Zeitgeist

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    Aug 20, 2008 11:44 AM GMT
    Holy shit... I just finished watching it, after having planned to watch it for months now, I'm still in awe and I'm thankful that I finally did take the time to download and watch it.

    That was possibly the most compelling movie I have ever seen to date. If you haven't seen it, watch it - it's FREE (Get it here: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/). I strongly urge everybody to watch it. Even if you're republican. Especially if you're republican.

    I admit I started watching the movie with a great deal of skepticism, especially during Part II, about the 9/11 conspiracy. I generally relegate conspiracy theories as the delusions of neocons and hippies, ROFL. But the evidence presented really makes a whole lot of sense. The unexplainable collapse of WTC 7 was the clincher for me.

    The implications are staggering. I'm a liberal, very much so, and to a degree, I'm anarchistic. I do not trust governments or any large institutions (including organized religion), especially those founded and controlled by men who have brought us 2 world wars and some in a century where logically, warfare should be in decline and relegated to interactive media*.

    I'm idealistic, which is why the movie hit me so hard. I too have dreams of global unification, but NOT this way. Not under the thumbs of an elite group of pigs who have grown fat from deaths of millions.

    The one mantra repeated by 'conservative' (i.e. totalitarian dictators, bankers, racists, bible-thumpers, etc. LOL) leaders throughout the world also struck me: In order to have a society, you must have an enemy.

    Totally

    What

    the

    Fuck?

    That's so goddamn true, I can connect it immediately with all the major political/religious movements recently and down to the dawn of history that precluded mass slaughter. The Enemy: other nations, other religions, other races, men, women, gays, other political factions, and now... 'terrorists'.

    The Enemy = Excuses.

    'Divide and conquer' has never been so resonant. Because as cheesy as it may sound, we are more alike than we care to admit. Something that is more evident now that the internet is here. An example is me, ROFL. I'm filipino (predominantly malay-spanish-indian to be more precise, still non-white and thus subject to white supremacists hehe) and have never set foot outside the Philippines in my life, but am I that much different from any of you?

    This movie really awakens the revolutionary in you. I am a child of the internet generation, the one form of communication that has no borders and (at the moment) almost no arbitrary controls placed on it**. We are still free of the shackles that now hold down television and printed media.

    Again, WATCH IT. Especially guys around my age. If you're afraid of watching it because it offends a part of you (especially when it comes to faith), then I pity you. Hope that your own hands covering your own eyes doesn't slip and let you see something which will put your comfortable beliefs into question. icon_rolleyes.gif For those who have seen it, I'd like to hear your views on it. I have my own disagreements on it (which the movie encourages), for example, I believe Jesus did exist, though the current account of his life is highly embellished with myths like the Egyptian parallels posited by the movie***.

    This is OUR generation and I'm awake. (man I feel like I should be saying that while waving an AK-47, LOL).
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    Aug 20, 2008 11:50 AM GMT
    Side notes:

    *Ironically, Video games which should have been the safer outlet for violence is being castigated by the media as the ones precipitating real world violence when it is actually more like a pressure valve that lets off the instinctive need for violence. What they fail to mention is that Video games (or any other form of media that depicts violence) + abysmal standards of education is the reason, not video games alone. Gamer communities contain some of the most intelligent people that I know of in the internet. The interactivity develops critical thinking, something most other forms of media are suppressing.

    **China is an exception, but even the communist government can't totally restrict the internet, there are still workarounds if you know them, and a lot of us younger guys know them, as opposed to the relatively technologically inept older generation that controls the Chinese government.

    ***What's funny is that I went through a fascination of ancient Egypt and mythology stage in my younger years, and I knew most of what the movie was talking about - the Horus myth for instance and the Book of the Dead. But aside from the knowledge that Egypt was actually the first monotheistic empire in history (for a brief period under Akhenaten who worshipped - surprise surprise - the Sun) and the Gilgamesh epic (which is Sumerian anyway), it never occured to me to correlate Egyptian mythos with biblical scripture. Fascinating indeed.
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    Aug 20, 2008 1:32 PM GMT
    I watched it last year... changed my life - literally!
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    Aug 20, 2008 3:16 PM GMT
    jaydub saidI watched it last year... changed my life - literally!


    How so?
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    Aug 20, 2008 3:21 PM GMT
    Eric!

    Of all people, I wouldn't imagine YOU to be snowed by that collection of hogwash. Wow.
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    Aug 20, 2008 3:25 PM GMT
    jprichva saidEric!

    Of all people, I wouldn't imagine YOU to be snowed by that collection of hogwash. Wow.


    I was thinking the same thing, but avoided saying it.

    I watched a documentary on why the WTC towers collapsed. It was pretty straightforward from an engineering point of view why, no conspiracy theory was needed.

    Besides the 9/11 attacks was not the first attempt at trying to fly commercial jets into buildings. Algerians hijacked an Air France jet in the 1990's in order to crash it into the Eiffel tower, and a terrorist was caught in the Philippines trying to make bombs to blow up several airliners over the Pacific Ocean. The 9/11 hijackers were unfortunately successful.
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    Aug 20, 2008 3:52 PM GMT
    Oh, THE movie! Cause there's a bar in SF that's called Zeitgeist and it TOTALLY ROCKS! And they have the BEST burgers for $5!!!


    So, I guess I'll watch the movie now....
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    Aug 20, 2008 4:39 PM GMT
    I watched the movie last year. It is pretty eye opening.
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    Aug 20, 2008 5:06 PM GMT
    jprichva saidEric!

    Of all people, I wouldn't imagine YOU to be snowed by that collection of hogwash. Wow.


    LOL. Okay okay. The 9/11 conspiracy theory is still some of the more harder to swallow segments of the video.

    Still, why did the WTC 7 collapse? icon_confused.gif And so neatly at that? Being from another country, I have not been exposed to the media events in the US immediately before 9/11 though, so I can only take their deductions at face value.

    What I liked about it is that it's thought-provoking. The conjectures are farfetched for some. Like the pseudo attempt to linguistically link 'God's Sun' and 'God's Son' and my 'what the heck' moment when Horus was mentioned to have been killed by Typhon who is NOT an egyptian God but a greek monster! Though Set was in fact hellenized as Typhon by some, the battles between Horus and Set were already mentioned earlier. The similarities of Jesus and other prophets like Mithra and Apollonius is real enough but not in the uncanny way as depicted in the movie. And indeed the theory of Osiris (NOT Horus) being the origin of the Messiah/Mahdi myth is an old one.

    I've only started following up the claims of Part I. And I'm disheartened to see so many incongruities. For a movie debunking propaganda and religious hypocrisy, why is it engaging in obvious manipulation of facts?

    I guess... jeff and jonathan's right. It's hogwash. *sigh* Too good to be true. icon_sad.gif

    It did do one thing good though. Made me think of the recent world wars and the Banks behind them. Previously I haven't even thought about it. But it's pretty much true anyway. Politics isn't controlled by politicians, much less by the people but by megacorporations and banks that fund them. I wonder how far that control reaches to. icon_confused.gif



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    Aug 20, 2008 5:13 PM GMT
    Sedative said
    jprichva saidEric!

    Of all people, I wouldn't imagine YOU to be snowed by that collection of hogwash. Wow.

    Still, why did the WTC 7 collapse? icon_confused.gif And so neatly at that? Being from another country, I have not been exposed to the media events in the US immediately before 9/11 though, so I can only take their deductions at face value.

    To me, one of the more interesting pieces of information about WTC 7 came, not from a U.S. media source, but from BBC - which reported WTC 7 collapsing almost 20 minutes before it actually did.
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    Aug 20, 2008 5:25 PM GMT
    jaydub said
    Sedative said
    jprichva saidEric!

    Of all people, I wouldn't imagine YOU to be snowed by that collection of hogwash. Wow.

    Still, why did the WTC 7 collapse? icon_confused.gif And so neatly at that? Being from another country, I have not been exposed to the media events in the US immediately before 9/11 though, so I can only take their deductions at face value.

    To me, one of the more interesting pieces of information about WTC 7 came, not from a U.S. media source, but from BBC - which reported WTC 7 collapsing almost 20 minutes before it actually did.


    Whoo. The Brits have some explaining to do. icon_lol.gif

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    Aug 20, 2008 5:35 PM GMT
    Sedative says,

    It did do one thing good though. Made me think of the recent world wars and the Banks behind them. Previously I haven't even thought about it. But it's pretty much true anyway. Politics isn't controlled by politicians, much less by the people but by megacorporations and banks that fund them. I wonder how far that control reaches to.

    I consult for some of largest corporations and wealthiest individuals on this planet. If you know these organizations from the inside, then you know that there is no final rhyme or reason why organizations do what they do.

    Mostly, it is all just like this website. People roll along one way governed by inertia, and then something shakes it up and it goes another way for awhile.

    Conspiracy is really rare. It requires a huge level of charisma and control to achieve something truly big. There aren't more than twenty people in a generation who can pull it off.

    Most of the real evil actually does come from the literal zeitgeist. It is in the air and people just go along following the smell.

    Governments and corporations (apart from specific dirty deads) are given way to much credit.

    The only thing that stands between us and a total police state is disorganization and badly implemented I.T. Disorganization is really our friend.

    I mean, Eric, do you think anyone in the Pentagon has a plan? What about the Vatican? The White House? At best there are fragments of ideas and shards of thoughts on crackberries.

    Terry
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    Aug 20, 2008 6:14 PM GMT
    Still, crackberries, if launched on a railgun, can probably destroy a planet from a sufficient distance. LOL

    Even the most lame-assed plan if backed up by a military like that from America's can seriously fuck up other countries.

    Also, that's England. What about American politics and the sheer leverage megacorporations have on them? A system which makes even bill-passing almost at the mercy of the representative's financiers?

    I ask this, because the Philippines has the same hopelessly corrupt system. Though ours is more blatant. Politicians use every dirty trick just to get into power and stay in power. From wooing crackpot the-second-coming-of-jaysus megalomaniacs to secretly accepting bribes from companies (often multinational and often Chinese, don't ask me why, LOL).

    But yeah, I do agree. As I stated in my original post, I normally attribute conspiracy theories to neocons and hippies. And aside from my first impression right after watching the movie... this indeed disappoints on so many levels. icon_sad.gif

    If nothing else, at least this movie shakes the current zeitgeist for a bit. Though its foundation is more wishful thinking.

    It does strike a nerve in me, because though I do not fall for bullshit that easily, I am, admittedly, prejudiced towards governments, mass media, the wealthy elite, and religion.
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    Aug 20, 2008 9:01 PM GMT
    Eric,

    That's just hogwash. Please trust me. I have been doing this for 26 years (ugh.) There is no secret plan. There is no conspiracy. There are no illuminati. There are no international bankers.

    (you might not understand what that means, but it is what anti Semites used to use as code for Jews).

    You see, the world has REAL problems. For example, clean water is a real problem (in your country too) while Global Christmas Goose (Global Warming) is a marketing problem.

    Hysteria takes attention away from real problems (the way a magician distracts your attention) and focuses it on false ones.

    The absolute lack of understanding between the occidental and muslim worlds is a REAL problem. That problem is really exploited by merchants of hate to turn ordinary people (with families, children, etc.) into human bombs.

    The REAL problem being ignored allows it to grow into something HORRIFIC.

    This old world needs smart young men like you who are able to keep their eye-on-the-ball and filter out the rubbish. Your generation OUGHT to be better than mine at doing that.

    Big kiss to you,
    Terry
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    Aug 20, 2008 9:14 PM GMT
    I agree with Terry. I work in government, and trust me we are far too disorganized and screwed up to carry off a conspiracy. We are lucky to get the basics done properly!

    And the Pentagon? Hah, one of the worse bureaucracies in the world.

    Attacks like 9/11 are much more likely to be carried out by a very small group of people working in secret. The infighting between the CIA and FBI were partially to blame.
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    Aug 20, 2008 10:01 PM GMT
    Okay okay! icon_sad.gif

    I guess I'm just bummed that after finding the video that compelling it turns out to be a bunch of more lies. There's something rasputinish about it. LOL

    And yes, I do understand about the jews/bankers thing, since the fact that jews were traditionally bankers (the Rothschilds for example). Classic envy generating hate kind of thing.

    (Same thing happens here with the Chinese businessmen).

    *sigh sigh*

    I can't believe I fell for it. LOL
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Aug 20, 2008 10:11 PM GMT
    ursamajor said

    I mean, Eric, do you think anyone in the Pentagon has a plan?

    Terry


    There was a plan which achieved many of its goals:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

    especially:

    "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor"

    and look at the some of the people involved:

    After the election of George W. Bush in 2000, a number of PNAC's members or signatories were appointed to key positions within the President's administration:"

    Dick Cheney Vice President (2001-)

    Donald Rumsfeld Secretary of Defense (2001-2006)

    Paul Wolfowitz Deputy Secretary of Defense (2001-2005)

    I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby Chief of Staff for the Vice President (2001-2005)

    Richard Perle Chairman of the Board, Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee (2001-2003)

    John R. Bolton Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs (2001-2005), U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2005-2006)

    Randy Scheunemann Member of the U.S. Committee on NATO, Project on Transitional Democracies, International Republican Institute

    Elliott Abrams Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Democracy, Human Rights, and International Operations (2001–2002), Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Near East and North African Affairs (2002–2005), Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy (2005-) (all within the National Security Council)

    Richard Armitage Deputy Secretary of State (2001-2005)

    Eliot A. Cohen Member of the Defense Policy Advisory Board (2007-)[60]

    Seth Cropsey Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau (12/2002-12/2004)

    Paula Dobriansky Under-Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001-2007)

    Francis Fukuyama Member of the The President's Council on Bioethics (2001-2005)

    Zalmay Khalilzad U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan (11/2003 - 6/2005), U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (6/2005 - 3/2007) U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2007-)

    Peter W. Rodman Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security (2001-2007)

    Dov S. Zakheim Department of Defense Comptroller (2001-2004)

    Robert B. Zoellick Office of the United States Trade Representative (2001-2005), Deputy Secretary of State (2005-2006), 11th President of the World Bank (2007-)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 20, 2008 10:13 PM GMT

    From what I've seen of government institutions, any form of conspiracy is highly unlikely, unless you're talking about Bob Page and MJ12.
  • tokugawa

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    Aug 20, 2008 11:22 PM GMT
    "The idea that every theory that implies the existence of conspiracy ought to be rejected out of hand" is no more rational than the idea that every such theory should be accepted.
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    Aug 20, 2008 11:40 PM GMT
    tokugawa said"The idea that every theory that implies the existence of conspiracy ought to be rejected out of hand" is no more rational than the idea that every such theory should be accepted.


    True, just think it is highly unlikely that 9/11 falls into the conspiracy category.
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    Aug 21, 2008 12:08 AM GMT
    tokugawa said"The idea that every theory that implies the existence of conspiracy ought to be rejected out of hand" is no more rational than the idea that every such theory should be accepted.


    Indeed. What's important is the ability to take conspiracy theories and find out the facts behind it yourself, not discard it outright.
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    Aug 21, 2008 12:11 AM GMT
    The maker of the movie has posted a lot of discussion of it on the web site. It has sources, an interactive transcript, and a lot more info, and he/she addresses parts of the movie which are inaccurate, up for debate, etc.
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    Aug 21, 2008 12:13 AM GMT
    tanktop saidThe maker of the movie has posted a lot of discussion of it on the web site. It has sources, an interactive transcript, and a lot more info, and he/she addresses parts of the movie which are inaccurate, up for debate, etc.


    I'll go check it out later. I'm too sleepy atm, heh.
  • patagonia

    Posts: 3

    Aug 21, 2008 12:41 AM GMT
    I watched the movie about a year ago and found it to be eye opening. The 9/11 conspiracy does raise concerns for me in the sense that both WTC Towers fell in exactly the same manner, effortlessly and straight down...seems to perfect...How & why WTC 7 fell still leaves me baffled. However, conspiracy seems unlikely to me simply because of the amount of people that would need to be involved & I would have to think that someone would have cracked by now...but who knows.

    Also, when discussing the evolution of the Bible, I have studied all religions and have found it interesting that all of the "so called" Holy books tell similar stories. Christians & Jews have the 10 Commandments and Buddhists have 10 Unwholesome Deeds to Avoid...the similarities are staggering. I could go on with many examples. Also, the Old Testament in the Bible was passed down ORALLY for 800 years before being put to script, so the chance of other philosophies and political interests of the time were certainly likely to be incorporated into the stories. We don't even have any definitive decisions on who the actual authors of the Bible are.

    Thanks for readdressing issues that we need to look at...we all need to critically think, research and come to conclusions for ourselves...but the only true answer is to love and forgive everyone you come in contact with.
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Aug 21, 2008 9:39 PM GMT
    re: the fall of WTC Tower 7

    9/11 building brought down by fire, not explosives, report says
    By Eric Lipton Published: August 21, 2008

    GAITHERSBURG, Maryland: Fires in the 47-story office tower at the edge of the World Trade Center site undermined floor beams and critical structural columns, federal investigators concluded Thursday, as they attempted to curb still-rampant speculation that explosives or fuel fires had been responsible for the collapse of the building on Sept. 11, 2001.

    The long-delayed report by engineers at the National Institute of Standards and Technology in suburban Washington is intended to solve one of the lingering questions about the 2001 attacks: Why did the building at 7 World Trade Center fall, if it was not hit by an airplane?

    "Heating of floor beams and girders caused a critical support column to fail," said Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator. "Video and photographic evidence, combined with detailed computer simulations, show that neither explosives nor fuel oils played a role."


    Read more at the International Herald Tribune