Bulking on low carb diet?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 09, 2012 8:31 PM GMT
    [BACKGROUND, so ignore if you're bored]

    I've been doing Leangains very successfully, which involves both intermittent fasting and carb cycling. Doing a recomp, which is more like a very slow cut. I've lost tons of body fat but had minimal overall weight loss, and all my lifts have gone up substantially. I'm about ready to move to more of a bulk.

    Unfortunately (or fortunately) after years of "borderline high" cholesterol tests, I convinced my doc to do full liproprotein analysis and a coronary CT scan. I had a zero score on the coronary scan - yay, but my lipoproteins are fucked up. HDL barely over acceptable, but high LDL that's almost all small particles with a stratospheric particle count. Which means I need to do something about it or I'll end up with heart disease.

    Unfortunately, the best way to start addressing this issue is with a very low carb diet, no more than 15 net grams carbs per meal.

    [THE QUESTIONS]

    Everything I've read says that it's hard to gain muscle mass on a low carb diet. Has anyone done it? Any tips, especially on keeping up energy without carbs?

    For the moment I'm still calorie cycling like on Leangains, 20% below TDEE on rest days, 20% above on weight training days. But I'm finding it REALLY hard to get in all the required calories with no carbs. On 20%+ days I feel like I want to puke by the end of the day. Got any suggestions for ultra low carb foods that have a lot of calories and won't make me puke?

    Thanks for any insight.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Oct 09, 2012 9:39 PM GMT
    I've done the low carb thing before. As far as heart healthy stuff goes, I'd think cheese, nuts, turkey bacon, egg whites, legumes, salad with balsamic vinaigrette dressing, red peppers, berries, broccoli, tomatoes. Spices like tumeric, garlic and paprika are a way to add flavor if you're going to cut back on sodium.

    I think the important thing is to avoid bread, rice and pasta and anything loaded with sugar.
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    Oct 09, 2012 9:45 PM GMT
    Consume more carbs at the start and end of your workouts. Rest of the day, cut back on the carbs.
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    Oct 09, 2012 9:45 PM GMT
    Thanks, HottJoe. I can't eat legumes or berries mostly, they have too many carbs. Even too big a serving of broccoli or green beans can be too much. Luckily I'm fine with salt.

    Whole eggs are fine, as are monounsaturated and saturated fats (unless and until my test results tell me otherwise). It's a good thing fats are ok - take out carbs and ALSO restrict fats and all that's left is protein. Hard to get 2800 or 2900 calories out of just protein, plus it's probably not very healthy.

    It's just that eating enough cheese, eggs and meats to get in my calories so far makes me feel pretty queasy. Hopefully I'll get used to it.
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    Oct 09, 2012 9:46 PM GMT
    xrichx saidConsume more carbs at the start and end of your workouts. Rest of the day, cut back on the carbs.


    Carbs not allowed, almost at all. They generate hordes of small LDL particles for me, which persist in the bloodstream for almost two weeks doing damage after any ingestion.

    The alternative is probably a heavy dose of statins, likely combined with additional drugs because while these drugs reduce LDL well, they don't attack particle number/size issues well.

    Sucks getting older.
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    Oct 10, 2012 1:03 AM GMT
    When all else fails try Paleo diet. It just defies conventional
    wisdom about eating and the myths associated with heart disease. One book to read is Paleo Diet for Athletes.
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    Oct 10, 2012 1:09 AM GMT
    I've actually had the same issue as you in regards to cholesterol. There is a guy online who goes by "Musclehack" (google him). He seems to have some interesting advice about doing a low carb cycle. I've tried it and it worked for me-lost fat while retaining (and actually gaining) some muscle. His blog is interesting and free. I'd outline his advice here, but I want to give him proper credit for his work.
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    Oct 10, 2012 2:11 AM GMT
    Of course its possible.

    It's called a ketogenic diet.

    It takes a few weeks for your body to adjust to using ketones instead of glucose. But it does work, and work well.

    Of course if you're not eating enough protein and fat you're going to have low energy. Match the caloric intake of a bulking diet and you'll be fine. I did it for a few months with decent results.

    Of course the question is what type of fats you should be consuming to manage your cholesterol levels appropriately. On that one I defer to someone with more expertise.
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    Oct 10, 2012 3:00 AM GMT
    Go see a registered dietitian. You're way off on many respects and this forum isn't helping.

    Also cross-fit/paleo people, SHUT UP. The guy who made the program doesn't even have a nutrition degree. Stop drinking the KOOLAID.

    Why would you take health advice from anyone on here regardless of education? You're discussing small dense LDL on a gay health forum. You wouldn't accept financial advice from someone who isn't a CPA. You wouldn't let anyone perform surgery or prescribe drugs to you who doesn't have an MD. There are professionals in nutrition, and they are called RDs, which is a minimum of 5 years of school without a master's, 7-8 years with a master's.

    Just sayin' shame on your MD for not referring you out on such nutrition questions. Seriously, just go at least once. Your diet isn't healthy, and you don't realize it. Obviously your blood profile shows this.

    MDs MIGHT have 1 hour of nutrition all through med school, if they choose to take it as an elective. It is not their job to understand nutrition. The only MDs who may know more had a BS in dietetics/nutritional sciences before applying to med school. However, you can get into med school with an English degree, a history degree, chemistry degree, bio degree, etc. The MD credential doesn't declare any expertise on nutrition.

    I say all this, and I don't even live near you and am not trying to promote any selfish business interest. You cannot expect anyone to correct all of the strongly held inaccurate beliefs you have about nutrition already in that one post.
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    Oct 10, 2012 4:14 AM GMT
    My questions were pretty simple. Anyone bulked on low carb diet? Any suggestions for low carb foods that have a higher caloric value, as so far I'm having trouble getting enough calories out of what I'm eating? I didn't ask for medical advice, just gave my background to try to head off the "don't be afraid of carbs" crowd.

    My diet isn't healthy and my lipid profile shows it? Bitch, you have NO idea what you're talking about. Until the past few days I've eaten a very balanced diet, almost all home cooked, no processed foods, with moderate carbs and fats, plenty of fish, lean meats, vegetables of all kinds, much of it organic and home grown or raised. I still have a serious LDL particle and size issue.

    Going low carb is one way of attacking this problem, which you would know of you did a bit of research before going off. Generally, much more successful than the low fat/high carb approach that is doctrinal now. We'll see if it's working in a couple of months when I get a new lipid profile. If not, I'll adjust. But your screed against taking nutrition advice for anyone other than a dietitian smacks of the current effort in many states to pass laws restricting anyone from giving advice about eating unless they're a registered "professional." Some of us are smart enough to take advice, but make up,our own minds as to what advice is worthwhile and what's not.

    Grrrr.
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    Oct 10, 2012 9:48 PM GMT
    showme saidMy questions were pretty simple. Anyone bulked on low carb diet? Any suggestions for low carb foods that have a higher caloric value, as so far I'm having trouble getting enough calories out of what I'm eating? I didn't ask for medical advice, just gave my background to try to head off the "don't be afraid of carbs" crowd.

    My diet isn't healthy and my lipid profile shows it? Bitch, you have NO idea what you're talking about. Until the past few days I've eaten a very balanced diet, almost all home cooked, no processed foods, with moderate carbs and fats, plenty of fish, lean meats, vegetables of all kinds, much of it organic and home grown or raised. I still have a serious LDL particle and size issue.

    Going low carb is one way of attacking this problem, which you would know of you did a bit of research before going off. Generally, much more successful than the low fat/high carb approach that is doctrinal now. We'll see if it's working in a couple of months when I get a new lipid profile. If not, I'll adjust. But your screed against taking nutrition advice for anyone other than a dietitian smacks of the current effort in many states to pass laws restricting anyone from giving advice about eating unless they're a registered "professional." Some of us are smart enough to take advice, but make up,our own minds as to what advice is worthwhile and what's not.

    Grrrr.


    My case in point. You wouldn't know real nutrition advice if you saw it. You are wrong on many levels and I am not going to waste my time on trying to convince you otherwise because you know better than people who have studied REAL nutrition for 7 years at a university setting. Yea I'm sure you know what you're talking about. You think a low carb diet is the answer to your issues? You think organic is healthier than conventional? HAHAHA. That's what I have to say.

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    Oct 10, 2012 9:55 PM GMT
    Adam228 saidOf course its possible.

    It's called a ketogenic diet.

    It takes a few weeks for your body to adjust to using ketones instead of glucose. But it does work, and work well.

    Of course if you're not eating enough protein and fat you're going to have low energy. Match the caloric intake of a bulking diet and you'll be fine. I did it for a few months with decent results.

    Of course the question is what type of fats you should be consuming to manage your cholesterol levels appropriately. On that one I defer to someone with more expertise.

    Taking notes...
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    Oct 11, 2012 12:31 PM GMT
    bluey2223 said
    showme saidMy questions were pretty simple. Anyone bulked on low carb diet? Any suggestions for low carb foods that have a higher caloric value, as so far I'm having trouble getting enough calories out of what I'm eating? I didn't ask for medical advice, just gave my background to try to head off the "don't be afraid of carbs" crowd.

    My diet isn't healthy and my lipid profile shows it? Bitch, you have NO idea what you're talking about. Until the past few days I've eaten a very balanced diet, almost all home cooked, no processed foods, with moderate carbs and fats, plenty of fish, lean meats, vegetables of all kinds, much of it organic and home grown or raised. I still have a serious LDL particle and size issue.

    Going low carb is one way of attacking this problem, which you would know of you did a bit of research before going off. Generally, much more successful than the low fat/high carb approach that is doctrinal now. We'll see if it's working in a couple of months when I get a new lipid profile. If not, I'll adjust. But your screed against taking nutrition advice for anyone other than a dietitian smacks of the current effort in many states to pass laws restricting anyone from giving advice about eating unless they're a registered "professional." Some of us are smart enough to take advice, but make up,our own minds as to what advice is worthwhile and what's not.

    Grrrr.


    My case in point. You wouldn't know real nutrition advice if you saw it. You are wrong on many levels and I am not going to waste my time on trying to convince you otherwise because you know better than people who have studied REAL nutrition for 7 years at a university setting. Yea I'm sure you know what you're talking about. You think a low carb diet is the answer to your issues? You think organic is healthier than conventional? HAHAHA. That's what I have to say.



    No, I don't think that organic is healthier, necessarily. I don't generally spend extra money to buy organic. But I do like raising my own food.

    I did not ask for nutritional/medical advice other than as it pertains to my workout. You didn't offer any up other than to tell me that I'm an idiot.

    Please do some research on diet and heart disease. There is a significant trend towards not starting with a statin and other drugs, but tailoring diet and other factors first to see if that works. The trend is also away from advice to automatically follow the low fat diet for heart issues. Suffice it to say that the medical and nutrition communities are divided on this issue. It is not a no brainer. Since I have a zero heart scan score, I have some time, and am trying one approach. I will weigh the results by looking at the effects on my own lipid profile, not population-wide theory.

    I take advice from various sources, weigh their relative worth and triangulate to do what I believe is best for my health. That is the responsible thing to do.

    I'm also a professional, albeit I'm a different field. You will learn that you can't just tell people "you're stupid, I know better." Even if you think you do.
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    Oct 12, 2012 5:29 AM GMT
    showme said
    bluey2223 said
    showme saidMy questions were pretty simple. Anyone bulked on low carb diet? Any suggestions for low carb foods that have a higher caloric value, as so far I'm having trouble getting enough calories out of what I'm eating? I didn't ask for medical advice, just gave my background to try to head off the "don't be afraid of carbs" crowd.

    My diet isn't healthy and my lipid profile shows it? Bitch, you have NO idea what you're talking about. Until the past few days I've eaten a very balanced diet, almost all home cooked, no processed foods, with moderate carbs and fats, plenty of fish, lean meats, vegetables of all kinds, much of it organic and home grown or raised. I still have a serious LDL particle and size issue.

    Going low carb is one way of attacking this problem, which you would know of you did a bit of research before going off. Generally, much more successful than the low fat/high carb approach that is doctrinal now. We'll see if it's working in a couple of months when I get a new lipid profile. If not, I'll adjust. But your screed against taking nutrition advice for anyone other than a dietitian smacks of the current effort in many states to pass laws restricting anyone from giving advice about eating unless they're a registered "professional." Some of us are smart enough to take advice, but make up,our own minds as to what advice is worthwhile and what's not.

    Grrrr.


    My case in point. You wouldn't know real nutrition advice if you saw it. You are wrong on many levels and I am not going to waste my time on trying to convince you otherwise because you know better than people who have studied REAL nutrition for 7 years at a university setting. Yea I'm sure you know what you're talking about. You think a low carb diet is the answer to your issues? You think organic is healthier than conventional? HAHAHA. That's what I have to say.



    No, I don't think that organic is healthier, necessarily. I don't generally spend extra money to buy organic. But I do like raising my own food.

    I did not ask for nutritional/medical advice other than as it pertains to my workout. You didn't offer any up other than to tell me that I'm an idiot.

    Please do some research on diet and heart disease. There is a significant trend towards not starting with a statin and other drugs, but tailoring diet and other factors first to see if that works. The trend is also away from advice to automatically follow the low fat diet for heart issues. Suffice it to say that the medical and nutrition communities are divided on this issue. It is not a no brainer. Since I have a zero heart scan score, I have some time, and am trying one approach. I will weigh the results by looking at the effects on my own lipid profile, not population-wide theory.

    I take advice from various sources, weigh their relative worth and triangulate to do what I believe is best for my health. That is the responsible thing to do.

    I'm also a professional, albeit I'm a different field. You will learn that you can't just tell people "you're stupid, I know better." Even if you think you do.


    I can say you're stupid on a forum because I'm not going to waste my life trying to type to someone who wouldn't know good nutrition advice if he saw it. Triangulation just gets you off center. Listening to people you don't know on an internet forum regardless of education and averaging it against someone who has spent 5-10 years studying it or someone who has practiced dietetics for 20-30 years after having that education means you'll still have shitty advice. It will dilute and misinform the public of true wisdom.

    Also, I can spout diet and heart disease research from memory. I'm still in school, so don't tell me to do the research.
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    Oct 12, 2012 5:40 PM GMT
    ^ I've actually educated myself a fair amount for a non-expert on my particular problem, so I have no idea why you persist in saying that I wouldn't recognize "good" nutrition advice if I saw it.

    I agree that triangulation of advice can lead you off center, not taking any one approach but trying to blend them in a way that doesn't actually work together. That's not what I said. What I said was, as a consumer of health advice, I listen to various sources and, where they differ apply CRITICAL THINKING to decide who I'm going to listen to and how I'm going to approach my own health care.

    Not unreasoning advice from an anonymous, rude person on the internet - or, more appropriately, non-advice, as all you've really done is to call me an idiot.

    It's great that you can spout diet and heart disease research from memory. Fine if you have a conclusion based on that research, and fine if it differs from mine and, more importantly, those of some other preventive cardiology and nutrition experts. But if you think (I can't tell because you never do tell me what you really think) that the research does not say that carbohydrates encourage the expression of small, dense LDL particles, and that low carb diets don't discourage them, you either weren't taught or don't remember it all.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16256003
    "Increased dietary carbohydrates, particularly simple sugars and starches with high glycemic index, can increase levels of small, dense LDL and HDL, primarily by mechanisms that involve increasing plasma triglyceride concentrations. Low-carbohydrate diets may have the opposite effects. Diets with differing fatty acid composition can also influence LDL and HDL particle distributions."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22617560
    "Studies conducted during the past few years have quite unanimously shown that the quantity of carbohydrates ingested is associated with a decrease of LDL particle size and an increase in its density. Conversely, diets that aim at a reduction of carbohydrate intake are able to improve LDL quality."

    You sound like the junior lawyers I know who have no practical experience. They think they know EVERYTHING and that no one could ever disagree with them. In fact, the secretaries and legal assistants know far more than they do. They learn, quickly. You will, too. Or you will starve.
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    Oct 13, 2012 12:19 AM GMT
    showme said^ I've actually educated myself a fair amount for a non-expert on my particular problem, so I have no idea why you persist in saying that I wouldn't recognize "good" nutrition advice if I saw it.

    I agree that triangulation of advice can lead you off center, not taking any one approach but trying to blend them in a way that doesn't actually work together. That's not what I said. What I said was, as a consumer of health advice, I listen to various sources and, where they differ apply CRITICAL THINKING to decide who I'm going to listen to and how I'm going to approach my own health care.

    Not unreasoning advice from an anonymous, rude person on the internet - or, more appropriately, non-advice, as all you've really done is to call me an idiot.

    It's great that you can spout diet and heart disease research from memory. Fine if you have a conclusion based on that research, and fine if it differs from mine and, more importantly, those of some other preventive cardiology and nutrition experts. But if you think (I can't tell because you never do tell me what you really think) that the research does not say that carbohydrates encourage the expression of small, dense LDL particles, and that low carb diets don't discourage them, you either weren't taught or don't remember it all.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16256003
    "Increased dietary carbohydrates, particularly simple sugars and starches with high glycemic index, can increase levels of small, dense LDL and HDL, primarily by mechanisms that involve increasing plasma triglyceride concentrations. Low-carbohydrate diets may have the opposite effects. Diets with differing fatty acid composition can also influence LDL and HDL particle distributions."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22617560
    "Studies conducted during the past few years have quite unanimously shown that the quantity of carbohydrates ingested is associated with a decrease of LDL particle size and an increase in its density. Conversely, diets that aim at a reduction of carbohydrate intake are able to improve LDL quality."

    You sound like the junior lawyers I know who have no practical experience. They think they know EVERYTHING and that no one could ever disagree with them. In fact, the secretaries and legal assistants know far more than they do. They learn, quickly. You will, too. Or you will starve.


    Aside from the assumptions made that I am a know-it-all and didn't tell you nicely that you are wrong, here is what I have to say about the linked articles:

    First article:
    1) Unfortunately there is no study design with this abstract. I logged into my university account to get the article. The article is a review article, therefore, it tries to read a variety of articles uncontrolled for type of study (ie a clinical trial vs a cross sectional epidemiological study where people fill out quesitonnaires). The premise is that if you eat a lot of carbohydrate (or a lot of calories in general), then excess carbohydrate gets converted into saturated fat, a type of fat that is discouraged from being eaten in the diet because it raises LDL cholesterol. It is not saying to eat low carb. Low carb to people makes them go all-or-nothing. Certain tissues in the body require carbohydrate because they lack mitochondria and cannot undergo aerobic respiration: red blood cells, nephron of the kidney, lens of the eye. Some tissues prefer to use carbohydrate: nervous system/muscles (however nervous system can, in a famine situation, survive on ketones). This is why it is important to eat a minimum of 130g of carbohydrate per day, but for most people this is not enough to meet the recommendation of 45-65% of total caloric intake.
    2) In the absence of exercise, ie if you do not work out, I agree with the article. Do not overconsume carbohydrate if you do not exercise. I would prescribe a patient on the lower end of the carbohydrate recommendation (ie 45%) and let them eat more mono- and poly-unsaturated fats if they have no intention of starting to exercise. Notice they are still getting 45% of their calories from carbohydrates--this includes from lactose (dairy for calcium, or other calcium substitute), fruit and vegetable carbohydrate, and SOME whole grain carbohydrate. I would not recommend soda or cheetohs to reach the 45% mark. The person is not utilizing carbohydrate for energy significantly to require more, therefore, consuming excess would cause an increase in the pathway of conversion of glucose into triglyceride, composed of saturated fatty acids.

    3) In people who do exercise, this article is off base. Most studies do not look at people who exercise unless it specifically states that in the title. It is athletic suicide to not consume carbohydrate. It is the primary fuel that is the limiting factor for both endurance/aerobic exercise AND anaerobic exercise. Muscles break down glycogen during exercise and overcompensate with increased glycogen storage post exercise in order to adapt to training. If you're not eating that, then you just break down muscle, and the goal here is not to lose lean mass. So please keep this article in context--for sedentary people, I agree, eat less carbohydrate, but not none. When you say "low carb" people start doing stupid shit with their diet like eliminating all sources of starch, whole grains, fruits, vegetables and dairy. Then they eat way too much red meat, which is high in saturated fat, calories, and thus creates the same issue while losing lean mass thanks to less glycogen storage in muscles. The body has limited ability to convert protein into glucose. It is not efficient. Relying on protein to be converted into glucose is like relying on fructose to be converted into glucose. Both have an extra stop at the liver before that energy can be used by the rest of the body (yes muscles can use amino acids and fructose for energy in limited aspects also, but the primary fuel of muscles is glycogen).

    Article 2:
    1) Same to say as above. It is a review article of epidemiological studies showing a correlation of high carb intake with bad LDL particle formation due to hypertriglyceridemia. Both excessive fructose and excessive glucose, moreso fructose, will cause hypertriglyceridemia if you are sedentary. If you are active, muscles absorb glucose and fructose can be converted into glucose rather than saturated fat. For sedentary people, pathways convert to saturated fat storage because adipose tissue can grow and grow and grow. Muscles store sugar in a limited capacity for both sedentary people and active people.

    Bottom line, if you are inactive, excessive energy intake in any form, fructose, glucose, or saturated fat (saturated fat is the densest form of useless energy for people to eat because you can't convert saturated fat back to glucose in any efficient manner), will cause an increase in triglyceride formation, an increased storage of fat, and an increased production of atherogenic lipoprotein particles, namely LDL types that stick to the walls of damaged areas of your circulatory system.

    Where do people get most of their fructose intake (which is fruit sugar, in fruits)? Soda. Soda has a high concentration of high fructose corn syrup, which is the same chemically as Sucrose but perhaps not in disaccharide form.

    Diet take aways: If you are physically active everyday or most days of the week, you still need carbs. If you are physically inactive everyday, you still need carbs, but less of them. Avoid "bulking and cutting" cycles. Focus on gaining strength and/or reps in the gym, which WILL cause muscle growth without you modifying your diet to excessive calorie levels, which, as we have seen, cause a negative atherogenic blood profile. Inadequa
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 13, 2012 12:20 AM GMT
    showme said^ I've actually educated myself a fair amount for a non-expert on my particular problem, so I have no idea why you persist in saying that I wouldn't recognize "good" nutrition advice if I saw it.

    I agree that triangulation of advice can lead you off center, not taking any one approach but trying to blend them in a way that doesn't actually work together. That's not what I said. What I said was, as a consumer of health advice, I listen to various sources and, where they differ apply CRITICAL THINKING to decide who I'm going to listen to and how I'm going to approach my own health care.

    Not unreasoning advice from an anonymous, rude person on the internet - or, more appropriately, non-advice, as all you've really done is to call me an idiot.

    It's great that you can spout diet and heart disease research from memory. Fine if you have a conclusion based on that research, and fine if it differs from mine and, more importantly, those of some other preventive cardiology and nutrition experts. But if you think (I can't tell because you never do tell me what you really think) that the research does not say that carbohydrates encourage the expression of small, dense LDL particles, and that low carb diets don't discourage them, you either weren't taught or don't remember it all.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16256003
    "Increased dietary carbohydrates, particularly simple sugars and starches with high glycemic index, can increase levels of small, dense LDL and HDL, primarily by mechanisms that involve increasing plasma triglyceride concentrations. Low-carbohydrate diets may have the opposite effects. Diets with differing fatty acid composition can also influence LDL and HDL particle distributions."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22617560
    "Studies conducted during the past few years have quite unanimously shown that the quantity of carbohydrates ingested is associated with a decrease of LDL particle size and an increase in its density. Conversely, diets that aim at a reduction of carbohydrate intake are able to improve LDL quality."

    You sound like the junior lawyers I know who have no practical experience. They think they know EVERYTHING and that no one could ever disagree with them. In fact, the secretaries and legal assistants know far more than they do. They learn, quickly. You will, too. Or you will starve.


    Aside from the assumptions made that I am a know-it-all and didn't tell you nicely that you are wrong, here is what I have to say about the linked articles:

    First article:
    1) Unfortunately there is no study design with this abstract. I logged into my university account to get the article. The article is a review article, therefore, it tries to read a variety of articles uncontrolled for type of study (ie a clinical trial vs a cross sectional epidemiological study where people fill out quesitonnaires). The premise is that if you eat a lot of carbohydrate (or a lot of calories in general), then excess carbohydrate gets converted into saturated fat, a type of fat that is discouraged from being eaten in the diet because it raises LDL cholesterol. It is not saying to eat low carb. Low carb to people makes them go all-or-nothing. Certain tissues in the body require carbohydrate because they lack mitochondria and cannot undergo aerobic respiration: red blood cells, nephron of the kidney, lens of the eye. Some tissues prefer to use carbohydrate: nervous system/muscles (however nervous system can, in a famine situation, survive on ketones). This is why it is important to eat a minimum of 130g of carbohydrate per day, but for most people this is not enough to meet the recommendation of 45-65% of total caloric intake.
    2) In the absence of exercise, ie if you do not work out, I agree with the article. Do not overconsume carbohydrate if you do not exercise. I would prescribe a patient on the lower end of the carbohydrate recommendation (ie 45%) and let them eat more mono- and poly-unsaturated fats if they have no intention of starting to exercise. Notice they are still getting 45% of their calories from carbohydrates--this includes from lactose (dairy for calcium, or other calcium substitute), fruit and vegetable carbohydrate, and SOME whole grain carbohydrate. I would not recommend soda or cheetohs to reach the 45% mark. The person is not utilizing carbohydrate for energy significantly to require more, therefore, consuming excess would cause an increase in the pathway of conversion of glucose into triglyceride, composed of saturated fatty acids.

    3) In people who do exercise, this article is off base. Most studies do not look at people who exercise unless it specifically states that in the title. It is athletic suicide to not consume carbohydrate. It is the primary fuel that is the limiting factor for both endurance/aerobic exercise AND anaerobic exercise. Muscles break down glycogen during exercise and overcompensate with increased glycogen storage post exercise in order to adapt to training. If you're not eating that, then you just break down muscle, and the goal here is not to lose lean mass. So please keep this article in context--for sedentary people, I agree, eat less carbohydrate, but not none. When you say "low carb" people start doing stupid shit with their diet like eliminating all sources of starch, whole grains, fruits, vegetables and dairy. Then they eat way too much red meat, which is high in saturated fat, calories, and thus creates the same issue while losing lean mass thanks to less glycogen storage in muscles. The body has limited ability to convert protein into glucose. It is not efficient. Relying on protein to be converted into glucose is like relying on fructose to be converted into glucose. Both have an extra stop at the liver before that energy can be used by the rest of the body (yes muscles can use amino acids and fructose for energy in limited aspects also, but the primary fuel of muscles is glycogen).

    Article 2:
    1) Same to say as above. It is a review article of epidemiological studies showing a correlation of high carb intake with bad LDL particle formation due to hypertriglyceridemia. Both excessive fructose and excessive glucose, moreso fructose, will cause hypertriglyceridemia if you are sedentary. If you are active, muscles absorb glucose and fructose can be converted into glucose rather than saturated fat. For sedentary people, pathways convert to saturated fat storage because adipose tissue can grow and grow and grow. Muscles store sugar in a limited capacity for both sedentary people and active people.

    Bottom line, if you are inactive, excessive energy intake in any form, fructose, glucose, or saturated fat (saturated fat is the densest form of useless energy for people to eat because you can't convert saturated fat back to glucose in any efficient manner), will cause an increase in triglyceride formation, an increased storage of fat, and an increased production of atherogenic lipoprotein particles, namely LDL types that stick to the walls of damaged areas of your circulatory system.

    Where do people get most of their fructose intake (which is fruit sugar, in fruits)? Soda. Soda has a high concentration of high fructose corn syrup, which is the same chemically as Sucrose but perhaps not in disaccharide form.
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    Oct 13, 2012 12:20 AM GMT
    Continued from above:

    Diet take aways: If you are physically active everyday or most days of the week, you still need carbs. If you are physically inactive everyday, you still need carbs, but less of them. Avoid "bulking and cutting" cycles. Focus on gaining strength and/or reps in the gym, which WILL cause muscle growth without you modifying your diet to excessive calorie levels, which, as we have seen, cause a negative atherogenic blood profile. Inadequate carbohydrate intake, the primary fuel for exercise, is required to have intensity in the gym. If you cannot lift intensely in the gym, then why would your body want to put down more muscle?

    If you need to see evidence for a DRI for carbohydrate, here you go: http://www.iom.edu/Global/News%20Announcements/~/media/C5CD2DD7840544979A549EC47E56A02B.ashx

    (taken from http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/dietary-guidance/dietary-reference-intakes/dri-tables click Macronutrients)

    For reference, the AMDR (accepted macronutrient distribution ranges are:
    carbs 45-65%, fats 20-35%, protein 10-35%). Type in what you're eating at either myplate.gov or myfitnesspal.com.

    Of course it is hard to gain muscle mass on a low carb diet. That's because muscles use carbohydrate for energy. The body has redundant carbohydrate metabolism: lingual amylase, pancreatic amylase secreted into the small intestine, intestinal cell membranes have enzymes have sucrose/glucose/fructose transporters. That's because it runs on carbohydrates primarily.

    I am not sure why you are calorie cycling. Cycling is something bodybuilders made up because they steroid cycle so their testicles don't completely atrophy because exogenous testosterone sources are being supplied, why should the body go through the effort to make it's own? Nutrition isn't something you "cycle." Same with creatine--people cycle it, and it is unnecessary to be cycled.
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    Oct 13, 2012 11:15 AM GMT
    ^So happy someone who knows nutrition posted rather than those who just google crap!
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    Oct 15, 2012 2:47 PM GMT
    @Bluey, thanks for the thoughtful response.

    In answer to your question, I'm still doing calorie cycling and intermittent fasting partially as a holdover - I was doing Leangains, so I'm used to it. Carb cycling also is a part of that program, though, so at least the calorie cycling may not be worth much any more. It's just habit at this point. Though I'll probably stick with the intermittent fasting - even if it doesn't have any health benefits on its own (I'm unconvinced), it does give me more psychological control over what I put into my mouth and as an approach allows me to continue to have a big home-cooked dinner with my bf every evening, something we've done almost every day for 26 years.

    I understand your views on carbohydrate and its importance generally and for athletic performance. I also understand your view that relying on ketone production probably wasn't what we as humans were intended to do.

    Please understand, though, that I've been tracking my diet via fitday for several months. My macros have been within the AMDRs you cited. Some beef, but mostly lean proteins, and a significant daily omega 3 supplement in addition to regular fatty fish consumption. And an effort to get much of my fat consumption from olive oil and other monounsaturated sources. Carbs have been from low glycemic index sources, not junk. I love to cook, and I basically don't eat junk food any more.

    And still, the horrible lipid panel. Which was done at my specific request, my doctor has in recent years said I'm "fine" because my HDL was above minimum levels, my LDL was below 200, and I've gotten my triglycerides down very low (37 from 250ish a couple of years ago), I wanted to be sure. Good thing, too.

    So, I've gotta do something. Please check out trackyourplaque.com for a bunch of research and a lot of peoples' practical experience suggesting that you can use a further refinement of diet (thought what is needed may depend on genotype and other factors) to get blood lipids under control. Other than that, it's a statin for me - I have been on a statin before, and I would prefer not to have to again for very good reasons, or at the very least to do as much as I can without it. Anyway, statins are blunt force for small dense LDL - they tend to cut ALL LDL rather than affecting the particle size ratio. So the more I can do without them, the better. And with a zero calcium score, I have some flexibility to try one thing at a time, and see how it affects me personally.

    You may be right. Effectively eliminating carbs may not do a damn thing for me. But there's some basis for thinking it might, so it's worth a try for a couple of months, and then to judge it against a new lipid panel.

    I absolutely understand that low carb is likely to adversely affect my athletic performance, which is why I posted the question in the first place. I wouldn't be trying it without the lipid issues.
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    Oct 16, 2012 5:25 AM GMT
    showme said@Bluey, thanks for the thoughtful response.

    In answer to your question, I'm still doing calorie cycling and intermittent fasting partially as a holdover - I was doing Leangains, so I'm used to it. Carb cycling also is a part of that program, though, so at least the calorie cycling may not be worth much any more. It's just habit at this point. Though I'll probably stick with the intermittent fasting - even if it doesn't have any health benefits on its own (I'm unconvinced), it does give me more psychological control over what I put into my mouth and as an approach allows me to continue to have a big home-cooked dinner with my bf every evening, something we've done almost every day for 26 years.

    I understand your views on carbohydrate and its importance generally and for athletic performance. I also understand your view that relying on ketone production probably wasn't what we as humans were intended to do.

    Please understand, though, that I've been tracking my diet via fitday for several months. My macros have been within the AMDRs you cited. Some beef, but mostly lean proteins, and a significant daily omega 3 supplement in addition to regular fatty fish consumption. And an effort to get much of my fat consumption from olive oil and other monounsaturated sources. Carbs have been from low glycemic index sources, not junk. I love to cook, and I basically don't eat junk food any more.

    And still, the horrible lipid panel. Which was done at my specific request, my doctor has in recent years said I'm "fine" because my HDL was above minimum levels, my LDL was below 200, and I've gotten my triglycerides down very low (37 from 250ish a couple of years ago), I wanted to be sure. Good thing, too.

    So, I've gotta do something. Please check out trackyourplaque.com for a bunch of research and a lot of peoples' practical experience suggesting that you can use a further refinement of diet (thought what is needed may depend on genotype and other factors) to get blood lipids under control. Other than that, it's a statin for me - I have been on a statin before, and I would prefer not to have to again for very good reasons, or at the very least to do as much as I can without it. Anyway, statins are blunt force for small dense LDL - they tend to cut ALL LDL rather than affecting the particle size ratio. So the more I can do without them, the better. And with a zero calcium score, I have some flexibility to try one thing at a time, and see how it affects me personally.

    You may be right. Effectively eliminating carbs may not do a damn thing for me. But there's some basis for thinking it might, so it's worth a try for a couple of months, and then to judge it against a new lipid panel.

    I absolutely understand that low carb is likely to adversely affect my athletic performance, which is why I posted the question in the first place. I wouldn't be trying it without the lipid issues.


    If your macros are still within the AMDRs, it's not as completely bad as I thought. However, carb cycling, calorie cycling, genotype stuff isn't evidence/science based nutrition. If it works for you, maybe you can post improved lipid profile in a few months. I also don't have a partner and cook all my meals, so I am sure maintaining a relationship is also important to your health (can't do that yet here lol).

    I personally haven't had mine checked (I meant to, but things get busy in school). I have familial hypercholesterolemia and hypertension, grandparents died of heart attack and emphysema and cancer while the other is still going with knee replacements and heart valve replacement and has family who have lived to be over 100, so obviously growing up in a family like that, I became a health nut trying to do as much as possible. Personally, I seemed to have inherited athleticism, smarts, anxiety, and stubborn behavior traits (yes it runs in our family...). Smarts and anxiety are negatives (the smarter grandparents may have died first), and stubborn grandparent is still alive lol.
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    Oct 16, 2012 5:27 AM GMT
    bluey2223 said I also don't have a partner and cook all my meals.


    There is something terrible about that. You deserve a man!
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    Oct 17, 2012 2:43 PM GMT
    bluey2223 said
    Also cross-fit/paleo people, SHUT UP. The guy who made the program doesn't even have a nutrition degree. Stop drinking the KOOLAID..


    There is no one "guy" who made the program. There are a number of figures who have popularised a pre agricultural type diet.

    Quick answers to OP:

    (1) let your body stabilize where it wants to stabilize without trying to make it conform to some roided ideal.

    (2) You don´t need carbs for energy. At least I don´t. I´ve had more energy since I stopped eating the HUGE amount of carbs which I was eating before. I don´t try to eat low carb at all, I just don´t eat grains cos they make me ill.
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    Oct 17, 2012 2:55 PM GMT
    GonzoTheGreat said
    bluey2223 said
    Also cross-fit/paleo people, SHUT UP. The guy who made the program doesn't even have a nutrition degree. Stop drinking the KOOLAID..


    There is no one "guy" who made the program. There are a number of figures who have popularised a pre agricultural type diet.

    Quick answers to OP:

    (1) let your body stabilize where it wants to stabilize without trying to make it conform to some roided ideal.

    (2) You don´t need carbs for energy. At least I don´t. I´ve had more energy since I stopped eating the HUGE amount of carbs which I was eating before. I don´t try to eat low carb at all, I just don´t eat grains cos they make me ill.


    Thanks, Gonzo. I am by nature a thin guy, so there is little likelihood that anything I could do would make me look like some roided "ideal" (I put that in quotes, because I don't wanna look like that anyway, I don't find it attractive). I would like to ultimately gain 10 or so pounds of muscle mass, though at my age I'd settle for being fit, lean and healthy.
  • Dominican_Gen...

    Posts: 379

    Oct 25, 2012 4:38 PM GMT
    bluey2223 said
    Also cross-fit/paleo people, SHUT UP. The guy who made the program doesn't even have a nutrition degree. Stop drinking the KOOLAID.

    Say what you want. You cann't argue with success. Paleo just works.