Does spending 5 years in a Vietnamese prison

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 06, 2008 11:28 AM GMT
    really make you a "war hero"?
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Sep 06, 2008 1:03 PM GMT
    No, and as a Veteran myself, I think it is a bunch of baloney.

    Here is a Video and group that is trying to look into it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g

    I hope this gains some traction.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Sep 06, 2008 1:17 PM GMT
    Well it isn't spending years in a Vietnam prison, it was McCain's whole experience and the selection of those prisoners who were ultimately released.

    Give McCain his due... what he went through was very difficult. Imagine any one of us in prison and tortured for 5 years. He handled it very well and
    had served a long and full life in a positive manner. He had a unique and
    intriguing approach to War that most of us probably can't understand.

    Now does that mean he "deserves" to be President? Certainly not!
    It means he has had compelling experiences that should be factored in
    when considering a Presidential choice... along with his positions, history,
    views....and the Palin woman.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Sep 06, 2008 4:29 PM GMT
    Republicans hate Democratic veterans.

    Last year, I was in Afghanistan. Every Friday and Saturday night, about a dozen of us would get together to play some poker. One night, a few people showed up early and the table was set. While we were waiting for the other half to show, some of us were talking politics. I was the lone Democratic voice. After round and round of discussion, all of it mutual and respectful, my roommate came out to tell me that, "Anyone who serves in the military as a Democrat is stupid." I didn't respond as I was dumbfounded at his statement. Later on, I thought about it some more and got really angry. Republicans criticize Democrats on military support matters in Congress, but yet, when a Democrat serves alongside in the military, they still have room to criticize a Democrat. Unreal.

    I also love how ignorant Republican servicemembers are on McCain's voting record towards the military and veterans. It was brought to my attention by a Republican servicemember in 2000 that he has a poor record of supporting troops, something that even surprised me. I'm willing to bet that that same person is now proudly supporting McCain, bumper sticker and all.
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    Sep 06, 2008 4:46 PM GMT
    Like anything else, it makes no sense at all when reduced to a one-line sound bite.
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    Sep 06, 2008 4:51 PM GMT
    Koaa2 saidNo, and as a Veteran myself, I think it is a bunch of baloney.

    Here is a Video and group that is trying to look into it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g

    I hope this gains some traction.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g
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    Sep 06, 2008 5:11 PM GMT
    NoNameGuy, you wouldn't last five minutes before you would disgrace your country in the Hanoi Hilton. I'm not so sure I could last either. What was heroic was the fact that he flew missions over North Vietnam, then refused an early release because his dad's an admiral in charge of the Pacific theater.
    John McCain was required to draw on strengths none of us could imagine.

    That's heroic.

  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Sep 06, 2008 6:33 PM GMT
    I, for one, have no problems with Senator McCain's service and his endurance as a POW. It's a no-brainer that he was willing to die for his country. The only problem I have is how it is being played as THEE qualifier for him to be the President. Contrastly, it was the Republicans and the Swiftboat vets campaign that did all it could to discredit John Kerry's military service. I find a very unfair division that Republicans create between Republican veterans and Democratic veterans. The "static" that John McCain referred to in his speech the other night was directly aimed at a Democratic veteran who is successfully organizing a veterans against Iraq war policy campaign.

    All service is honorable, regardless of the political ideology that the servicemembers choose. But be careful to realize and fully and honestly understand that service and heroism alone does not put food on the tables of the foreclosing houses that Americans have to work for daily. It was John McCain that said, "Perhaps they should take on a second or third job" when he was asked what Americans should do if they are facing the prospect of losing their homes.

    "Country First": Our people ARE our country and the current policies do no empower them to make this country first. Republicans would truly make "Country First" a reality if they would take the back seat and "own their failures."
  • SkyMiles

    Posts: 963

    Sep 06, 2008 6:47 PM GMT
    I think so, sure. I think anyone who sacrifices their lives or years of their lives in service to their country or in genuine service to others is a hero.

    Having said that, service of any kind at one point in one's life does not give license to commit crimes, or do or say whatever you want to without criticism or analysis as McCain's camp seems to think. It certainly doesn't mean, IN ITSELF, that he should be president. Randy 'Duke' Cunningham, was a war-hero too, then went on to become one of the most notoriously corrupt congressmen in American history. I doubt anyone would argue that he should be running the country.

    McCain did a great thing 30 years ago, but that guy's fallen awfully far since then.
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    Sep 06, 2008 6:48 PM GMT
    What I am writing is not necessarily in relation to John McCain, but

    coolarmydude said"Country First": Our people ARE our country and the current policies do no empower them to make this country first. Republicans would truly make "Country First" a reality if they would take the back seat and "own their failures."

    When I hear this "Country First" I get the impression that they are talking about the Government and the small percentage that approve of it ..

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/108010/Bush-Congress-Supreme-Court-Near-Historical-Low-Approval.aspxAccording to the June 9-12 Gallup Poll, 30% of Americans approve of the job George W. Bush is doing as president. That figure is two percentage points better than his personal low rating of 28%, which he has received four times in the past two months. The all-time low approval rating for any president in Gallup annals is 22% for Harry Truman in 1952.


    I would rather hear, "America First", or "People First" or even "Constitution first"
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Sep 06, 2008 6:59 PM GMT
    Now don't get me wrong that Democrats are partly to blame with the plight of Americans and I will also say that Obama is no saint. But I would at least work with what we have in Obama rather than McCain and the down-right ugly rhetoric of the Republican Party.

    A lot of what Obama says about what America needs to do to become a better society and a stronger nation resonates with what I already felt on my own. John McCain leaves me feeling nauseous, dirty and used.


    Strength builds from the foundation up - everyone is empowered. Under the Republicans, they would rather strength trickle down.
  • dfrourke

    Posts: 1062

    Sep 06, 2008 7:09 PM GMT
    well, I dated a Vietnamese guy for about 3 years...and after surviving that relationship I felt like I could do anything!

    I'm kidding...[mostly].

    - David
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    Sep 06, 2008 7:09 PM GMT
    NoNameGuy saidreally make you a "war hero"?


    Does spending 2 years in senate really make you qualified for presidency?

    Fucking Hillary all the way betches. Hillary.
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    Sep 06, 2008 7:18 PM GMT
    Sometimes I think we get too bogged down in semantics. Most of us probably have somewhat differing definitions on what a "hero" is, and I think debating those minute differences is a waste of time and overlooks the big picture.

    Although I'm not a McCain supporter, I certainly view his service as heroic. C'mon. The guy was a POW for, I think, five years --and he REFUSED RELEASE after a year-and-a-half because he thought it would demoralize his fellow captives.

    If that's not a heroic gesture, what is?

    (But I'm still not voting for him.)
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    Sep 06, 2008 7:38 PM GMT
    coolarmydude said A lot of what Obama says about what America needs to do to become a better society and a stronger nation resonates with what I already felt on my own. John McCain leaves me feeling nauseous, dirty and used.

    Strength builds from the foundation up - everyone is empowered. Under the Republicans, they would rather strength trickle down.

    This is very much the case as far as Obama. I have always had a gut feeling that Obama if nothing else, was a sincere and noble man. It wasn't until I started googling and looking up stuff that I realized really how smart and capable he is.

    I researched his 10 years in state/U.S. senate to see how he voted and how he worked to get things done and found some interesting things. He can be controversial in the way he votes and thinks things through making sure to hear what other people have to say:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/17/politics/main2369157.shtmlObama was known in the Illinois Capitol as a consistently liberal senator who reflected the views of voters in his Chicago district. He helped reform the state death penalty system and create tax breaks for the poor while developing a reputation as someone who would work with critics to build consensus.
    ...
    Gibbs noted Obama's leadership on legislation requiring police to videotape interrogations in murder cases. It started out as a controversial idea but ended up passing the Senate unanimously.

    Allies and opponents alike say he listened to those who disagreed, cooperated with Republicans and incorporated other people's suggestions for improving legislation.

    "He was looked upon by members of both parties as someone whose view we listened carefully to," said Republican state Sen. Kirk Dillard from Hinsdale, Ill.
    ...
    That's one reason Illinois business groups gave Obama a low rating, while labor groups praised him. But even Obama's allies say he refused to become a rubber stamp for their legislation.

    "He always wants to understand an issue and think it through," said Roberta Lynch, deputy director for Council 31 of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. "You have to make your case no matter who you are."
    ...
    On the other hand, Obama parted company with gun control advocates when he backed a measure to let retired police officers and military police carry concealed weapons.
    ...
    During his last two years, Democrats controlled the chamber and he was the go-to guy on a variety of issues. He helped pass legislation overhauling Illinois' troubled capital punishment system and was a key figure in requiring a massive statewide study of traffic stops to look for signs of racial profiling. Although police groups opposed the legislation, they say Obama listened to their concerns and accepted some of their suggestions to improve the bill.

    Even when he was in the political minority, Obama sometimes played a critical role. He helped write one of the rare ethics laws in a state known for government corruption and worked on welfare reform with Republicans.


    Illinois current Statewide Enda-like law originated with him but did not actually get passed until he moved to U.S. Senate.

    Its rare to find a politician that will always agree with you so it is important to at least find one that will listen to you. I would look forward to emailing him about things that concern me.
  • SkyMiles

    Posts: 963

    Sep 06, 2008 8:41 PM GMT
    I might just be reading into this thread as cutting into McCain's military service, and hope that's NOT the case. It could be me just being thick-headed again.

    Attacking an opponent's strength, a classic Karl Rove move, is VILE to say the least. McCain deserves proper recognition as a war hero just like John Kerry deserved his. Like Max Cleland deserved his. Nobody should have something noble that they've done crapped on.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Sep 06, 2008 8:44 PM GMT
    Colbert_Nation saidI might just be reading into this thread as cutting into McCain's military service, and hope that's NOT the case. It could be me just being thick-headed again.

    Attacking an opponent's strength, a classic Karl Rove move, is VILE to say the least. McCain deserves proper recognition as a war hero just like John Kerry deserved his. Like Max Cleland deserved his. Nobody should have something noble that they've done crapped on.



    What Colbert said is ABSOLUTELY true. I totally agree!
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    Sep 06, 2008 8:49 PM GMT
    About 7 years ago, I visited Vietnam for a month. Went to Hanoi. There's a big lake in the middle of the city.....the lake that McCain fell into and the Vietnamese rescued him from.

    At the time, I think McCain was toying with the idea of running for president.

    The Veitnamese people were so PROUD that they saved a man who might become president of the USA.

    How ironic.
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    Sep 06, 2008 8:52 PM GMT
    I did not really even give thought to the first question. But I would not dismiss someone's service. As far as what a hero is in general, I think it is about someone who sacrifices for "a greater good" or even puts their interests aside for someone else.
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    Sep 06, 2008 8:53 PM GMT
    You don't know what McCain went through as a POW. He may have helped keep other POW's alive. He may have done things and honored his country while in prison.....you simply don't know.

    As I said in an earlier post about 9/11.........there were so many unsung heroes who helped out, sacrificed, suffered alongside others who were also suffering.......the dedication and honor of some people was amazing.

    A hero is anyone who stands up and does his thing despite the shit that may be swirling around him.
  • Hunter9

    Posts: 1039

    Sep 06, 2008 8:59 PM GMT
    can someone confirm these stories that McCain tells? the guy is in a POW camp, how do we know he wasn't (and still isn't) delusional?

    and even if all that was true, then great, McCain has a high tolerance for pain... I'm so fucking impressed.
  • PRDGUY

    Posts: 641

    Sep 06, 2008 9:01 PM GMT
    coolarmydude saidRepublicans hate Democratic veterans.

    Last year, I was in Afghanistan. Every Friday and Saturday night, about a dozen of us would get together to play some poker. One night, a few people showed up early and the table was set. While we were waiting for the other half to show, some of us were talking politics. I was the lone Democratic voice. After round and round of discussion, all of it mutual and respectful, my roommate came out to tell me that, "Anyone who serves in the military as a Democrat is stupid." I didn't respond as I was dumbfounded at his statement. Later on, I thought about it some more and got really angry. Republicans criticize Democrats on military support matters in Congress, but yet, when a Democrat serves alongside in the military, they still have room to criticize a Democrat. Unreal.

    I also love how ignorant Republican servicemembers are on McCain's voting record towards the military and veterans. It was brought to my attention by a Republican servicemember in 2000 that he has a poor record of supporting troops, something that even surprised me. I'm willing to bet that that same person is now proudly supporting McCain, bumper sticker and all.


    Republican here and I thank every member of armed forces who defend my freedom no matter their party affiliation...

    I think HNDSMKANSAN said it best.

    Well it isn't spending years in a Vietnam prison, it was McCain's whole experience and the selection of those prisoners who were ultimately released.

    Give McCain his due... what he went through was very difficult. Imagine any one of us in prison and tortured for 5 years. He handled it very well and
    had served a long and full life in a positive manner. He had a unique and
    intriguing approach to War that most of us probably can't understand.

    Now does that mean he "deserves" to be President? Certainly not!
    It means he has had compelling experiences that should be factored in
    when considering a Presidential choice... along with his positions, history,
    views....and the Palin woman.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Sep 06, 2008 11:02 PM GMT
    And the same things could be said about Obama as a community organizer. Through his active volunteerism, he met the diversity of America and saw what their needs are. Let's give him his due.
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    Sep 06, 2008 11:08 PM GMT
    yep