Testing Our Value Systems: The Perfect Lover Scenario

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 06, 2012 4:51 AM GMT
    Greetings:
    I am Rudrod64 and thank you for joining this forum. Below is a scenario I would like you to read followed by some discussion questions. Please do not concern yourself with how realistic or scientifically feasible the scenario is and instead focus on the ethical and moral issues it is seeking to raise.

    The Perfect Lover scenario:

    Imagine that that DNA technology has developed to the point that scientists can not only create artificial living cells, but whole human beings from artificial cells. These human beings have all the same body functions as biological humans except that they have a much longer life expectancy (250 years).

    A company has patented a “Perfect Lover” product that guarantees 100% satisfaction. They can breed and grow human males designed to match the exact specifications of their customers who seek lifetime romantic and sexual companions. The customers can ask for any skin color, body type, personality type, IQ, etc. of their choice and the company will ensure that the Perfect Lover they design matches exactly what their customers want, including their favorite types of sex and lovemaking. These Perfect Lovers are designed to always please the customers, never disagree with them, take care of them and always be loyal to them even when they grow old and/or sick. These Perfect Lovers are also designed to be 100% monogamous which means that they will only be interested in having an intimate relationship with the customers. Even if the customer has an intimate relationship with another person, the Perfect Lover will not object because the Perfect Lover’s role is never to question the customer and be absolutely loyal to him. The Perfect Lovers will always refer to the customers as their “lovers” or “spouses” to society at large, unless the customers decide to label the relationship differently.

    Discussion questions:
    1) If you had the money to afford a Perfect Lover would you purchase one? Why or why not?
    2) If you purchase a Perfect Lover, would you still pursue intimate relationships with biological humans? Why or why not?
    3) What type of personal values did you apply when deliberating about this issue? Why were these values important?


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 06, 2012 4:54 AM GMT
    rubrod64 said and the company will ensure that the Perfect Lover they design matches exactly what their customers want.


    Here's the issue.

    People for the most part don't know what they actually want and more importantly they don't know jack shit about what actually would make them happy.
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    Oct 06, 2012 5:16 AM GMT
    Hey rubrod64,
    Don't worry this time I'll just answer the question icon_rolleyes.gif (Though I gotta say the scenario is much bettericon_smile.gif )
    1) Personally, I would never purchase one, even if I had the money. The point of love to me is being with someone on equal ground to me. Someone who values me and puts me in my place. This is just buying a sex servant to meicon_rolleyes.gif

    2) I am not sure if I would pursue another relationship. If "The Perfect Lover" could give me everything I needed emotionally, then I guess there would be no need. But if it's just there for sex I guess I would pursue another relationship.

    3) The biggest point here is giving you what you want. In my opinion most people don't know what they want, so this gives them something they "want" but not what they"need" (if that makes any sense). I don't want to create something just for myself, then have it live more than half of it's existence alone without me who created it. I think it is not only irresponsible, but unethical.

    Here is a video with a robot character that is created under similar points. I think it is very telling of what can happen when we don't even realize it. I won't ruin it, but if you find this scenario interesting I urge you to watch it.

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    Oct 06, 2012 8:42 AM GMT
    rubrod64 saidGreetings:
    I am Rudrod64 and thank you for joining this forum.
    you're weird
  • mikeeugene

    Posts: 84

    Oct 06, 2012 1:36 PM GMT
    "These Perfect Lovers are design to always please the customers, never disagree with them, take care of them and always be loyal to them even when they grow old and/or sick. These Perfect Lovers are also designed to be 100% monogamous which means that they will only be interested in having an intimate relationship with the customers. Even if the customer has an intimate relationship with another person, the Perfect Lover will not object because the Perfect Lover’s role is never to question the customer and be absolutely loyal to him. "


    Sounds like you're asking if I either want
    1- a male with a lobotomy-
    or
    2- the perfect June Cleaver 1950s wife, or even worse, a Stepford wife.

    For me, I don't even get as far as ethical or moral issues. You're asking me if I want to be bored to the brink of insanity for the rest of my natural life.
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    Oct 06, 2012 2:12 PM GMT
    Wow..

    The thought of unconditional love, someone in good health to fulful my every desire and take care of me until the day I die.. tempting.

    1. I would not purchase such a creature though. Even if I had the money - to bring such a life into the world would be cruel.


    2. Would I pursue other relationships? I think I would, I would need the interaction, stimulation and conflict inherent in other thinking humans.

    3. I would want to love such a person in return, and in order to do that, would be less than human if I did not feel pity for his situation.

    I will not live 250 years, who would look after my perfect lover once I died? Would he pine away and die once I died?


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 06, 2012 5:11 PM GMT
    This has been debated in a more ancient topic:

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/782870
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    Oct 20, 2012 10:32 PM GMT
    1) Yes. A sex robot is sounds like a useful accessory- like an extremely high-tech flesh light

    2) Yes. A sex robot cannot fulfil all the desires/wants/needs other than a basic sexual function. A biological human being can.

    3) A balance of curiosity, pleasure, convenience, and fulfilment, to varying degrees.

  • toybrian

    Posts: 395

    Oct 20, 2012 11:01 PM GMT
    Good questions and scenario...Ariodante guys do know what they want but finding it is hard in the right guy...I still look for the in shape guy that likes running as well as other things..Some of the problems are they live in other countries or when you talk to them they are partnered and that is what hurt the boundazries with guys.. He is out there for you..go find him buddy.. you are a good looking guy with a good build and smile..
    Like the real thing here so would not be thrilled with a robot style man because he cannot give me what i need and that is fun and just being crazy when you want to be and serious when you need to be.. Who knows what will happen in the future with that...never know..
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    Oct 21, 2012 12:48 AM GMT

    sil.gif
  • Vaughn

    Posts: 1880

    Oct 21, 2012 1:48 AM GMT
    McQueen said
    rubrod64 saidGreetings:
    I am Rudrod64 and thank you for joining this forum.
    you're weird


    Be nice.
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    Oct 21, 2012 1:54 AM GMT
    Yeah for sure, as long as I can program my Perfect Lover to disagree with me from time to time and have opinions of his own, and be able to get mad at me, and other real-human stuff...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 21, 2012 2:21 AM GMT
    If the perfect lover were more human and we were equal. where is the fun in dating a complete doormat?

    I like being told no sometimes LMAO, but true in a way that I can't describe...
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    Oct 21, 2012 2:46 AM GMT
    Ariodante said
    rubrod64 said and the company will ensure that the Perfect Lover they design matches exactly what their customers want.


    Here's the issue.

    People for the most part don't know what they actually want and more importantly they don't know jack shit about what actually would make them happy.


    Exactly! That's why I waiting for them to perfect the design to where I can program the perfect lover to be the perfect lover I desire that night.
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    Oct 21, 2012 2:47 AM GMT
    flmao saidYeah for sure, as long as I can program my Perfect Lover to disagree with me from time to time and have opinions of his own, and be able to get mad at me, and other real-human stuff...


    Sounds like you're looking for a woman.

    EDIT: Oh you said from time to time not all the time.
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    Oct 21, 2012 2:49 AM GMT
    It won't matter. Before 2100, technology will have advanced so that human consciousness can be transferred into biotechnical, nanotechnical vehicles with the ability to change form upon demand.

    You can love them just the way they are. Or, have them change.
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    Oct 21, 2012 2:55 AM GMT
    GAMRican saidIt won't matter. Before 2100, technology will have advanced so that human consciousness can be transferred into biotechnical, nanotechnical vehicles with the ability to change form upon demand.

    You can love them just the way they are. Or, have them change.


    Wouldn't that be lovely? I wish I believed you were correct on the timeline. There are a lot of technical challenges to solve there, and not all of them are amenable to exponential returns.
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    Oct 21, 2012 3:07 AM GMT
    rubrod64 saidGreetings:
    I am Rudrod64 and thank you for joining this forum. Below is a scenario I would like you to read followed by some discussion questions. Please do not concern yourself with how realistic or scientifically feasible the scenario is and instead focus on the ethical and moral issues it is seeking to raise.

    The Perfect Lover scenario:

    Imagine that that DNA technology has developed to the point that scientists can not only create artificial living cells, but whole human beings from artificial cells. These human beings have all the same body functions as biological humans except that they have a much longer life expectancy (250 years).

    A company has patented a “Perfect Lover” product that guarantees 100% satisfaction. They can breed and grow human males designed to match the exact specifications of their customers who seek lifetime romantic and sexual companions. The customers can ask for any skin color, body type, personality type, IQ, etc. of their choice and the company will ensure that the Perfect Lover they design matches exactly what their customers want, including their favorite types of sex and lovemaking. These Perfect Lovers are designed to always please the customers, never disagree with them, take care of them and always be loyal to them even when they grow old and/or sick. These Perfect Lovers are also designed to be 100% monogamous which means that they will only be interested in having an intimate relationship with the customers. Even if the customer has an intimate relationship with another person, the Perfect Lover will not object because the Perfect Lover’s role is never to question the customer and be absolutely loyal to him. The Perfect Lovers will always refer to the customers as their “lovers” or “spouses” to society at large, unless the customers decide to label the relationship differently.

    Discussion questions:
    1) If you had the money to afford a Perfect Lover would you purchase one? Why or why not?
    2) If you purchase a Perfect Lover, would you still pursue intimate relationships with biological humans? Why or why not?
    3) What type of personal values did you apply when deliberating about this issue? Why were these values important?



    1.
    I would definitely purchase a Perfect Lover.
    Why? Because it is not my reason for being to have a relationship in this lifetime. Because humans are social, I waste a lot of time being lonely. I want to rise above this and get my needs met.

    2.
    No.
    Why. Because the Perfect Lover would satisfy my intimacy needs.

    3.
    Value: life life to the fullest. Be taken care of. Get your needs met on a consistent and daily basis. We are social animals 24-7. Biological humans have not been there for me.

    The perfect lover sounds like the perfect dog without the barking and hiding/eating your shoes.
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    Oct 21, 2012 3:32 AM GMT
    My perfect biological lover is someone born in the year of the

    Metal Cat - 61 this Chinese year

    Water Cat - 49 this Chinese year

    Wood Cat - age 37 this Chinese year

    However, Cat/Rabbit people like a lot of affection and sex, are cute, to me, but they are too soft-spoken and scaredy-cat for me. I could cuss them out one time and never see them again. I need a lover with a little more resilience than that. Even when I'm well-behaved for years, Cat/Rabbit men pull some shite. And, after, analyzing the lay of the land very objectively and giving them the benefit of the doubt and counting their brownies points, I will checkmate their arse and they KNOW they're wrong.

    The two cat lovers I've had weren't all that religious. Asking for forgiveness would have saved the relationship. Either ask for forgiveness or worship your ego.

    Now, horses and dogs year people have more weight than my peach blossom Cats. I bet you a horse man and a dog man can tell me they love me.

    The Cat men in my life aren't so heavy standing.

    For more detail, one was a Cancer Sun Sign and the other was a Gemini Sun Sign.

    = = =

    Now, on the other hand, there are people who get into relationships that are irrevocable but have tough love talk between the partners where the two can vent their feelings with cussing and raised voices allowed.

    I like a relationship with some PASSION that nurtures being valued.
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    Oct 21, 2012 3:43 AM GMT
    principal0 said
    GAMRican saidIt won't matter. Before 2100, technology will have advanced so that human consciousness can be transferred into biotechnical, nanotechnical vehicles with the ability to change form upon demand.

    You can love them just the way they are. Or, have them change.


    Wouldn't that be lovely? I wish I believed you were correct on the timeline. There are a lot of technical challenges to solve there, and not all of them are amenable to exponential returns.


    Kurzweil's Accelerating Intelligence

    Read the 20120706 paper from Hal Javert.
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    Oct 21, 2012 4:10 AM GMT
    GAMRican said
    principal0 said
    GAMRican saidIt won't matter. Before 2100, technology will have advanced so that human consciousness can be transferred into biotechnical, nanotechnical vehicles with the ability to change form upon demand.

    You can love them just the way they are. Or, have them change.


    Wouldn't that be lovely? I wish I believed you were correct on the timeline. There are a lot of technical challenges to solve there, and not all of them are amenable to exponential returns.


    Kurzweil's Accelerating Intelligence

    Read the 20120706 paper from Hal Javert.


    Right, and I'm a big fan of recognizing that certain things are amenable to brute computation and an exponential curve. Simulation is great.

    But there are physical processes, like preparing assays, that don't enjoy the same benefits of increasing returns. Also, in order to construct such incredibly complex pieces of nanoscopic machinery as you describe, we're going to need to develop theories and frameworks that will require our own wetware.

    Also, we do not currently understand what generates consciousness, and so I think we should be wary of claiming what we will and will not know at different points in time. There were some pretty grandiose claims floating around in the AI community circa the 70s/80s, and now ... not so much. I still haven't heard a convincing theory that explains the existence of qualia, so I think treating consciousness like an engineering, as opposed to research, project is a bit misguided.
  • Just_Tim

    Posts: 1723

    Oct 21, 2012 5:57 AM GMT
    1) If you had the money to afford a Perfect Lover would you purchase one? Why or why not?

    I wouldn't. That sounds really boring and, like you said, artificial. Except for the sex part, that sounds like the reason people get pets.

    2) If you purchase a Perfect Lover, would you still pursue intimate relationships with biological humans? Why or why not?

    Again, no. That doesn't seem right. Why would you pursue other relationships if you already have the Perfect Lover? You would have zero chance of meeting anybody better, that's the whole point right?

    3) What type of personal values did you apply when deliberating about this issue? Why were these values important?

    I used my opinion of what I consider right and wrong. This wouldn't feel right at all. Not a bad idea though. I'm sure many people would utilize it if it were available.
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    Oct 22, 2012 1:59 AM GMT
    I would like two perfect lovers.

    They'll outlive me by a long time. They'll have each other after I'm gone.

  • kevmoran

    Posts: 1543

    Oct 22, 2012 7:34 PM GMT
    I think it'd be nice to rent one when I'm lonely. In the long run I need someone that'll argue with me and give me some challenges. But sometimes I'm weak and I just want a big beefy man that does whatever I say. icon_biggrin.gif
  • keromonkey2

    Posts: 4

    Aug 26, 2014 5:10 AM GMT
    1) If you had the money to afford a Perfect Lover would you purchase one? Why or why not?

    At first glance, this doesn't seem a matter of morality. This is an ideal sex toy. The answer is 'yes', It would be an amazingly novel experience.

    But at second glance, though the cells are 'artificial' they belong to a 'artificially grown' but still biological, perfectly subservient human male (anyone see Kyle XY?). This is a bit like 'making a clone' and using it as a personal lover.

    I cannot say it is morally wrong to want the perfect lover. But the roads that some people might go down- with such resources at their disposal could indeed get quite dark: slavery, depravity, twisted forms of abuse, human ownership, doll trafficking. Not to mention if they are perfectly obedient than that means they could be ordered to harm others.

    Honestly, I would love to have a companion like this and I would value it/him incredibly and treat him as such, but I cannot say the creation of such a companion would be absolutely positive for humanity. There are many pitfalls to this concept and I would be pained to see other individuals treating their "Perfect Lover" poorly, just because it was born artificially, when I'd value mine so highly.


    2) If you purchase a Perfect Lover, would you still pursue intimate relationships with biological humans? Why or why not?

    Yes & No.
    I would say Yes, out of the desire for variety. My perfect lover would meet many traits and that includes the flexibility to appreciate experiencing new lovers.
    But if my Perfect Lover were actually my perfect lover- capable of satisfying all of my needs and desires, of being the exact color, and size, and shape and level of perfect that I might desire- then would I have any desire to have variety, I question?

    This is an answer I cannot know. Sometimes we think we want something, only to find out that what we thought we wanted wasn't what we actually wanted, and most certainly wasn't what we needed. I endeavor to be aware of such things, but I cannot 'know' for certain.



    3) What type of personal values did you apply when deliberating about this issue? Why were these values important?

    Autonomy, Freedom & Variety
    Open-mindedness
    Attraction
    Progressiveness maybe?
    I can't really fill this out right now, lol.