How well we've done in Iraq

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 26, 2008 10:42 PM GMT
    Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Do Kill!

    "Now that Iraq's sectarian war has cooled off, it's open season on homosexuals and others whose lifestyles infuriate religious hardliners."
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    Aug 26, 2008 11:01 PM GMT
    Fuck.

    And knowing McCain's stance on Homosexuality, if he wins, it'll all be swept under the carpet. Like the closet cases that keep outing themselves in public restrooms. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • joeindallas

    Posts: 484

    Aug 26, 2008 11:05 PM GMT
    You can never have a true Democracy, when the Consitutional Law is superceded by Shira (Islamic) law
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    Aug 26, 2008 11:16 PM GMT
    joeindallas saidYou can never have a true Democracy, when the Consitutional Law is superceded by Shira (Islamic) law
    ditto.
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    Aug 26, 2008 11:47 PM GMT
    "it's open season on homosexuals "

    I'm John McCain and I approve this message!

    blah.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 27, 2008 1:21 AM GMT
    I guess you can't create a democracy to your liking overnight. It might even take 100 years! That is if another Sadam or Ayatollah doesn't pop up. But that doesn't usually happen with the Governments we create I think. icon_lol.gif
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    Aug 27, 2008 2:44 AM GMT
    McGay saidDon't Ask, Don't Tell, Do Kill!

    "Now that Iraq's sectarian war has cooled off, it's open season on homosexuals and others whose lifestyles infuriate religious hardliners."




    Great thread headline. icon_neutral.gif Because homosexual rights were flourishing under Saddam Hussein! icon_rolleyes.gif The only reason we have reporters from Newsweek over there reporting this story for you to write a disingenuous and snarky headline for is because of how "well we've done" over there.
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    Aug 27, 2008 3:08 AM GMT


    Saddam Hussein outlawed sodomy in 2001 making it punishable by imprisonment or death. Not enforced.

    The Ba'ath party, on the other had, which he was a part of, has no real issue with gays.

    Since Saddam's fall, things have gotten much much worse,
    with some guy named Paul Bremer (US diplomat?) helping re-enact the 1969 constitutional laws which make a giant leap backward in gay rights.
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    Aug 27, 2008 3:23 AM GMT
    Not enforced? How do you know? Because the transparent government of Saddam Hussein didn't report the people they summarily executed and tortured? How do you know it has gotten worse? Worse because abuses are being reported now?

    This sounds like a lot of conjecture and guessing. I don't know though...
  • joeindallas

    Posts: 484

    Aug 27, 2008 3:26 AM GMT
    Paul Bremer was not a Dipolmat he was the ViceRoy His word was law. He allowed Blackwter to operate in Iraq without laws.
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    Aug 27, 2008 3:28 AM GMT
    meninlove> Saddam Hussein outlawed sodomy in 2001 making it punishable by imprisonment or death. Not enforced.
    The Ba'ath party, on the other had, which he was a part of, has no real issue with gays.

    So homosexuals were out and comfortable in Iraq prior to 2001?
    As they are in Syria (where the Ba'ath party is also in power)?


    joeindallas> Shira (Islamic) law

    That would be Sha'aria.

  • SkyMiles

    Posts: 963

    Aug 27, 2008 3:40 AM GMT
    And that's not to mention:

    The Cost to Our Forces in Iraq

    3,990: American troops who have died in Iraq since the start of the war. [icasualties.org, 3/17/08]

    29,395: Number of U.S. service members that have been wounded in hostile action since the start of U.S. military operations in Iraq. [AP, 3/11/08]

    60,000: Number of troops that have been subjected to controversial stop-loss measures--meaning those who have completed service commitments but are forbidden to leave the military until their units return from war. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

    5: Number of times the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment has been sent to Iraq. They are the first Marine Corps unit to be sent to Iraq for a fifth time. [San Francisco Chronicle, 2/27/08]

    2,100: Number of troops who tried to commit suicide or injure themselves increased from 350 in 2002 to 2,100 last year. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

    11.9: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their first Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]

    27.2: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their third or fourth Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]

    The Cost to Our Military Readiness

    88: Percent of current and former U.S. military officers surveyed in a recent independent study who believe that the demands of the war in Iraq have "stretched the U.S. military dangerously thin" [Foreign Policy/Center for New American Security, 2/19/08]

    4,644: Number of new Army recruits who were granted moral waivers in Fiscal Year 2003. [Houston Chronicle, 10/14/07]

    12,057: Number of new Army recruits who were granted moral waivers in Fiscal Year 2007. [Houston Chronicle, 10/14/07]

    67: Percent of captains the Army managed to retain this year, short of its goal of 80 percent, and in spite of cash bonus incentives of up to $35,000 [Armed Services Committee Hearing, 2/26/08]

    The Cost to Our National Security

    1,188: Number of global terrorist incidents from January - September 11th, 2001. [American Security Project, "Are We Winning?," September 2007]

    5,188: Number of global terrorist incidents in from January- September 11th, 2006. [American Security Project, "Are We Winning?," September 2007]

    30: Percent increase in violence in Afghanistan from 2006 to 2007. [Reuters, 10/15/07]

    21: Number of suicide bombings in Afghanistan in 2001. [Center for American Progress, "The Forgotten Front," 11/07]

    139: Number of suicide bombings in Afghanistan in 2006, with an additional increase of 69 percent as of November 2007. [Center for American Progress, "The Forgotten Front," 11/07]

    30: Percent of Afghanistan controlled by the Afghan Government according to DNI Mike McConnell. [Associated Press, 2/27/08]

    2,380: Days since September 11th, 2001 that Osama Bin Laden has been at-large.

    The Cost of Funding the War in Iraq

    $50-60 Billion: Bush Administration's pre-war estimates of the cost of the war. [New York Times, 12/31/02]

    $12 Billion: Direct cost per month of the Iraq War. [Washington Post, Bilmes and Stiglitz Op-Ed, 3/9/08]

    $526 Billion: Amount of money already appropriated by Congress for the War in Iraq. [CRS, 2/22/08]

    $3 Trillion: Total estimated cost of the Iraq War. [Washington Post, Bilmes and Stiglitz Op-Ed, 3/9/08]

    $5 Trillion - $7 Trillion: Total cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan accounting for continued military operations, growing debt and interest payments and continuing health care and counseling costs for veterans. [McClatchy, 2/27/08]

    160: Percent that the cost of the Iraq War has increased from 2004 to 2008. [CRS Report, 2/22/08]

    The Cost to Iraqis and Journalists

    8,000: Number of Iraqi military and police killed since June 2003. [Brookings Institute, Iraq Index, March 13, 2008]

    82,000-89,000: Estimate of Iraqi civilians casualties from violence since the beginning of the Iraq War. [Iraq Body Count]

    4.5 Million: Number of Iraqi refugees both inside and outside the country. [Washington Post, 3/17/08]

    61: Percent of Iraqis that believe the U.S. military presence makes the security situation in Iraq worse. [Agence France-Presse, 3/17/08]

    127: Number of journalists killed in Iraq since March 2003. [Committee to Protect Journalists]

    Economic Costs of War in Iraq

    $33.51: Cost of a barrel of oil in March 2003. [Energy Information Administration]

    $105.68: Cost of a barrel of oil on March 17, 2008. [NYMEX]

    U.S. Troops and Contractors in Iraq

    132,000: Number of U.S. troops in Iraq in January 2007, before President Bush's escalation. [Brookings Institution, Iraq Index, 3/13/08]

    155,000: Number of U.S. troops currently in Iraq. [Brookings Institution, Iraq Index, 3/13/08]

    140,000: Number of U.S. troops projected to be in Iraq in July 2008. [Associated Press, 2/26/08]

    35,000: Number of private security contractors operating in Iraq. [Human Rights First, Private Security Contractors at War]

    180,000: Number of private contractors operating in Iraq. [Human Rights First, Private Security Contractors at War]

    Progress Towards Political Reconciliation Made By Iraqis

    3: Number out of 18 Bush Administration Benchmarks Met by Iraqi Government As of January 24, 2008. [Center for American Progress, 1/24/08]

    18: Number of provinces President Bush said would be secured by Iraqis as of November 2007. [President Bush Speech, 1/10/07]

    8: Number of provinces actually secured by Iraqis as of January 2008. [NPR, 1/7/08]

    Bush-Republican Intransigence on Staying the Course in Iraq

    8: Number of times a majority of the Senate has voted to change course in Iraq.

    7: Number of times Bush Republicans in Congress have blocked changing course in Iraq.

    1: Number of vetoes issued by the White House over changing course in Iraq.

    Hey, but who's counting?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 27, 2008 3:53 AM GMT
    I appreciate all the research you did and numbers and all, but what does it really mean? You give no context.

    x-number of soldiers have died. OK. But in that same period x-number of cops in American cities have died. So, we should not have cops in American cities?

    x-numbers of soldiers died in WWII. OK. Does that mean we should not have entered WWII?

    In single battles in the Pacific during WWII, we lost more soldiers than in all of this war. So what do the numbers mean?

    My best friend just left for his third tour of duty in Iraq. He has seen hell, but he was so eager to get back there because he feels it is the right thing. But that is just his opinion. It does not make it right or wrong.

    And why do we attack McCain on gay rights when the Clinton's were awful and Barack does not support our rights? Clinton signed DOMA and Don't Ask Don't Tell. Barack is against gay marriage.
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    Aug 27, 2008 3:56 AM GMT

    One could come up with a very similar list regarding WW II.
    So what?


    Just because someone does something wrong/badly doesn't mean it shouldn't have been done. The removal of Saddam was a good thing.

    The biggest problem (after timing) in my opinion is that Bush attempted to do it on the cheap, and somehow he concluded that the fewer boots were on the ground the fewer casualties there would be. That and the failure to plan for what to do after toppling the government and mistakes such as the dismantling of the Iraqi army rather than employing it.
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    Aug 27, 2008 3:59 AM GMT
    Triggerman's post slipped in. While its first part echos what I said (I said it first, he just beat me to the "submit" button), I think there's a simple answer to his question about McCain vs Obama. The latter is much more likely to appoint Supreme Court Justices which will be supportive of equal rights for gays for decades to come.
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    Aug 27, 2008 4:02 AM GMT

    Hey stonecoldfox,

    There's an interesting read here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iraq


    and then there's Mr Bremer himself...
    http://books.google.ca/books?id=b35cAAAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:L+inauthoricon_razz.gifaul+inauthor:Bremer

    oops, sorry that one's so loooonnnngg.

    ...trying to avoid conjecture and guessing..
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 27, 2008 4:12 AM GMT


    Hmmm, now how does a smiley face get in there with 'copy and paste' ?

    Oh well, here's something from trial-watch,

    " Saddam Hussein increasingly portrayed himself as a devout Muslim, in an effort to co-opt the conservative religious segments of society. Some elements of Sharia law were re-introduced (such as the 2001 edict imposing the death penalty for homosexuality and other sexual offences), and the ritual phrase "Allahu Akbar" ("God is great"), in Saddam Hussein's handwriting, was added to the national flag."

    He was an offensive man.
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    Aug 27, 2008 5:00 AM GMT
    Caesar-

    Sorry I beat you to the button....lol.

    But we have a conservative Supreme Court now. With Bush's additions of Roberts and Alioto. And in the first big gay case, sodomy laws in Texas, they sided with us. Precisely because they are strict constructionists. They believe in reading the Constitution as written, which they believe was in our favor. And they decided in our favor.

    I believe our rights are right there in the Constitution. No need for radical interpretation. So I like Justice's that stick to the text. When they start looking for strange weird nuances that allow this or that I get worried. Because next time it could be US that they do not favor personally.

    I trust the founding fathers. I think they got it right, not just for their time but for future generations. Which is amazing. When they start extrapolating things is when I get nervous. Roe vs. Wade based on a right to privacy? It may be right, but from the right to privacy? A stretch. I do not like stretches. I think a woman should be able to get an abortion, although I am personally against it. But using the Constitutional right to privacy to get there legally is a stretch.