Is running for everyone?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 19, 2007 5:28 PM GMT
    I can cycle for hours. But when it comes to running, I wonder if I'm up against a genetic barrier.

    Here's what happens. I hate the body jaring feeling I get while running. It makes me nauseous.
    Now, if I'm sprinting, I stay on my toes and the 'ride' is smoother. But I can't sprint for 20 minutes, so running doesn't really work for me as a cardio exercise. If someone told me to run a marathon, they might as well have asked me to fly.

    As far as exercise, I'd rather carry 50 lbs up a hill for 10 miles than run 10 miles on flat land.

    So, do I just need a running coach, or should I embrace my nature and stick to non-running exercises?

    -Darren
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    Aug 19, 2007 5:43 PM GMT
    Well if your getting natious while running then it could be because of what your eating and how much before you run. Often times people can not eat within two hours running otherwise they get that natious feeling because the food sits in thier stomachs and is not digested as blood flow goes to the muscles as opposed to the stomach.

    If your keen on running then I would try a walk run program to begin with. It sounds stupid but it may also be your body is not used to running for 30min so you need to work your way up to running for 30min.

    Start out with running for 3min and walking for 7min and do that 3 times. Your total workout time will be 30min. Each week increase the amount of running by 30s - 1min while decreasing the walking by the same amount of time. For example the following week you might try 4min running then 6min walking. And slowly increase it until you can run for 30min straight. when you get to the run 8min and walk 2min you might want to increase it every 2 weeks if you find it difficult. But do this 2-3 times a week.

    If your still feeling natious then just stick with cycling or cross country skiing because those are both great cardio workouts.

    Let me know how it works out.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Aug 19, 2007 6:35 PM GMT
    Have you tried an elliptical trainer?
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    Aug 19, 2007 7:09 PM GMT
    OHhiker: "...I hate the body jaring feeling I get while running..."

    Several things occurred to me when reading your post.

    First, yes, short distance sprinters tend to run on their front of their feet (toes). Distance runners should be mid-foot strikers. So, if you are used to running sprints, converting over to mid-foot (meaning, your heel will strike first, but just a fraction of a second before the rest of the foot...not advocating pronounced heel striking here...that's bad too) will be uncomfortable at first.

    Second, one of the biggest mistakes novice runners make is to assume that any old pair of shoes is adequate. I'm assuming you are NOT attempting to run distance in sprinters shoes. If you are, that would not only explain the jarring, it would suggest to me that you would be in pain after a while, and risking injury. So, make sure you have a good pair of new running shoes.

    Third, watch your pace....you are in good shape, and if you are used to sprinting, you might be under the misimpression that every training run is a race. You ease into the run...and the first mile(s) should feel very slow compared to the last miles of a long training run.

    Fourth, about half of the competitive runners I know, me included, ended up needing podiatrist-designed orthotics to mitigate biomechanical issues...in my case, a very slight leg length discrepancy that only emerged as problematic after years of running. Such an issue will make you feel that your jarring, and that you might also have the sensation of joints being wrenched over time. The orthotics are designed to give you a neutral foot plant.

    Finally, it takes a bit of time for muscles to get used to repetitive foot strikes on uneven terrain. Yes, even running on sidewalk (which itself is jarring) or on asphalt pavement that appears flat, will imply small differences in angles, slopes, step-ups, step-downs completely absent in treadmill/aerobic machine running in the gym. That's why no one should EVER believe that they are running a, say, six-minute per mile pace in the gym that could be equivalent to what they'd do on the roads or trails. Outdoor running is much tougher.

    Good luck, Darren.
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    Aug 19, 2007 8:21 PM GMT
    Wow great post Fastprof! I couldnt have said it better. What he commented on sprinting is right on, and proper shoes to take on the repeatitive heel strikes is VITAL to prevent injuries. And like Fastprof said, runners injuries tend to come in the chronic flavor, you do not really and actuely notice them until they have been building up for a long time... Once chronic, they are very problematic and difficult to get rid off.. Take it from a competitive runner!
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    Aug 20, 2007 12:29 AM GMT
    can_duathlete - thanks for the suggestion. Sounds like a good gradient approach.

    timberoo - I can get cardio workouts from ellipticals. 20-30 minutes. But I notice I don't use my calves nearly as much as while running. Also, its disappointing to do elliptical for 30 minutes one day then not be able to run for more than a few minutes on the treadmill. I also like the great outdoors and would prefer getting my cardio in the wild.

    Fastprof - thanks for your extensive comments, I appreciate your time.

    First - Foot Strike. 'Distance runners should be mid-foot strikers.'
    You'd know better than me. I'll keep this in mind. But I'll comment that I was really captivated by an article I read in Mens Health 'The Men Who Live Forever' ( The link is gigantic, so I'll direct you there by saying go to www.menshealth.com and search on 'Tarahumara') The mexican Tarahumarans run on their toes and suffer almost injuries from running. Have you ever heard of this?

    2nd - Shoes. Guilty. *blush* I've always run in cross-trainers. I just got running shoes because I want to do this. NB is the only brand I found that had 10 4E size, so that's what I've got. Though the adidas looked much nicer on my feet. ;/

    3rd - Pace. Hmm. I'll keep that in mind. It will help with being discourage with my speed at the start. BTW - what the hell's the difference between jogging and running? When I move that slow I think I'm jogging.

    4th - Orthotics. Flat feet here. The Good Feet store was fitting me from orthotics. There test showed I was limping because my toes pointed out when I walked. Orthotics $500. I passed on the hardware and concentrated on correcting my gait, my limp went away and now I'm working on running :D

    5th - It Takes Time. I think with running shoes :) and can-duathlete's gradient approach I have a plan now to build up. Thanks for the reality check.

    I appreciate all your comments guys!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 20, 2007 3:12 AM GMT
    DO NOT take advice from magazines like Men's Health! A lot of the advice from that mag is just as bad as those crazy fad diet advice you see in some other pop mags. I do not know how many times I have heard horrific advice from members of this site and also my own patients, which they all contribute to pop work out mags like Mens Health! The last was some "chine" exercise taht was supposed to rid of your local chin fat reserve on Men's Health...It will give you TMJ!

    http://www.realjock.com/topic/23045/

    And you know, there are freaks and exceptions in every sport... Remember there was this African man who ran and won a famous marathon wearing NO shoes? Try that! And you would be scooping up pieces of your heel that you tore off in the form of a trail behind you...

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    Aug 20, 2007 4:43 AM GMT
    Been trying a ramp-up program very similar to what can_duathlete recommended, and it is working very well. After years of frustration that I couldn't run for more than a couple minutes even though I was pretty good on most other forms of cardio, my endurance on the treadmill is picking up--and much quicker than I'd anticipated.

    To help me adjust to mid-foot striking like fastprof recommended, I started with the treadmill set at an incline, which I've steadily reduced as the striking gets more natural.

    You definitely can get decent at this. And without nausea.
  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Aug 20, 2007 7:47 AM GMT
    NYC,

    If you run a Half Marathon, Quarter Marathon or any charities run in my country you will be surprise how many people actually do that. (running without shoes) Even children and school girls do that. I personely dont know how they do that. But yes , I have see it and their feet is just fine, no bleeding or anything. Now dont start assuming my country is this backward , poor country that people cant efford to buy shoes. But when they run they prefer not wearing anything at all. And they are running really fast better that us with shoes.
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    Aug 20, 2007 9:24 AM GMT
    Zakariahzoh:

    Now, let me ask you:

    1. How long is the quater and half marathons?? How fast are these people running in order to be competitive?? Please give a distance in numerical value.

    2. Do thee people who run barefeet, run on paved roads or concrete the way like they would run here...??

    3. The training involved in the comptetitive running of running barefeet, are these marathones a once in a while thing for these people, or are the participants like the competitive runners here who run EVERY DAY to train, and train on paved or concrete roads?

    4. Do these people who run barefeet are also walk and do all of their weight bearing activities barefeet most of the day?? If you are barefeet most of the day, you have already done a very long term training of gait without shoes, more than the athletes can do here.

    5. Do these people work in a job where they walk on paved concerte or road all day??

    IF these marathons you are talking about are not that vigorous and amature in nature, where you do not run that far or that fast, AND you do not do a DAILY training of running of attempting to reach a certain distance in a certain time to be competitive, AND if the particiaptns had a very long time to adapt their feet to not wearing shoes, thus changin their gait pattern, AND if there is no further overuse possiblity such as work all day WEARING shoes on paved roads and concrete in addition to daily training runs at a competitive distance and speed level on hard surfaces... THEN it is comparing apples to oranges!
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    Aug 20, 2007 9:37 AM GMT
    "And they are running really fast better that us with shoes."

    Do you know this for a fact? Or is this another assumption? Please give comparative and objective evidence... Take one of the winners of the marathon you mentioned, and put him or her in the New Yor City marathon. GIve this person the choice of running with barefeet so he or she can run "fast and better", let us see if indeed this is faster and better because then his person should win the New York CIty Marathon eerytime without any injuries....

    The body adapts to conditions, and that is in itself long term training. So if one is used to not wearing shoes, one is already training the body of doing that task to adapt.

    HOWEVER, the human anatomy can only adapt to a certain degree or injuries will occur. So when you perform these long term trainings BEYOND the daily walking and occasional runs barefeet, AND take this long term adaptation training INTO DAILY long distance runs at competitive speed, ON HARD Paved surfaces, the human anatomy WILL breakdown into actue and often chronic type of injuries.

    Furthermore, the lifestyle of developed countries are based on weight bearing on paved hard surfaces. Our natural anatomy of our feet are NOT meant to adapt to this condition in addition to engaging with competitive running distance and speed DAILY as a training method... This is all adding up to over use beyond what we can adapt...

    Therefore I do not think your comparison is valid...
  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Aug 20, 2007 9:58 AM GMT
    Well, NYC ... I am not making comparison. I just sharing my experience on what I saw. After all you did mention about that African guy who run in Marathon and winning . Dosnt the Half and quarter Marathon distance are same all over the world. I could imaging we all run in street road, wearing those number in front and back of our TShirt.I do have cable tv in my house and have seen how they run marathon in United States. They kinda same as here.

    For all those other question I am not here to answer for all those other people. You really have to ask them. I merely saw them running and some of them bare foot people over taken me. Sometimes we cant really explain everything, Mr Muscle. How do you explain those folk in Bali, Polynesian and Hawaiian Island walk thru fire and not having their feet burn. Kinda go beyond science, right.
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    Aug 20, 2007 10:06 AM GMT
    "Dosnt the Half and quarter Marathon distance are same all over the world"

    NO. Not the same. Look at what IronMan requires! It would be a miracle if you can even finish this torturous race! I know, I am a fully certified ART practitioner and I treat these athletes on a regular basis...

    Again, what you are witnessing is under a restricted circumstance... Possibly from watching for a few min here or there. That is NOT an adequate evidence to come to a conclusion as if it is a fact...

    Fire walking has been studied and it can be done with anyone, anyone from Hawaiian tribes to informercial spokes person Tony Little (and they do this as a trick to have people buy thier slef confidence course and tapes!)... There is a scientific reason behind it. That is not my academic area of study, soI do not ahve the answer for you. BUT I assure you someone does, and in a objective manner.
  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Aug 20, 2007 12:11 PM GMT
    NYC,

    I hate to drag this issue further , going off topic and becaming forum between you and me. I am not sure it really fair to other jock.

    I honestly believe there a communication gap between us, since you are American and I am the rest of the world . We measure by matrix (kilogram, litre, )while you guys by mile, pounds , gallons etc.

    Marathon as I know it is a 42 kilometer run, Half is 21 kilometer and Quarter is a quarter or full marathon. I am not sure how you measure that and what you call that in the US. I do believe is about 26 miles. Just like the famous Boston Marathon, it is an event of running alone.

    Ironmen as its stage here is another name for Triathlon with 3 event running, swimming and bicycling. The running is 42k while I am not quite sure the distance of two other events. Here in South East Asia. There are really common in Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and other countries. Attracting participant from all over the world. So really I cant see how can you confuse between this 2 event.

    Just for info, I am currently training to do an Ironman. I am not sure when I can make it though, Give me some times. There used to be times I can bearly finish 5k , but now I can make it quarter easily. My next goal a half , full than I go for Iron man , Wish me luck.
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    Aug 20, 2007 1:01 PM GMT
    OH may I add my two bits worth? Have you considered trail running? I hate running and prefer a hard uphill endurance ride on my bike anytime. But that said, I did some serious trail running back home for a few years, and found that it is a seriously good cardio workout and the backwoods environment and (generally speaking) softer turf was definitely more enjoyable than the road running I have to do in China. Footwear is a big concern for trail running also, but a reputable store can offer sound advice. Good luck buddy.
    Rick
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    Aug 20, 2007 1:49 PM GMT
    For what it's worth, I never thought of myself as a runner, but gradually got into it. I don't try running faster or longer on purpose, but over time my joggs have become both. It's great exercise especially for tonning and even muscle building if you do sprints. If you feel jogging is troublesome, there are many alternatives.
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    Aug 20, 2007 3:57 PM GMT
    OHhiker: "...2nd - Shoes. Guilty. *blush* I've always run in cross-trainers...."

    That really could be one source of the problem, but not the entire basis for what you describe (the sensation of pounding). Cross-trainers are notoriously NOT designed for outdoor running (though they may be OK for treadmill running).

    I mentioned that you are in great shape and that can be a factor too. I know that sounds counterintuitive.

    My nephew was in great shape, as a mountain biker. He went on a couple of runs with me once when we were on vacation. Guys who are in great shape can handle one or two long runs OK aerobically, but tend to overstride (that is, have too long of a stride length for the distance) and tend to bounce (I think that's because he was trying to come down on the front of his feet). As a result, though it always surprises me that guys like this can keep up with me (meaning, a veteran runner) during the run, it always equally is bemusing that the next day they can barely move...as they have strained all sorts of muscles with that unusual gait.

    I have a feeling you will work it out fine. Just don't try a 10 mile run. Work up to three or four miles in a day comfortably.

    By the way, yes, I realize that there are barefoot runners. I guarantee two things...(a) they mostly will have very short careers; and (b) they definitely do NOT run faster than they would have with shoes. Saying that some people run barefeet well, is not proof that they wouldn't have run faster, longer if they had had shoes.

    The Tarahumara Indians that won and placed others in the top 10 at the Leadville Ultra Marathon did indeed shed the running shoes that they had never worn before (except for the race). However, they did not run barefoot...but at least had sandles. But even if this indicates that one can run well barefoot or in sandles on steep mountain trails along which the overall pace of even the fastest runners is slow...this is not the same thing as running barefoot for 26 miles on pavement.

    Sure, some have done it. I guarantee you that those also generally have not had a long running career.

    John

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    Aug 20, 2007 3:58 PM GMT
    Sorry for repost. Forgot to take off the italics.
    _____________________

    OHhiker: "...2nd - Shoes. Guilty. *blush* I've always run in cross-trainers...."

    That really could be one source of the problem, but not the entire basis for what you describe (the sensation of pounding). Cross-trainers are notoriously NOT designed for outdoor running (though they may be OK for treadmill running).

    I mentioned that you are in great shape and that can be a factor too. I know that sounds counterintuitive.

    My nephew was in great shape, as a mountain biker. He went on a couple of runs with me once when we were on vacation. Guys who are in great shape can handle one or two long runs OK aerobically, but tend to overstride (that is, have too long of a stride length for the distance) and tend to bounce (I think that's because he was trying to come down on the front of his feet). As a result, though it always surprises me that guys like this can keep up with me (meaning, a veteran runner) during the run, it always equally is bemusing that the next day they can barely move...as they have strained all sorts of muscles with that unusual gait.

    I have a feeling you will work it out fine. Just don't try a 10 mile run. Work up to three or four miles in a day comfortably.

    By the way, yes, I realize that there are barefoot runners. I guarantee two things...(a) they mostly will have very short careers; and (b) they definitely do NOT run faster than they would have with shoes. Saying that some people run barefeet well, is not proof that they wouldn't have run faster, longer if they had had shoes.

    The Tarahumara Indians that won and placed others in the top 10 at the Leadville Ultra Marathon did indeed shed the running shoes that they had never worn before (except for the race). However, they did not run barefoot...but at least had sandles. But even if this indicates that one can run well barefoot or in sandles on steep mountain trails along which the overall pace of even the fastest runners is slow...this is not the same thing as running barefoot for 26 miles on pavement.

    Sure, some have done it. I guarantee you that those also generally have not had a long running career.

    John

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    Aug 20, 2007 4:10 PM GMT
    no running for me. did years ago, then got shin splints and hurt like a mother bear! never again
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    Aug 20, 2007 11:13 PM GMT
    Zakariahzoh:

    Maybe it is a laugauge thing, but when I challenge anything anyone posts, I quote them verbatim.. Word by word in "" marks...

    That is why when what you post suggest a comparison or a assumption as a suggested fact, while they are not, I think it is only responsible to correct it...

    To not do so would be spreading misinformation and encouraging injury prone activities, such as giveing reader the wrong idea that running on barefeet is safe...

    I have explained over and over again, they body will adapt to how you train it. If you trained without running shoes but sandels, you will not run comfortably in running shoes.

    However, again, the human biomachinary can only adapt so much before something fails...

    That is why I challenge you onthe circumstances how these runners were trained while not getting into over use syndrome as they probalby do not walk on paved roads/concrete during their daily lives..

    And a quick observation without objective understanding of the factual circumstances you do notsee behind the scene is a rather unsafe practice...

    You might as well read Mens' Fitness and just make quick conclusions based on restricted and limited observation and understanding of the physical activities..

    You may not be American, but all of use are of the same anatomy and object to the same laws of biomechanics and kinesiology, period.
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:53 AM GMT
    poneyboarder and twincam - appreciate the encouragement.

    NYCMusc and Fastprof - thanks for the word on barefoot running.

    Zakariah - thanks for your observation of people really running distances barefoot. Its good anecdotal material even if it clashed with NYCMusc and Fastprofs 'this is the real deal' advice.

    Tingbudong - I think I'd prefer this type of running to hitting the streets or treadmill. Ohio is pretty flat here in Columbus. I'd have to drive about an hour to get to decent trails. Sounds like a good weekend outing. I'll have to try finding some running trails. There's some great trails called Cantwell Cliffs and Old Man's Cave, but they are meant for hiking - pretty treacherous with roots and uneven terrain. Not to mention the 40-50 foot
    D
    r
    o
    p
    s
    !!


    As for barefoot running - I didn't see it in my cards anyways. I was thinking more about the style points of the Tarahumara run : on the toes and with short steps keeping feet moving in a unicycle motion with the foot strikes hitting the ground below the shoulders not out in front.

    That style seems to align with what Fastprof was saying about smaller strides , but he's recommending the mid-strike, rather then on the toes.

    Lets get real! My feet are not conditioned to go bare. Have you felt a dogs pads? Not exactly pleasant - dry and scaly. Seen an apes feet at the zoo? I imaging people who run 26 miles barefoot probably have advanced calluses and their mate doesn't get much pleasure from rubbing their feet. Hell, I sand calluses off my feet with pumice or a buffing tool. Not exactly good preparation for a barefoot run!



  • UStriathlete

    Posts: 320

    Aug 21, 2007 3:13 AM GMT
    OH my! You guys! Keep it simple!!!

    OHhiker:
    i teach Chi Running. it's the best why to teach running to "anyone" even the elites. you can buy the book or dvd at www.chirunning.com there's even a clip of the viedo. or see if there is clinic in your area.

    the walk run theory is great for just getting into the sport and even to train for marathons. www.bobbymcgee.com as a good article on walk/run theory.

    I copied this from Coach Gordo:
    www.coachgordo.com

    "Determining where to start with the walk run method would depend on your current level & volume of run conditioning. I generally subscribe the following guidelines:

    · If you run regularly (4+ X per week), then use for runs longer than 35 to 45:00


    · The basic model I use is 10:00 of running & 1:00 of walking, but I easily adapt this to suit the athlete’s capabilities.

    The following ranges are what I recommend from easiest to most skilled:

    1. Phase 1: Beginner: This assumes no running at all prior to this. 1:00 run, 1:00 walk, build rapidly (weekly) to 5:00 run, 1:00 walk.

    2. Phase II: This assumes low running volume (fewer than 4 runs per week) & looking to build volume. Add 10 – 15% to all runs weekly, but break runs up into 6 to 10:00 sections, with a 1:00 walk. If using 10% increases, then move closer to 10:00 run, 1:00 walk, if increasing by 15%, then stay closer to 6:00 run, 1:00 walk

    3. Phase III: This assumes advanced runner looking to increase both volume in long runs & speed in quality workouts. Have the basis be 10:00 run, 1:00 walk & build from there.

    In the majority of athletes this is easily rectified by ensuring that the walk stride rate stays high (rather shorter steps & high cadence), that the walk is brisk with a purpose to covering ground, rather than thinking, “ah, rest”!

    Also ensure that the arms are kept in running mode—allowing the arms to drop down, slows the stride rate, increases the stride length, which in turn leads to “switching off” & the lengthened levers put the pelvis & hamstrings under increased stress.

    By following these guidelines the runner stays facilitated & easily restarts the next section with renewed vigor."

    enjoy yourself!!!!
    smile!!!!
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    Aug 27, 2007 5:02 AM GMT
    UStriathele,
    thanks. Sorry for the delay in response. I took your advice - I smiled! I have a smile pic up now. I actually smile alot, my pics look waaay serious.

    Thanks for the reference on Chi running. I'll have to check it out further.

    What speed should I be running to consider it running? There is a big difference between working up to 30-45 minutes running if your speed is 5mph compared to 8 mph. Should I shoot for 8mph for 1 minutes, then walk 1 minute and work from there? Is it better to start at a good clip and work on length of time, or do you work on time and then speed? or both?

    I went to the gym and had another shot at the treadmill - I was able to run the whole 30 minutes, painfree, no nauteousness. The running shoes helped, but also I just kept my strides short and kept changing the speed up and down to keep it comfortable. I was always between 4-6 mph.

    It seemed so slow, I imagined I was running around my block at home and the little black lady who walks her toy poodle was lapping me ;/

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    Aug 27, 2007 5:35 AM GMT
    Personally I would only run if I felt my life was in danger, and then only if I felt it would make a difference.
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    Aug 27, 2007 6:01 AM GMT
    When I start running, after about 2 minutes, the pain I usually feel is in my throat. I'm breathing hard and I'll usually stop so that I'm not forcing air through my lungs anymore. Any ideas on what I should do? Yeah, I never liked running in junior high. I prefer nowadays to blade.