Even if Obama was (hypothetically) Muslim, who cares????!!!!

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    Aug 29, 2008 12:31 AM GMT
    If 9/11 didn't happen, does anyone think the "Muslim issue" would even be an issue this election? Why is does the Christian Right always try use scare tactics to promote their agenda (especially considering the Christian past)??? And, why does someone's religion play such a large role in American politics???
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    Aug 29, 2008 1:03 AM GMT
    VineyardHmo> why does someone's religion play such a large role in American politics???

    I think the fear is that the politics will somehow follow the religion. And many of us share that fear. That's why we'd be suspicious of a Bible-thumping candidate, regardless of whether he is Christian... or Muslim.

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    Aug 29, 2008 1:21 AM GMT
    Obama is "bible-thumping"?
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    Aug 29, 2008 1:26 AM GMT
    Was just addressing your last question.
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    Aug 29, 2008 2:03 AM GMT
    This entire society is based off of Christianity for the most part, i'd like to say it wouldn't matter to people but unfortunately its a big deal even if not directly acknowledge.

    Our calender is based on christian holidays (jews don't get school or work days off for Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashana, two biggest days).

    Many of our laws are christian based. It matters

    So even the slightest bit of saying someone is different, can scare people and deter them from voting for him. Sad but true
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    Aug 29, 2008 2:35 AM GMT
    Given the example of how "Christians" have fucked up this country... a Muslim certainly couldn't do any worse...

    Obama is NOT a Muslim... NOT a terrorist... NOT a racist. He is as patriotic as any of us, but he is also aware of the problems in this country.

    When white people say he is not patriotic, or suggest he is Muslim, all of that is simple code for them that means "I'm not voting for a black man." Read between the lines.
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    Aug 29, 2008 2:57 AM GMT
    It may be that people who try to relate Obama with Muslims are trying to rationalize their racism against blacks. It's not politically correct to dislike blacks, but right now disliking Muslims won't get you into much trouble. But I can't tell you for sure. People who think that Obama's middle name is a valid connection to Muslims are beyond what I'm capable of comprehending.
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    Aug 29, 2008 3:18 AM GMT
    I think this so-called "Muslim issue" would probably have been a hot topic even if 9/11 hadn't happened because for years - even decades - Muslim extremism in the forms of groups like Hammas, Hizballah and al Qaeda has gotten the attention of the American media, and accordingly most of what we see (and in some cases presume to know) about Islam is it's most violent and unreasonable representations. That kind of thing was going on long before 9/11, and it would have indeed been brought to the table if a Muslim candidate had appeared.

    Do I think that the Christian Right is milking it especially hard in these "post-9/11 days?" Absolutely... not just because "It's not Christian," but more because this particular election, more than any other that I can recall seeing or reading about, appears to be about selecting a person who is not only the political and military commander-In-Chief but also "America's moral leader." Both Republicans and Democrats have egg on their faces because of sex scandals, and gay marriage has already been approved in another state to the delight of some and the chagrin of others. These are not, perhaps the key issues facing the country and this election, but they are certainly the ones that seem to matter to the Christian Right. I may be wrong, but it is almost like they seem to think that these are signs that the country is weakening... that we got attacked for being who we were on 9/11/01, and that if these things are not addressed right now, we can be attacked for it again.

    Just speculating on that last point, though...I honestly have no idea what is going on in their alleged minds.

  • auryn

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    Aug 29, 2008 3:26 AM GMT
    If Obama was ever a Muslim, his public declarations to admit the contrary, as I know it from the Koran, give other Muslims the right to kill him.

    Stop this foolishness. I'm tired of hearing about the data-less hypothesis about his being a Muslim. Enough already!
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    Aug 29, 2008 4:01 AM GMT
    VineyardHmo saidIf 9/11 didn't happen, does anyone think the "Muslim issue" would even be an issue this election? Why is does the Christian Right always try use scare tactics to promote their agenda (especially considering the Christian past)??? And, why does someone's religion play such a large role in American politics???


    THANK YOU VineyardHmo!!
    I agree!

    I have a GREAT Idea... Separation of church and state...

    haha
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    Aug 29, 2008 4:39 AM GMT
    zsocerstar saidThis entire society is based off of Christianity for the most part, i'd like to say it wouldn't matter to people but unfortunately its a big deal even if not directly acknowledge.

    Our calender is based on Christian holidays (jews don't get school or work days off for Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashana, two biggest days).

    Many of our laws are christian based. It matters

    So even the slightest bit of saying someone is different, can scare people and deter them from voting for him. Sad but true

    I agree that someone's religion should not be a factor in if they are a good candidate, but I have to differ with you on the notion that U.S. laws are based on Christian notions.

    I say this because Christianity although based on Judaism, at it's core had "no laws" like the Jewish Nation. It was based on faith and not law. Our Government and Laws are based on a fusion of Greek, Roman, and Jewish concepts. Israel had one of the earliest set of complex laws that governed everything from agriculture, to health, to finance, to reparations, to equality and social welfare.

    Christianity never had any laws because it was never a nation like Israel. Christians only adopted the laws of the nations they were in. As far as Holidays, those were lifted from the Romans and in some cases the Jewish people. Christmas = the Roman Saturnalia, Easter = a fusion of Mediterranean fertility rites and the Jewish Passover. The early Christians were all Jewish so kept the Jewish Holy Days. When Gentiles converted to Christianity they were told they did not have to keep any Holy Days, but inherited a transformed Passover which became Communion.

    Here is a quote and article about the Jewish influence on the U.S. constitution ..

    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/government.html No nation has been more profoundly influenced by the “Old Testament” than America. Many of America’s early statesmen and educators were schooled in Hebraic civilization. The second president of the United States, John Adams, a Harvard graduate, had this to say of the Jewish people:

    The Jews have done more to civilize men than any other nation…. They are the most glorious Nation that ever inhabited the earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the Globe and have influenced the affairs of Mankind more, and more happily than any other Nation, ancient or modern
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    Aug 29, 2008 4:44 AM GMT
    BTW, all that being said, I believe in freedom of religion but separation of church and state. I believe although Obama is a professed Christian, he embraces different people and even Gays equally. He understands the Constitution and Civil Rights.

    Also Barack Obama is a strong believer of separation of Church and State:

    http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htmI'm a big believer in the separation of church and state. (Apr 2004)
    Rated 100% by the AU, indicating support of church-state separation. (Dec 2006)
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    Aug 29, 2008 4:56 AM GMT
    I'm more concerned with McCain being a "Manchurian Candidate" , who knows how they brainwashed him.
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    Aug 29, 2008 7:38 AM GMT

    ActiveAndFit> Our Government and Laws are based on a fusion of Greek, Roman, and Jewish concepts... Christians only adopted the laws of the nations they were in. As far as Holidays, those were lifted from the Romans and in some cases the Jewish people. Christmas = the Roman Saturnalia, Easter = a fusion of Mediterranean fertility rites and the Jewish Passover.

    I think everything that you say is right... but misses the point that zsocerstar was getting at.

    Christmas is not a legal holiday in the US because of anything Roman or to do with Saturnalia. Neither does Easter in the US have anything to do with the Mediterranean or Passover (other than indirectly). In fact, Easter is a legal holiday whereas Passover is not.

    While these holidays have become secularized, they are Christian in origin (even if early Christians borrowed them from elsewhere) and that is why these are legal holidays. (And seemingly every year there is a rash of cases of municipalities funding/erecting Nativity scenes).

    Philosophically this smacks of a violation of church and state, but pragmatically there is sense to it. The vast majority of people in this country are Christians. What's the point of holding classes if 80% of the students - or teachers - won't be there?
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    Aug 29, 2008 8:18 AM GMT
    caesarea4 said
    ActiveAndFit> I think everything that you say is right... but misses the point that zsocerstar was getting at.
    While these holidays have become secularized, they are Christian in origin (even if early Christians borrowed them from elsewhere) and that is why these are legal holidays. (And seemingly every year there is a rash of cases of municipalities funding/erecting Nativity scenes).


    Oh I understood what he was saying. Actually some of what I was saying was to tear away the notion that people really do those things for religious reason, but more for "popular reasons" like you are saying. Just because something is popular does not mean it is government sanctioned .. it just seems that way because it is, well, popular! One fact check though .. Easter is not really a "government" holiday as it always falls on Sunday which like Saturday is "conventionally" not a workday for many businesses. No place I ever worked for would give you Easter off unless you asked for it (seven day work places).

    lol, see now I am wanting to talk too much. sorry.

    Most of the Holidays in the U.S. are actually secular. Christmas is probably the only one that is really wearing a Christian "cloak" that people get off during a workweek. Look at the others (Federally recognized days off):

    New Year’s Day
    Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
    Washington’s Birthday
    Memorial Day
    Independence Day
    Labor Day
    Columbus Day
    Veterans Day
    Thanksgiving Day
    Christmas Day

    See? The one "religious" day is pretty much just a popular/commercial thing.

    Now concerning other's ("Jewish" for instance) religious Holidays: Did you know that I observed the seven Hebrew festivals for 8 years straight including the Sabbath/Saturday sunset to sunset? (not chanukah or purim though just the ones from Leviticus ) The reason I bring that up, that maybe people don't know, is that you can do so with the protection of the government in relation to school and work. When I did so, I could always present a document from my church (that I was going to at the time) to remind people that I was afforded that right to religious observance under non-discrimination law. So the government will actually respect others known religious holidays even if they are not Christian or on the calendar. I never had a problem with it. Even the seven day festival of booths. At most I might have had to take some paid or non-paid vacation, but then again I got the Christmas off too.

    So there you go. The government is more secular than people think, and more tolerant than people think. Now the average person on the street .. some are tolerant, some are not.icon_biggrin.gif (see I was going somewhere with all that!)



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    Aug 29, 2008 9:04 AM GMT
    OK, one more thing .. I think people commonly convince themselves that because they do a certain thing religious wise, it has always been done that way. They sort of backwards interpret history based on what they know about society today. In fact sometimes they convince others too icon_eek.gif

    An interesting thing concerning religion and politics and Christmas just as an example:
    http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=1252&display_order=1&mini_id=1290
    The Real Story of ChristmasThe pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.

    After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.


    icon_eek.gificon_eek.gifNO CHRISTMAS for you founding fathers! icon_lol.gif

    Here was a thread about "Are we a Christian Nation"
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/200557/
    In there I rant a little about separation of church and state (with references) before going on to defend religious freedom .. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Aug 29, 2008 2:07 PM GMT

    Seeing that the question is about being a Muslim....

    Most modern day Christian faiths are a lot more tolerant than Muslim.

    Up here in Canada, there was a furor when muslim groups demanded Shariah Law be enshrined in law as a legal form of justice! Yikes!

    Several of the Muslims I've had conversations with over the last few years have acknowledged that Muslims look after their own. Few extend charity to non-Muslims. However, post 9/11 here's what's happening:
    http://www.montrealmuslims.ca/module-pagesetter-viewpub-tid-7-pid-2006.html

    ...sorry, haven't figured out how to properly embed a link.
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    Aug 29, 2008 2:39 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    Seeing that the question is about being a Muslim....

    Most modern day Christian faiths are a lot more tolerant than Muslim.

    Up here in Canada, there was a furor when muslim groups demanded Shariah Law be enshrined in law as a legal form of justice! Yikes!

    Several of the Muslims I've had conversations with over the last few years have acknowledged that Muslims look after their own. Few extend charity to non-Muslims. However, post 9/11 here's what's happening:
    http://www.montrealmuslims.ca/module-pagesetter-viewpub-tid-7-pid-2006.html

    ...sorry, haven't figured out how to properly embed a link.


    There are groups of Christians who demand that their version of Christian law be codified. There has been a huge stink over the last few years about a state judge who erected a monument to the Ten Commandments and refused to take it down after a ruling by federal judges.

    And the assertion that most Christian faiths are more tolerant than Islam is simply not true.
  • Barricade

    Posts: 457

    Aug 29, 2008 2:50 PM GMT
    Auryn saidIf Obama was ever a Muslim, his public declarations to admit the contrary, as I know it from the Koran, give other Muslims the right to kill him.

    Stop this foolishness. I'm tired of hearing about the data-less hypothesis about his being a Muslim. Enough already!




    Thank You! icon_smile.gif
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    Aug 30, 2008 4:36 AM GMT

    So, ActiveAndFit, why did Christmas become a Federal holiday in 1870?


    MunchignZombie> the assertion that most Christian faiths are more tolerant than Islam is simply not true.

    At a fundamentalist level what you say is true, but most Christians are not fundamentalists (so there's room for interpretation, modernization and growth) and "Christian countries" are largely secular.
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    Aug 30, 2008 5:35 AM GMT
    caesarea4 said
    So, ActiveAndFit, why did Christmas become a Federal holiday in 1870?
    That's a good question and don't have an I exact answer right now, but I suspect there is more to it than meets the eye:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#U.S._Christmas_controversy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversy

    But the point I am proving here, is that the U.S. was not established a "Christian Nation" If it were, there would not be controversy in the first place. And also the founding fathers as I have pointed out, established no religious holidays despite popular belief, and some if you follow my links in the other thread, were downright "heretical" by fundamentalist definitions. It is one thing to say that religious "laws" find their way into our system, but another to say our laws were designed to be or favor Christians. Do you understand the distinction I am making here?

    BTW, I am now curious about how that decision was made 100 years or so after the fact. I am going to look into it later.
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    Aug 30, 2008 5:36 AM GMT
    He's not, so let's just leave it at that.
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    Aug 30, 2008 8:48 AM GMT
    So America has to choose between a Terrorist sleeper and a Commie plant? You're fucked! LOL

    P.S. Christianity an Islam are just about as intolerant as each other. Christianity just has less stricter laws.

    Has anybody heard of the Baha'i faith? It's like the UUC for muslims. That's what I'm talking about.
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    Aug 30, 2008 8:53 AM GMT
    VineyardHmo saidIf 9/11 didn't happen, does anyone think the "Muslim issue" would even be an issue this election? Why is does the Christian Right always try use scare tactics to promote their agenda (especially considering the Christian past)??? And, why does someone's religion play such a large role in American politics???


    Yes, it would be an issue even without 9/11. However, Obama is not a Muslim.

    The Christian Right always use scare tactics because that's all it has.

    Some people (most, unfortunately) are religious and religion is a common bond with which to relate to others who share the same or similar views.

    The growing influence of religion, particularly in government, is very disturbing. Rational thought is on the decline and it makes me shudder.
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    Sep 10, 2008 12:02 PM GMT
    VineyardHmo saidObama is "bible-thumping"?
    I cannot believe that Barak Obama called Governor Palin a “Pig with lipstick!” How sexist is that. Obama is NOT a guy I want to become president of the American nation with over 350 million people. He won’t even apologize for that clearly sexist remark! What is his problem? He wants to raise taxes, he will not allow oil drilling, and he has no concrete solutions to solve any problems. At least McCain and Palin know how to act appropriately and have presented concrete solutions like allowing more drilling for oil which will help reduce the price of gas in the future. They also proposed alternate and clean fuel solutions such as Wind/solar power and more. I am voting for McCain and Palin this year, they earned my vote.

    So what if Palin goes to a church that wants to pray for gay people. At least they do not preach Hate like Barak Obama's church does. I heard some clips of what Obama's Pastor said. He Calls us all racist! He condemns this country and all of us with it. Obama had listed to that guy preach nothing but racist hate for over 20 years and you think he does not believe what his pastor says is true? If He is not a Racist then why did he stay with Pastor White for 20 years?

    KD