********To Be Masculine or Feminine - A CHOICE???*****

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    Aug 21, 2007 12:15 PM GMT
    Here's my perspective, being considerably "closeted, not out" that one of the reasons why its hard for the world (in general)to embrace homosexuality is that a lot of gay guys out there act like a woman or being feminine. Like it is NOT appropriate for a guy to act feminine cause it is a characteristic of or appropriate or unique to women. Let's say, we were born Gay but how about the "Trannies"? So, how gay is too gay?
    Masculine - 1 a : MALE b : having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man
    2 : of, relating to, or constituting the gender that ordinarily includes most words or grammatical forms referring to males.

    I myself is longing for acceptance of my sexuality and i feel bad that most of the time, when i see a feminine gay guy , a tranny or a butch - it doesn't make me feel proud of myself being gay or (bi) :)

    If only all the gay guys will act masculine and the gay women will act like a real lady - I think we get a little more respect and acceptance. To act feminine , I think is a personal choice. A gay guy can act like Arnold Schwarzenegger if he wants to. A gay guy can choose to have sets of boobies only if he likes to ( can't say -I am born a tranny ) So, having the masculine/feminine traits can be corrected only if you are willing to.

    i think it will make a little difference if only all gay men and women will "Act" a little appropriate according to its gender.

    example: Most Straight guys like to watch women making out - but I dont think they like to watch two "Butches" making out.

    Check this out yourself.. a gay dude was practicing on how to walk like a woman.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UiCSw6wJyrg

    Most Straight Men and Women see it kinda Disturbing.

    for me - It's A CHOICE!!! If not, it can be corrected!!! What do you think?



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    Aug 21, 2007 12:24 PM GMT
    I think you're an asshole!
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    Aug 21, 2007 12:31 PM GMT
    Please look up self-loathing and be aware that that's the real choice.
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    Aug 21, 2007 1:28 PM GMT
    What an asinine post. I just swished over to the desk, reapplied my powder, and was checking my messages when I noticed it. At first, I thought a false eyelash had come unglued and I was misreading, but no, it really is as vacuous as my first reading suggested. I'm so cross I could swoon, if I weren't afraid of injuring myself falling off these heels
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    Aug 21, 2007 1:46 PM GMT
    hhhmmmm...

    Well... lets see here... I can cut a person 7 ways from sunday with a normal knife, but at the same time i can defend myself if someone holds a knife to my throat, am a fairly decent shot with a .22 and a .40sig, can give Jennifer Garner a run for her money working with sai, have a pet snake, 32 tattoos, have studied several martial arts, boxed, took ground fighting, grappling, and wrestling, know my way around a japanese katana, chinese jian and dao, live most of my week with bloody knuckles, shins, and bruised forearms from training...

    But at the same time my hips usually hurt from ballet class, and my back from jazz and hip hop class, when i talk you can tell that i am gay, and of those 32 tattoos 6 are of Madonna, 2 are of geisha, 1 is of a cluster of flowers, and 1 is of Hello Kitty.

    Of all of that... i can say that indeed i would probably take voice lessons so i didnt talk so nelly, but whats the point? I mean, if someone REALLY wants to make something of it there's a good chance that i can land a left hook right upper cut combination that will make it so that person cant talk at all for a while.
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    Aug 21, 2007 1:47 PM GMT
    I think you're completely off your rocker.

    Qualities appropriate or usually associated with a man, or even a woman, is completely subjective, given the development of society over the last couple of eons. Hell, even over the last 20 years.

    And to say that it can be corrected, and in addition the other comments you make in the body of your statement, seems to imply that acting effeminate is wrong.

    Personally, I believe everyone has a preference of how they act because they feel more comfortable being more masculine or feminine.

    And honey, just for the record, I was born gay, but it was my choice to accept and love myself for who I am. I happen to be more masculine, but I gots me my diva moments.

    *two snaps and a twist*
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    Aug 21, 2007 1:52 PM GMT
    Shouldn't that be "two snaps 'round in a z formation"?

    Where's my bitch manual?
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    Aug 21, 2007 1:55 PM GMT
    You have a very DANGEROUS thinking... You embrace external validation of the masses. You embrace homogeneity.

    Being gay has nothing to do with if the mass population, many of whom are ignorant, embraces you...

    You have to embrace yourself, away from the defination set up by others who has not a clue of who you are, what you feel, and what you go through... You have a right to be you, even if you are different...

    Who said a guy SHOULD act this way or that way...? If one throws this "should" or "should not" soley based on unquestioned and ignorant myths around us, pretty soon everyone would have to adhere to a whole list of "should's" and "shouldn't's"...

    When you get to that point, more and more people would be considered minorities and "undesirables" because it is reaching for ideal homogeneity... That is what the Nazi's foundation of "superior race" concept, and the rest was horrific history...
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:00 PM GMT
    You might as well go further and say...

    Guys should walk this way, go to church, be athtletic, have 2.5 kids, etc..

    Or Blacks should talk like this, dance this way, be musical...

    Asians should be good in math, wear glasses, and never speak up in public..

    Because this will let the public embrace us all the more!

    This is really scary thinking!
  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Aug 21, 2007 2:17 PM GMT
    Where is Scally and Chucky?
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:17 PM GMT
    McGay: Gurl.....whatev's....I do what I wan'!
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:23 PM GMT
    If anything, the public NEEDS to be exposed to every groups differeces in order to truly embrace them as positive contributors to society...

    A trannie can be as a productive citizen as anyone of us, so what is the big deal if they are different in appearance or demeaner?

    A long time ago (or not too long ago as some night argue) blakcs were not allowed to eat in the same area of a resturant as whites, some would not allow a Orthodox Jew to work in the same office...

    So if all Blacks bleach their skin and straighen their hair, and Orthodox Jews abandon thier traditional hair and clothing, that would have achieved the goal of being "embraced" by the general masses?

    You know what? No, it would just prepetuate ignorance... You would have to hide to be "accepted"...

    Differences between gourps does not hinder cohesivenss of a soceity. Ignorance does.
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:26 PM GMT
    okay - firstly, I am not going to jump down your throat here, because I have no reason to be defensive and I think you have a couple legitimate comments in here.

    I'm likely to dig myself a big crater here, but in some cases it IS a choice.

    There is a difference between a guy who is naturally somewhat feminine and one who was formerly rather masculine but then suddenly adopted certain stereotypical traits -- on some semi-deliberate level -- just to "fit in" with a perceived mold or peer group.

    I've seen this more times than I can count, and while sometimes I think it is the person letting out the traits they make have always had on the inside, I'm certain that in other situations, the person forced or played up these attributes. I've known three or four guys who DEVELOPED a lisp or specific stereotypically gay inflections only AFTER they came out. Especially if you've known a person for some time, that fake, forced campiness can be VERY abrasive.

    I think this is the phenomenon you are reacting to, rather than any innate tendencies to be masculine or feminine. I think it is the fakeness and contrived enhancement that is obnoxious.

    I've known a few fem guys (guys who I believe are naturally fem, and not fem due to some insecurity-driven need to be more like "other gay people") and have found them awesome people. They are certainly hard to find, however... and I think that is simply because it takes time and/or extraordinary circumstances to be comfortable in one's own skin.
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:29 PM GMT
    First, loving the responses.

    Second, and this may be harsh, but you're not even out. Where do you get off telling other gay people how they should act?

    Those guys who (whether chosen or not) come across as screaming queens have bigger ones than anyone cowering in their closet ever will. They have to face each day ready to keep their head up and fight to be who they are.

    I've personally always been able to 'pass' but I refuse to because doing so means I'm willing to let those "nelly queens" do my fighting for me. I for one would rather stand shoulder to shoulder with them because in the end, the people who hate us don't care how "masculine" you are - you still suck dick.

    Oh and PS - StripperRocco, you're my hero! (Gigaram swoons with colmdublin).
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:32 PM GMT
    "There is a difference between a guy who is naturally somewhat feminine and one who was formerly rather masculine but then suddenly adopted certain stereotypical traits -- on some semi-deliberate level -- just to "fit in" with a perceived mold or peer group."

    The guy could be putting up a show to pretend to be "masculine", and after coimng out and starting to feel comfortable about himself, chose to pet go the pretense...

    In any case, what would be wrong with all this even if some find this behavior abrasive...? It is their right to bewhatever they feel comfortable, and it does not say anything else about this person in every other meaningful ways....
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:34 PM GMT
    Exaxctly Gigaram!
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    Aug 21, 2007 2:55 PM GMT
    I hate to admit it but the first post reminds me of all the anguish I had growing up. I was so fearful I wasn't masculine enough and overly sensitive because of it. I realize now much later that I was not alone.

    Anyway, I'm much better now. LOL However, it makes me sad that not everyone gets past that stage. It's a miserable state to be in.

    For any who have already completed the path of self acceptance in this regard, I applaud you. For myself, I'm still on that path. I may have my occasional setbacks but at least I'm not sitting off on the side. I'm steadily moving forward. Hopefully the many excellent responses here will help others to move forward as well.
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Aug 21, 2007 2:58 PM GMT
    It is, by and large, not a choice.

    Masculinity and femininity are the two dichotomous categories that we currently use to describe, define, and qualify our human expressions. Through what is identified as patriarchy, expressions of the former are valued as better than the latter, with the latter receiving lip-service honorifics and only vicarious power.

    It is not a choice; rather, we (preferably) express ourselves in the ways we identify with and that make us feel true to ourselves. These expressions reflect our innate identifications, how we style and seek to style ourselves (seeking not being the same as choosing).

    I have had major difficulties dealing with flamboyant men and accepting them as men; during my college years, it dawned on me (through me?) that these difficulties were actually baseless and reflected my difficulty in accepting that I am homosexual, homophilic, and gay. It reflected my internal homophobia.

    I worked to suppress my expressions when I was in high school when my conflict with my sexual identity was at its worst. My expressions include a lightness of touch with my fingers, my sitting position, and my voice (I have a fairly soft voice manner, particularly on the telephone). Since then, I have worked on being more open to how I express myself and to allow my expressions as they come to me.

    Simultaneously, I seek other expressions because of their apparent physical comfortability and because they work for me mentally.

    Let yourself express yourself as you are, and do the same with others.
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    Aug 21, 2007 3:31 PM GMT
    One of the saddest and most traumatic parts of my own coming out experience was the rudeness, preachiness, and self righteousness of other gay people. Because, everyone knows, going through a coming out experience makes everyone their own unequivocal expert on all things gay. If people had even been just a little more patient and thoughtful, the whole process would have been much easier.

    It's amazing to read through some of the responses on here, to see how many people didn't make any real effort at all to understand the perspective of the original poster, much less show a little patience and attempt to realize that his original intention was not to be malicious.

    One can learn many things here. And I still find it saddening.
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    Aug 21, 2007 3:35 PM GMT
    "If only all the gay guys will act masculine and the gay women will act like a real lady - I think we get a little more respect and acceptance."

    It doesn't take a team of NASA scientists to figure out that this guy wants to be the majorette in the apology parade. It's interesting to read the responses in this thread to see who's competing with him for that position.
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    Aug 21, 2007 3:39 PM GMT
    I'll unabashedly admit to that, McGay. I'm not sure I want to risk projecting where you are going with that. The last time I checked my own values system, humility didn't switch to the "faults" list.


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    Aug 21, 2007 3:54 PM GMT
    Ital, I'll admit, I took a harsh line. I believe I said as much in my initial response. And I recognize that I always have to keep my opinions regarding being out/not out in check since I know my experience is atypical (happily out at 15). But that said, I draw the line when someone starts beating down on others for being who they are (choice or not).
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    Aug 21, 2007 4:01 PM GMT
    Many of the behaviors that are deemed "masculine" or "feminine" are temporal social constructions. Really weird and stupid ones too, if you can stand back and observe them from a distance. To that extent, following them is more or less a choice. But to then make the leap to call following them a moral imperative... that just does not compute.

    BTW: I had a few dates with a very athletic guy who was just a bit too... "swishy" for my taste, in the end. (OK, way too young for me, too.) I couldn't help noticing that when he was getting a good (ahem) horizontal workout, his voice got a lot deeper and more natural sounding. It made me smile.
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    Aug 21, 2007 4:02 PM GMT
    Exactly Gigaram.

    The tread starter has assigned the blame of his own internal homophobia to others who are different from his perspective.

    "If only all the gay guys will act masculine and the gay women will act like a real lady - I think we get a little more respect and acceptance."

    OR:

    "i think it will make a little difference if only all gay men and women will "Act" a little appropriate according to its gender."

    AND:

    "example: Most Straight guys like to watch women making out - but I dont think they like to watch two "Butches" making out."

    These statements are simplistic, judgemental, ignorant, offensive, and does not deserve humility. It is beating down on others who he perceives as "inapropraite" just because they do not match his personal perspective.

    Internal homophobia, is still, homophobia.
  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Aug 21, 2007 4:03 PM GMT
    It your choice . I was feminie, weakling and a sissy as a kid but grow more masculine as I get older. Nobody force me to. I dont chose to be masculine to please anyone but myself. I dont give a darn if society accepted me or not. I personally find being masculine who I trully am in the inside. I was ridicule, make fun off, bully and laugh at when I was a sissy kid. Those day I have this vindictive ideas in my heart that I will grow up and be a tough guys who could beat up all this SOB. I ALWAYS wanted to be masculine. Everything about me now is masculine in nature, clothing, the sport I play, my sense of adventure, unless you think my inclination toward art, singing, dancing and thearthe is feminine. I hardly have any girl friend outside of work. I just dont have nothing in common or to talk about with them.

    I am not sexually attracted to feminie guys but that didn't mean I hate them or dont like them. I respected them. They have a right to be who they want to be . Just like I have a right to change myself in order to be who I truly am and be a happier person.