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Soy: Impeeds muscle growth?
westguy79 Posts: 54	Aug 20, 2008 7:52 PM GMT Quote I've heard that eating a lot of soy after a workout can cause harm if you are trying to gain muscle. Is this true? I am not a vegetarian by any means but I am trying to eat healthier and have made soy products a part of my protein regimen. Does soy have negative effects on building muscle?

canadian1der Posts: 10	Aug 20, 2008 11:01 PM GMT Quote From what I've heard soy mimics estrogen. So I would guess that it does since it would boost the amount of estrogen in your body, or at least make your body think there is more in you. I'd def look into it some more though.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 21, 2008 12:37 AM GMT Quote If it does, here are a few guys who haven't had any problems! (well, i don't know how much soy they have but i know they're vegan) ultimate fighter, mac danzig (right): german bodybuilder, Alex Dargatz: strength coach, Mike Mahler: another bodybuilder, kenneth williams:
paradox Posts: 1610	Aug 21, 2008 12:56 AM GMT Quote The last time I sniffed around veganbodybuilding.com, I noticed articles on soy-free diets, most likely due to increasing concern about soy. So, don't assume an athlete is eating lots of soy just because he's vegan.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Aug 21, 2008 1:02 AM GMT Quote duhh, that's why i said i didn't know how much soy they have in their diets. but i wanted to show some guys who don't eat animals to get their muscles. no one should depend on one protein source, though, obviously. chances are they do, though. from an online interview with danzig: http://www.mensfitness.com/fitness/288 "What do you think about the claims that soy protein is estrogenic and will make you grow boobs and cause your balls to fall off? I think that's funny. From personal experience, I eat plenty of stuff with soy and nothing's happened. I know people who've taken testosterone and they've gotten gynocomastia from the extra testosterone. So if testosterone can make your body produce more estrogen, then wouldn't eating something that supposedly raises estrogen levels also raise your testosterone? My body would want to level it out. I never subscribed to the theory that you need 1.5 or two grams of protein per pound of body weight, and when I did some research on it I found that your body can only absorb so much. I shoot for 120 grams a day, which is less than a gram per pound." Edited to add: yes, danzig eats lots of soy, mahler does not, it seems from a quick search. alex and kenneth appear to, but would need to ask them directly.
paradox Posts: 1610	Aug 21, 2008 2:14 AM GMT Quote Oops... that'll teach me not to skim posts before replying.
canadian1der Posts: 10	Aug 21, 2008 6:16 AM GMT Quote Here's a quick article I found, it has some interesting information from some studies. Worth a peek I'd say :-) http://www.bodybuiding.com/fun/drobson71.htm
muchmorethanm... Posts: 2850	Aug 21, 2008 7:22 AM GMT Quote Avoid soy. If you want to eat plant sources that have protein eat legumes and beans. And increase green leafy vegetable consumption.
Caslon8000 Posts: 8510	Aug 23, 2008 10:40 PM GMT Quote Soy yogurt upset my stomach, whereas milk yogurt has no ill effect.
ursamajor Posts: 1898	Aug 23, 2008 10:49 PM GMT Quote That'll lift the sheets at night. muchmorethanmuscle saidAvoid soy. If you want to eat plant sources that have protein eat legumes and beans. And increase green leafy vegetable consumption.
Caslon8000 Posts: 8510	Aug 24, 2008 12:18 AM GMT Quote ursamajor saidThat'll lift the sheets at night. muchmorethanmuscle saidAvoid soy. If you want to eat plant sources that have protein eat legumes and beans. And increase green leafy vegetable consumption. Beano works very well. ....
mixtguy Posts: 20	Nov 20, 2008 3:54 AM GMT Quote Isn't soy from soybeans, i.e., from the beans/legumes group?
Hidden/Deleted Member	Nov 20, 2008 4:08 AM GMT Quote Soy estrogens have been a concern / known for years. Lots of studies raise concerns about estradiol-like substances in soy. http://www.drlam.com/opinion/soyandestrogen.cfm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070516133004.htm http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=soy+estrogen&btnG=Search Your results may differ / pick your poison.
Jackin_Johnny Posts: 719	Nov 20, 2008 5:50 AM GMT Quote westguy79 saidI've heard that eating a lot of soy after a workout can cause harm if you are trying to gain muscle. Is this true? I am not a vegetarian by any means but I am trying to eat healthier and have made soy products a part of my protein regimen. Does soy have negative effects on building muscle? A lot on this and how soy is BAD...... eat more beans, nuts and other high protein foods that are not SOY...I mean even peanut butter.... I never take any soy EVER
RealMasc Posts: 80	Nov 20, 2008 6:01 AM GMT Quote Azstreaker said westguy79 saidI've heard that eating a lot of soy after a workout can cause harm if you are trying to gain muscle. Is this true? I am not a vegetarian by any means but I am trying to eat healthier and have made soy products a part of my protein regimen. Does soy have negative effects on building muscle? A lot on this and how soy is BAD...... eat more beans, nuts and other high protein foods that are not SOY...I mean even peanut butter.... I never take any soy EVER soy is high in glycemic index.. bad for you. peanut butter/nuts are more of a fat than protein.. beans are more carb than protein and being vegan/ vegetarian is just flat out stupid.. no offense but we humans need to eat meat for the vitamins that we cannot get from supplements.
Jackin_Johnny Posts: 719	Nov 20, 2008 6:08 AM GMT Quote RealMasc said Azstreaker said westguy79 saidI've heard that eating a lot of soy after a workout can cause harm if you are trying to gain muscle. Is this true? I am not a vegetarian by any means but I am trying to eat healthier and have made soy products a part of my protein regimen. Does soy have negative effects on building muscle? span style="font-weight:bold;">A lot on this and how soy is BAD...... eat more beans, nuts and other high protein foods that are not SOY...I mean even peanut butter.... I never take any soy EVER soy is high in glycemic index.. bad for you. Maybe so...but it's bad anyway so I don't eat it peanut butter/nuts are more of a fat than protein.. They actually have a good portion of each and some more than others. beans are more carb than protein This maybe true, but I don't think you need to take a high percentage of protein...unless your a competitive BB. I don't! I look OK... :-) and being vegan/ vegetarian is just flat out stupid.. Stupid...well a lot of things are stupid...this is not really one of them. I am mostly vegetarian , I eat fish and some chicken and Salmon. A good salad for me is better than a T bone. Never pork or beef..~ I used to eat it daily ...I was raised on a Ranch.. no offense but we humans need to eat meat for the vitamins that we cannot get from supplements.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Nov 20, 2008 6:43 AM GMT Quote Dead cow is YUMMY. Dead pig is YUMMY. Dead chicken is YUMMY. Sushi (dead, raw, fish) is YUMMY, too. Mostly good for you. Peanut butter is YUMMY, AND good for you (polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats).
MikemikeMike Posts: 1151	Nov 20, 2008 7:13 AM GMT Quote Dead pig is YUMMY. Wow u r what you eat is so true!
samerphx Posts: 2081	Nov 20, 2008 8:59 PM GMT Quote Hi WestGuy79, Soy does have a lot of protein so vegetarians and vegans use it to get protein since they don't eat meat. The problem with soy is that is an anti-nutrient which means that it actually deprives your body of nutrients, particularly protein. It interferes with the digestion of protein and is very hard for your body to digest unless it is processed very well. If you want to eat soy it is VERY important that you find a good quality soy product that has been properly prepared which inlcudes fermentation for long periods of time or extensive processing, including chemical extractions and high temperatures. Another problem with soy is that it contains the highest level of phytic acid of all other beans. Phytic acid blocks the absorption of certain minerals, including magnesium, calcium, iron and zinc. This makes it a very poor choice for infants, some people give their babies soy formula thinking it is a healthy choice. Also, soy contains a natural chemical that mimics estrogen, the hormone produced by women. Increased estrogen can lead to many problems... including breast cancer. Soy has been linked to breast cancer, can affect brain function in men and can lead to hidden developmental problems in infants. There is a lot of controversy about soy. Many 'health' experts say that soy is a suitable alternative to meat but many others say that soy doesn't contain all the amino acids that your body needs to build and sustain muscle. There are 3 amino acids that can only be found in meat that are essential for your body... I forget what they are... Basically, if it is properly prepared and eaten in limited amounts it should be okay but it is hard to find quality products that are safe to eat. Soy sauce is fine... Thanks, Samer
samerphx Posts: 2081	Nov 20, 2008 9:05 PM GMT Quote timsims saidIf it does, here are a few guys who haven't had any problems! (well, i don't know how much soy they have but i know they're vegan) ultimate fighter, mac danzig (right): german bodybuilder, Alex Dargatz: strength coach, Mike Mahler: another bodybuilder, kenneth williams: They don't look good. None of them look sexier or muscular. All vegans need to eat meats.
RealMasc Posts: 80	Nov 21, 2008 12:09 AM GMT Quote Azstreaker said RealMasc said Azstreaker said westguy79 saidI've heard that eating a lot of soy after a workout can cause harm if you are trying to gain muscle. Is this true? I am not a vegetarian by any means but I am trying to eat healthier and have made soy products a part of my protein regimen. Does soy have negative effects on building muscle? span style="font-weight:bold;">A lot on this and how soy is BAD...... eat more beans, nuts and other high protein foods that are not SOY...I mean even peanut butter.... I never take any soy EVER soy is high in glycemic index.. bad for you. Maybe so...but it's bad anyway so I don't eat it peanut butter/nuts are more of a fat than protein.. They actually have a good portion of each and some more than others. beans are more carb than protein This maybe true, but I don't think you need to take a high percentage of protein...unless your a competitive BB. I don't! I look OK... :-) and being vegan/ vegetarian is just flat out stupid.. Stupid...well a lot of things are stupid...this is not really one of them. I am mostly vegetarian , I eat fish and some chicken and Salmon. A good salad for me is better than a T bone. Never pork or beef..~ I used to eat it daily ...I was raised on a Ranch.. no offense but we humans need to eat meat for the vitamins that we cannot get from supplements. we all have different metabolic types. fast,slow and mixed oxidizers. protein type,carb type and mixed type. we all have different needs when it comes to diet. i was vegetarian for so long and it just screwed me up. i'm a total protein type if i ate nothing but carbs i would get fat. i eat 20% fat ,50% protein and 30% carbs(from greens) with every meal and i'm at 7.5% body fat. Now if someone who's of asian decent/ and or a carb type ate like that they would get fat. depending on where your ancestors come from determines your metabolic type. so much for school taught nutrition ..it's rubbish. Most nutritionists don't know squat about proper dieting and eating according to ones metabolic type.
Jackin_Johnny Posts: 719	Nov 21, 2008 5:19 AM GMT Quote MikemikeMike saidDead pig is YUMMY. Wow u r what you eat is so true! LOL...That's funny...
mnjock2003 Posts: 438	Nov 21, 2008 5:48 AM GMT Quote sexysamer said They don't look good. None of them look sexier or muscular. All vegans need to eat meats. lol. maybe we should compare them next to you. They are much more muscular than you are. I guess that means you should be vegan?
samerphx Posts: 2081	Nov 21, 2008 5:50 AM GMT Quote lol sure bring it on... compare me to them.
mnjock2003 Posts: 438	Nov 21, 2008 5:52 AM GMT Quote sexysamer saidlol sure bring it on... compare me to them. I just did. You are much smaller than any of them.
samerphx Posts: 2081	Nov 21, 2008 6:04 AM GMT Quote mnjock2003 said sexysamer saidlol sure bring it on... compare me to them. I just did. You are much smaller than any of them. Right and what is your point?
samerphx Posts: 2081	Nov 21, 2008 6:08 AM GMT Quote mnjock2003 said sexysamer said mnjock2003 said sexysamer saidlol sure bring it on... compare me to them. I just did. You are much smaller than any of them. Right and what is your point? "eating meats" has seemingly not given you an advantage at all. so what the fuck is your point? I have my own opinion.... I believe all vegans should eat meats. Eating meat will helps gain muscle way better.
RealMasc Posts: 80	Nov 21, 2008 3:10 PM GMT Quote now now guys lets cool it down. It's not all about size..in fact who in their right mind would want to carry more weight than they would need to functionally perform?? Bodybuilding is not healthy flat out...it's not functional. Has no carry over into real life. Sitting on your ass doing curls does not transcend into any daily activities that we do. All it does is turn your core off when sitting and performing exercises in stable environments. Bodybuilding is mainly done in the saggital plane..often ignoring the frontal and transverse planes. Our bodies don't function with single joint movements or in one plane, so why train it like that??
Jackin_Johnny Posts: 719	Nov 22, 2008 5:46 AM GMT Quote sexysamer said mnjock2003 said sexysamer said mnjock2003 said sexysamer saidlol sure bring it on... compare me to them. I just did. You are much smaller than any of them. Right and what is your point? DICKHEAD. "eating meats" has seemingly not given you an advantage at all. so what the fuck is your point? I have my own opinion.... I believe all vegans should eat meats. Eating meat will helps gain muscle way better. Well guys, I used to eat a lot of meat and drink whey protein to the max. Over the last few years I have shifted to more of a meat free diet. I am not vegan totally and I doubt that I could ever be. I do think meat should be used in moderation. I like the vegetarian diet. I use a lot of fish and I like Wild Salmon. I find that if I eat a VARIETY of proteins I do better. I just don't stay with red meat to much. I am never going to tell someone how or what they should eat. I have actually read a few books that discuss the fact that some blood types demand more meat Vs. say a fruit and vegetable diet. Learning about yourself is the key to looking good. I think I have it figured out for me just fine. I wish you all the most success in your own individual diets and muscle quest. I can say...I love Salmon Salads!! LOL
tiredofbeingb... Posts: 7	Nov 22, 2008 10:17 PM GMT Quote Does anyone know of a good/effective vegetarian diet for someone who's bodybuilding? I find it a little difficult to eat enough calories.
iguanaSF Posts: 965	Nov 22, 2008 10:58 PM GMT Quote This thread reminds me of almost every online conversation about diet, workout, and bodybuilding over the last 15 years (starting with news groups -- remember those?). Some of my rules of thumb: o Beware anyone who projects their own experience too strongly. They use the first person almost elusively ("I believe" "I think" "As far as I'm concerned" me me me me). These people feel that "what works for them, must obviously work for everyone else", cause, well gosh -- why isn't everyone just like them, after all? If you're a big fanboy of such a person, by all means worship the ground they walk on, but for all others, consider the source. o Beware of people who use the phrase "I heard that..." too frequently. These folks typically skim the surface of information, settling on the most easily remembered headlines, which are often the most sensational, and the most whacked. o Beware of people who use the words "always" and "never" too many times. Especially if they yell them in upper case. These folks are often absolutist types, and believe in black and white rules. In the 1930's we learned that the world behaves probabilistically, down to its very core components. It hasn't changed since, to say nothing of the unpredictability and variety of humans. The real answers to bodybuilding, workout, and diet questions are always lying somewhere in between all the opinions. If it was easy, we'd all be built and ripped. Oh, and I do love how the end game of heated bodybuilding arguments always get to the "but dude, you're bod is lame compared to his, so WTF!" So much more fun than heated political discussions that always end with trying to figure out who is the most like Hitler. K PS The alert reader should also analyze this very post to figure out how much credit my opinions merit as well. PPS As to the poor OP's question, I don't have anything valuable to add. I'm just in a scrumming mood. PPPS Skiing: I recommend asking your question in a new thread. I think it will get buried here, and there's probably a number of guys interested in that topic (despite the predictable and loud-mouthed "vegetarians are stupid" crowd).
RealMasc Posts: 80	Nov 23, 2008 2:04 AM GMT Quote reasons why we need meat. all we ate for like 4 million years was meat and vegetables- we were hunters and gatherers, not just gatherers during the winter, the ground froze, and the only thing available was meat because most americans cannot balance their blood sugar without saturated fat and protein because our bodies are made out of protein because our brain chemistry is dependent upon adequate amounts of amino acids, which can only be acquired in adequate amounts by eating animal products the word protein itself means "of primary importance"
scottishwarri... Posts: 16	Nov 23, 2008 2:26 AM GMT Quote westguy79 saidI've heard that eating a lot of soy after a workout can cause harm if you are trying to gain muscle. Is this true? I am not a vegetarian by any means but I am trying to eat healthier and have made soy products a part of my protein regimen. Does soy have negative effects on building muscle? Westguy79, if you're just wanting to eat more healthy and build muscle, can the soy protein and go with whey protein. It's far better for building muscle, and it tastes better, quite frankly. On the other hand, some studies have shown that soy has a direct effect on lowering your cholesterol. So if that's part of your goal you'll need to weigh that as well. However, if the goal is muscle building, only choice is whey protein.

RealMasc Posts: 80	Nov 23, 2008 2:34 AM GMT Quote the best way to go is to eat natural food not whey powder.

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