What is it about feminity that turns you off so much?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 7:29 PM GMT
    Is it the way someone looks?

    Is it the way someone acts? The way they speak? Their choices of words?

    Their voice? The way they smell? maybe what they like? (like Madonna, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift....blah blah )

    Like, would you date a guy who looks super masculine but act really fem or vice versa and stuff?

    Discuss!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 7:31 PM GMT
    Madame_Pele said
    Discuss!


    Or not. Tired old topic.
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Aug 29, 2012 7:32 PM GMT
    yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no, no
    because I am free to like what I like and not like what I don't like
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 7:36 PM GMT
    I'm not turned off by femininity in general, actual women aside, I don't really mind at all. It's the sour attitudes of fem and masc men make them look bad. I don't point fingers and say all feminine men are flamers, like not all masculine men can fix a car. Not all people see the definition of feminine and masculine the same under such generalized terms. I've dated a couple feminine guys, and my only dislike was their negativity, but that is an undercurrent that can be found in anyone's life. I do have a slight preference for more masculine men, but only cause I need the security of knowing and seeing that a guy will hold me back; when I'm not holding him when he needs it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 7:45 PM GMT
    Madame_Pele saidIs it the way someone looks?

    Is it the way someone acts? The way they speak? Their choices of words?

    Their voice? The way they smell? maybe what they like? (like Madonna, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift....blah blah )

    Like, would you date a guy who looks super masculine but act really fem or vice versa and stuff?

    Discuss!


    Hmn... Okay. Good question!

    What is it about femininity in a male that seems to turn me off, personally. Well, as strange as this may sound, I've been conditioned to think that males should have a certain kind of demeanor and countenance that make them exclusively what they are as men. The frequency which males give off are unique to them. When they imitate or portend to the idea of incorporating the complete opposite, feminine, wavelength, it's confusing, makes my brow furrow, and repels me. I cannot take a man seriously in that situation, for whatever the reason may be-- social conditioning or what have you.

    Now, that said, I hate it to break it to everyone but NOT EVERYTHING IS SO BLACK AND WHITE! icon_biggrin.gif

    We are varying degrees of masculinity and femininity. The same can be said about our sexual preferences. It's not an on or off switch you can flick, it isn't as simple as "you are masculine" or "you are not masculine". Even the most yippy/nelly/campy of homosexuals will exhibit this trait.

    That said, there is also something I am equally repelled by: people playing roles. Not just the whole "omg so I totally bought this chanel perfume" but also "yeah i'm str8 actin', laid back, man's man." WTF is that? A "man's man?" No. I want a person, not an actor, not a role, not a facilitator, not a mask, a charade or a facade. A person is rarely ever -just- going to be the epitome of masculinity and if they honestly are so insecure/preoccupied with trying to achieve this role, they honestly are not worth my time of day.

    I want a person who is capable of strength, courage, and determination as much as I am interesting in finding someone of weakness, of fear, of vulnerability because, in reality, we are all of these things. We are both Yin and Yang to varying degrees.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 8:28 PM GMT
    showme said
    Madame_Pele said
    Discuss!


    Or not. Tired old topic.


    maybe for the veterans. Not for the n0obies though
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Aug 29, 2012 8:29 PM GMT
    I believe to some extent, you are a product of your environment. For instance, you can see a big difference in how guys act, in the bars they go to. So bars are heavy drag queen bars, and sometimes you will find some very feminine acting men in these bars. And then you go to leather bars and you will find some very masculine acting men. Then you go to some bars that lie somewhere in between, and you will find a bit of everything, but I can honestly say that you keep those butch guys around flamers and pretty soon he'll start being a flamer too. As for leather, well some guy try to butch it up, but never really quite achieve that level of masculinity you find in some leather bars (unless they refrain from talking completely).
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 8:33 PM GMT
    AMoonHawk saidI believe to some extent, you are a product of your environment. For instance, you can see a big difference in how guys act, in the bars they go to. So bars are heavy drag queen bars, and sometimes you will find some very feminine acting men in these bars. And then you go to leather bars and you will find some very masculine acting men. Then you go to some bars that lie somewhere in between, and you will find a bit of everything, but I can honestly say that you keep those butch guys around flamers and pretty soon he'll start being a flamer too. As for leather, well some guy try to butch it up, but never really quite achieve that level of masculinity you find in some leather bars (unless they refrain from talking completely).


    Good point. Do you think that the leather and stuff are just a means of masquerading the feminity within? In the sense that they are really fem internally but they are just trying to act masculine to appear more sexually appealing to other gay guys? Because most of us do not find fem attractive.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 8:34 PM GMT
    Madame_Pele said
    showme said
    Madame_Pele said
    Discuss!


    Or not. Tired old topic.


    maybe for the veterans. Not for the n0obies though


    Maybe we should change the topic to why no white guys like Asians or Blacks. Or why you'll be forever alone if you don't have a husband by the time you're 20.icon_rolleyes.gif


    As you can tell I'm sick of this topic.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 8:37 PM GMT
    showme said
    Madame_Pele said
    showme said
    Madame_Pele said
    Discuss!


    Or not. Tired old topic.


    maybe for the veterans. Not for the n0obies though


    Maybe we should change the topic to why no white guys like Asians or Blacks. Or why you'll be forever alone if you don't have a husband by the time you're 20.icon_rolleyes.gif


    As you can tell I'm sick of this topic.


    Well, then don't read it. Nobody's forcing ya to click on the thread link. It's called control. You should try that sexy ;)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 8:40 PM GMT
    I'm not turned off by fem guys but I have a stronger attraction to masculine guys. Have you ever seen a porno with two fem twinks making out, doing oral, and then a macho guy fucks them both? Yeah.

    However the overly fem BITCHY ones who insult other people most of their time are annoying as fuck and not attractive at all...they're just girls who aren't nice and they have no titts either.
  • FuriousGeorge

    Posts: 181

    Aug 29, 2012 8:51 PM GMT
    I think a large part of my attractions is my perception of strength. Not how many bench press reps you can do, mind you, but rather how you carry yourself and how you deal with hardship and stress. You can exude your strength both through your appearance and in how you can communicate; please note that this allows for a wide variety of masculine men, so don't think I'm narrowly defining here. I see this exhibition of strength as the traditional definition of masculinity.

    Feminine behavior, whether it's fair or not, does not convey strength to me. I see superficiality, fickleness, and over-dependence. So to answer your question, yes, all of those factors play into my perception of another man's inner strength (okay, their music choices aren't a big deal, but it helps if they like rock). I would never tell someone else how they need to seem to others, but I can't lie: how they act is going to trigger a gut reaction from me in how likely I am to want to be around them.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 8:52 PM GMT
    I think Masculine males are just as bitchy as the Feminine types. They just express it in different ways.

    First of all, what is "bitchiness"? An irrational and unprovoked anger expressed through dramatic mannerisms or behavior or simply the irrational and unprovoked anger itself? If so, it's really all the same to me.

    Masculine males who bitch about their dislike for feminine men and why they behave the way they do are still bitching. I get the fact there are those who don't find certain people their cup of tea but not every nelly is bitchy. Just the same, not every masculine male is "laid back" nor can they be "str8 actin." icon_smile.gif Orientation is not imbued with personality traits. I've met effeminate straight men.

    I think people like to oversimplify personalities with stereotypes which is what leads us into this deranged nonsense to begin with. I also think that their aversion to effeminate comes from a long-bred hatred of the female body and the role (a.k.a misogyny). It's also why I think some people confuse "roles" in sex with gay/bi men with "gender role" (e.g. tops are the men, bottoms are the women).

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:00 PM GMT
    i do not mind a guy who is femmey. I do not like femme smells and colors and clothing. I don't care if a guy lisps a little.. especially if he has a beard. I think most men who don't like femm guys i think just hone in some femme guys can be the bitchiest.. meanest assholes out there... and take on Female stereotypes.. such as not working for what they have or gossiping.. or being superficial. All Femm guys aren't like that. I've met some femm guys who can fix a car.. i can't fix a fucking car.. i hate them..

    Some femm guys can be just as annoying as some "butch" guys who have no intellect.. they are boring.. listen to FM radio and you can't talk about anything other than popular news culture or sports with them or they literally will start breaking down. Smoke will rise from their arm pits and knees and they will shut down.

    I like balance. And someone is just naturally whatever they are. Is that much to ask?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:01 PM GMT
    Trollileo saidI think I'm afraid of what I don't understand. I've always been "straight acting" and I don't exactly look gay so I don't understand why others aren't like me. It's the same reason homophobia exists.

    There. I said it.


    Like
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:01 PM GMT
    ParadiseLost saidI think Masculine males are just as bitchy as the Feminine types. They just express it in different ways.

    First of all, what is "bitchiness"? An irrational and unprovoked anger expressed through dramatic mannerisms or behavior or simply the irrational and unprovoked anger itself? If so, it's really all the same to me.

    Masculine males who bitch about their dislike for feminine men and why they behave the way they do are still bitching. I get the fact there are those who don't find certain people their cup of tea but not every nelly is bitchy. Just the same, not every masculine male is "laid back" nor can they be "str8 actin." icon_smile.gif Orientation is not imbued with personality traits. I've met effeminate straight men.

    I think people like to oversimplify personalities with stereotypes which is what leads us into this deranged nonsense to begin with. I also think that their aversion to effeminate comes from a long-bred hatred of the female body and the role (a.k.a misogyny). It's also why I think some people confuse "roles" in sex with gay/bi men with "gender role" (e.g. tops are the men, bottoms are the women).



    Totally agree with all of this. Second time today you have said verbatim everything i normally think.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:03 PM GMT
    Recap / summary so far:

    It seems that some guys don't see feminity as a problem, but rather, the negativity that goes with being fem, i.e., bitchiness, that seems to be the major reason as a sexual turn-off.
  • FuriousGeorge

    Posts: 181

    Aug 29, 2012 9:05 PM GMT
    ParadiseLost saidI think Masculine males are just as bitchy as the Feminine types. They just express it in different ways.

    First of all, what is "bitchiness"? An irrational and unprovoked anger expressed through dramatic mannerisms or behavior or simply the irrational and unprovoked anger itself? If so, it's really all the same to me.

    Masculine males who bitch about their dislike for feminine men and why they behave the way they do are still bitching. I get the fact there are those who don't find certain people their cup of tea but not every nelly is bitchy. Just the same, not every masculine male is "laid back" nor can they be "str8 actin." icon_smile.gif Orientation is not imbued with personality traits. I've met effeminate straight men.

    I think people like to oversimplify personalities with stereotypes which is what leads us into this deranged nonsense to begin with. I also think that their aversion to effeminate comes from a long-bred hatred of the female body and the role (a.k.a misogyny). It's also why I think some people confuse "roles" in sex with gay/bi men with "gender role" (e.g. tops are the men, bottoms are the women).



    It's interesting, I agree with most of the points you made, but I'm not convinced it can all be traced back to misogyny. How would you apply your theory to my definition, in which I tried to leave out the concept of gender roles? I honestly try to hold both gay and straight men and women to the same standard for "liking" them. Really, I'm just looking for them to act like adults, and there's something about male femininity that I find ... childish.

    Aha! Maybe there's something to that. Has femininity in modern Western society become too overlapped with childish behavior? Think about it. The girliest girls you can think of are bratty, loud, and demanding. Maybe the whole concept of femininity is evolving into something distasteful.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:06 PM GMT
    Madame_Pele saidRecap / summary so far:

    It seems that some guys don't see feminity as a problem, but rather, the negativity that goes with being fem, i.e., bitchiness, that seems to be the major reason as a sexual turn-off.


    and to further add.. i will be willing to bet that Femm guys who are bitchy are only bitchy because they feel they have to be because they are always on the defensive when it comes to men who don't like femms. (i like two m's). So bitchy queens.. let down your guard.. stop attacking people.. being "sassy" doesn't mean you have to be an asshole...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:07 PM GMT
    voice. I can handle most other aspects of femininity... within reason.... but not a girly voice. "omg girllll" ---> boner killer :/

    I actually kind of like it when a big beefy manly guy admits he loves rihanna or likes chick flicks or something. it's humanizing and sweet. no one is 100% masculine all the time
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:09 PM GMT
    Trollileo saidI think I'm afraid of what I don't understand. I've always been "straight acting" and I don't exactly look gay so I don't understand why others aren't like me. It's the same reason homophobia exists.

    There. I said it.


    Astute observation. ;{O *Applauds* This is what is breeding the resistance or rejection by homosexuals.

    Let me put it to you this way, Pele. The gays, a number of them are clawing desperately to find some way to make sense of who and what they are as a group of people. They are a nationless, colorless, heterogeneous mixture of human beings. They do not come from a specific nation, culture, faith. It is a phenomenon that any human can be for biological and social reasons.

    For heterosexuals, one never needed to define what they were for it was always understood and accepted as the 'correct' role to facilitate both biologically and socially. They were the void, the darkness. For homosexuals, they have been the deviants, the children born from the void of heterosexuality. They are the light but for light to be itself, it must have boundaries, separation to be understood, to be appreciated as something independent from heterosexuals. To define themselves, as beings separate of the sup-stratum, they must go certain lengths to define what they are not as much as they must define what they are.

    Are homosexuals muscle-bound masculine men? Are homosexuals limp-wristed effeminate men? What is a man, precisely? What is a homosexual supposed to be outside of one who desires the same sex? Don't tell me it's just an orientation because subconsciously it's not for many.

    We're all humans and we're VERY sensitive to conditioning and social cues-- especially the younger lot of us. They're impressionable minds. Tsk tsk.



  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:11 PM GMT
    FuriousGeorge said
    ParadiseLost saidI think Masculine males are just as bitchy as the Feminine types. They just express it in different ways.

    First of all, what is "bitchiness"? An irrational and unprovoked anger expressed through dramatic mannerisms or behavior or simply the irrational and unprovoked anger itself? If so, it's really all the same to me.

    Masculine males who bitch about their dislike for feminine men and why they behave the way they do are still bitching. I get the fact there are those who don't find certain people their cup of tea but not every nelly is bitchy. Just the same, not every masculine male is "laid back" nor can they be "str8 actin." icon_smile.gif Orientation is not imbued with personality traits. I've met effeminate straight men.

    I think people like to oversimplify personalities with stereotypes which is what leads us into this deranged nonsense to begin with. I also think that their aversion to effeminate comes from a long-bred hatred of the female body and the role (a.k.a misogyny). It's also why I think some people confuse "roles" in sex with gay/bi men with "gender role" (e.g. tops are the men, bottoms are the women).



    It's interesting, I agree with most of the points you made, but I'm not convinced it can all be traced back to misogyny. How would you apply your theory to my definition, in which I tried to leave out the concept of gender roles? I honestly try to hold both gay and straight men and women to the same standard for "liking" them. Really, I'm just looking for them to act like adults, and there's something about male femininity that I find ... childish.

    Aha! Maybe there's something to that. Has femininity in modern Western society become too overlapped with childish behavior? Think about it. The girliest girls you can think of are bratty, loud, and demanding. Maybe the whole concept of femininity is evolving into something distasteful.


    No.. it CAN be traced to Misogyny. We think of women as weak.. they are bitchy.. the manipulative.. they are superficial... they can do phsyical things.. when straights call a gay man a sissy.. they are saying he is a woman... and the worst thing is to be a man who has abandoned his masculinity, right? A man who takes cock is a woman..right? To be gay you must be a woman? and to be a woman who has sex makes you a whore? right? Gay men are whores and perverts. Right?

    All those lines of thinking go into femmephobic people. And it directly relates to misogyny and archaic ideas of women and their place as weak being who are merely for use as sex and baby machines.. nothing more.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:22 PM GMT
    FuriousGeorge said
    ParadiseLost saidI think Masculine males are just as bitchy as the Feminine types. They just express it in different ways.

    First of all, what is "bitchiness"? An irrational and unprovoked anger expressed through dramatic mannerisms or behavior or simply the irrational and unprovoked anger itself? If so, it's really all the same to me.

    Masculine males who bitch about their dislike for feminine men and why they behave the way they do are still bitching. I get the fact there are those who don't find certain people their cup of tea but not every nelly is bitchy. Just the same, not every masculine male is "laid back" nor can they be "str8 actin." icon_smile.gif Orientation is not imbued with personality traits. I've met effeminate straight men.

    I think people like to oversimplify personalities with stereotypes which is what leads us into this deranged nonsense to begin with. I also think that their aversion to effeminate comes from a long-bred hatred of the female body and the role (a.k.a misogyny). It's also why I think some people confuse "roles" in sex with gay/bi men with "gender role" (e.g. tops are the men, bottoms are the women).



    It's interesting, I agree with most of the points you made, but I'm not convinced it can all be traced back to misogyny. How would you apply your theory to my definition, in which I tried to leave out the concept of gender roles? I honestly try to hold both gay and straight men and women to the same standard for "liking" them. Really, I'm just looking for them to act like adults, and there's something about male femininity that I find ... childish.

    Aha! Maybe there's something to that. Has femininity in modern Western society become too overlapped with childish behavior? Think about it. The girliest girls you can think of are bratty, loud, and demanding. Maybe the whole concept of femininity is evolving into something distasteful.


    Perhaps you are onto something-- boys will be boys, the brutes flexing their wiry muscles and trying to prove something of themselves. Girls will be girls, trying to impress the guys with the looks and appearances.

    But, really, is that ALL there is when it comes to the gender roles? You know you're still being rather dismissive of what the female condition represents. Is Mother Theresa a "bitchy woman" because she's a woman? Was Mona Lisa the same way? Classical women of the art and age are quite different from today's generation, granted, but even today, not all women are the same way. Not all females are demanding, loud, and bratty. Not all masculine men are free of these characteristics (e.g. Prince Henry and perhaps drunkard rugby Irishmen at a pub).

    What about the gay men who are NOT sassy? Who are not bitchy? Who are not overly dramatic or involved but the quiet, slightly-effeminate, and shy boy? Are they attractive? Are they not? If you're answering "no" here, then it isn't about "attitude" alone, it's about appearance and what your expectations are based on one's sex and gender role.

    Also, did you know, people have different tolerances and understandings to gender roles? If one could put tolerance on a sliding scale, the most narrow of us would be 1-3 where as the most open minded would likely be a 1-11-- depending how sensitive/understanding they are to the gradients of masculinity/femininity just like there are different shades of grey between black and white.

    A 1 to 3 scale doesn't leave much room to define what "grey" is. A 1 to 5 scale does a slightly better job. A 1 to 7 scale is even more elaborate. Et cetera. Of course, just because one is "sensitive" to these things doesn't automatically mean they're going to be favorable automatically. For example, a person may be accepting to anyone who is a 2 to 3 on a 1 to 3 scale for masculinity. Likewise a man may be only receptive to males who make it passed 8 on a 1 to 11.

    It's rather a complex topic. icon_smile.gif
  • FuriousGeorge

    Posts: 181

    Aug 29, 2012 9:22 PM GMT
    JackKash said
    FuriousGeorge said
    ParadiseLost saidI think Masculine males are just as bitchy as the Feminine types. They just express it in different ways.

    First of all, what is "bitchiness"? An irrational and unprovoked anger expressed through dramatic mannerisms or behavior or simply the irrational and unprovoked anger itself? If so, it's really all the same to me.

    Masculine males who bitch about their dislike for feminine men and why they behave the way they do are still bitching. I get the fact there are those who don't find certain people their cup of tea but not every nelly is bitchy. Just the same, not every masculine male is "laid back" nor can they be "str8 actin." icon_smile.gif Orientation is not imbued with personality traits. I've met effeminate straight men.

    I think people like to oversimplify personalities with stereotypes which is what leads us into this deranged nonsense to begin with. I also think that their aversion to effeminate comes from a long-bred hatred of the female body and the role (a.k.a misogyny). It's also why I think some people confuse "roles" in sex with gay/bi men with "gender role" (e.g. tops are the men, bottoms are the women).



    It's interesting, I agree with most of the points you made, but I'm not convinced it can all be traced back to misogyny. How would you apply your theory to my definition, in which I tried to leave out the concept of gender roles? I honestly try to hold both gay and straight men and women to the same standard for "liking" them. Really, I'm just looking for them to act like adults, and there's something about male femininity that I find ... childish.

    Aha! Maybe there's something to that. Has femininity in modern Western society become too overlapped with childish behavior? Think about it. The girliest girls you can think of are bratty, loud, and demanding. Maybe the whole concept of femininity is evolving into something distasteful.


    No.. it CAN be traced to Misogyny. We think of women as weak.. they are bitchy.. the manipulative.. they are superficial... they can do phsyical things.. when straights call a gay man a sissy.. they are saying he is a woman... and the worst thing is to be a man who has abandoned his masculinity, right? A man who takes cock is a woman..right? To be gay you must be a woman? and to be a woman who has sex makes you a whore? right? Gay men are whores and perverts. Right?

    All those lines of thinking go into femmephobic people. And it directly relates to misogyny and archaic ideas of women and their place as weak being who are merely for use as sex and baby machines.. nothing more.



    I hear what you're saying, but you're also bluntly applying that across the board. I agree with you that people who say "yes" to all your rhetorical questions would be misogynistic, but not everyone's saying "yes" to those questions. It's not *completely* about women-hating for everyone. Let me put it another way. I have several women friends that I think are awesome. Then there are other women I can't stand because of all this bitchiness we're talking about. I would not call any of these women more feminine than the others, but there's definitely a difference. As others have said, it's not really about femininity; it's about childishness (bitchiness). In my opinion, the perception of femininity has in some ways started to overlap with childishness, and this is a really bad thing.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 29, 2012 9:27 PM GMT
    FuriousGeorge said
    JackKash said
    FuriousGeorge said
    ParadiseLost saidI think Masculine males are just as bitchy as the Feminine types. They just express it in different ways.

    First of all, what is "bitchiness"? An irrational and unprovoked anger expressed through dramatic mannerisms or behavior or simply the irrational and unprovoked anger itself? If so, it's really all the same to me.

    Masculine males who bitch about their dislike for feminine men and why they behave the way they do are still bitching. I get the fact there are those who don't find certain people their cup of tea but not every nelly is bitchy. Just the same, not every masculine male is "laid back" nor can they be "str8 actin." icon_smile.gif Orientation is not imbued with personality traits. I've met effeminate straight men.

    I think people like to oversimplify personalities with stereotypes which is what leads us into this deranged nonsense to begin with. I also think that their aversion to effeminate comes from a long-bred hatred of the female body and the role (a.k.a misogyny). It's also why I think some people confuse "roles" in sex with gay/bi men with "gender role" (e.g. tops are the men, bottoms are the women).



    It's interesting, I agree with most of the points you made, but I'm not convinced it can all be traced back to misogyny. How would you apply your theory to my definition, in which I tried to leave out the concept of gender roles? I honestly try to hold both gay and straight men and women to the same standard for "liking" them. Really, I'm just looking for them to act like adults, and there's something about male femininity that I find ... childish.

    Aha! Maybe there's something to that. Has femininity in modern Western society become too overlapped with childish behavior? Think about it. The girliest girls you can think of are bratty, loud, and demanding. Maybe the whole concept of femininity is evolving into something distasteful.


    No.. it CAN be traced to Misogyny. We think of women as weak.. they are bitchy.. the manipulative.. they are superficial... they can do phsyical things.. when straights call a gay man a sissy.. they are saying he is a woman... and the worst thing is to be a man who has abandoned his masculinity, right? A man who takes cock is a woman..right? To be gay you must be a woman? and to be a woman who has sex makes you a whore? right? Gay men are whores and perverts. Right?

    All those lines of thinking go into femmephobic people. And it directly relates to misogyny and archaic ideas of women and their place as weak being who are merely for use as sex and baby machines.. nothing more.



    I hear what you're saying, but you're also bluntly applying that across the board. I agree with you that people who say "yes" to all your rhetorical questions would be misogynistic, but not everyone's saying "yes" to those questions. It's not *completely* about women-hating for everyone. Let me put it another way. I have several women friends that I think are awesome. Then there are other women I can't stand because of all this bitchiness we're talking about. I would not call any of these women more feminine than the others, but there's definitely a difference. As others have said, it's not really about femininity; it's about childishness (bitchiness). In my opinion, the perception of femininity has in some ways started to overlap with childishness, and this is a really bad thing.


    I think what you are confusing is what were saying is it's rooted in misogyny.. sure you may like women.. love them... that doesn't mean you are a woman hater. That you are consciously saying.. Oh i hate women. It's just that is the root of that.