Sep 15, 2012 5:46 AM GMT
Reposting as some of the usual suspects sought to hijack and vandalize the discussion rather than... discuss it.
Original discussion:
http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2271313
On Dec 09, 2011 11:48 PM (EST), pouncer posted this map:
This is progress.
1. Previously he misrepresented not just the Barak Plan, but also the Clinton parameters.
So he could reject and argue against them.
To rationalize and justify their rejection by Arafat (while pretending Arafat accepted them).
How can someone spend hours seeking (and filtering) data, posting selective snippets, and get things so wrong?
2. Specifically, note the red dots which are Jewish villages that would "be evacuated".
Previously pouncer argued they would remain, with "access roads" disecting the Arab state-to-be.
3. How many "cantons" are there above? None! It is one contiguous area.
(Matching the Ross map I posted years ago.)
Do you see why Mally & Agha don't make the slogan/soundbite "canton" argument and sleazy false comparisons to SA?
Do you see why Ross and Clinton explicitly reject this?
pouncer> The two-state settlement is this (the Palestinian plan):
4. Now, finally, he's giving us a counter-offer?
5. Yet the only difference is the size of the "fingers".
In total, a difference of a mere 30 square miles.
(For those challenged by math, that's a 3 x 10 mile strip.)
6. At a cost of creating a sixth of a million Jewish refugees.
Which is the lesser evil?
Israel retaining a net 30 square miles of land (on which few Arabs reside)?
Or forcing an extra 111,000 Jews out of their homes? (Above the 56,000 in Israel's proposal.)
No surprise that pouncer, always seeking to malign and punish Jews, chooses the latter.
7. All this for the faux "principle" of making land exchanges 1-to-1, exactly even.
As if that's that important?
The problem is that Arabs living on the Israeli side of the 1949 Armistice line don't want their villages ceded to a PA state.
They (despite all the anti-Israeli propaganda) prefer to live in - their homes & villages to stay in - allegedly "apartheid" Israel.
Previously (in the Yalla, Peace! topic), pouncer fell silent when asked:
"What is more important?
Respecting the wishes of these Arab villagers - who don't want their land ceded to Palestine-to-be
or Making land swaps 1-to-1?"
Punish the Jews or let the Arabs live - in Israel - in peace?
Tough question for someone whose raison d'etre is anti-Jewish animus.
8. 4 months later pouncer figured it out:
It is more important to respect the wishes of these Arab villagers, thus the 1-to-1 land ratio must be preserved... by uprooting 167,000 Jews!
9. Hey, why not invent a 1-to-1 "principle" about uprooting people, too?
If 167,000 Jews are to be uprooted, why not uproot 167,000 Arabs from Israel?
(For those too dim to understand, I'm not advocating this. Just showing how ridiculous the faux 1-to-1 "principle" is.)
10. From pouncer's source, we see this stated by the PA negotiators - in 2008:
This startling admission in 2008!
Previously the official PA position was our way or the highway, no negotiation, everything or nothing.
11. Now consider Israel's reponse:
12. Unfortunately the PA pulled out of the negotiations before that could happen.
As documented in the original forum topic (back in 2008!), they regressed to the same ol' same old:
Looks like the PA leadership was wasting its own negotiators' time.
Just as they had wasted the years from 2000-2008.
Just as they wasted 2008-2011.
Just as they continue to waste time (and lives!) now into 2012.
Original discussion:
http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2271313
On Dec 09, 2011 11:48 PM (EST), pouncer posted this map:
This is progress.
1. Previously he misrepresented not just the Barak Plan, but also the Clinton parameters.
So he could reject and argue against them.
To rationalize and justify their rejection by Arafat (while pretending Arafat accepted them).
How can someone spend hours seeking (and filtering) data, posting selective snippets, and get things so wrong?
2. Specifically, note the red dots which are Jewish villages that would "be evacuated".
Previously pouncer argued they would remain, with "access roads" disecting the Arab state-to-be.
3. How many "cantons" are there above? None! It is one contiguous area.
(Matching the Ross map I posted years ago.)
Do you see why Mally & Agha don't make the slogan/soundbite "canton" argument and sleazy false comparisons to SA?
Do you see why Ross and Clinton explicitly reject this?
pouncer> The two-state settlement is this (the Palestinian plan):
4. Now, finally, he's giving us a counter-offer?
5. Yet the only difference is the size of the "fingers".
In total, a difference of a mere 30 square miles.
(For those challenged by math, that's a 3 x 10 mile strip.)
6. At a cost of creating a sixth of a million Jewish refugees.
Which is the lesser evil?
Israel retaining a net 30 square miles of land (on which few Arabs reside)?
Or forcing an extra 111,000 Jews out of their homes? (Above the 56,000 in Israel's proposal.)
No surprise that pouncer, always seeking to malign and punish Jews, chooses the latter.
7. All this for the faux "principle" of making land exchanges 1-to-1, exactly even.
As if that's that important?
The problem is that Arabs living on the Israeli side of the 1949 Armistice line don't want their villages ceded to a PA state.
They (despite all the anti-Israeli propaganda) prefer to live in - their homes & villages to stay in - allegedly "apartheid" Israel.
Previously (in the Yalla, Peace! topic), pouncer fell silent when asked:
"What is more important?
Respecting the wishes of these Arab villagers - who don't want their land ceded to Palestine-to-be
or Making land swaps 1-to-1?"
Punish the Jews or let the Arabs live - in Israel - in peace?
Tough question for someone whose raison d'etre is anti-Jewish animus.
8. 4 months later pouncer figured it out:
It is more important to respect the wishes of these Arab villagers, thus the 1-to-1 land ratio must be preserved... by uprooting 167,000 Jews!
9. Hey, why not invent a 1-to-1 "principle" about uprooting people, too?
If 167,000 Jews are to be uprooted, why not uproot 167,000 Arabs from Israel?
(For those too dim to understand, I'm not advocating this. Just showing how ridiculous the faux 1-to-1 "principle" is.)
10. From pouncer's source, we see this stated by the PA negotiators - in 2008:
Saeb [Erakat]: We will examine the matter. We have lots of internal complications.
...What matters is that we have begun to participate and cooperate.
This startling admission in 2008!
Previously the official PA position was our way or the highway, no negotiation, everything or nothing.
11. Now consider Israel's reponse:
[Tzipi] Livni: Perhaps the next thing we will do, after knowing the position of each of us, is to have the experts sit together and discuss the gaps and differences between the two maps.
12. Unfortunately the PA pulled out of the negotiations before that could happen.
As documented in the original forum topic (back in 2008!), they regressed to the same ol' same old:
Abbas's spokesman said. "The Palestinian side will only accept a Palestinian state with territorial continuity, with holy Jerusalem as its capital, without settlements, and on the June 4, 1967 boundaries." He called the Israeli proposal a "waste of time."
Looks like the PA leadership was wasting its own negotiators' time.
Just as they had wasted the years from 2000-2008.
Just as they wasted 2008-2011.
Just as they continue to waste time (and lives!) now into 2012.
