VIDEO: Preacher Stands Against 'Gay Rights'...and RACIAL INTEGRATION. Spoiler Alert: HE'S ON OUR SIDE !

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    Oct 21, 2012 1:30 AM GMT
    FOR THE FIRST TWO MINUTES YOU'LL BE ANGRY.......but wait for it, THIS IS POWERFUL.

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    Oct 21, 2012 2:44 AM GMT
    That was awesome!
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    Oct 21, 2012 7:41 AM GMT
    Points well proven, but I feel like a good number of Americans probably won't get the significant irony of it.
  • RaggedyMan

    Posts: 7185

    Oct 21, 2012 7:54 AM GMT
    Haha that was cool. I told my friend yesterday that I feel like a black man living in the '60s. She got it...
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    Oct 21, 2012 12:45 PM GMT
    stevee90 saidPoints well proven, but I feel like a good number of Americans probably won't get the significant irony of it.


    that's because a good number of americans are dumb
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Oct 21, 2012 1:17 PM GMT
    stevee90 saidPoints well proven, but I feel like a good number of Americans probably won't get the significant irony of it.


    well, they shouldn't. there was nothing ironic about the video. dramatic irony only works when the audience is aware of what the featured character doesn't know; in this case it's the opposite. it's not verbal irony (though it gets close to it) because he's pretending, earnestly so, to be against the message. if there's no clear threshold of understanding that one doesn't mean what one says, it's not verbal irony because the expectation reversed cannot be predicated, which is a requisite function of irony. and finally, there's no situational irony here.
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    Oct 21, 2012 1:52 PM GMT
    I remember hearing that in jewish law or thought is the idea of making the effort to understand and FAIRLY state the other person's argument in a debate before stating your own. I think the world would be a much better place if this idea were common practice. I welcome anyone familiar with this idea to elaborate/comment on this.
  • onefortified

    Posts: 1630

    Oct 21, 2012 2:29 PM GMT
    Powerful speech. Just wonder how many people will actually be able to internalize that.
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    Oct 21, 2012 2:43 PM GMT
    onefortified saidPowerful speech. Just wonder how many people will actually be able to internalize that.


    Dont underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance.
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    Oct 21, 2012 2:59 PM GMT
    calibro said
    stevee90 saidPoints well proven, but I feel like a good number of Americans probably won't get the significant irony of it.


    well, they shouldn't. there was nothing ironic about the video. dramatic irony only works when the audience is aware of what the featured character doesn't know; in this case it's the opposite. it's not verbal irony (though it gets close to it) because he's pretending, earnestly so, to be against the message. if there's no clear threshold of understanding that one doesn't mean what one says, it's not verbal irony because the expectation reversed cannot be predicated, which is a requisite function of irony. and finally, there's no situational irony here.


    what are you, a theater student? icon_rolleyes.gif

    The essential feature of irony is the indirect presentation of a contradiction between an action or expression and the context in which it occurs. In the figure of speech, emphasis is placed on the opposition between the literal and intended meaning of a statement

    His speech is ironic in a sense that he sounds supportive of the anti-gay rights, when, really, he is expressing his disagreement towards the arguments anti-gay supporters are making that happen to be very similar to the ones made by the opposition leaders of anti-racial integration.

    It's ironic in another sense that people who have been making these arguments probably don't realize that they are talking like the same bigots who opposed racial integration decades ago. The preacher is making his point more convincing by presenting this irony he sees among anti-gay supporters.
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    Oct 21, 2012 3:00 PM GMT
    GREAT FOLLOW-UP from The Preacher here:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/after-more-than-15-million-views-pastor-speaks-o


    One of his comments:

    "My gratitude to each of you as we try to build a better world together, as we try to live into what Desmond Tutu once called the dreams of God for this world. Not for some people, but for all people."

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    Oct 21, 2012 4:53 PM GMT
    I got the feeling that the preacher's message went right over the head of many in the audience
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    Oct 21, 2012 5:43 PM GMT
    Very nice.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Oct 21, 2012 6:15 PM GMT
    stevee90 said
    calibro said
    stevee90 saidPoints well proven, but I feel like a good number of Americans probably won't get the significant irony of it.


    well, they shouldn't. there was nothing ironic about the video. dramatic irony only works when the audience is aware of what the featured character doesn't know; in this case it's the opposite. it's not verbal irony (though it gets close to it) because he's pretending, earnestly so, to be against the message. if there's no clear threshold of understanding that one doesn't mean what one says, it's not verbal irony because the expectation reversed cannot be predicated, which is a requisite function of irony. and finally, there's no situational irony here.


    what are you, a theater student? icon_rolleyes.gif

    The essential feature of irony is the indirect presentation of a contradiction between an action or expression and the context in which it occurs. In the figure of speech, emphasis is placed on the opposition between the literal and intended meaning of a statement

    His speech is ironic in a sense that he sounds supportive of the anti-gay rights, when, really, he is expressing his disagreement towards the arguments anti-gay supporters are making that happen to be very similar to the ones made by the opposition leaders of anti-racial integration.

    It's ironic in another sense that people who have been making these arguments probably don't realize that they are talking like the same bigots who opposed racial integration decades ago. The preacher is making his point more convincing by presenting this irony he sees among anti-gay supporters.


    no, i study english and rhetoric. irony is broken up into several categories that feature verbal, dramatic, and situational forms. the closest form of irony he represents is verbal irony, but for that to occur there has to be an expectation different from that of what comes out. by your logic, lying is an act of irony because someone promised they are telling you the truth about something, but they aren't. verbal irony is when there's a clear understanding that the intended comment is in fact not to be taken at its value. your own quote talks about the emphasis on the opposition between the literal and intended meaning of the statement: looking at the guy's speech, there is no opposition to his speech in what he is saying. he means what he says at face value, and then he uses that face value transitively as a false equivocation to something we don't support. if he were being satirical or presented to use the indication he wasn't being to be take at his word when he gave the opening oh his speech, then, yes, it would be irony.

    there is also nothing ironic about people who make that argument not realizing that they are repeating a bigoted stance. hitler preached vegetarianism; is it ironic for peta to do so too? irony, in this case, would have to be situational, not verbal, and to say it's ironic that people who are preaching values are repeating an argument on values we no longer support is to then take make an ethical argument on all values being absolute. outcomes based on relative understandings cannot be ironic because their causalities are relative, i.e., someone who is in the kkk would not find the argument ironic.

    what is ironic is that you seem to think you know the definition of irony when in fact you don't (a form a situational irony). here's some pictures to help you figure it out.

    1.png
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    Oct 21, 2012 7:25 PM GMT
    calibro said
    stevee90 said
    calibro said
    stevee90 saidPoints well proven, but I feel like a good number of Americans probably won't get the significant irony of it.


    well, they shouldn't. there was nothing ironic about the video. dramatic irony only works when the audience is aware of what the featured character doesn't know; in this case it's the opposite. it's not verbal irony (though it gets close to it) because he's pretending, earnestly so, to be against the message. if there's no clear threshold of understanding that one doesn't mean what one says, it's not verbal irony because the expectation reversed cannot be predicated, which is a requisite function of irony. and finally, there's no situational irony here.


    what are you, a theater student? icon_rolleyes.gif

    The essential feature of irony is the indirect presentation of a contradiction between an action or expression and the context in which it occurs. In the figure of speech, emphasis is placed on the opposition between the literal and intended meaning of a statement

    His speech is ironic in a sense that he sounds supportive of the anti-gay rights, when, really, he is expressing his disagreement towards the arguments anti-gay supporters are making that happen to be very similar to the ones made by the opposition leaders of anti-racial integration.

    It's ironic in another sense that people who have been making these arguments probably don't realize that they are talking like the same bigots who opposed racial integration decades ago. The preacher is making his point more convincing by presenting this irony he sees among anti-gay supporters.


    no, i study english and rhetoric. irony is broken up into several categories that feature verbal, dramatic, and situational forms. the closest form of irony he represents is verbal irony, but for that to occur there has to be an expectation different from that of what comes out. by your logic, lying is an act of irony because someone promised they are telling you the truth about something, but they aren't. verbal irony is when there's a clear understanding that the intended comment is in fact not to be taken at its value. your own quote talks about the emphasis on the opposition between the literal and intended meaning of the statement: looking at the guy's speech, there is no opposition to his speech in what he is saying. he means what he says at face value, and then he uses that face value transitively as a false equivocation to something we don't support. if he were being satirical or presented to use the indication he wasn't being to be take at his word when he gave the opening oh his speech, then, yes, it would be irony.

    there is also nothing ironic about people who make that argument not realizing that they are repeating a bigoted stance. hitler preached vegetarianism; is it ironic for peta to do so too? irony, in this case, would have to be situational, not verbal, and to say it's ironic that people who are preaching values are repeating an argument on values we no longer support is to then take make an ethical argument on all values being absolute. outcomes based on relative understandings cannot be ironic because their causalities are relative, i.e., someone who is in the kkk would not find the argument ironic.

    what is ironic is that you seem to think you know the definition of irony when in fact you don't (a form a situational irony). here's some pictures to help you figure it out.


    LOL your argument is so poorly executed and heavily biased by what you want to believe rather than facts that I can easily turn them against you. For example, with what you said on the last part, I can simply say: Well, the biggest irony here is that while you gloat about thousands of dollars you've invested on an English program, people reading what you've written would be able to see that you can't even define such basic concepts of English as an irony!

    By using the definitions you have so kindly provided, let me re-explain why what this preacher has said implies any irony. FIRST of all, there is a VERBAL irony in his speech, as people listening to him for the good chunk of his speech would think that he is making arguments towards why gay rights should be banned, when his true intention is not that at all. One of the most frequently used VERBAL irony is SARCASM, which this whole speech was about. It was sarcastic in a sense that the preacher was saying: "Hey, these are all the valid points that I've written down to show why gay rights should not be supported... but then again, these are the same points I've copied from the people who were against racial-integration".

    SECOND of all, there is an implied DRAMATIC irony in his speech, because he is telling everyone in the courtroom how equivalent in nature the arguments made for movements that attacked basic human rights for a minority group are. To further explain this, racial integration is a more accepted concept such that there are laws in most states that are written to protect the basic rights of people of all races. As such, to be racist in most states is considered unconstitutional, if not outright ignorant and unacceptable. On the other hand, homosexuality still has not received such fair recognition that the topic of racial integrity has been receiving for decades now - for the same reasons. Oh, and let's not forget some African American people who preach against homosexuals. It's DRAMATICALLY ironic in a sense that most of these people who would think discrimination based on race is unacceptable are using the same arguments that people who used to fight against rights that the homophobes now so strongly believe in have used previously. It is even more DRAMATICALLY ironic in a sense that some of these homophobes are in fact the minority groups that suffered before racial integration came to be.
  • tuffguyndc

    Posts: 4437

    Oct 21, 2012 7:36 PM GMT
    that was pretty awesome. he through me for a loop. i was like what the hell
  • metta

    Posts: 39134

    Oct 22, 2012 4:15 PM GMT
    Rev. Phil Snider, Missouri Pastor, Responds To Viral Gay Rights Speech

    "The last few hours have been a bit of a whirlwind for me, to say the least. I’m really heartened by all of the emails, Facebook messages, and kind words that I’ve received over the last 24 hours. As I read each one, I don’t see them simply as messages that seek to affirm a particular talk I gave on a particular night in Springfield, MO (as grateful as I am for such affirmations), but rather, I view them as a reflection of the thousands — indeed, the millions — of people who, on a daily basis, are journeying together because we believe that our world can be a better place, a fairer place, a more beautiful place — for all people and not just for some — and we won’t stop calling for a more beautiful world to be born. I’m also grateful for all of the people who have come before us — many whose names history won’t recall — who have allowed us to be where we are now, on whose shoulders we stand. These folks may not be famous — more times than not they are friends or family members who have bravely told their story, often in the face of major consequences. They are the ones who have brought us to this place, and we carry their stories with us as we try to build a a more just world."


    http://philsnider.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/city-council-speech/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/22/rev-phil-snider-gay-rights-speech-video-missouri-_n_2001007.html
  • metta

    Posts: 39134

    Oct 22, 2012 4:20 PM GMT
    A quote from his blog:

    . Brian McLaren offers the following perspective, which deeply resonates with my experiences as a pastor:

    I inherited a theology that told me [that] homosexuality is a sin, so although we should not condemn (i.e. stone them), we must tell people to “go and sin no more.” Believe me, for many years as a pastor I tried to faithfully uphold this position, and sadly, I now feel that I unintentionally damaged many people in doing so. Thankfully, I had a long succession of friends who were gay. And then I had a long succession of parishioners come out to me. They endured my pronouncements. They listened and responded patiently as I brought up the famous six or seven Bible passages again and again. They didn’t break ranks with me and in fact showed amazing grace and patience to me when I was showing something much less to them.

    Over time, I could not square their stories and experiences with the theology I had inherited. So I re-opened the issue, read a lot of books, re-studied the Scriptures, and eventually came to believe that just as the Western church had been wrong on slavery, wrong on colonialism, wrong on environmental plunder, wrong on subordinating women, wrong on segregation and apartheid (all of which it justified biblically) … we had been wrong on this issue. In this process, I did not reject the Bible. In fact, my love and reverence for the Bible increased when I became more aware of the hermeneutical assumptions on which many now-discredited traditional interpretations were based and defended. I was able to distinguish “what the Bible says” from “what this school of interpretation says the Bible says,” and that helped me in many ways.

    So – many years before I learned I had members of my own close family who were gay – my view changed. As you can imagine, when this issue suddenly became a live issue in my own family, I was relieved that I was already in a place where I would not harm them as (I’m ashamed to say this) I had harmed some gay people (other people’s sons and daughters) earlier in my ministry.

    http://brianmclaren.net/archives/blog/i-read-recently-about-your.html