Deep Dry Needling

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    Sep 18, 2012 6:23 PM GMT
    dry-needling-melbourne.jpg
    I'm scheduled for my first Deep Dry Needling procedure in a couple of hours. (This is not the same as acupuncture as it has nothing to do with meridian points.) From what I understand, the needle is inserted at a much deeper level also, hence the name. I've read about it but still not sure what I think about it, although the physical therapist says it will do great things for my muscle tension and back pain.

    I was wondering if any of you guys have ever had it done and what kind of results it produced, if any.
  • uaeson

    Posts: 60

    Sep 18, 2012 6:43 PM GMT
    i hate needls icon_eek.gificon_eek.gif and pain ?icon_neutral.gif
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    Sep 18, 2012 6:48 PM GMT
    Well, I have to give myself injections once a week anyway, so the needles don't bother me that much. Plus I've had acupuncture done before. The thing that bothers me about this is the PT told me the needles went in about 4 inches! Now either he's just really bad with depth perception or that's really fucking deep! I'm worried about the pain a little because I've read it can be excruciating, and about getting some horrible infection that deep inside my body. My appointment is just an hour away, so I guess I've waited a little late to get cold feet. icon_sad.gif
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    Sep 18, 2012 6:54 PM GMT
    I wouldn't let anyone stick a needle in me that they're guiding with their bare fingers. yikes. hope he wears gloves?
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    Sep 18, 2012 6:59 PM GMT
    Okay....a friend of mine just put me on the phone with his girlfriend who had it done, and she said it was "worse than childbirth". Now I'm really thinking about not going. I don't mind a little temporary pain but she said it's a very deep aching kind of pain that you just can't block out. *Sigh*
  • booboolv

    Posts: 203

    Sep 18, 2012 8:02 PM GMT
    Did you go? What was it like? Details man! Details!icon_lol.gif
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Sep 18, 2012 9:00 PM GMT
    wouldn't a massage work just as well to relieve stress
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    Sep 18, 2012 9:04 PM GMT
    Talk to your PT (or google) about pressure point therapy.

    I've learned to do it to myself and have eliminated the need for massages.
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Sep 18, 2012 9:40 PM GMT
    paulflexes saidTalk to your PT (or google) about pressure point therapy.

    I've learned to do it to myself and have eliminated the need for massages.

    But I like massages ... I think pushing on a pressure point will help in a pinch ... but a full body massage is just awesome to have regularly
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    Sep 18, 2012 10:37 PM GMT
    I'm back. That was extremely uncomfortable. He inserted needles deep inside my back along the spinal column. I was under the impression they would be going into the larger muscle groups, so I asked him if that was safe to insert so close to the spine, but he told me it was actually very safe because the nerves were all protected by bone. After he had all the needles inserted, he attached an E-Stem machine which delivered electric shock to the needles. This was also very uncomfortable. I couldn't wait for it to be over. He said the area will be sore tonight but as the soreness leaves, my muscles should be much more relaxed.

    @ Amoonhawk - I get weekly two hour deep tissue massages already, but the pain comes back after 2-4 hours. They assure me that the results from this are long lasting, as massage cannot penetrate deep enough to reach my trigger points. I'm hopeful but skeptical.
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    Sep 18, 2012 11:39 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidI'm back. That was extremely uncomfortable. He inserted needles deep inside my back along the spinal column. I was under the impression they would be going into the larger muscle groups, so I asked him if that was safe to insert so close to the spine, but he told me it was actually very safe because the nerves were all protected by bone. After he had all the needles inserted, he attached an E-Stem machine which delivered electric shock to the needles. This was also very uncomfortable. I couldn't wait for it to be over. He said the area will be sore tonight but as the soreness leaves, my muscles should be much more relaxed.

    @ Amoonhawk - I get weekly two hour deep tissue massages already, but the pain comes back after 2-4 hours. They assure me that the results from this are long lasting, as massage cannot penetrate deep enough to reach my trigger points. I'm hopeful but skeptical.


    That sounds...bad. Why didn't you just get acupressure or well traditional acupuncture?
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    Sep 18, 2012 11:43 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidI'm back. That was extremely uncomfortable. He inserted needles deep inside my back along the spinal column. I was under the impression they would be going into the larger muscle groups, so I asked him if that was safe to insert so close to the spine, but he told me it was actually very safe because the nerves were all protected by bone. After he had all the needles inserted, he attached an E-Stem machine which delivered electric shock to the needles. This was also very uncomfortable. I couldn't wait for it to be over. He said the area will be sore tonight but as the soreness leaves, my muscles should be much more relaxed.

    @ Amoonhawk - I get weekly two hour deep tissue massages already, but the pain comes back after 2-4 hours. They assure me that the results from this are long lasting, as massage cannot penetrate deep enough to reach my trigger points. I'm hopeful but skeptical.
    }


    is PT personal trainer??? is he a certified MD???

    I wouldn't leat anyone, let alone an MD or an MD-supervised nurse to do something like that to me :S

    Hope the pain goes away man...
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    Sep 19, 2012 1:25 AM GMT
    active_athlete said
    Scruffypup saidI'm back. That was extremely uncomfortable. He inserted needles deep inside my back along the spinal column. I was under the impression they would be going into the larger muscle groups, so I asked him if that was safe to insert so close to the spine, but he told me it was actually very safe because the nerves were all protected by bone. After he had all the needles inserted, he attached an E-Stem machine which delivered electric shock to the needles. This was also very uncomfortable. I couldn't wait for it to be over. He said the area will be sore tonight but as the soreness leaves, my muscles should be much more relaxed.

    @ Amoonhawk - I get weekly two hour deep tissue massages already, but the pain comes back after 2-4 hours. They assure me that the results from this are long lasting, as massage cannot penetrate deep enough to reach my trigger points. I'm hopeful but skeptical.


    That sounds...bad. Why didn't you just get acupressure or well traditional acupuncture?



    Because the studies on acupuncture are proven ineffective except for nausea.
  • spacemagic

    Posts: 520

    Sep 19, 2012 1:25 AM GMT
    Amanda-in-needle-pit-saw-53959_450_254.j

    IImagine it will be a lot like this.
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    Sep 19, 2012 1:27 AM GMT
    joevbanana said

    is PT personal trainer??? is he a certified MD???


    No, Physical Therapist who is certified in Dry Needling.
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    Sep 19, 2012 1:30 AM GMT
    Very odd. I have some minor bruising where the needles were placed but I'm pain free. And I had the procedure done only 5 hours ago. Crazy!
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    Sep 19, 2012 1:30 AM GMT
    It's like acupuncture, but it's not acupuncture. icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 19, 2012 1:31 AM GMT
    Sign me up! icon_biggrin.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 19, 2012 1:37 AM GMT
    xrichx saidIt's like acupuncture, but it's not acupuncture. icon_lol.gif



    Acupuncture deals with meridian points and chakras (which no one has yet to prove even exist). The only thing they have in common is that they both use needles. DDN is aimed at trigger points in your muscles, which anyone can feel with their hands as knots. They can be reduced to a degree by deep tissue massage, but come right back. These needles go into the knots...not "meridians". So very different.
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    Sep 19, 2012 1:38 AM GMT
    I am fascinated. Will you please keep us updated on how this goes?
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    Sep 19, 2012 1:58 AM GMT
    My city physiatrist was a specialist in trigger point injections (which is dry needling). I have a degenerative disc (typical L5-S1) and the way he mostly chose to treat it was to insert a dry needle (or two) on either side of my groin just where the testes met the legs - this would provide immediate relief but if I didn't keep up with stretching I would revert and start walking crookedly again. I never found those injections particularly painful but I was once told I was a good patient by the eleventh spinal tap attempt in an ER manned by a Sunday night skeleton crew when I had viral meningitis so painful it took me 20 minutes just to roll over on my side, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

    Eventually I tried a physiatrist/pain management specialist who had a more permanent solution - she "killed" the main trigger points with lidocaine injections. I've since discovered A.R.T. (Active Release Therapy, which is to accupressure kind of like what dry needling is to accupuncture), using a chiropractor who's also an NPC Masters champion bodybuilder who was flown to England by Dorian Yates for treatment before one of the Mr. Olympia contests - lots of competitive bodybuilders and athletes frequent his practice. That chiropractor is so great that no matter the injury, be it an aggravated disc, torn bicep muscle, foot ligament or rotator cuff injury (at one point I was lurching around with all four) he can usually fix it with lasting results in 2-3 visits (3-7 days) versus weeks or months with a physical therapist. The best use I'd have for my old physiatry trigger point treatments now would be to increase my flexibility to the point where I could do full splits - I'm so close now I'm sure I'd nail it within a visit or two.
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    Sep 19, 2012 2:08 AM GMT
    eagermuscle saidMy city physiatrist was a specialist in trigger point injections (which is dry needling). I have a degenerative disc (typical L5-S1) and the way he mostly chose to treat it was to insert a dry needle (or two) on either side of my groin just where the testes met the legs - this would provide immediate relief but if I didn't keep up with stretching I would revert and start walking crookedly again. I did this for years until I went to a physiatrist who was also a pain management specialist who "killed" the main trigger points with lidocaine injections. I've since discovered A.R.T. (Active Release Therapy), I use a chiropractor who's also an NPC Masters champion bodybuilder who was flown to England by Dorian Yates for treatment before one of the Mr. Olympia contests - lots of competitive bodybuilders and athletes frequent his practice. That chiropractor is so great that no matter the injury, be it an aggravated disc, torn bicep muscle, foot ligament or rotator cuff injury he can usually fix it with lasting results in 2-3 visits versus weeks or months with a physical therapist. The best use I'd have for my old physiatry trigger point treatments now would be to increase my flexibility to the point where I could do full splits - I'm so close now I'm sure I'd nail it within a visit or two. By the way, I never found the trigger point injections particularly painful but I was told I was a good patient by the eleventh spinal tap attempt in an ER manned by a a Sunday night skeleton crew when I had viral meningitis so painful it took me 20 minutes just to roll over on my side, so take what I say with a grain of salt.



    That's good information to have. Thank you. And yeah, he told me the pain varied wildly from patient to patient. But since I normally have a very high tolerance for pain, this really took me by surprise. I was actually sweating throughout the entire procedure and I'm not a sweater!
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    Sep 19, 2012 4:50 AM GMT
    eagermuscle saidMy city physiatrist was a specialist in trigger point injections (which is dry needling). I have a degenerative disc (typical L5-S1) and the way he mostly chose to treat it was to insert a dry needle (or two) on either side of my groin just where the testes met the legs - this would provide immediate relief but if I didn't keep up with stretching I would revert and start walking crookedly again. I never found those injections particularly painful but I was once told I was a good patient by the eleventh spinal tap attempt in an ER manned by a Sunday night skeleton crew when I had viral meningitis so painful it took me 20 minutes just to roll over on my side, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

    Eventually I tried a physiatrist/pain management specialist who had a more permanent solution - she "killed" the main trigger points with lidocaine injections. I've since discovered A.R.T. (Active Release Therapy), using a chiropractor who's also an NPC Masters champion bodybuilder who was flown to England by Dorian Yates for treatment before one of the Mr. Olympia contests - lots of competitive bodybuilders and athletes frequent his practice. That chiropractor is so great that no matter the injury, be it an aggravated disc, torn bicep muscle, foot ligament or rotator cuff injury (at one point I was lurching around with all four) he can usually fix it with lasting results in 2-3 visits (3-7 days) versus weeks or months with a physical therapist. The best use I'd have for my old physiatry trigger point treatments now would be to increase my flexibility to the point where I could do full splits - I'm so close now I'm sure I'd nail it within a visit or two.


    This is very interesting to me too, especially since I'm going to chiropractic school in Portland in a couple of weeks! icon_smile.gif

    I've heard of A.R.T as being very effective but I have yet to try it myself yet. I was told to try A.R.T. and Graston for my post-surgery recovery...just haven't gotten around to doing it yet.

    The dry needling also sounds interesting to me and I'd like to try it as well.
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    Nov 20, 2014 3:52 AM GMT
    I thought I would update this thread with new information since there were so many people interested in it.

    I developed tendonitis in both elbows a few months ago due to doing overhead snatches with too heavy weight. I went back to the physical therapist who suggested Deep Dry Needling again. All I can say is wow.....this is really working. Tendonitis can last a very long time; sometimes years, but this is healing me very quickly. The pain in my left elbow is completely gone now. The right one is being a bit stubborn but still much much better.
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    Nov 20, 2014 6:29 AM GMT
    must have been serious for this needle therapy

    when I went through physical therapy, massage, the EMS system and ice pack over the pads worked well for me, then I was taught yoga and I have been controlling my lower back pain ever since. Never tried acupuncture, although at the time, my insurance covered it, give yoga a try, look hes got the same red ball