Native American thoughts on same sex marriage.

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    Sep 13, 2012 1:58 AM GMT
    Photobucket
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    Sep 13, 2012 2:47 AM GMT
    RJ Rule #1: You can't beat Metta8, he's there first:

    Documentary - Two Spirits
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1620897


    RJ Rule #2: eagermuscle isn't always right:

    Two-Spirits in America --a/k/a "Gay Indians"
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2291610
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    Sep 13, 2012 2:49 AM GMT
    I heard about this. icon_smile.gif It's rather quite neat! I'll add it to my list to watch. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Sep 13, 2012 2:50 AM GMT
    eagermuscle saidRJ Rule #1: You can't beat Metta8, he's there first:

    Documentary - Two Spirits
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1620897


    RJ Rule #2: eagermuscle isn't always right:

    Two-Spirits in America --a/k/a "Gay Indians"
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2291610

    Thanks for the link to that post the videos are amazing.
  • tazzari

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    Sep 13, 2012 3:08 AM GMT
    FlawedAmigo saidPhotobucket


    You post interesting stuff!
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    Sep 13, 2012 3:32 AM GMT
    The only popular movie depiction of this I know was in Little Big Man (1970) starring Dustin Hoffman. He's adopted by an Indian tribe, and one of his friends is Little Horse, an effeminate "heemaneh" who is respected by the entire tribe. (Also mentioned in one of the linked threads)

    Since the movie was part comic I was never sure if that depiction of a gay Indian, and his favorable treatment by the Cheyenne, was true. Nor if the word heemaneh was real, or just a scriptwriter's invention. These sources given here indicate that there is some truth to the movie.
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    Sep 13, 2012 4:07 AM GMT
    Wow that is really cool. I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing icon_smile.gif
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    Sep 13, 2012 4:16 AM GMT
    FlawedAmigo saidPhotobucket



    As someone with whom is part native (Mi'kmaq, to be precise), this is very true. Unfortunately, due to christian influence, some native people in Canada for get this.
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    Sep 13, 2012 4:17 AM GMT
    moobey said
    FlawedAmigo saidPhotobucket



    As someone with whom is part native (Mi'kmaq, to be precise), this is very true. Unfortunately, due to christian influence, some native people in Canada for get this.

    I have Black Foot in me.
  • prototype

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    Sep 13, 2012 4:23 AM GMT
    moobey said
    FlawedAmigo saidPhotobucket



    As someone with whom is part native (Mi'kmaq, to be precise), this is very true. Unfortunately, due to christian influence, some native people in Canada for get this.


    Hey the christian influence is in every native nation! Here on the Navajo Nation it really divides families and especially tradition! Having a divided family is always tough, especially when language barriers have been established; but, when cultural influences clash at the front door, its makes for a bad relationship!

    Oh and yeah the two spirits in one body,pretty cool huh? icon_biggrin.gif

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    Sep 13, 2012 4:28 AM GMT
    This is really beautiful! Thanks for posting.
  • TonyToneTC

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    Sep 13, 2012 4:41 AM GMT
    Homosexuality exist in every tribe both North and South America, even back in ancient times. I am a Dine (Navajo Indian) from Northern Arizona, U.S.A, we actually call ourselves...Naadleehe which means "The divine changeable one"
    We have many sacred Narratives in our oral account, that explains how homosexuality became to be and why they exist, some of them developed certain particular ceremonies that only by them can heal any kind of illness, and have the power to control the forces of nature.

    We have two Navajo God who is a Homosexual.
    One is called; Be'gochidi who is the god of livestock and protector of all Naadleehe upon this earth.
    The other one is called; Tl'ehonaa'ei who is a he /she God, a wife and a husband to the Sun God (Johonaa'ei diyin) who first developed the marriage ceremony to the Navajo people.

    Be'gochidi was Masculine
    Tl'ehonaa'ei was Feminine
    Both are two spirit deities (Naadleehe diyin dine'e)

    Gay marriage exist in our society, but they take on the role of being a Shaman or a powerful leader.
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    Sep 13, 2012 5:12 AM GMT
    TonyToneTC saidGay marriage exist in our society, but they take on the role of being a Shaman or a powerful leader.


    That's true too, in the Cree culture.
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    Sep 13, 2012 6:36 AM GMT
    While obviously more accepting of sexuality than xtianity, is even the NA concept of two-spirited people still somewhat tinged with homophobia?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_spirits
    "Some feel the two spirit identity may be explained as a “form of social failure, women-men are seen as individuals who are not in a position to adapt themselves to the masculine role prescribed by their culture” (Lang, 2icon_cool.gif. Lang goes on to suggest that two-spirit people lost masculine power socially, so they took on female social roles to climb back up the social ladder within the tribe."

    So it seems like there are arguments over masculinity definitions there too.

    and ya gotta love this: "Relationships between two "two-spirited" individuals is absent in the literature (with the sole exception of the Tewa tribe).[18] As male-bodied two-spirits regarded each other as "sisters", it is speculated that it may have been seen as incestuous to have a relationship with another two-spirit"

    I can just see the REALNADLEEH forum discussions now: What does everyone think about imparting our magic upon str8 guys? Discuss.

    What I'm also curious about is: was the concept of two-spirited people embracing of butch men who get off only on other butch men (see how I just got around the whole masculinity debate?) or were they considered outside that umbrella of acceptance? Because what I'm reading here at first glance looks like this was about accepting perceived feminine traits in men, not simply about same sex attraction.
  • FatalEquinox

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    Sep 13, 2012 7:02 AM GMT
    Not all Christians think that.... :-|
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    Sep 13, 2012 8:27 AM GMT
    Great post OP. I have heard mixed information on homosexuals and our indigenous Aboriginal people's here in Australia - however it would not surprise me if they had similar cultural practices prior to European Christianisation.
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    Sep 13, 2012 9:26 AM GMT
    ozgreenguy saidGreat post OP. I have heard mixed information on homosexuals and our indigenous Aboriginal people's here in Australia - however it would not surprise me if they had similar cultural practices prior to European Christianisation.


    But that was then, and it's not now; funny how people are happy to look to the past when it suits them, and smash it apart when it does not; there you go progress does not always follow change, and how many time do people confuse the two.
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    Sep 13, 2012 9:29 AM GMT
    tru_blu_auzzie said
    ozgreenguy saidGreat post OP. I have heard mixed information on homosexuals and our indigenous Aboriginal people's here in Australia - however it would not surprise me if they had similar cultural practices prior to European Christianisation.


    But that was then, and it's not now; funny how people are happy to look to the past when it suits them, and smash it apart when it does not; there you go progress does not always follow change, and how many time do people confuse the two.

    Well we know it was your lot that was the cause of the anti-gay Christianisation. You need a good smack TBA (as we know you aren't getting any from your man)!
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    Sep 13, 2012 1:39 PM GMT
    Let's see this on billboards throughout the USA, NOW! Elections are coming!
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Sep 13, 2012 3:12 PM GMT
    BuddyinNYC saidLet's see this on billboards throughout the USA, NOW! Elections are coming!


    Great idea!

    Thanks for starting this thread, FlawedAmigo. icon_smile.gif
  • mynyun

    Posts: 1346

    Sep 14, 2012 2:44 AM GMT
    wade_in_BC said
    TonyToneTC saidGay marriage exist in our society, but they take on the role of being a Shaman or a powerful leader.


    That's true too, in the Cree culture.


    I'd almost bet that it exists in many other cultures. Just not the "christian/southern baptist" cultures.
    Although I've talked to a few Druids who believe that one must spread their seed. Once that happens, then whatever.
  • brickboy1966

    Posts: 359

    Nov 28, 2013 11:03 PM GMT
    I need to learn more about this because I am part Cherokee.