials. This story of cooperation between Israeli and PA figures is well captured by end-of-Ramadan images in Tel Aviv: yesterday, thousands of Palestinians from all parts of the West Bank, from Jenin in the north to Hebron and Bethlehem in the south, enjoyed the final hours of Id al-Fitr on the Tel Aviv beaches. Just a few years ago such an image would have seemed unimaginable in view of continuing strife in the West Bank and violent tensions between Palestinians and Israelis.

    However, the quiet that has since taken hold, reinforced by close cooperation between officials from the two sides, allowed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians this month to make their first visit to Israel in years.

    PA figures indicate that during the Ramadan month, some 300,000 Palestinians entered Israel in coordinated visits. Israeli officials cite a lower yet nonetheless staggering figure of 200,000. Ironically, this trend caused significant economic damage to Palestinian vendors who lost untold customers - local Palestinians who took their business to Israel.

    ...it is impossible to dismiss the implications of these images of Palestinian visitors to Tel Aviv beaches, or the Malha shopping mall in Jerusalem, during the Ramadan holiday. Steps taken by Israeli officials - such as allowing younger Palestinian men to enter the country - were less media-friendly than dramatic gestures such as prisoner releases, yet these changes may have significantly improved the atmosphere between the two sides, as well as the feelings of average Palestinians.

    In the West Bank, the army's Central Command took down some checkpoints, including one at the northern exit from Jericho; for the first time in years, cars passed through this busy spot in the city unimpeded. Also, Israeli officials in the territories made the gesture of granting an additional 5,000 permits for Palestinian laborers to work in Israel, particularly in construction. Israeli officials believe that today close to 100,000 Palestinians are employed in Israel - this figure includes people employed on Jewish settlements - and that 60,000 of them workers have legal permits. Also, this month Israeli officials authorized the transfer of tax revenue to the PA so that Palestinians who work for the PA will receive monthly salary payments.

    Thanks to activities undertaken by PA networks, and to security-economic coordination with Israel, the West Bank has become an island of stability in the region during a period of political turbulence and tumult.
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    Aug 23, 2012 1:26 AM GMT
    See also:

    Arab-Israeli COOPERATION: Palestinian Authority Officials receive Agricultural Training in Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2408708

    Yalla, Peace!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1285693

    Revisiting the Clinton Compromise Parameters
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2271313
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    Aug 24, 2012 5:00 PM GMT
    LOL. How funny is it that AyaTrollah pouncer, who pretends to have me on "ignore" since he can't intelligently respond to my refutations of his Iranian propaganda, nonetheless saw this thread (he still hasn't comprehended that when you actually have someone on "ignore", you don't see their posts and can't post to them.)

    Haaretz> apparently someone told them that those were permitted “only to Jews.

    But they aren't. AyaTrollah pouncer just repeats this to make people think they are.

    Haaretz> Tomorrow they will return to their depressing reality

    The reality is that they refuse to make peace.
    They can't expect peace dividends without making that investment.


    AyaTrollah pouncer> a one-state solution

    How come its proponents can't answer here?
    Is it because their "one-state 'solution'" is an Arab state?
    Just the latest ploy to destroy the Jewish state?

    Questions For One-Staters
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2530572
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    Aug 24, 2012 5:09 PM GMT
    beautiful for a one state solution would you agree?
  • O5vx

    Posts: 3154

    Aug 30, 2012 2:02 AM GMT
    IanCT saidbeautiful for a one state solution would you agree?


    It is too early to be talking about one state solution.
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    Aug 30, 2012 2:12 AM GMT
    O5vx said
    IanCT saidbeautiful for a one state solution would you agree?


    It is too early to be talking about one state solution.





    Well, maybe not, because the Settlements that the Far Right LIKUDS and such apologists as our RJ LIL'AIPAC have been promoting over these last few years has nearly strangled the two state solution. IS THAT NOT AFTER ALL THEIR GOAL TO REACH 'GREATER ISRAEL', obtaining all of the West Bank ?


    Read this from Mondoweiss about this topic


    Two-stater says the reality has shifted to one apartheid state


    Here is another sign of the end of the two-state paradigm in the minds of those who were engaged in building two states. The dialogue project, bitterlemons, is closing down. From the two statements below, you can see that Palestinian intellectuals are growing increasingly resentful of normalization efforts, and that the hope that some felt around the two-state solution has drained away, including from European sponsors. (Thanks to Paul Mutter).

    Palestinian partner Ghassan Khatib, formerly of the P.A., says this:


    In the foreword to "The Best of Bitterlemons" compilation published in 2007, I noted that we rarely had trouble recruiting writers. Despite the feeling among many in the Arab world that contact with Israelis is tantamount to accepting Israel's occupation, seldom did authors decline an invitation. Lately, we have observed that this has changed, that even once-forthcoming Palestinians are less interested in sharing ideas with Israelis just across the way. Still, we have been able to present the voices of security chiefs and political prisoners, military generals and farmers losing land, spokespersons for armed groups and peaceniks in an equal and fair manner--rather differently than the situation on the ground.

    Nevertheless, this achievement is bittersweet as the scenery around us grows ever more dark and uncertain. Two decades after the signing of the Declaration of Principles that many hoped would usher in the creation of a Palestinian state and independence, freedom and security, Palestinians and Israelis are barely conversational. The structures created by those agreements have atrophied, corrupted by an increasing imbalance in the Palestinian relationship with Israel. Every day, there is new word of land confiscations, arrests, demolitions, and legislative maneuvers to solidify Israel's control. Israel's political leaders are beholden to a tide of right-wing sentiment and Palestinian leaders are made to appear ever-smaller in their shrinking spheres of control.

    We are now, it appears, at the lowest point in the arc of the pendulum, one that is swinging away from the two-state solution into a known unknown: an apartheid Israel. How this new "one-state" option will be transformed into a solution that provides freedom and security for all remains to be seen.

    Israeli partner Yossi Alpher adds this:


    We are ceasing publication for reasons involving fatigue--on a number of fronts. First, there is donor fatigue. Why, donors ask, should we continue to support a Middle East dialogue project that not only has not made peace, but cannot "prove" to our satisfaction--especially at a time of revolution and violence throughout the region--that it has indeed raised the level of civilized discussion? Why fight the Israeli right-wing campaign against European and American state funding and the Palestinian campaign against "normalization"?

    These last two negative developments also reflect local fatigue. There is no peace process and no prospect of one. Informal "track II" dialogue--bitterlemons might be described as a "virtual" track II--is declining. Here and there, writers from the region who used to favor us with their ideas and articles are now begging off, undoubtedly deterred by the revolutionary rise of intolerant political forces in their countries or neighborhood.





    About Philip Weiss
    Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.
    View all posts by Philip Weiss →
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 30, 2012 7:56 PM GMT
    O5vx saidIt is too early to be talking about one state solution.

    Not only true, but the so-called "one-state 'solution'" is not only impractical, but not wanted by the majority of both Israelis (Arabs & Jews) and Palestinian Arabs.

    Those who advocate this are those who seek Israel's destruction, one way or another.
    Just look at the progression:

    1947-48: Against partition, throw the Jews into the sea.
    1949-1967 (Arabs hold territories): No call for creation of Arab Palestine.
    1967-1993 (Israel holds territories): Call for Palestinian Arab self-determination in an Arab state (to replace Israel).
    1993-Present (post Oslo, with the possibility of two states coexisting in peace): We reject two-states and want one (Arab) State.


    Why impractical?
    Look here:

    Questions For One-Staters
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2530572

    57 posts and counting, yet the few supporters of the so-called "one-state 'solution'" have yet to even attempt to answer one question.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 30, 2012 8:06 PM GMT
    LIL'AIPAC, your spamming has been reported,


    WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR DIALOG ON THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION BELOW












    Read this from Mondoweiss about this topic


    Two-stater says the reality has shifted to one apartheid state


    Here is another sign of the end of the two-state paradigm in the minds of those who were engaged in building two states. The dialogue project, bitterlemons, is closing down. From the two statements below, you can see that Palestinian intellectuals are growing increasingly resentful of normalization efforts, and that the hope that some felt around the two-state solution has drained away, including from European sponsors. (Thanks to Paul Mutter).

    Palestinian partner Ghassan Khatib, formerly of the P.A., says this:


    In the foreword to "The Best of Bitterlemons" compilation published in 2007, I noted that we rarely had trouble recruiting writers. Despite the feeling among many in the Arab world that contact with Israelis is tantamount to accepting Israel's occupation, seldom did authors decline an invitation. Lately, we have observed that this has changed, that even once-forthcoming Palestinians are less interested in sharing ideas with Israelis just across the way. Still, we have been able to present the voices of security chiefs and political prisoners, military generals and farmers losing land, spokespersons for armed groups and peaceniks in an equal and fair manner--rather differently than the situation on the ground.

    Nevertheless, this achievement is bittersweet as the scenery around us grows ever more dark and uncertain. Two decades after the signing of the Declaration of Principles that many hoped would usher in the creation of a Palestinian state and independence, freedom and security, Palestinians and Israelis are barely conversational. The structures created by those agreements have atrophied, corrupted by an increasing imbalance in the Palestinian relationship with Israel. Every day, there is new word of land confiscations, arrests, demolitions, and legislative maneuvers to solidify Israel's control. Israel's political leaders are beholden to a tide of right-wing sentiment and Palestinian leaders are made to appear ever-smaller in their shrinking spheres of control.

    We are now, it appears, at the lowest point in the arc of the pendulum, one that is swinging away from the two-state solution into a known unknown: an apartheid Israel. How this new "one-state" option will be transformed into a solution that provides freedom and security for all remains to be seen.

    Israeli partner Yossi Alpher adds this:

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 30, 2012 10:15 PM GMT
    Pouncer said
    RLD saidLIL'AIPAC, your spamming has been reported

    Report Spam
    Report User
    Ignore his Posts

    ROTFL. I'm spamming my own topic?
    How clueless the usual suspects are.

    Is it any wonder that RLD and pouncer are 2 of the most ignored people on RJ?

    Not to mention the hypocrisy. By continuing to post here they show that they themselves haven't bothered to put me on "ignore".
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 30, 2012 10:34 PM GMT
    Wolverine4 said
    Pouncer said
    RLD saidLIL'AIPAC, your spamming has been reported

    Report Spam
    Report User
    Ignore his Posts

    ROTFL. I'm spamming my own topic?
    How clueless the usual suspects are.

    Is it any wonder that RLD and pouncer are 2 of the most ignored people on RJ?

    Not to mention the hypocrisy. By continuing to post here they show that they themselves haven't bothered to put me on "ignore".


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lets get back to the subject. Why do you have such a problem responding to fellow JEWISH WRITERS ON A JEWISH SITE CALLED MONDOWEISS ?

    It is too early to be talking about one state solution.





    Well, maybe not, because the Settlements that the Far Right LIKUDS and such apologists as our RJ LIL'AIPAC have been promoting over these last few years has nearly strangled the two state solution. IS THAT NOT AFTER ALL THEIR GOAL TO REACH 'GREATER ISRAEL', obtaining all of the West Bank ?


    Read this from Mondoweiss about this topic


    Two-stater says the reality has shifted to one apartheid state


    Here is another sign of the end of the two-state paradigm in the minds of those who were engaged in building two states. The dialogue project, bitterlemons, is closing down. From the two statements below, you can see that Palestinian intellectuals are growing increasingly resentful of normalization efforts, and that the hope that some felt around the two-state solution has drained away, including from European sponsors. (Thanks to Paul Mutter).

    Palestinian partner Ghassan Khatib, formerly of the P.A., says this:


    In the foreword to "The Best of Bitterlemons" compilation published in 2007, I noted that we rarely had trouble recruiting writers. Despite the feeling among many in the Arab world that contact with Israelis is tantamount to accepting Israel's occupation, seldom did authors decline an invitation. Lately, we have observed that this has changed, that even once-forthcoming Palestinians are less interested in sharing ideas with Israelis just across the way. Still, we have been able to present the voices of security chiefs and political prisoners, military generals and farmers losing land, spokespersons for armed groups and peaceniks in an equal and fair manner--rather differently than the situation on the ground.

    Nevertheless, this achievement is bittersweet as the scenery around us grows ever more dark and uncertain. Two decades after the signing of the Declaration of Principles that many hoped would usher in the creation of a Palestinian state and independence, freedom and security, Palestinians and Israelis are barely conversational. The structures created by those agreements have atrophied, corrupted by an increasing imbalance in the Palestinian relationship with Israel. Every day, there is new word of land confiscations, arrests, demolitions, and legislative maneuvers to solidify Israel's control. Israel's political leaders are beholden to a tide of right-wing sentiment and Palestinian leaders are made to appear ever-smaller in their shrinking spheres of control.

    We are now, it appears, at the lowest point in the arc of the pendulum, one that is swinging away from the two-state solution into a known unknown: an apartheid Israel. How this new "one-state" option will be transformed into a solution that provides freedom and security for all remains to be seen.

    Israeli partner Yossi Alpher adds this:


    We are ceasing publication for reasons involving fatigue--on a number of fronts. First, there is donor fatigue. Why, donors ask, should we continue to support a Middle East dialogue project that not only has not made peace, but cannot "prove" to our satisfaction--especially at a time of revolution and violence throughout the region--that it has indeed raised the level of civilized discussion? Why fight the Israeli right-wing campaign against European and American state funding and the Palestinian campaign against "normalization"?

    These last two negative developments also reflect local fatigue. There is no peace process and no prospect of one. Informal "track II" dialogue--bitterlemons might be described as a "virtual" track II--is declining. Here and there, writers from the region who used to favor us with their ideas and articles are now begging off, undoubtedly deterred by the revolutionary rise of intolerant political forces in their countries or neighborhood.





    About Philip Weiss
    Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 30, 2012 11:02 PM GMT
    O5vx saidIt is too early to be talking about one state solution.

    Not only true, but the so-called "one-state 'solution'" is not only impractical, but not wanted by the majority of both Israelis (Arabs & Jews) and Palestinian Arabs.

    Those who advocate this are those who seek Israel's destruction, one way or another.
    Just look at the progression:

    1947-48: Against partition, throw the Jews into the sea.
    1949-1967 (Arabs hold territories): No call for creation of Arab Palestine.
    1967-1993 (Israel holds territories): Call for Palestinian Arab self-determination in an Arab state (to replace Israel).
    1993-Present (post Oslo, with the possibility of two states coexisting in peace): We reject two-states and want one (Arab) State.


    Why impractical?
    Look here:

    Questions For One-Staters
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2530572

    60 posts and counting, yet the few supporters of the so-called "one-state 'solution'" have yet to even attempt to answer one question.
  • O5vx

    Posts: 3154

    Aug 30, 2012 11:06 PM GMT
    realifedad said
    Wolverine4 said
    Pouncer said
    RLD saidLIL'AIPAC, your spamming has been reported

    Report Spam
    Report User
    Ignore his Posts

    ROTFL. I'm spamming my own topic?
    How clueless the usual suspects are.

    Is it any wonder that RLD and pouncer are 2 of the most ignored people on RJ?

    Not to mention the hypocrisy. By continuing to post here they show that they themselves haven't bothered to put me on "ignore".


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lets get back to the subject. Why do you have such a problem responding to fellow JEWISH WRITERS ON A JEWISH SITE CALLED MONDOWEISS ?

    It is too early to be talking about one state solution.





    Well, maybe not, because the Settlements that the Far Right LIKUDS and such apologists as our RJ LIL'AIPAC have been promoting over these last few years has nearly strangled the two state solution. IS THAT NOT AFTER ALL THEIR GOAL TO REACH 'GREATER ISRAEL', obtaining all of the West Bank ?


    Read this from Mondoweiss about this topic


    Two-stater says the reality has shifted to one apartheid state


    Here is another sign of the end of the two-state paradigm in the minds of those who were engaged in building two states. The dialogue project, bitterlemons, is closing down. From the two statements below, you can see that Palestinian intellectuals are growing increasingly resentful of normalization efforts, and that the hope that some felt around the two-state solution has drained away, including from European sponsors. (Thanks to Paul Mutter).

    Palestinian partner Ghassan Khatib, formerly of the P.A., says this:


    In the foreword to "The Best of Bitterlemons" compilation published in 2007, I noted that we rarely had trouble recruiting writers. Despite the feeling among many in the Arab world that contact with Israelis is tantamount to accepting Israel's occupation, seldom did authors decline an invitation. Lately, we have observed that this has changed, that even once-forthcoming Palestinians are less interested in sharing ideas with Israelis just across the way. Still, we have been able to present the voices of security chiefs and political prisoners, military generals and farmers losing land, spokespersons for armed groups and peaceniks in an equal and fair manner--rather differently than the situation on the ground.

    Nevertheless, this achievement is bittersweet as the scenery around us grows ever more dark and uncertain. Two decades after the signing of the Declaration of Principles that many hoped would usher in the creation of a Palestinian state and independence, freedom and security, Palestinians and Israelis are barely conversational. The structures created by those agreements have atrophied, corrupted by an increasing imbalance in the Palestinian relationship with Israel. Every day, there is new word of land confiscations, arrests, demolitions, and legislative maneuvers to solidify Israel's control. Israel's political leaders are beholden to a tide of right-wing sentiment and Palestinian leaders are made to appear ever-smaller in their shrinking spheres of control.

    We are now, it appears, at the lowest point in the arc of the pendulum, one that is swinging away from the two-state solution into a known unknown: an apartheid Israel. How this new "one-state" option will be transformed into a solution that provides freedom and security for all remains to be seen.

    Israeli partner Yossi Alpher adds this:


    We are ceasing publication for reasons involving fatigue--on a number of fronts. First, there is donor fatigue. Why, donors ask, should we continue to support a Middle East dialogue project that not only has not made peace, but cannot "prove" to our satisfaction--especially at a time of revolution and violence throughout the region--that it has indeed raised the level of civilized discussion? Why fight the Israeli right-wing campaign against European and American state funding and the Palestinian campaign against "normalization"?

    These last two negative developments also reflect local fatigue. There is no peace process and no prospect of one. Informal "track II" dialogue--bitterlemons might be described as a "virtual" track II--is declining. Here and there, writers from the region who used to favor us with their ideas and articles are now begging off, undoubtedly deterred by the revolutionary rise of intolerant political forces in their countries or neighborhood.





    About Philip Weiss
    Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.



    The conditions needed for a one state solution to work is just not there right now. Both party, especially Israel, are unwilling to compromise to ensure that a mutual agreement is reached. Until the Israeli government stop massive infrastructure development in occupied Palestine, I don't think the Palestine should be willing to seat and talk.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 30, 2012 11:06 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]realifedad said[/cite] LIL'AIPAC, your spamming has been reported,


    WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR DIALOG ON THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION BELOW












    Read this from Mondoweiss about this topic


    Two-stater says the reality has shifted to one apartheid state


    Here is another sign of the end of the two-state paradigm in the minds of those who were engaged in building two states. The dialogue project, bitterlemons, is closing down. From the two statements below, you can see that Palestinian intellectuals are growing increasingly resentful of normalization efforts, and that the hope that some felt around the two-state solution has drained away, including from European sponsors. (Thanks to Paul Mutter).

    Palestinian partner Ghassan Khatib, formerly of the P.A., says this:


    In the foreword to "The Best of Bitterlemons" compilation published in 2007, I noted that we rarely had trouble recruiting writers. Despite the feeling among many in the Arab world that contact with Israelis is tantamount to accepting Israel's occupation, seldom did authors decline an invitation. Lately, we have observed that this has changed, that even once-forthcoming Palestinians are less interested in sharing ideas with Israelis just across the way. Still, we have been able to present the voices of security chiefs and political prisoners, military generals and farmers losing land, spokespersons for armed groups and peaceniks in an equal and fair manner--rather differently than the situation on the ground.

    Nevertheless, this achievement is bittersweet as the scenery around us grows ever more dark and uncertain. Two decades after the signing of the Declaration of Principles that many hoped would usher in the creation of a Palestinian state and independence, freedom and security, Palestinians and Israelis are barely conversational. The structures created by those agreements have atrophied, corrupted by an increasing imbalance in the Palestinian relationship with Israel. Every day, there is new word of land confiscations, arrests, demolitions, and legislative maneuvers to solidify Israel's control. Israel's political leaders are beholden to a tide of right-wing sentiment and Palestinian leaders are made to appear ever-smaller in their shrinking spheres of control.

    We are now, it appears, at the lowest point in the arc of the pendulum, one that is swinging away from the two-state solution into a known unknown: an apartheid Israel. How this new "one-state" option will be transformed into a solution that provides freedom and security for all remains to be seen.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    LIL'AIPAC, your continued spamming has been reported again, DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH RESPONDING TO ON TOPIC POINTS FROM JEWISH WRITERS ?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 30, 2012 11:14 PM GMT
    realifedad said[quote][cite]realifedad said[/cite] LIL'AIPAC, your spamming has been reported,


    WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR DIALOG ON THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION BELOW












    Read this from Mondoweiss about this topic


    Two-stater says the reality has shifted to one apartheid state


    Here is another sign of the end of the two-state paradigm in the minds of those who were engaged in building two states. The dialogue project, bitterlemons, is closing down. From the two statements below, you can see that Palestinian intellectuals are growing increasingly resentful of normalization efforts, and that the hope that some felt around the two-state solution has drained away, including from European sponsors. (Thanks to Paul Mutter).

    Palestinian partner Ghassan Khatib, formerly of the P.A., says this:


    In the foreword to "The Best of Bitterlemons" compilation published in 2007, I noted that we rarely had trouble recruiting writers. Despite the feeling among many in the Arab world that contact with Israelis is tantamount to accepting Israel's occupation, seldom did authors decline an invitation. Lately, we have observed that this has changed, that even once-forthcoming Palestinians are less interested in sharing ideas with Israelis just across the way. Still, we have been able to present the voices of security chiefs and political prisoners, military generals and farmers losing land, spokespersons for armed groups and peaceniks in an equal and fair manner--rather differently than the situation on the ground.

    Nevertheless, this achievement is bittersweet as the scenery around us grows ever more dark and uncertain. Two decades after the signing of the Declaration of Principles that many hoped would usher in the creation of a Palestinian state and independence, freedom and security, Palestinians and Israelis are barely conversational. The structures created by those agreements have atrophied, corrupted by an increasing imbalance in the Palestinian relationship with Israel. Every day, there is new word of land confiscations, arrests, demolitions, and legislative maneuvers to solidify Israel's control. Israel's political leaders are beholden to a tide of right-wing sentiment and Palestinian leaders are made to appear ever-smaller in their shrinking spheres of control.

    We are now, it appears, at the lowest point in the arc of the pendulum, one that is swinging away from the two-state solution into a known unknown: an apartheid Israel. How this new "one-state" option will be transformed into a solution that provides freedom and security for all remains to be seen.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    LIL'AIPAC, your continued spamming has been reported again, DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH RESPONDING TO ON TOPIC POINTS FROM JEWISH WRITERS ?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 30, 2012 11:16 PM GMT
    O5vx saidBoth party, especially Israel, are unwilling to compromise to ensure that a mutual agreement is reached.

    Recommended reading:

    The two-state solution:
    Revisiting the Clinton Compromise Parameters

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2271313
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 30, 2012 11:25 PM GMT
    The conditions needed for a one state solution to work is just not there right now. Both party, especially Israel, are unwilling to compromise to ensure that a mutual agreement is reached. Until the Israeli government stop massive infrastructure development in occupied Palestine, I don't think the Palestine should be willing to seat and talk.


    Well the apologists like LIL'AIPAC always tell us that the Settlements aren't a problem because the land doesn't belong to Palestinians untill they have an agreement with Israel, The Pals try talking and the Israeli's move the 'goal post' again in one way or another or at least by adding more settlements.

    The far right leadership insists on making this an unwinable catch 22 for he pals, but in truth they're doing the same thing to themselves, because if they keep it up with building settlements there will soon be no opportunity left for a viable palestinian state. Then What will they do ? Send them to Jordan as Lil'AIPAC and his father thinks they belong anyways ? Pals are growing fast and when they get a vote it will change that 'jewish character' that Israel's Zionist Zealots are so concerned about.


    LIL'AIPAC espouses to his Professor father Raoul Kopelman's theory that "Why do Palestinians need a second homeland" in that article he wrote which is available by googling it, he states that Palestinians homeland is in Jordan on the East side of the Jordan River, not on the West Bank or in East Jerusalem.

    These guys cannot have it both ways, either they are for settlements and a one state solution or they will go along with stopping the settlements so a two state solution is possible, Settlement building is fast taking away the two state solution
  • O5vx

    Posts: 3154

    Aug 30, 2012 11:36 PM GMT
    realifedad said The conditions needed for a one state solution to work is just not there right now. Both party, especially Israel, are unwilling to compromise to ensure that a mutual agreement is reached. Until the Israeli government stop massive infrastructure development in occupied Palestine, I don't think the Palestine should be willing to seat and talk.


    Well the apologists like LIL'AIPAC always tell us that the Settlements aren't a problem because the land doesn't belong to Palestinians untill they have an agreement with Israel, The Pals try talking and the Israeli's move the 'goal post' again in one way or another or at least by adding more settlements.

    The far right leadership insists on making this an unwinable catch 22 for he pals, but in truth they're doing the same thing to themselves, because if they keep it up with building settlements there will soon be no opportunity left for a viable palestinian state. Then What will they do ? Send them to Jordan as Lil'AIPAC and his father thinks they belong anyways ? Pals are growing fast and when they get a vote it will change that 'jewish character' that Israel's Zionist Zealots are so concerned about.


    LIL'AIPAC espouses to his Professor father Raoul Kopelman's theory that "Why do Palestinians need a second homeland" in that article he wrote which is available by googling it, he states that Palestinians homeland is in Jordan on the East side of the Jordan River, not on the West Bank or in East Jerusalem.

    These guys cannot have it both ways, either they are for settlements and a one state solution or they will go along with stopping the settlements so a two state solution is possible, Settlement building is fast taking away the two state solution


    I believe once settlement is halted, we can then began to talk about having a two state solution. Until then, nothing is workable. Israel has made it clear that it can not accept a situation where non Jewish people will become the majority. They want a Jewish state and that is preventing further negotiation
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 30, 2012 11:53 PM GMT
    O5vx saidI believe once settlement is halted, we can then began to talk about having a two state solution. Until then, nothing is workable. Israel has made it clear that it can not accept a situation where non Jewish people will become the majority. They want a Jewish state and that is preventing further negotiation

    How odd. You tell us there can't be any Jews living in Judea & Samaria... only to then say that Israel's desire for a Jewish state (i.e. self-determination) is what prevents negotiations - rather than Arabs opposing any Jews living in a future Arab Palestine?

    Are you sure it isn't the PA repeatedly saying "no to everything" (to quote Clinton about Arafat) and walking out of negotiations (and re-turning to violence) which "prevents negotiations"?

    It's quite backwards, too. If Jewish construction is such a problem, then it is all the more reason to stick with and complete the negotiation.

    Yet we saw that Israel's 10-month moratorium on construction didn't bring the PA back to the negotiating table.
    I submit then that there is something else that is holding up negotiations and peace.

    Do you think it could be the fact that 1/3rd of the Palestinian Arabs are violently opposed to any compromise and are categorically opposed to making peace, with perhaps another 1/3rd also sharing that position even if less vehemently?
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    Aug 31, 2012 12:15 AM GMT
    Wolverine4 said
    O5vx saidI believe once settlement is halted, we can then began to talk about having a two state solution. Until then, nothing is workable. Israel has made it clear that it can not accept a situation where non Jewish people will become the majority. They want a Jewish state and that is preventing further negotiation

    How odd. You tell us there can't be any Jews living in Judea & Samaria... only to then say that Israel's desire for a Jewish state (i.e. self-determination) is what prevents negotiations - rather than Arabs opposing any Jews living in a future Arab Palestine?

    Are you sure it isn't the PA repeatedly saying "no to everything" (to quote Clinton about Arafat) and walking out of negotiations (and re-turning to violence) which "prevents negotiations"?

    It's quite backwards, too. If Jewish construction is such a problem, then it is all the more reason to stick with and complete the negotiation.

    Yet we saw that Israel's 10-month moratorium on construction didn't bring the PA back to the negotiating table.
    I submit then that there is something else that is holding up negotiations and peace.

    Do you think it could be the fact that 1/3rd of the Palestinian Arabs are violently opposed to any compromise and are categorically opposed to making peace, with perhaps another 1/3rd also sharing that position even if less vehemently?


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    Lots of PROPAGANDA UP IN HERE, and like I mentioned above >


    "Well the apologists like LIL'AIPAC always tell us that the Settlements aren't a problem because the land doesn't belong to Palestinians untill they have an agreement with Israel, The Pals try talking and the Israeli's move the 'goal post' again in one way or another or at least by adding more settlements."


    Purhaps LIL'AIPAC would tell us why it is so important for Israels Zionist Leadership to create the problem of Settlements if they on the other hand claim to be intent on creating a scenerio condusive to a two state solution ? Yet he claims its the Pals who have this backwards. by saying >>>>>>"It's quite backwards, too. If Jewish construction is such a problem, then it is all the more reason to stick with and complete the negotiation."

    This is what I was getting at above by the Far Right Zionist leadership creating a nearly impossible catch 22, then blaiming their vicitims. Its is the Zionist Zealots going against international laws against building settlements for their own people to move onto occupied land. There is nothing about Palestinians actions that brings that law breaking about, the Pals arethe victims in it, To twist this land theft into a problem of the Pals by their refusing to sit down until the theft stops is quite despotic.

    NO OTHER SITUATION EXISTS IN THE WORLD OF JUSTICE WHERE THE THEIF GETS AWAY WITH DEMANDING BEFORE A JUDGE THAT THEIR VICTIMS NEGOTIATE AN END TO THE THEIVERY BY SAYING THAT IF THEY TALK TO ME I'LL STOP STEALING. LMAO, WHERE DOES IT WORK LIKE THAT ? ONLY IN A ONE SIDED ZIONIST'S MIND WHO HAS OTHER MOTIVES FOR THE CONTINUED THEIVERY


    So LIL'AIPAC, would ISRAEL BE HARMED BY STOPPING THE SETTLEMENTS FOR THE SAKE OF THE TWO STATE SOLUTION ?


    IF IT COULD STOP FOR TEN MONTHS, WHAT WAS THE HIDDEN PURPOSE OF GOING BACK TO THE SETTLEMENT BUILDING ?

    (my understanding was that the only construction that stopped during that ten months was goverhment building, not the settlement building by private contractors, so that too was to large degree just more PROPAGANDA)
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    Aug 31, 2012 5:46 AM GMT
    How odd that after all the lip service to "international law" we get this:

    AyaTrollah pouncer> The Palestinians support overwhelmingly the two-state consensus

    "Consensus"? Should we also settle for the "consensus" on gay rights?
    What would the vote be at the UN... 150 against and 30 for?

    Furthermore it's odd that the Palestinians on RJ - and their Iranian and other supporters - are overwhelmingly against a two-state solution. To the point that they prefer war forever over any compromise.
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    Aug 31, 2012 6:58 AM GMT
    O5vx said
    realifedad said The conditions needed for a one state solution to work is just not there right now. Both party, especially Israel, are unwilling to compromise to ensure that a mutual agreement is reached. Until the Israeli government stop massive infrastructure development in occupied Palestine, I don't think the Palestine should be willing to seat and talk.


    Well the apologists like LIL'AIPAC always tell us that the Settlements aren't a problem because the land doesn't belong to Palestinians untill they have an agreement with Israel, The Pals try talking and the Israeli's move the 'goal post' again in one way or another or at least by adding more settlements.

    The far right leadership insists on making this an unwinable catch 22 for he pals, but in truth they're doing the same thing to themselves, because if they keep it up with building settlements there will soon be no opportunity left for a viable palestinian state. Then What will they do ? Send them to Jordan as Lil'AIPAC and his father thinks they belong anyways ? Pals are growing fast and when they get a vote it will change that 'jewish character' that Israel's Zionist Zealots are so concerned about.


    LIL'AIPAC espouses to his Professor father Raoul Kopelman's theory that "Why do Palestinians need a second homeland" in that article he wrote which is available by googling it, he states that Palestinians homeland is in Jordan on the East side of the Jordan River, not on the West Bank or in East Jerusalem.

    These guys cannot have it both ways, either they are for settlements and a one state solution or they will go along with stopping the settlements so a two state solution is possible, Settlement building is fast taking away the two state solution


    I believe once settlement is halted, we can then began to talk about having a two state solution. Until then, nothing is workable. Israel has made it clear that it can not accept a situation where non Jewish people will become the majority. They want a Jewish state and that is preventing further negotiation

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    Well pouncer, a typical blow off, is all that was returned, but Let LIL'AIPAC talk to his own propaganda


    I don't know about you but O5vx sure makes a good point, "ONCE THE SETTLEMENT IS HALTED, WE CAN THEN BEGIN TO TALK ABOUT HAVING TWO STATE SOLUTION"

    LIL'AIPAC doesn't want to address that its settlement building is the main block to a Palestinian state, As all Zionist Zealots they want to play like its the Pals fault for not wanting to put up with the settlements against international law and waiting for the settlements to stop to talk, Its Quite plain that Israel wants settlement building more than an agreemet for peace
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    Sep 01, 2012 1:48 AM GMT
    O5vx saidI believe once settlement is halted, we can then began to talk about having a two state solution.

    Except that talks have already begun, so why suddenly stop them over this pretense?
    Is this cover for another, deeper problem?
    That a large segment of the Palestinian Arabs are against making peace?
    (Especially if you count those outside of the disputed territories?)

    As I've repeatedly noted, most of the construction is in villages that will remain part of Israel in a two-state solution (and if a so-called "one-state 'solution'" is advocated, then it shouldn't be a big deal in the first place). Any construction in areas that will be ceded to the PA is of benefit to the Palestinians (e.g. it could be used to house refugees/descendants who choose to immigrate).

    Given that making peace will stop the "settlements" (and actually benefit in many other ways), it becomes clear that those who say the above prioritize "halting settlements" over making peace.
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    Sep 01, 2012 3:02 AM GMT
    Pouncer said
    RLD saidWell pouncer, a typical blow off, is all that was returned, but Let LIL'AIPAC talk to his own propaganda


    I don't know about you but O5vx sure makes a good point, "ONCE THE SETTLEMENT IS HALTED, WE CAN THEN BEGIN TO TALK ABOUT HAVING TWO STATE SOLUTION"


    Agreed. The power of three is greater than the power of one, isn't it?
    As usual, I think we can consider the motion passed, and the debate adjourned.


    ____________________________________________________


    Note this Pouncer, God this LIL'AIPAC is truely a Piece of Work !!

    He has at least slowed down on the repeats of his same propaganda posts, but still refuses to address this member of the "GOYIM", LOL !!

    Now get this >> LIL'AIPAC writes >>O5vx saidI believe once settlement is halted, we can then began to talk about having a two state solution.

    Except that talks have already begun, so why suddenly stop them over this pretense?
    Is this cover for another, deeper problem?
    That a large segment of the Palestinian Arabs are against making peace?

    Given that making peace will stop the "settlements" (and actually benefit in many other ways), it becomes clear that those who say the above prioritize "halting settlements" over making peace."

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    ONLY IN A 'I AM ALWAYS RIGHT AS A ISRAELI ZIONIST AND WHEN I AM WRONG I AM STILL RIGHT BECAUSE I AM ONE OF THE CHOSEN ISRAELI ZIONIST's SO DO YOUR "GOYIM" DUTY TO WE ZIONISTS AND ACCEPT YOUR ASS FUCKING AS GRACIOUSLY AS YOU CAN'. LOL


    Put another way, LIL'AIPAC is trying to tell us that in ZIONIST ISRAEL'S CASE they are like a theif standing before a judge making demands that the vicitims of his thievery must negotiate the secession of his theivery or it will continue, and only once the victims of his theivery negotiate will he return some portions stolen, that only he may decide he will return. With the caviat that he may ask for more than he already has stolen.

    DOES THE READER GET THE POINT ?


    WHERE IN THE WORLD BUT IN A GOD DAMN ONE SIDED ZIONISTS WORLD DOES JUSTICE WORK IN SUCH A WAY ?
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    Sep 01, 2012 2:54 PM GMT
    Note how AyaTrollah pouncer continues to babble and whine, but doesn't actually respond or address what I said:

    Talks had already begun, so why suddenly stop them over this pretense?

    ATp> The PLO entered into seven long, gormless years of "peace making" in 1993

    During which it made no tangible concessions, "said no to everything" at the Clinton summit and then re-turned to violence and terrorism.

    Do you really think that Arafat rejected the Clinton compromise parameters - which would have established an independent, sovereign and internationally recognized Palestinian Arab state on a net 97% of the territories, contiguous in the West Bank, including the Arab neighborhoods of eastern Jerusalem, with a so-called "right of return" to the nascent state and a $30 Billion fund to compensate the Arab refugees/descendants - because of a disagreement over about 60 square miles mostly inhabited by Jews?


    Is this cover for another, deeper problem?
    That a large segment of the Palestinian Arabs are against making peace?
    (Especially if you count those outside of the disputed territories?)


    ATp> ?


    Most of the construction is in villages that will remain part of Israel in a two-state solution (and if a so-called "one-state 'solution'" is advocated, then it shouldn't be a big deal in the first place). Any construction in areas that will be ceded to the PA is of benefit to the Palestinians (e.g. it could be used to house refugees/descendants who choose to immigrate).

    ATp> ?


    Given that making peace will stop the "settlements" (and actually benefit in many other ways), it becomes clear that those who say the above prioritize "halting settlements" over making peace.

    ATp> ?
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    Sep 01, 2012 3:17 PM GMT
    Put another way, LIL'AIPAC is trying to tell us that in ZIONIST ISRAEL'S CASE they are like a theif standing before a judge making demands that the vicitims of his thievery must negotiate the secession of his theivery or it will continue, and only once the victims of his theivery negotiate will he return some portions stolen, that only he may decide he will return. With the caviat that he may ask for more than he already has stolen.




    Read the excuses for continueing the Settlement building, then consider my statement above and see which makes more sense.

    SETTLEMENTS ARE THEFT OF PALESTINIAN HOMELAND AS DESIGNATED BY THE UN GREEN LINES SET IN 1967

    WHEN THEIVES ARE STEALING, THE ONUS IS USUALLY ON THEM TO STOP THE THEFT NOT THEIR VICTIMS TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE THEIF TO END HIS THIEVING.


    ONLY IN A ZIONISTS "I'M ONE OF THE PRIVILEGED CHOSEN" WORLD OF THOUGHT DOES SUCH ONE SIDED MENTALITY EXIST. SEE HOW FAR THE REST OF US WOULD GET IN THE REAL WORLD WITH SUCH GOD DAMN REVERSE THINKING.