I'm a little biased here, because I don't care too much for the rainbow. But nonetheless, do gays really need a flag anymore? I'm all for giving props to the gays who came before me and advanced the culture and all, but it's kinda tacky at this point. It served a purpose back in the proverbial day, but now I think its just unnecessary and cheesy. And its really, really, really, umm...GAY!!! Not "guy humping guy" gay, more like "show tunes and drag queens" gay.
If we need a flag, maybe a new flag with a silhouette of two guys humping? I'd like that alot more than the rainbow. Thats a bumper sticker I'd be willing to put on my car.
What about the Lesbians, Bisexuals, Transgender people and Allies?
The rainbow is a potent symbol because all the colours are represented equally. There is also a subtle connotation about equality of colour, and the synergy of diversity.
chitown_mofo saidI'm a little biased here, because I don't care too much for the rainbow. But nonetheless, do gays really need a flag anymore? I'm all for giving props to the gays who came before me and advanced the culture and all, but it's kinda tacky at this point. It served a purpose back in the proverbial day, but now I think its just unnecessary and cheesy. And its really, really, really, umm...GAY!!! Not "guy humping guy" gay, more like "show tunes and drag queens" gay.
If we need a flag, maybe a new flag with a silhouette of two guys humping? I'd like that alot more than the rainbow. Thats a bumper sticker I'd be willing to put on my car.
ok, bucky beaver, come up with a serious alternative.
What about the segment of the gay population, which is huge that is "drag queens and showtunes gay"? I love both and I love the rainbow flag. Plus, how do you outgrow the need for a community symbol? That is like saying we've outgrown the American Flag or perhaps we can just make a new one of a silhouette of an American Soldier killing something?
A flag with a clear cut image is useless, but a symbolic image like the rainbow can be interpreted different ways by any person who views it. You look at it and see GAY, which I can't find a problem with, means it's doing its job. I look at it and see a rainbow that represents the many facets of the gay community: lesbians, transgender, gay, feminine, masculine, bi, straight acting, gay acting, drag queens, showtunes, horny immature assholes, etc:. Your flag represents one side. I for one, do not want to be represented by a flag that paints me only as a guy humper: there is so much more to me than that; I am a variable rainbow of mutli facets!
Furthermore, these silhouettes, would they have short cropped hair like African Americans, or long hair emphasizing Caucasion attributes? Would they be tall and lanky or short and buff....could they be fat? See what I mean, your flag can only represent a very small part of a huge, diverse, and colorful community. A community that has made huge strides in the past several years in large part because of PRIDE and because of our symbol. Furthermore, the pioneers of the LBGT community were "GAY". I mean, drag queen and showtunes gay, the kind of people who could not hide under the curtain of social acceptability like you can. People who had to celebrate their differences not hide them. What better way to celebrate such startling apparent features than with a startling apparent symbol?
Really, it fills me with PRIDE and joy everytime I see it and it fills enemies to my loving who I want with contempt and indifference. Although not all, it is a logical, non offensive symbol. I think it's prominence and the fact that it is so unintimidating serves to soften contempt and indifference from outsiders
Unfortunately, the gay community has seen an upsurge of gay anti gay men. People who try to cut a swath between themselves and everyone else in their community who doesn't fit their ideal in much the same way society originally treated the entire gay community. I think it's foolish. You can be as masculine and discreet as you want, but you are still gay and what you do is still not fully accepted by large portions of society. By what you do: I mean, love men. The sexual aspect of homosexuality is still very much a taboo in society. Trust me, person, your sexuality is more acceptable in society than your sexual practices.
It's true that the term gay refers to men who hump men like you, but again, I think its true prominence lies with obviously gay individuals who can't hide in the darkness and don't desire too. They'd rather stand out like a rainbow. They'd rather be respected for their varying abilities and talents. Unlike your suggestion, the rainbow inspires respect and thought. Your flag would just outline what we do in the bedroom, which is noone's business.
That is like saying we've outgrown the American Flag or perhaps we can just make a new one of a silhouette of an American Soldier killing something?
Yes, thats a real good analogy, because being gay is so much like a country. And of course, our heartless American killing machine soldiers...If it wasnt for people sacrificing their lives for this counrty, you wouldn't have the freedom to wave your tacky flag.
there is so much more to me than that; I am a variable rainbow of mutli facets!
Yeah, ok. Good luck with that. I'm beginning to see the correlation between the tackiness of the flag and of the people who love it.
Unfortunately, the gay community has seen an upsurge of gay anti gay men.
So now I'm anti-gay cuz i think the rainbow flag is cheesy? So I guess if i dont like stereotypical gay things, Im anti-gay?
I think its true prominence lies with obviously gay individuals who can't hide in the darkness and don't desire too. They'd rather stand out like a rainbow.
So in addition to being anti-gay, because I dont like a rainbow flag, now Im a closet case who wants to hide who i am?
The flag is tacky. Period. That's not an anti-gay statement nor does it reflect someone wanting to 'hide in the darkness'. And the fact that you took my proposed humping flag seriously shows you aren't all that sharp. The point is, we're past the point of needing to wave a flag around, especially one as ridiculous as the rainbow.
I had an opinion and I stated it, except unlike you, I backed up my opinions with reasons. I exactly told you why I like the flag, why we have the flag, and why we need the flag.
You just said it's tacky and we don't need it. Why is it tacky? Why don't we need it? And, BACK IN THE DAY? People are still fighting for your rights as a gay man today.
Community, if you knew what community meant, you'd know, a country is a community and that gays definitely represent a community. Even if it didn't, the American flag represents us as a global super power....people already know that so why do we need it? Because, it inspires people, it represents a past and a future, and it binds us all together. The gay flag does the same thing for the gay community no matter how tacky you think it is.
Your post above was not necessary, but what I expected, more personal attacks, no real reasons to back your ranting. Your original post wasn't a joke or sarcastic. You said what you meant to say. The only reason you tried to pawn it off as a joke is because of how foolish my post made you look.
I'm glad you read it and for the record: I never called you anti gay or closeted, but you Original Post and all the anger you displayed towards me, your community, and our tacky flag did that for you. If you reply to this, don't rant. Try to back up your opinions with reasons. Otherwise, you'll only make a bigger fool of yourself.
It's time for a little history lesson for those of you that think the gay flag is tacky. I must admit that when I see it that I usually associate it with gay fanaticism and eccentric in your face homosexuals. But when you know where it stems from it truly is beautiful and impressively clever.
The rainbow flag is associated with the song "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" famously performed by Judy Garland in The Wizard of Oz. The GLBT community adopted the rainbow flag as a symbol of hope, inclusiveness and yearning for equality. Maybe some of you are too young but over two decades ago it was common for gays to casually refer to themselves or each other as a "Friend of Dorothy." Not sure if it was for the sake of humor or as a way to publicly talk about their sexuality in a sort of code for discretion. If you've ever heard of this you now know what I'm talking about. I'm going to paste a copy of the of the song "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" so you can see how beautiful the message is when our community decided to create the rainbow flag as a representation for our community in 1978. It's been simplified over the years for easier production by omitting one and then eventually two colors but it still looks good.
You can see how the song can be interpreted for a minority that 'dares and hopes' for a time of equality. It's quite lovely. To want to ditch the flag and its message would be such a slap in the face to the few, special and brave individuals of the 70's that had the courage to initiate what is now considered a symbol recognized nationally and globally. I'm not big on any flag whatsoever but I do have a lot of respect for its message.
When you see the flag associate it with this. Think of how it was related to the start of the rights and awareness movement. A movement which is finally allowing us rights like heterosexuals have. Lyrics:
Somewhere over the rainbow Way up high There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby
Somewhere over the rainbow Skies are blue And the dreams that you dare to dream really do come true
Someday I'll wish upon a star And wake up where the clouds are far behind me Where troubles melt like lemon drops A way above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me
Somewhere over the rainbow Blue birds fly Birds fly over the rainbow Why then oh why can't I?
If happy little blue birds fly beyond the rainbow Why oh why can't I?
And then there are the drag queens that jealously covet Judy Garland's glittery red high heeled shoes with lacy white ankle socks. That's where GG comes in.
chitown_mofo saidIf we need a flag, maybe a new flag with a silhouette of two guys humping?
What a fucking small view of what gay is...
The fact I shove my cock up some guys arse does not make me gay.
Does the fact that I can fall in love with a man, find his touch to be reassuring, his smell to be comforting, to spend time with him forfilling, does that not go towards making me a gay man?
Or is it only the fact that I put my cock in some guys arse make me gay?
Thanks for the edu-ma-cation everybody... i never really gave the rainbow flag much thought, however when I see the flag on a storefront or some other business, I feel rest-assured.
That is just your taste. And there is no arguing taste. So give that up. Especially since you haven't seriously offered anything to replace it.
The point is, we're past the point of needing to wave a flag around, especially one as ridiculous as the rainbow.
How do you substantiate that we are past the point of needing to wave a flag? One of the first thing this country did was make a flag...and we are still using it. And flags are a very common device used by groups.
As I asked above, what would you suggest in place of the flag?
So far, you have been long on criticism and short on creativity
Well... the rainbow flag offends my artistic sensibilities, (LOL sorry GG). But that said, I don't care if it represents GLBT. It does portray diversity very well and puts out the message that no single 'color' is really 'different'.
i.e. no matter how 'freaky' you are to other, you'll always know there are other freaks out there fighting for the same things you are.
That is just your taste. And there is no arguing taste. So give that up. Especially since you haven't seriously offered anything to replace it.
The point is, we're past the point of needing to wave a flag around, especially one as ridiculous as the rainbow.
How do you substantiate that we are past the point of needing to wave a flag? One of the first thing this country did was make a flag...and we are still using it. And flags are a very common device used by groups.
As I asked above, what would you suggest in place of the flag?
So far, you have been long on criticism and short on creativity
NO REPLACEMENT! THATS MY WHOLE POINT. WE DONT NEED A EFFING FLAG TO BE GAY!!! ITS RIDICULOUS. BEING GAY IS NOT LIKE BEING A COUNTRY!!
You dont wave a flag because your college educated
You dont wave a flag because you are an accountant
You dont wave a flag because you like fishing
Its a dumb concept. To have a flag to represent that your gay. To have it pasted all over every single establishment that may cater to gays.
As for being tacky, the dude who said he was a 'multi-faceted rainbow of many colors' and the one who was posting 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow' Lyrics only support my point.
I have always thought the flag stood for unity. Even for the parts of our community that I may not understand or relate to, (transgender, drag, lesbianism). That doesn't mean that I do not like those other facets of our community. It's just not my bag. They are still part of our total, "alternative lifestyle" though. Thus are shown respect and accecpt-ive-ism, (is that a word) by our flag. Edit here... Oh yea...
"You dont wave a flag because your college educated" What are you high or something? How many college or professional sport team flags have you seen on cars or homes??? DUH!
"You dont wave a flag because you are an accountant" Ok, now I don't think I've seen one of these, butt I don't know many accountants.
"You dont wave a flag because you like fishing" I'd have to argue this one also, cause I work w/ALOT of fisherman and have seen a few w/hooks on them and some silly comment about "Fisherman have better bait".
chitown_mofo said NO REPLACEMENT! THATS MY WHOLE POINT. WE DONT NEED A EFFING FLAG TO BE GAY!!! ITS RIDICULOUS. BEING GAY IS NOT LIKE BEING A COUNTRY!!
You dont wave a flag because your college educated
People do wear rings to show that they are a graduate. It isnt a flag but it is an identification.
You dont wave a flag because you are an accountant
You dont wave a flag because you like fishing
Its a dumb concept. To have a flag to represent that your gay. To have it pasted all over every single establishment that may cater to gays.
As for being tacky, the dude who said he was a 'multi-faceted rainbow of many colors' and the one who was posting 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow' Lyrics only support my point.
We dont get discriminated against because of the above examples. So your analogies are bogus. We have been forced to coalesce as a group to protect ourselves.
As a symbol for a gay-friendly business, it is especially useful.
I actually do not mind the rainbow flag at all and understand the value and purpose of it. I think it is good to have something that points out an accepting area, a safe space. You automatically know you will be welcomed when you go into a place that has one and that is important.
But to play devils advocate, what if heterosexual people had a flag to point out that there was a heterosexual community, a safe space for straights? Would that offend anyone, or be welcomed? Or is there already a symbol that really represents that out there?
chitown_mofo said You dont wave a flag because your college educated
You dont wave a flag because you are an accountant
You dont wave a flag because you like fishing
Nor do you get attacked for any of those three (barring the Khmer Rouge's persecution of perceived intellectuals during the Cambodian genocide and possible Greenpeace demonstrations).
The acceptability of being gay (and of gay sex) comes through the very people you're deriding. Drag queens were at the forefront fighting against the oppressive police forces during the initial "militant" gay front. They fought for you; what the f**k have you done for them?
The acceptability of gaydom, of being gay, and of gay sex may have yet to gain the critical mass that preempts any future Anita Bryant-Florida-Miami-Dade rights turn-arounds.
As for the Armed Forces comment: The US Armed Forces do not protect US civil liberties unless directed to do so by their chains-of-command. Their primary objective is to secure US territorial sovereignty and the safety of US citizens, not conceive, develop, or secure the liberties that are then entrenched within US ideals.
Youth today know nothing about our history and have no appreciation for it or our rich culture.
Listen up KID! Know your history! If you you truly knew more about our history then you can appreciate it more!
Thank God when I was your age I listened and learned all I could about our culture from the guys that lived through the riots, the arrests and the bashing!
We need the flag as a salute to Gwen the tranny that was brutally murdered, for Mathew Shepard who was abushed and beaten and affixed to fense in below zero temparture!
That's why we need the flag! To salute those who were here and lost their lives just for being how they are!
This is just man opinion! Your kids today! You scare me by your lack knowledge and appreciation for our history!
Caslon6000 said We dont get discriminated against because of the above examples. So your analogies are bogus. We have been forced to coalesce as a group to protect ourselves.
As a symbol for a gay-friendly business, it is especially useful.
So getting discriminated against means you should have a flag!?!?!? To 'coalesce as a group'? We need a flag for this? Maybe you do, but I find it kind of ridiculous that we need to have places where people feel it is obligatory to hang a bright rainbow flag over everything just to feel that its gay friendly or 'safe'.
Im gay and its somewhat insulting to my intelligence that places that dont discriminate against me should have some bright obnoxious flag hanging in them. There are plenty of bars, shops etc that are very gay friendly or even completely gay that dont have this ostentatious thing plastered all over. Its time to let it go, its outdated and serves to separate gays from the rest of the real world.
Its time to abolish this idea of 'The Gay Community' and start living as gays in the communities we live in. Not act like hermits who can only exist under the 'safe' shadow of a rainbow flag.
chitown_mofo saidSo getting discriminated against means you should have a flag!?!?!? To 'coalesce as a group'? We need a flag for this? Maybe you do, but I find it kind of ridiculous that we need to have places where people feel it is obligatory to hang a bright rainbow flag over everything just to feel that its gay friendly or 'safe'.
Im gay and its somewhat insulting to my intelligence that places that dont discriminate against me should have some bright obnoxious flag hanging in them. There are plenty of bars, shops etc that are very gay friendly or even completely gay that dont have this ostentatious thing plastered all over. Its time to let it go, its outdated and serves to separate gays from the rest of the real world.
Its time to abolish this idea of 'The Gay Community' and start living as gays in the communities we live in. Not act like hermits who can only exist under the 'safe' shadow of a rainbow flag.
You are only able to say this because others before you created the current improved situation that you live in. And the current situation is only maintained because there is a united gay community shielding you. For you to argue about about a Flag/No Flag just shows how successful we have been. ....and how good your life must be that the rainbow flag is a significant issue in your life.
i love the flag, it makes me happy when i see it. yes, i don't think its the coolest looking thing, but i don't need something to look "cool" in order for me to appreciate it. it is about what the flag means.
mofo, you can still have your flag made for yourself and your sticker for your car. i'm sure that everyone on this site including myself would be totally ok with that. however the rest of society may rather want to see a rainbow over an image of a gay sexual position.
Ducky44 saidYouth today know nothing about our history and have no appreciation for it or our rich culture.
We need the flag as a salute to Gwen the tranny that was brutally murdered, for Mathew Shepard who was abushed and beaten and affixed to fense in below zero temparture!
This is just man opinion! Your kids today! You scare me but your lack knowledde and appreciation for our history!
It is honestly and sincerely sad to me that you guys think that because someone finds the rainbow flag tacky, and that they think it perpetuates the separation of gays from the rest of society, that this equates to not knowing anything about gay history, or to being 'anti-gay' or that it is somehow similar to the Khmer Rouge.
NickoftheNort... said Nor do you get attacked for any of those three (barring the Khmer Rouge's persecution of perceived intellectuals during the Cambodian genocide and possible Greenpeace demonstrations).
The Khmer Rouge? Really dude? The Khmer Fucking Rouge?
[quote]The acceptability of being gay (and of gay sex) comes through the very people you're deriding. Drag queens were at the forefront fighting against the oppressive police forces during the initial "militant" gay front. They fought for you; what the f**k have you done for them? [/quote]
And again, because I think the flag is tacky and outdated, now that means I'm deriding gay people or anyone thats fought for gay rights? It seems to me that you guys cant differentiate between a criticism of the flag or the idea of having a flag vs that of being gay and gay rights. You cant separate the two. Which is probably why you need to have a bright rainbow flag hanging above every store, bar, etc you go to. Wake up and see past the rainbows, you live in a larger community, step out of the safe little rainbow plastered utopia you exist in
I think the Rainbow flag is one of the better aspects of the GLBT community. It is certainly a lot more interesting to look at then many of the flags that you see flying.
Furthermore, it reflects the reality of our community. We encompass and (hopefully) tolerate a wide range of people.
Ducky44 saidYouth today know nothing about our history and have no appreciation for it or our rich culture.
We need the flag as a salute to Gwen the tranny that was brutally murdered, for Mathew Shepard who was abushed and beaten and affixed to fense in below zero temparture!
This is just man opinion! Your kids today! You scare me but your lack knowledde and appreciation for our history!
It is honestly and sincerely sad to me that you guys think that because someone finds the rainbow flag tacky, and that they think it perpetuates the separation of gays from the rest of society, that this equates to not knowing anything about gay history, or to being 'anti-gay' or that it is somehow similar to the Khmer Rouge.
NickoftheNort... said Nor do you get attacked for any of those three (barring the Khmer Rouge's persecution of perceived intellectuals during the Cambodian genocide and possible Greenpeace demonstrations).
The Khmer Rouge? Really dude? The Khmer Fucking Rouge?
[quote]The acceptability of being gay (and of gay sex) comes through the very people you're deriding. Drag queens were at the forefront fighting against the oppressive police forces during the initial "militant" gay front. They fought for you; what the f**k have you done for them?
And again, because I think the flag is tacky and outdated, now that means I'm deriding gay people or anyone thats fought for gay rights? It seems to me that you guys cant differentiate between a criticism of the flag or the idea of having a flag vs that of being gay and gay rights. You cant separate the two. Which is probably why you need to have a bright rainbow flag hanging above every store, bar, etc you go to. Wake up and see past the rainbows, you live in a larger community, step out of the safe little rainbow plastered utopia you exist in
[/quote] Wow...your reading comprehension is astounding in its absence. Your understanding of your own writing, and the apparent difference between what you claim to say and what you actually say, suggests this absence applies to understanding yourself as well.
chitown_mofo said,.And again, because I think the flag is tacky and outdated, now that means I'm deriding gay people or anyone thats fought for gay rights? It seems to me that you guys cant differentiate between a criticism of the flag or the idea of having a flag vs that of being gay and gay rights. You cant separate the two. Which is probably why you need to have a bright rainbow flag hanging above every store, bar, etc you go to. Wake up and see past the rainbows, you live in a larger community, step out of the safe little rainbow plastered utopia you exist in
[/quote]
No, you cant separate the two. ...Your orginal statement contained both a taste perspective ("I don't care too much for the rainbow") and the question "do gays really need a flag anymore?" ...You are getting responses to your question. ...The flag is the symbol of our united community, which is necessary because of the discrimination we suffer. ...Your personal opinion on the tastefulness of the flag is neither here nor there. ....There is no arguing taste, so why bother declaring it just to declare it. ...If you have a better idea for a symbol for the community, give it.
And this silly notiion you have that gays are living in their own confined gay community because they dont want to come out into the large community is ludicrous. ...We didnt define ourselves. ...Society defined us.
Again, you are living the good life only because others have created this community with the power to make a place for us in the larger society. ...You should stop being a little dick and appreciate it.
[quote][cite]chitown_mofo saidI'm a little biased here, because I don't care too much for the rainbow. But nonetheless, do gays really need a flag anymore? I'm all for giving props to the gays who came before me and advanced the culture and all, but it's kinda tacky at this point. It served a purpose back in the proverbial day, but now I think its just unnecessary and cheesy. And its really, really, really, umm...GAY!!! Not "guy humping guy" gay, more like "show tunes and drag queens" gay.
If we need a flag, maybe a new flag with a silhouette of two guys humping? I'd like that alot more than the rainbow. Thats a bumper sticker I'd be willing to put on my car.
Caslon6000 said Again, you are living the good life only because others have created this community with the power to make a place for us in the larger society. ...You should stop being a little dick and appreciate it.
Again, you cant seem to differentiate between my criticism of the flag and being unappreciative of what previous gays have done for us.
My guess is that alot of people here dont fly American flags all over thier home, work etc. Does that mean you dont appreciate what our servicemen have done for us? I would never make that statement about someone who doesnt fly an American flag. Would you? If not, then stop applying to to me because of my opinions on the Rainbow flag.
If you're going to continue equating my dislike for the obnoxious display of the rainbow flag with being unappreciative of the strides made by the gay community, then go out and tell every business, home, etc that is not waving the American flag that they need to stop being 'little dicks' and appreciate what our soldiers have done for us.
Caslon6000 said Again, you are living the good life only because others have created this community with the power to make a place for us in the larger society. ...You should stop being a little dick and appreciate it.
Again, you cant seem to differentiate between my criticism of the flag and being unappreciative of what previous gays have done for us.
My guess is that alot of people here dont fly American flags all over thier home, work etc. Does that mean you dont appreciate what our servicemen have done for us? I would never make that statement about someone who doesnt fly an American flag. Would you? If not, then stop applying to to me because of my opinions on the Rainbow flag.
Your basic criticism wasnt about flying a flag...it was about the appearance of the flag. Your objection to displaying the rainbow flag was cuz you dont like the looks of it ...You're switching arguments to suit your current point. ...Try to keep your argument on topic, please.
You started two topics here and you are getting responses to both, the appearance of the flag and why we need a flag (or some symbol, but you still havent come up with an alternative).
If you're going to continue equating my dislike for the obnoxious display of the rainbow flag with being unappreciative of the strides made by the gay community, then go out and tell every business, home, etc that is not waving the American flag that they need to stop being 'little dicks' and appreciate what our soldiers have done for us.
And, dude, nobody else was having a problem with flags...any flag....it's your quibble. ...We're not the ones who have to go out and tell anybody anything about any flag.
Your basic criticism wasnt about flying a flag...it was about the appearance of the flag. Your objection to displaying the rainbow flag was cuz you dont like the looks of it ...You're switching arguments to suit your current point. ...Try to keep your argument on topic, please.
Actually it was in part, to quote my original post before this became what it is..."But nonetheless, do gays really need a flag anymore?"
And then you guys decided that my not liking the flag meant i was unappreciative of Gay culture and history. Much like the Flag waving republicans jumped on Obama when he said he didnt need to wear an American flag Lapel pin to show he was a patriot. Calling him Un-American and disrespectful of our troops.
I dont like the flag, its appearance to me is tacky and ridiculous. Fine, thats opinion, you can disagree with it if you like. You keep asking for an alternative. My answer (which I implied in my first post by suggesting something obnoxious like 2 guys humping, which some of you seem to have taken literally), is that WE DONT NEED A FLAG. We dont need to wave a flag around because we're gay. We definitely dont need to obnoxiously plaster it all over everything that is gay related. No alternative symbol, just be gay, you dont need to wave an effing flag everywhere.
chitown_mofo saidI dont like the flag, its appearance to me is tacky and ridiculous. Fine, thats opinion, you can disagree with it if you like. You keep asking for an alternative. My answer (which I implied in my first post by suggesting something obnoxious like 2 guys humping, which some of you seem to have taken literally), is that WE DONT NEED A FLAG. We dont need to wave a flag around because we're gay. We definitely dont need to obnoxiously plaster it all over everything that is gay related. No alternative symbol, just be gay, you dont need to wave an effing flag everywhere.
Here is where I think you are missing the point. Respondents have made the argument that we NEED a community to protect us.
Now you are making the assertion that we dont NEED a flag for that for that community. I am not sure how one substantiates that assertion of "need" one way or the other. But historically, it can be demonstrated that a flag is a common device for identifying a "community." Therefore, it is not outlandish that the gay community adopted a flag as it's symbol.
Therefore, I ask of you, what's wrong with having a flag...besides the fact that you dont like its appearance?
Caslon6000 said[quote][cite]chitown_mofo said[/citeI dont like the flag, its appearance to me is tacky and ridiculous. Fine, thats opinion, you can disagree with it if you like. You keep asking for an alternative. My answer (which I implied in my first post by suggesting something obnoxious like 2 guys humping, which some of you seem to have taken literally), is that WE DONT NEED A FLAG. We dont need to wave a flag around because we're gay. We definitely dont need to obnoxiously plaster it all over everything that is gay related. No alternative symbol, just be gay, you dont need to wave an effing flag everywhere.
Here is where I think you are missing the point. Respondents have made the argument that we NEED a community to protect us.
Now you are making the assertion that we dont NEED a flag for that for that community. I am not sure how one substantiates that assertion of "need" one way or the other. But historically, it can be demonstrated that a flag is a common device for identifying a "community." Therefore, it is not outlandish that the gay community adopted a flag as it's symbol.
Therefore, I ask of you, what's wrong with having a flag...besides the fact that you dont like its appearance?[/quote]
Well first off, thank you for responding without painting my dislike for the flag as an indication that I am anti-gay, unappreciative, or ignorant. Its been very 'Fox News' up until now.
Whats wrong with the flag, other than the fact that i dont like it for aesthetic reasons (Showtunes gay, etc), is that it almost seems like we cannot have bars, stores, etc without flying this thing. EVERYWHERE! To me that is an indication that we feel the need to make it clear that this is 'Gay Territory', 'A Place for Gays'. If you are a gay business = you need to fly a rainbow flag. At some point, and I think we've passed it, you've got to stop calling out your separation from the rest of the community. I dont mean to keep bringing up the same example. but I would liken it to the far right plastering the American flag all over EVERYTHING to the point where its almost become a political statement to fly an American flag. I dont feel like I need to fly an American flag all over the place because I'm American, and I think the same is true for Gays. The thing is plastered all over everything, almost like a rainbow vomited all over the place. Its just unnecessary, looks like shit, and serves more as an isolation mechanism than a community identifier at this point.
chitown_mofo saidI'm a little biased here, because I don't care too much for the rainbow. But nonetheless, do gays really need a flag anymore? I'm all for giving props to the gays who came before me and advanced the culture and all, but it's kinda tacky at this point. It served a purpose back in the proverbial day, but now I think its just unnecessary and cheesy. And its really, really, really, umm...GAY!!! Not "guy humping guy" gay, more like "show tunes and drag queens" gay.
If we need a flag, maybe a new flag with a silhouette of two guys humping? I'd like that alot more than the rainbow. Thats a bumper sticker I'd be willing to put on my car.
From wikipedia ...
The Rainbow flag or Pride flag of the LGBT community (also known as the gay pride flag) is a symbol of LGBT pride and LGBT social movements in use since the 1970s. The colors reflect the diversity of the LGBT community, and the flag is often used as a symbol of gay pride in LGBT rights marches. It originated in the United States, but is now used worldwide. Designed by San Francisco artist Gilbert Baker in 1978[1][2], the design has undergone several revisions. As of 2008, the most common variant consists of six stripes, with the colors red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet. The flag is commonly flown horizontally, with the red stripe on top, as the colors would appear in a natural rainbow.
The original gay-pride flag was hand-dyed by Gilbert Baker. It flew in the San Francisco Gay Freedom Day Parade on June 25, 1978.
After the November 27, 1978, assassination of openly gay San Francisco City Supervisor Harvey Milk, demand for the rainbow flag greatly increased. To meet demand, the Paramount Flag Company began selling a version of the flag using stock rainbow fabric consisting of seven stripes of red, orange, yellow, green, turquoise, blue, and violet. As Baker ramped up production of his version of the flag, he too dropped the hot pink stripe due to the unavailability of hot-pink fabric. Also, San Francisco-based Paramount Flag Co. began selling a surplus stock of Rainbow Girls flags from its Polk Street retail store, which at the time was San Francisco's main gay neighborhood.
In 1979, the flag was modified again. When hung vertically from the lamp posts of San Francisco's Market Street, the center stripe was obscured by the post itself. Changing the flag design to one with an even number of stripes was the easiest way to rectify this, so the turquoise stripe was dropped, which resulted in a six stripe version of the flag - red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet.
In 1989, the rainbow flag came to nationwide attention in the United States after John Stout sued his landlords and won when they attempted to prohibit him from displaying the flag from his West Hollywood, California, apartment balcony.[citation needed]
The rainbow flag celebrated its 25th anniversary in 2003. During the gay pride celebrations in June of that year, Gilbert Baker restored the rainbow flag back to its original eight-striped version and has since advocated that others do the same. However, the eight-striped version has seen little adoption by the wider gay community, which has mostly stuck with the better known six-striped version.
In autumn 2004 several gay businesses in London were ordered by Westminster City Council to remove the rainbow flag from their premises, as its display required planning permission. When one shop applied for permission, the Planning sub-committee refused the application on the chair's casting vote (May 19, 2005), a decision condemned by gay councillors in Westminster and the then Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. In November the council announced a reversal of policy, stating that most shops and bars would be allowed to fly the rainbow flag without planning permission.
Today many LGBT individuals and straight allies often put rainbow flags in the front of their yards and/or front doors, or use rainbow bumper stickers on their vehicles to use as an outward symbol of their identity or support.
On the 14th of June 2004, gay activists sailed to Australia's uninhabited Coral Sea Islands Territory and raised the Gay flag, proclaiming the territory independent of Australia, calling it the Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands.
chitown_mofo said Well first off, thank you for responding without painting my dislike for the flag as an indication that I am anti-gay, unappreciative, or ignorant. Its been very 'Fox News' up until now.
Whats wrong with the flag, other than the fact that i dont like it for aesthetic reasons (Showtunes gay, etc), is that it almost seems like we cannot have bars, stores, etc without flying this thing. EVERYWHERE! To me that is an indication that we feel the need to make it clear that this is 'Gay Territory', 'A Place for Gays'. If you are a gay business = you need to fly a rainbow flag. At some point, and I think we've passed it, you've got to stop calling out your separation from the rest of the community. I dont mean to keep bringing up the same example. but I would liken it to the far right plastering the American flag all over EVERYTHING to the point where its almost become a political statement to fly an American flag. I dont feel like I need to fly an American flag all over the place because I'm American, and I think the same is true for Gays. The thing is plastered all over everything, almost like a rainbow vomited all over the place. Its just unnecessary, looks like shit, and serves more as an isolation mechanism than a community identifier at this point.
Ok, so the issue is not the appearance of the flag, or even having a flag. It's the ubiquitous display of the flag. That is not at all what you posted in the beginning. Your original posting was about its appearance ("cheesy") and do we need one ("unnecessary").
Now you want to talk about its display. This reminds me of the time a copy editor was asked to do "just a light edit." He said, "oh sure, just which mistakes would like left in?" What rules do you propose for "editing" the display of the flag? For a community that is still fighting for respect in the greater society, I dont think the flag can be displayed too much at this time. The more our opponents see that society is coming around to support gay rights the better, IMHO.
But you go ahead, and tell us when support for gay rights should not be displayed.
It's a way to remind the rest of the world that we exist on a human (as in non-hollywood) scale. The less visible we are, the more we get marginalized as having some sort of obscure deformity or illness. We don't have interesting eyes or color of skin to show who we are, and so until we have equal rights, it is important for us to show who we are somehow. We need to show that efforts to make us "go away" are not working. So stores display the flag, you see little rainbow bumper stickers, and so forth.
The desired thought process is that people make a connection between homosexuality, and the fact that we mirror the population at large. The people or businesses behind the rainbow are just like everyone else. But too many people still don't get it.
All flags are tacky. That's kind of the point. Be simple, boastful, and leave an impression. But thanks for your artistic viewpoint, which is all I can glean from your original post.
Well the flag is a symbol man, it's not meant to be pretty or look good but to convey a message. All the colors and stripes symbolize something, and maybe by doing some research and looking into it you'd come to appreciate it and understand it. Originally I thought the flag was kind of flamboyant, but then I read this:
I like the rainbow flag. I don't really think about it too much. I'm not one of these gay guys who tries to be part of a gay community. I like gay bars but my life dosn't have to be gay, gay, gay...
All I really want from being gay is a relationship with a guy down the road. I'm comfortable and at home in my "straight" world.
[quote][cite] Ok, so the issue is not the appearance of the flag, or even having a flag. It's the ubiquitous display of the flag. That is not at all what you posted in the beginning. Your original posting was about its appearance ("cheesy") and do we need one ("unnecessary").
Now you want to talk about its display. This reminds me of the time a copy editor was asked to do "just a light edit." He said, "oh sure, just which mistakes would like left in?" What rules do you propose for "editing" the display of the flag? For a community that is still fighting for respect in the greater society, I dont think the flag can be displayed too much at this time. The more our opponents see that society is coming around to support gay rights the better, IMHO.
But you go ahead, and tell us when support for gay rights should not be displayed.[/quote]
My original post was about its appearance, which is my opinion, your fine to disagree with that. And whether its necessary, which would be directly relevant to its display.
And the fact that you've taken a flag to represent support of gay rights to me is a little strange - that you would say that my dislike of the flag is an indication of not supporting gay rights. Again this shows that you cannot separate being gay and gay rights from a flag.
Ill make my point again and leave it at this, WE DONT NEED A FLAG to be gay, to fight for gay rights, to live in a gay, or any community. No more than black people need a 'Black Flag' to fight for their rights, or women need a 'Women Flag' to fight for theirs. Its not necessary, and its its display has become ostentatious and obnoxious.
....and its really, really, really, tacky and looks like shit.
chitown_mofo said[quote] My original post was about its appearance, which is my opinion, your fine to disagree with that. And whether its necessary, which would be directly relevant to its display.
And the fact that you've taken a flag to represent support of gay rights to me is a little strange - that you would say that my dislike of the flag is an indication of not supporting gay rights. Again this shows that you cannot separate being gay and gay rights from a flag.
Ill make my point again and leave it at this, WE DONT NEED A FLAG to be gay, to fight for gay rights, to live in a gay, or any community. No more than black people need a 'Black Flag' to fight for their rights, or women need a 'Women Flag' to fight for theirs. Its not necessary, and its its display has become ostentatious and obnoxious.
....and its really, really, really, tacky and looks like shit. [/quote]
And I think that armband tattoos are also tacky and look like shit. They've also become ostentatious and obnoxious. I don't think people need them to make themselves look cool. Cool is a state of mind. But did I create a new forum post to voice this? Nah.
So anyway...what we've all learned today is something akin to an Onion headline:
"Local gay teen proclaims rainbow flag to be tacky."
And I think that armband tattoos are also tacky and look like shit. I don't think people need them to make themselves look cool. Cool is a state of mind. But did I create a new forum post to voice this? Nah.
So anyway...what we've all learned today is something akin to an Onion headline:
"Local gay teen proclaims rainbow flag to be tacky."[/quote]
And there we go, people dont like what they hear and go to the personal attack.
Good one dude, cuz your tattoo is the coolest fucking thing i've seen all year. Man, when i went into the tattoo shop, If I only woulda thought "Turtle!" then I would be 10x cooler than I am today. Thanks for putting me in my place!
And I think that armband tattoos are also tacky and look like shit. I don't think people need them to make themselves look cool. Cool is a state of mind. But did I create a new forum post to voice this? Nah.
So anyway...what we've all learned today is something akin to an Onion headline:
"Local gay teen proclaims rainbow flag to be tacky."
And there we go, people dont like what they hear and go to the personal attack.
Good one dude, cuz your tattoo is the coolest fucking thing i've seen all year. Man, when i went into the tattoo shop, If I only woulda thought "Turtle!" then I would be 10x cooler than I am today. Thanks for putting me in my place!
Ummmm...I havent heard a response to your rules for editing the display of the flag. Or have you found yourself boxed in a corner and are trying to divert attention with your "personal attack" whine?
Come on, you arent off the hook for your ill-thought out, little tantrum yet.
And quite frankly, that is my assessment of the situation. You had some chidish tantrum about the rainbow flag for some reason and puked your little hairball on the thread with no thought whatsoever. Then when you were challenged on it, you have tried to weasel yourself out of it, rather than just admit you had an ill-conceived thought. You're 30 years olds. Learn to think...and grow a sack for when you need to take responsibility for shooting from the lip.
I think a symbol or representation can only be as powerful as it appears to the public eye. The rainbow has acquired such a connotation, stereotype, and general stigma in the public eye, i personally don't think it appropriately represents the whole of the gay community that isn't wearing rainbow colored thongs at the gay pride parade.
Caslon6000 said And quite frankly, that is my assessment of the situation. You had some chidish tantrum about the rainbow flag for some reason and puked your little hairball on the thread with no thought whatsoever. Then when you were challenged on it, you have tried to weasel yourself out of it, rather than just admit you had an ill-conceived thought. You're 30 years olds. Learn to think...and grow a sack for when you need to take responsibility for your actions.
Yes, because I dont like having a rainbow flag shoved in my face every time I encounter a gay establishment, thats a hairball. An ill conceived thought.
And taking that to mean I'm anti-gay and dont support gay rights arent things I should defend myself on?
Sorry dude, Ive restated my point over and over again, and Ill Ive gotten are distortions that Im not supporting gay rights or attacks on my tattoos. Your whatever years old, learn to argue a point.
Caslon6000 saidYou had some chidish tantrum about the rainbow flag for some reason and puked your little hairball on the thread with no thought whatsoever.
My spider-sense detects that a LOLcat is imminent!
Caslon6000 said And quite frankly, that is my assessment of the situation. You had some chidish tantrum about the rainbow flag for some reason and puked your little hairball on the thread with no thought whatsoever. Then when you were challenged on it, you have tried to weasel yourself out of it, rather than just admit you had an ill-conceived thought. You're 30 years olds. Learn to think...and grow a sack for when you need to take responsibility for your actions.
Yes, because I dont like having a rainbow flag shoved in my face every time I encounter a gay establishment, thats a hairball. An ill conceived thought.
And taking that to mean I'm anti-gay and dont support gay rights arent things I should defend myself on?
Sorry dude, Ive restated my point over and over again, and Ill Ive gotten are distortions that Im not supporting gay rights or attacks on my tattoos. Your whatever years old, learn to argue a point.
We know your view on the display of the rainbow flag. You dont have to repeat it. You were asked what would be your rules of displaying it.
Which businesses, people, etc should display it and when?
Come on...dont just repeat your whining....tell us what your solution is.
Whining is easy....babies whine...it takes an adult to come up with a solution.
GuiltyGear said What about the segment of the gay population, which is huge that is "drag queens and showtunes gay"? I love both and I love the rainbow flag. Plus, how do you outgrow the need for a community symbol?
...
I rarely agree with GG. But in this case, he's not only right on but eloquent and to the point.
This means diversity and accepting it. I think we still need it. You may not feel like you need it where you live, but there are other cities and countries where homosexuals are discriminated.
devildoginco saidMy flag has always been the American Flag. None other needed.
If McCain/Palin win, gay rights in the country for which the American Flag is supposed to symbolize inclusiveness will be in the toilet for another four years. If you want to convert this thread into one on patriotism, consider that.
I like the Rainbow Flag....I don't care it was not designed by graphic artist....it symbolizes exactly what GuiltyGear so neatly and eloquently summarized.
As to the OP's smarmy, smart ass, but definitely unfunny, reference to replacing this flag with one of two guys humping....it deserves exactly the response Caslon as given it.
And I think that armband tattoos are also tacky and look like shit. I don't think people need them to make themselves look cool. Cool is a state of mind. But did I create a new forum post to voice this? Nah.
So anyway...what we've all learned today is something akin to an Onion headline:
"Local gay teen proclaims rainbow flag to be tacky."
And there we go, people dont like what they hear and go to the personal attack.
Good one dude, cuz your tattoo is the coolest fucking thing i've seen all year. Man, when i went into the tattoo shop, If I only woulda thought "Turtle!" then I would be 10x cooler than I am today. Thanks for putting me in my place!
Your tattoo was not my point. I'm sorry that you felt personally attacked. My point was that you decided to create a thread based on your own personal aesthetic, and then extrapolated your opinion into how the gay community *should* deal with the rainbow flag symbol.
Come on...dont just repeat your whining....tell us what your solution is.
WOW!!! For the 50th time. I'll repeat it again cuz you don't seem to hear it and keep asking the same question. MY POINT IS THAT WE DONT NEED TO HAVE A FLAG / SYMBOL OF GAY!!!!
How many times do I have to say it.
Its not necessary. No business, establishment, etc should be expected or be obliged to raise some flag simply because it caters to Gays. Its insulting that I need some flag waving to know where I can go as a gay man to find someplace 'safe'. Its NOT NECESSARY!
I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way, alot of bars in the bigger cities are doing away with plastering the rainbow flag all over the bars, stores, etc. Its a sign of progress, we aren't like the underground railroad anymore.
I think we still need it. You may not feel like you need it where you live, but there are other cities and countries where homosexuals are discriminated.
[/quote]
Thank you for an actual relevant thoughtful contention to my point.
Come on...dont just repeat your whining....tell us what your solution is.
WOW!!! For the 50th time. I'll repeat it again cuz you don't seem to hear it and keep asking the same question. MY POINT IS THAT WE DONT NEED TO HAVE A FLAG / SYMBOL OF GAY!!!!
How many times do I have to say it.
Its not necessary. No business, establishment, etc should be expected or be obliged to raise some flag simply because it caters to Gays. Its insulting that I need some flag waving to know where I can go as a gay man to find someplace 'safe'. Its NOT NECESSARY!
I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way, alot of bars in the bigger cities are doing away with plastering the rainbow flag all over the bars, stores, etc. Its a sign of progress, we aren't like the underground railroad anymore.
What about smaller towns? Bigger cities are relatively integrated. Don't you think a rainbow flag in the window of a business would have an impact on a smaller town that might be helpful to the gay residents living there? Because a lot of closed-minded people seem to think they can hide from cultures that are different from them by "hiding" in a small town.
Just wondering if you've made any effort at all to mentally step out of wherever you live for just a moment and consider other scenarios.
Your tattoo was not my point. I'm sorry that you felt personally attacked. My point was that you decided to create a thread based on your own personal aesthetic, and then extrapolated your opinion into how the gay community *should* deal with the rainbow flag symbol.
It's an opinion dude, intended to stimulate discussion. Anyone is welcome to retort. Thats what the forums are for, not to post things that everyone agrees with.
I dont like it and I dont think its necessary anymore, why should i refrain from stating my opinion?
And I think that armband tattoos are also tacky and look like shit. I don't think people need them to make themselves look cool. Cool is a state of mind. But did I create a new forum post to voice this? Nah.
Just cuz you, and apparently alot of others, dont agree with it doesnt make it not forum worthy.
Your tattoo was not my point. I'm sorry that you felt personally attacked. My point was that you decided to create a thread based on your own personal aesthetic, and then extrapolated your opinion into how the gay community *should* deal with the rainbow flag symbol.
It's an opinion dude, intended to stimulate discussion. Anyone is welcome to retort. Thats what the forums are for, not to post things that everyone agrees with.
I dont like it and I dont think its necessary anymore, why should i refrain from stating my opinion?
And I think that armband tattoos are also tacky and look like shit. I don't think people need them to make themselves look cool. Cool is a state of mind. But did I create a new forum post to voice this? Nah.
Just cuz you, and apparently alot of others, dont agree with it doesnt make it not forum worthy.
Sounds like you want to be heard, but have nothing much to say. You still haven't supported your point, which I assume you are making in order to perhaps garner support. Since this is an idea many on here don't think should be supported, some counter arguments have been offered. I think we're just hoping for more from you than "tacky". You have yet to take advantage of this opportunity to be heard for anything more than simple repetition of the original post, even though many here are asking. It seems a little insignificant for a forum topic *unless* you are able to thoughtfully support your assertion that we don't need the symbol anymore, which you haven't.
So you live in Chicago and maybe the flag is a little redundant there (your welcome for the vocab and nuance). But again I ask...what about small towns? You keep saying it is unnecessary, and others are offering scenarios as examples of why and how it is necessary, and instead of consideration and response, you just keep repeating" unneccesary" and "tacky". Are you accepting the other scenarios as necessary applications for using the flag then?
Also, I apologize for assuming you were a teenager. I looked at your profile and it says you are 30.
What about smaller towns? Bigger cities are relatively integrated. Don't you think a rainbow flag in the window of a business would have an impact on a smaller town that might be helpful to the gay residents living there? Because a lot of closed-minded people seem to think they can hide from cultures that are different from them by "hiding" in a small town.
Just wondering if you've made any effort at all to mentally step out of wherever you live for just a moment and consider other scenarios.
Ok, a valid point, but by this logic then, you are acknowledging that in the bigger cities where the option to not have the flag exists, it is a sign of progress?
So maybe the smaller towns aren't ready for it yet, but in places where we've established ourselves, maybe its time to stop relying on something that is NO LONGER NECESSARY.
And the hope would be that we can get the smaller towns to a point where they also no longer have to wave a flag to voice gay rights, make a presence, or indicate a 'safe' place.
At the end of the day, I think having to have a flag waving to indicate your gay is almost like making a concession that you need to be protected and that you are separate. A separate part of the overall community. I dont feel that way. I dont think we should have to wave a flag because we are gay. I dont think we should be content in centralizing our establishments into niche areas of the cities.
i just dont think its necessary. Maybe you're right, maybe in smaller towns its still is, but our goal should be complete integration and equality. I dont like having to stand under a separate flag because im gay.
This is a situation of: "I live in this little box. It is the whole world to me. Everyone in the whole world, whether I can see them or not should see things exactly as I do since my experience is as broad as the whole world. I don't care what's outside my box. Even though I've never seen or experienced it, I know that it is no different than what I see in my little box. Your experience and knowledge is therefore moot and I will dispute anything that doesn't match what I know to be true."
There is no point in arguing with someone like this. You might as well try describing a rainbow to a person who is blind from birth. There is no reference point to describe color to someone who has never experienced it.
bgcat57 saidThis is a situation of: "I live in this little box. It is the whole world to me. Everyone in the whole world, whether I can see them or not should see things exactly as I do since my experience is as broad as the whole world. I don't care what's outside my box. Even though I've never seen or experienced it, I know that it is no different than what I see in my little box. Your experience and knowledge is therefore moot and I will dispute anything that doesn't match what I know to be true."
Thanks for the support, it has been difficult challenging people on something that is so ingrained in their psyches that they cant conceive of existing without it.
You dont wave a flag because you're college educated
(The block I is a symbol of the University of Illinois - I can spot it a mile away and appreciate being able to find other Illini so easily)
You dont wave a flag because you are an architect
(ok, I'll admit this one is a symbol and not a flag, but the reality is that I still have a symbol that identifies me as an architect, and when I spot that symbol, no matter where I am, I know I am in the company of people interested in my profession).
You dont wave a flag because you like scuba diving
Why are you getting so worked up over a rainbow flag? Is it really that horrible to walk around Chicago and see a rainbow sticker or flag on an establishment window? I like the rainbows around Chicago. To me it's a symbol of camaraderie - I know people there accept me as gay, so I'm more likely to give them my business and support them as well. There are much bigger things to freak out about than this.
There's a flag? But seriously, Why Can't We Be Friends just started playing on my iTunes. I do believe there is a civil way to debate this topic without hitting below the belt, gentlemen.
justinmiami saidThere's a flag? But seriously, Why Can't We Be Friends just started playing on my iTunes. I do believe there is a civil way to debate this topic without hitting below the belt, gentlemen.
Chitown-Mofo sounds like a naive brat. What he needs, really, is a rainbow mouth punch. And an introductory course in witty banter, which he sorely lacks.
justinmiami saidThere's a flag? But seriously, Why Can't We Be Friends just started playing on my iTunes. I do believe there is a civil way to debate this topic without hitting below the belt, gentlemen.
Chitown-Mofo sounds like a naive brat. What he needs, really, is a rainbow mouth punch. And an introductory course in witty banter, which he sorely lacks.
wow dude what hate for your own peeps and btw if it where not for the drags and showtunes most people would never come out those are the people that have balls to say im proud and im gay. i give them props more than the coloted guys who are so up tight about they like to suck dick.
OK... Enough... The Rainbow flag has been a symbol of our movement for a LONG time. I don't personally own anything with a rainbow flag. I DO have an american Flag. I DON'T find it necessary to have a flag to be considered a NATION either. Do we still need it? I believe so! I still believe that the GLBT movement needs the rainbow flag as well. When you walk into a gay establishment and see that flag it's just a welcome sign. The Rainbow flag says ALL are welcome here! When I see that flag I smile! WE are STILL FIGHTING for BASIC rights! Symbols are important. I don't understand your logic Chi... It's a symbol... get over it. Whether you are religious or not, I don't know... I do know that every religious group has some kind of symbol indicating their affiliation. Do they need it to be recognized as a religion? NO! The fact is this... It's meant to represent a community with SO MANY differences. It's meant to represent our unwillingness to be pushed under the rug and go unnoticed and treated as second class citizens. It's meant to be A SYMBOL. For all psychological purposes symbols are necessary. See it for what it is! And when we can all get married- no matter where we are, can visit our loved ones in a hospital- no matter where we are, or be equal with everyone else no matter what, where, why, or who, then maybe we won't need a symbol! Until then... I find it a dire necessity! 2 Guys humping? Seriously? What kind of idiot are you? I can't even put everything I want to say into words because I'm dumbfounded by you moronic thought pattern.
Come on...dont just repeat your whining....tell us what your solution is.
WOW!!! For the 50th time. I'll repeat it again cuz you don't seem to hear it and keep asking the same question. MY POINT IS THAT WE DONT NEED TO HAVE A FLAG / SYMBOL OF GAY!!!!
How many times do I have to say it.
Its not necessary. No business, establishment, etc should be expected or be obliged to raise some flag simply because it caters to Gays. Its insulting that I need some flag waving to know where I can go as a gay man to find someplace 'safe'. Its NOT NECESSARY!
I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way, alot of bars in the bigger cities are doing away with plastering the rainbow flag all over the bars, stores, etc. Its a sign of progress, we aren't like the underground railroad anymore.
Nobody has said that any business, establishment is expected or obliged to raise some simply because it caters to Gays.
Where did you get that from?
So lets see, you have gone thru:
you dont like the looks of the flag,
you dont like the ubiquitous display of the flag,
you dont see the need for a flag (need as in the community needing a flag)
and now you are talking about the flag being expect/obligated/necessary/needed by a business, establishent, etc.
Dude, you are just inventing arguments and shifting the meaning of your words as you go along. ....You are dumber than a box of rocks!
Wow. What a touchy topic. I'm not anti gay and I don't like the rainbow flag, sorry. I don't think its necessary. That's it. That simple. I think its insulting that we need to plaster a rainbow all over all things gay or make it a prerequisite that any gay establishment must fly an obnoxious rainbow flag as if not doing so would be victory for our detractors. I know other people who feel the same way (apparently very few of them in this forum!).
There could have been some thoughtful discussions (some people made an effort) to what was intended to be a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek posting, but apparently even bringing it up means I'm against all things gay and ignorant to the plight of the gay movement.
I'm done defending myself, Ive said everything I wanted to say and you can judge me as such. A brat, a moron, ignorant, blind from birth, a fool, or my personal favorite, representing ideologies akin to the Khmer Rouge.
But admit it, you love me. You do! And the humping silhouette bumper stickers - you kinda want them, don't ya?
Just a little...?
A teeny tiny bit....?
Yeah...I knew it.
Rainbows for all y'all....
I got an email inbox if your still sore...y'all can continue the outrage and bashing here amongst yourselves, at this point I'm just repeating myself over and over and over...
OK,...I want a symbolic logo or a flag or a kite or a wind sock or wind chimes, or something, etc, and I want to design it so that it is in an Escher type style of say "Liberation" or "Woodcut II", only done in many colors and in a wild mix of "lucky charms shapes" and a variety of materials and textures.....maybe a 3-D or something interesting......still the simplicity of a rainbow or of the equal sign is powerful, memorable and universal, just like a dollar sign "$", or a swastika "卐"....... PS: I LIKE THE RAIBOW FLAG .....let's keep it! But you can make your own kind of symbol to represent what "your style of gayness" is too!
chitown_mofo saidThere could have been some thoughtful discussions (some people made an effort) to what was intended to be a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek posting, .
"to be a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek posting" ...ah HAHAHAHAHAHA ...the last refuge for the witless...."I really didnt mean it. I was just joking." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ...Stick a fork in you. You're done!
Caslon6000 said "to be a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek posting" ...ah HAHAHAHAHAHA ...the last refuge for the witless...."I really didnt mean it. I was just joking." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ...Stick a fork in you. You're done!
Ugh, i knew I would be dragged back into this....
Yes, Im done.
Done repeating myself 1000x.
Yes, I was REALLY proposing we have two guys humping as a flag for gay people.
Yes, the fact that I repeated my point over and over again was an indication that i was kidding? (thats good logic) I never said I was kidding, but I wasnt advocating anti-gay sentiments or downplaying the gay rights movement as you twisted it to be. I think my point was made pretty clearly over and over...
email me if you have something to say, ive got 500 people repeating themselves for show in this thing, you wanna talk more, Im right here. But, If you'd rather make another obnoxious statement like the one above, go for it, Im all yours
I was gonna read the whole thing, but it doesn't matter at this point. I kinda like the flag cause it is sort of an identity thing. See others who are like you. Kind of like Marco Polo.
As for those who don't (I'm not about to say its aesthetically pleasing or I'm gonna post it in my front yard) like it, just realize that was true equality emerges, as in when we don't even talk about gay rights because we've had them for so long, the flag will not be as prevalent. Solely because we'll all be focused on everything else. Sure we could have other symbols that could be really cool, but, honestly. Just wait.
I personally see the rainbow as a welcoming sign that I'm in Gay Friendly territory. But it can FOR SURE become obnoxious the way it is over-displayed sometimes.
I have to agree with Mr Chitown (although i do it hesitantly) that his argument was twisted somewhat throughout the thread.
I think that when we get to full acceptance, its 'Function' will no longer be necessary. Maybe here in our lovely Windy City we dont need it anymore (it HAS been phasing out somewhat, which can be seen as a sign of progress). But I dont think it can be discarded in other places where we aent so lucky.
As for the men Humping Silhouettes
I have to chuckle, that might look good in my yard!!!
There are three RJ members that I refuse to read...either as OP's or as responders to posts...because they rant and rave and can't carry on an argument. I think I just added a fourth.
rigsby saidThere are three RJ members that I refuse to read...either as OP's or as responders to posts...because they rant and rave and can't carry on an argument. I think I just added a fourth.
Our contestant today wins a free trip (airfare, lodging and everything else not included) to... Hawaii... where he can view life-sized rainbows for which the state is famous in the wild!!
I did get the tongue-in-cheek vibe of the topic (but then again, I've seen some of chitown_mofo's other posts) and am surprised at the defensive over-reaction of some.
chitown_mofo> Do gays really need a flag anymore?
Yep. We (you included) do.
As XRuggerATX said, it's about VISIBILITY.
It's the opposite of "the love that dare not speak its name".
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned, but do you prefer the Pink Triangle as a symbol? Someone else did mention the HRC's Equality sign. And yes, I know, you don't prefer any symbol at all.
That's the nice part. We can - and do - have multiple symbols. If you don't feel the need for any.... don't fly them.
But I think you now understand how important these symbols are to some people.
caesarea4 said That's the nice part. We can - and do - have multiple symbols. If you don't feel the need for any.... don't fly them.
But I think you now understand how important these symbols are to some people.
Honestly, i can understand how someone who may see the rainbow flag as a symbol of the struggle may find my comment offensive. That may be why so many people took my statement as an attack on the movement or made me out to be anti-gay.
But realistically, even if you feel that way, you cannot have existed in the same gay world that I have for the past 10 years and not have found the flag to be somewhat over-pervasive and at times ostentatious in its display.
You're saying we still need a symbol of gay rights? Thats a VALID argument for the flag (thank you).
But I dont think we do. If you are truly committed to equality, at some point you walk away from the symbols that separate you. I don't think its necessary to have a symbol posted over every establishment that is gay related. And as someone mentioned, here in Chi, we are seeing this phased out. Its an indication that we no longer see ourselves as separate from the rest of the community. Nor do we need to establish a 'safe haven'
I WILL concede to the argument that the visibility is important in places where gays are still crazily discriminated against.
So i'm not completely stubborn....
But I wont tolerate people indicating that I'm anti gay because i dont like the rainbow flag...
I dont think you are anti-gay, Mofo. Maybe a little insensitive. Okay, maybe alot insensitive!!!
You do make an honest and valid point, though.
But let me ask you this....If the symbol WERE of two guys humping (which, i know was a joke and I cant believe anyone took that seriously). Would you speak out against that?
To me, it seems like your dislike for the aesthetics of the rainbow supercedes your reasons for doing away with it.
Also, i HAVE encountered discrimination in Chicago, so im not so sure we are past it here...
chicagosfinest saidI dont think you are anti-gay, Mofo. Maybe a little insensitive. Okay, maybe alot insensitive!!!
But let me ask you this....If the symbol WERE of two guys humping (which, i know was a joke and I cant believe anyone took that seriously). Would you speak out against that?
No, im not known for my sensitivity, sorry.
And, to answer your question, yes I dont think anyone, myself included would want to see a flag of two men humping above every establishment (unless they were really hot!). And yes, i honestly have a very serious gripe with the aesthetics (I find the rainbow tacky, which has nearly gotten me crucified in here).
Going back to the other symbols, the HRC equal sign or the triangle, I would have less of an issue with the aesthetics in those cases, but I still think that planting flags and clinging to them for identity serves isolationism and when displayed as pervasively as it is in the gay world, can be somewhat obnoxious.
But perhaps I wouldn't be QUITE as vocal if it was another symbol, but only for the aesthetic reasons, which are a matter of pure opinion.
1. To let you know you're not alone, which can be a devastating feeling when in hostile territory, which much of the country still is. When you see a car with a rainbow sticker (or an equal sign) you know at least that there are others of us around and visible. This doesn't make you safe, but it can make you feel less uncomfortable.
2. To let people know that an establishment is either gay-owned or gay-friendly. This matters to a lot of people.
If you don't like the flag, I have a suggestion: don't fly it. I don't understand why you give a crap one way or the other. But you're lucky to live in Chicago; you might feel differently if you were in a small Wyoming town.
And maybe being "not known for my sensitivity" is not the best thing to have on your resume.
rigsby saidThere are three RJ members that I refuse to read...either as OP's or as responders to posts...because they rant and rave and can't carry on an argument. I think I just added a fourth.
I have notice this guy's posting before. ...But I am with you, rigsby. ...This guy is brainless.
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned, but do you prefer the Pink Triangle as a symbol? [/quote]
Wow!
First i completely agree. There are many symbols for the gay comunity, The Blue, Black and White for the bears, The double male, double female, and so many more! Pick one, or don't. Thats one of the great fredoms we have here in These Great United States Of America!!
For those of us who do not know all the history of the pink triange... The Nazi's had symbols for all those intered at the prison and work camps. We all know about the Star of David, emblazned on the Jews clothing. There was more, and the Pink Triangle was the symbol for a known homosexual. This was usualy acompanied by the Star of David, and sometimes more, depending on what you were accused of.
Can you immagine being a Homosexual Jew in Hitler's Germany?
Now immagine having to walk the street, every day of your life, with the Rainbow Flag on your arm.
YOU DONT. Because this is not Nazi Germany, and you have a choice to use a symbol or not.
chicagosfinest saidI dont think you are anti-gay, Mofo. Maybe a little insensitive. Okay, maybe alot insensitive!!!
But let me ask you this....If the symbol WERE of two guys humping (which, i know was a joke and I cant believe anyone took that seriously). Would you speak out against that?
No, im not known for my sensitivity, sorry.
And, to answer your question, yes I dont think anyone, myself included would want to see a flag of two men humping above every establishment (unless they were really hot!). And yes, i honestly have a very serious gripe with the aesthetics (I find the rainbow tacky, which has nearly gotten me crucified in here).
Going back to the other symbols, the HRC equal sign or the triangle, I would have less of an issue with the aesthetics in those cases, but I still think that planting flags and clinging to them for identity serves isolationism and when displayed as pervasively as it is in the gay world, can be somewhat obnoxious.
But perhaps I wouldn't be QUITE as vocal if it was another symbol, but only for the aesthetic reasons, which are a matter of pure opinion.
I hope at least, without these symbols to remind people that we're everywhere, that the next time you hear the word "fag" you'll do something about it. When someone uses that word the assumption is that none of us are around to hear it. I argue that every time a less-than-elightened straight person sees a rainbow sticker, they are just a little more careful about what they say about gay folks. En masse, this tends to gravitate towards acceptance, because the less someone hears bashing, the less likely they are to engage in it themselves. And so on.
If people assume we're not living, shopping or socializing where they are then the dominant choice (straight) is generally assumed to be the absolute choice, thereby removing us from all consciousness. In that scenario, before you know it we're back to hiding in little safe places like gay ghettos and sex clubs.
So yeah go ahead remove the symbols, but you'd better correct any and every slur and false assumption you hear, because there would nothing else out there to show that we aren't going away and that we're where everyone else is.
This would be a lot easier if gay people were born with blue skin or eyes shaped like little commas or some other easily recognizable characteristic. Then folks would see that 10% of their town was gay folks and that we are not a "problem" that will "go away".
In short I just think you are fast-forwarding to a utopian gay existence that is far from where we are today. It's great that you don't need the help of a symbol of visibility anymore. I wish all of us were so lucky.
rigsby saidThere are three RJ members that I refuse to read...either as OP's or as responders to posts...because they rant and rave and can't carry on an argument. I think I just added a fourth.
I have notice this guy's posting before. ...But I am with you, rigsby. ...This guy is brainless.
I fairly new to these threads, so I dont know about his other posts, but I actually think you did a poor job of debating him on the topic Caslon. i've read most of the thread.
Sorry, i dont think we should step away from the Rainbow flag, I think its an absurd statement, but he has made some valid points that you seem to have resorted to either ignoring or being dodgy.
I think he just made you mad, or everyone for that matter. Its hard to argue with things that offend your sensibilities such as the original post, but if you cant take them on the right way, you may actually be able to change someone's mind.
I certainly don't think he's brainless. Maybe somewhat of an asshole, but not brainless.
And Mofo, forgive me, but you do seem to be somewhat of an asshole
This would be a lot easier if gay people were born with blue skin or eyes shaped like little commas or some other easily recognizable characteristic. Then folks would see that 10% of their town was gay folks and that we are not a "problem" that will "go away".
I'll concede on the visibility aspect, its a valid argument for the flag. But eventually, we cant rely on symbols to represent our identity. Maybe the time isnt here yet (I still think we could do without them, at least in some places).
People should be more vocal about their being gay in places where its not plastered by rainbow flags. I think we are past the time of needing the symbol, we have gays in all facets of life, and we are pretty vocal these days. Flags wont win change our detractors minds. To me its kind of conciliatory, as if we are saying, "We're Here, We're Queer...aaaaaand we exist in our own little separate world over here where the rainbows are."
I think the interesting fallacy in chitown_mofo's argument is the unstated assumption that the wider society such as it is is worth conforming to. This ought not go unquestioned.
i like the rainbow flag for all the reasons guilty already mentioned. i'm not ready to give it up, and i don't see any reasonable suggestions here that would be proper alternatives. what better symbol to encapsulate inclusion, equality, visibility, beauty? the rainbow is GAY?! yep. it sure is. and widely recognized as such. it is a rallying mark, and that is still very much needed.
i posit this observation:
the hrc equal marks aren't anywhere near as universally recognized and seem to be most popular with uptight gay men who can afford the fancy dinners hrc sponsors. it seems to me that the hrc logo is a way that self-loathing people who want to be out but don't have the balls to be REALLY out can claim that they are without broadcasting it to people who aren't in the know.
grow some balls and put a rainbow flag on your car.
People should be more vocal about their being gay in places where its not plastered by rainbow flags. I think we are past the time of needing the symbol, we have gays in all facets of life, and we are pretty vocal these days. Flags wont win change our detractors minds. To me its kind of conciliatory, as if we are saying, "We're Here, We're Queer...aaaaaand we exist in our own little separate world over here where the rainbows are."
Mofo, we are no where NEAR being past the time of needing symbols. Do you watch the news? We need every bit of visibility we can get, even if it is a TACKY rainbow.
You're saying it isnt necessary, and I get that, but you are assuming much better conditions for gay people than actually exist. I know plenty of people who are guilty of existing in their own little rainbow world as you put it. And you're right, they need to step out of the rainbows a bit. And I will give you that we need more than symbols to advance our causes, but we need the flag, we need to let people know we are here.
Eventually, yes, we need full integration and we wont need to 'Obnoxiously plaster rainbows' everywhere. You're right, it can be obnoxious, but it serves a purpose.
This would be a lot easier if gay people were born with blue skin or eyes shaped like little commas or some other easily recognizable characteristic. Then folks would see that 10% of their town was gay folks and that we are not a "problem" that will "go away".
I'll concede on the visibility aspect, its a valid argument for the flag. But eventually, we cant rely on symbols to represent our identity. Maybe the time isnt here yet (I still think we could do without them, at least in some places).
People should be more vocal about their being gay in places where its not plastered by rainbow flags. I think we are past the time of needing the symbol, we have gays in all facets of life, and we are pretty vocal these days. Flags wont win change our detractors minds. To me its kind of conciliatory, as if we are saying, "We're Here, We're Queer...aaaaaand we exist in our own little separate world over here where the rainbows are."
The rainbow symbol is not exclusionary or separate. I think this is a major flaw in your reasoning. It is (still) needed almost anywhere straight people go in order to gradually help the homophobes get over their irrational fears.
The most popular video store in my city has a rainbow sticker in the window. So do some of the best restaurants. It's a bit more like saying "if you want to enjoy the things you love, you'll have to learn to enjoy them alongside us." There you have it, fears faced, things learned, understanding increased.
And from a business perspective, gay friendly means tapping into a demographic with large discretionary income (or so I'm told...hmph). What a cheap way to draw a great market.
You notice he doesnt back it up! ...oh d'oh! ...that requires thought ...seems like the newbies arrived on the the short of bus.
I'm sorry sir, you want some attention too? Maybe you can post one intelligent thing that isnt purely antogonistic and i will talk with you. Until then, good day
You notice he doesnt back it up! ...oh d'oh! ...that requires thought ...seems like the newbies arrived on the the short of bus.
I'm sorry sir, you want some attention too? Maybe you can post one intelligent thing that isnt purely antogonistic and i will talk with you. Until then, good day
Oh God, now Ive got other people arguing. AND ITS NOT AT ME!!! Dont hate each other, hate me!! Attention HERE!!!!
dancerjack saidthe hrc equal marks aren't anywhere near as universally recognized and seem to be most popular with uptight gay men who can afford the fancy dinners hrc sponsors. it seems to me that the hrc logo is a way that self-loathing people who want to be out but don't have the balls to be REALLY out can claim that they are without broadcasting it to people who aren't in the know.
Well I think the HRC do a lot of good work. But I do sympathise with this view actually. You're right they're not universally recognized, and I do think the dinners are ridiculously overpriced and exclude (ironically) a fair portion of the LGBT community.
You notice he doesnt back it up! ...oh d'oh! ...that requires thought ...seems like the newbies arrived on the the short of bus.
I'm sorry sir, you want some attention too? Maybe you can post one intelligent thing that isnt purely antogonistic and i will talk with you. Until then, good day
lol, simmer down buddy. Only trying to diffuse the tension here .
You notice he doesnt back it up! ...oh d'oh! ...that requires thought ...seems like the newbies arrived on the the short of bus.
I'm sorry sir, you want some attention too? Maybe you can post one intelligent thing that isnt purely antogonistic and i will talk with you. Until then, good day
....actually, you completely bored with your "I actually think you did a poor job of debating him on the topic Caslon." ...if you are going to say that you gotta back it up ....or STFU...cuz it is just rude!
chitown_mofo said I'm not anti gay and I don't like the rainbow flag, sorry.
I forgive you. I know a few people who aren't into the rainbow thing.
chitown_mofo saidI don't think its necessary. That's it. That simple. I think its insulting that we need to plaster a rainbow all over all things gay or make it a prerequisite that any gay establishment must fly an obnoxious rainbow flag as if not doing so would be victory for our detractors. I know other people who feel the same way (apparently very few of them in this forum!).
Here is where I take issue. You're taking "may" and making it "must". We don't need to plaster it all over everything. But in small, rural, or otherwise homophobically-inclined areas it serves to let people know here you don't need to worry so much. It's good for the newly-identifying to see that there are others like themselves, and it's good for anti-gay people to see that we're still around and we're not going away. While homophobia exists, I would argue that there is a need for the flag and other symbols to say to those who need reassurance "here we are", and to those who oppose us, "we're not going anywhere"
Dare I say it: look at feminists, they're much further along the path to equality than we are, and they still have symbols. Political movements march under banners. Political movements need symbols to garner support and recognition. Until we have the rights afforded every other community member in our respective countries, I think that we, the gay community as a whole, are a political movement whether we are actively involved or not, and as such I will argue the need for the flag and other symbols.
Also: Here, the Aborigines do have a flag. Red and black, with a yellow disc.
chitown_mofo said There could have been some thoughtful discussions (some people made an effort) to what was intended to be a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek posting, but apparently even bringing it up means I'm against all things gay and ignorant to the plight of the gay movement.
It's not anti-gay to dislike the flag. I think your post just came off too harshly, and you were suggesting its abolition in its entirety. I think it was the "show tunes and drag queens gay" bit that's screwed you over.
You don't need a flag or a symbol to be gay. You don't need a stereotype either. Having said that, how many lesbians go for short boyish hairstyles when they come out? How many gay guys go ultra-faggy? I think they do it so that they feel they can be found. "This is what an (Insert orientation/gender Here) looks like, so if I look like and look for this, I'll meet some others like me"
You don't have to use the flag or any other symbol. But how else can we find each other with out symbols? Unlike the various ethnic communinites we don't have a common language to help us find each other. Symbols are used by every group to self identify and congregate.
How else can these businesses identify themselves to their target market? Just because you know it's gay friendly doesn't mean a visitor or newcomer to the city does. No one forces businesses to use these symbols, they use they because they work for what the business wants them to do.
And since you are lucky enought to live in a large city with (I am assuming) an relativly accepting population, you may not see the need to identify and create a space of our own. You are lucky. Not everyone else is.
So my answer is yes we need a flag. A community cant exist without means of identifacation and points of reference.
dcarm said It's not anti-gay to dislike the flag. I think your post just came off too harshly, and you were suggesting its abolition in its entirety. I think it was the "show tunes and drag queens gay" bit that's screwed you over.
I think Mofo needs to spend some time in backwoods georgia, then he'll know how beautiful a sight the gay rainbow can really be. I dont think he would find it so tacky if he saw it while being chased by the Good 'ol boys
dcarm said I think it was the "show tunes and drag queens gay" bit that's screwed you over.
And here all the time I thought it was his DNA.
And that would be the basis of my earlier comment, Sir. Yes he is somehwat of an asshole, but when the thread got serious and he was providing more thoughtful responses, you started making comments like this. Sadly, I agree with your stance more than his. But his points were legitimate, and you resorted to this crap. Now if you think you are gonna start it with me, im afraid im not as stubborn, so you are on ignore mode, sir.
Caslon6000 said You notice he doesnt back it up! ...oh d'oh! ...that requires thought ...seems like the newbies arrived on the the short of bus. ....actually, you completely bored with your "I actually think you did a poor job of debating him on the topic Caslon." ...if you are going to say that you gotta back it up ....or STFU...cuz it is just rude!
I'd say your poor debating started about here. I was unsure about your "stop being a little dick" comment too.
Caslon6000 saidYour basic criticism wasnt about flying a flag...it was about the appearance of the flag. Your objection to displaying the rainbow flag was cuz you dont like the looks of it ...You're switching arguments to suit your current point. ...Try to keep your argument on topic, please.
Flags are to be displayed, to be seen. He questioned the need for a flag, and he's right, that does have bearing on the display of it. Or does the display of it have bearing on the need for it... either way, they are certainly related. Resorting to this:
Caslon6000 said Whining is easy....babies whine...it takes an adult to come up with a solution
is a sure sign that you shouldn't be hitting that "submit" button.
I think that the flag is 'Tacky' because it needed to be. History shows that pressure was put to bear on GLBT community to vanish into the background. Don't be seen, don't be heard. Dont ask Dont Tell is still the policy in the Military.
The symbol's purpose has been to ADVERTISE gayness. No apologies. Believe me, there are some good gay designers who could come up with infinite symbols that wouldn't offend you. They also wouldn't get noticed by passers by. A symbol with discordant colors is far more noticable. The flag works on a couple levels - because the Rainbow is both a naturally occuring phenomena and it is a mix of colors that defy attempts to 'blend in' or 'work together' or 'coordinate'. You call it 'Tacky', but the afront to your senses is deliberate - and effective at doing what is needed: ALERTING all who come near that GLBT tolerance is appropriate at this location. (So I guess it probably was designed by a talented gay artist - i.e. Baker.)
Bias does exist and I think it always will. People have a natural inclination to categorize themselves. It gives them a sense of identity. It also makes them display bias. It's not going away. It's human nature.
So, yes we need a flag. Sorry its 'Tacky', but the point and power of it is that it is noticable. The goal was not 'Lets have a symbol that everyone will look good wearing. Or that will go in any room.' They would have just put a little black dress on a flagpole.
Establishments often cater to niches. Slapping up the Rainbow Flag advertises your niche. Bars with Harley symbols are looking for bikers. Restraunts with clowns are looking for familys.
There are people who don't want to enter an establishment and be surrounded by GLBT persons. Not saying they are sensible, but they don't want to be there and why take down the symbol - they'd get in, settled into a table, place their food order, then leave afronted when they see a couple guys at the next table give a love peck on the cheek or hold hands.
So, YES we need a flag. And YES it is designed to be OBVIOUS - not subtle.
But if you'd like, you can fly a little black dress on a pole from your porch. It might look good, but it would blend in and alot of people would ignore it.
If you've ever gone someplace you aren't familiar with, its comforting to see the rainbow flag on homes and businesses. Its is a way of saying the establishment is 'out' without having someone yelling it from a bullhorn. So while it is visually OBVIOUS, its audibly inoffensive. I mean you'd really love it if everytime you got close to a raniblow flag that it also played, "Somewhere over the rainbow" in a constant loop.
John43620 saidIt takes a lot of guts to wear a rainbow or a pink triangle in public.
OMG. For the first time, I agree with John43620.
The flag is an icon, and because it is an icon, you don't change it...just like you don't change the Star Spangled Banner, even if it is imperfect or difficult to sing or not well composed.
What I see in this thread is that some responses indicate that the responder is not that concerned with the design of the flag, but are REALLY upset that it says "we are gay...." Is a little self-hate coming out?????
I've grown tired of many of the gay symbols out there.
Gay-associated words I have come to hate in the context of gayness include "Big" "Out" "Closet" "Comming out" "Pride" etc etc. It's just tiring to see every single gay event described by some combination of the above words, to the point where I've start to avoid events named in this manner even if they seem otherwise interesting. The rainbow and pink things are also a bit tiring. It's not that I dislike the rainbow or would like a different symbol or color, it's just that I think it's a little tacky to "wear your sexuality" in this manner. On the other hand, it is kind of useful in identifying other possible gays.
BottomLine, if you don't like the flag, don't look at it. As I already stated, It has a place, a purpose, and a past. The most important aspect of the gay flag is that it is different and not just a little: it is LOUD, COLORFUL, LOOK AT ME: YOU CAN'T MISS ME, DIFFERENT! This is the reasoning behind its flamboyant colors.
You and your flag bashing friends here just illustrate that point. The way you are freaking out over a harmless symbol, one of a beautiful rainbow no less, is the same way society has and still does behave towards your harmless and beautiful lifestyle. Go back and look at all of your ignorant rancerous comments towards the gay flag to just about anyone who had a differing opinion than your own because it is GAY! THAT'S YOU! Sample your own hate: this is the same onslaught of disdain, anger, resentment, and indifference aimed at you simply because you are gay in society everyday.
This is why the gay flag is still needed, to beat hatred like that back. Why? Because some people cannot count on inner strenght. They need something tangible to rally them against oppression or just plain unite them.
I know, you'll write some fool hardy retort about how you've never encountered hatred and you're all adjusted....wait. Live a little first. If it makes you feel any better, you've invoked my ire not because you are gay, but because you cannot back up your opinions with reasons.
You just don't like it. That's all I heard. If you went into any detail further on, I don't know because after about the fifth post from you, I started skipping them. Post after post you made no sense, just displayed more anger. Just wanton anger that seems blind to me.
Here you are scrambling around in the darkness, can you think of a guide or beacon light enough, bright enough, prominent enough to guide you out? Something loud and colorful, hard to mistake for anything else except a pointer leading you to community, acceptance, love and unity if you so needed it? If you weren't above it all and perceived those things weren't around? If not, we really don't have anything more to discuss.
chitown_mofo saidI'm a little biased here, because I don't care too much for the rainbow. But nonetheless, do gays really need a flag anymore? I'm all for giving props to the gays who came before me and advanced the culture and all, but it's kinda tacky at this point. It served a purpose back in the proverbial day, but now I think its just unnecessary and cheesy. And its really, really, really, umm...GAY!!! Not "guy humping guy" gay, more like "show tunes and drag queens" gay.
If we need a flag, maybe a new flag with a silhouette of two guys humping? I'd like that alot more than the rainbow. Thats a bumper sticker I'd be willing to put on my car.
Hey dude, i totally agree with you. Im not going to waste my time coming up with reasons i agree because ill just get called a closet case by the old timers. Dont worry, we're a new generation o gay men that dont need to separate ourselves from society. We know that we're accepted by those that matter and any others could go to hell, their criminals for not accepting us, so why do we even give them the time of day.
rowerboy saidHey dude, i totally agree with you. Im not going to waste my time coming up with reasons i agree because ill just get called a closet case by the old timers. Dont worry, we're a new generation o gay men that dont need to separate ourselves from society. We know that we're accepted by those that matter and any others could go to hell, their criminals for not accepting us, so why do we even give them the time of day.
QUOTEHey dude, i totally agree with you. Im not going to waste my time coming up with reasons i agree because ill just get called a closet case by the old timers. Dont worry, we're a new generation o gay men that dont need to separate ourselves from society. We know that we're accepted by those that matter and any others could go to hell, their criminals for not accepting us, so why do we even give them the time of day.
Exactly, I don't see blatant displays of your sexuality as necessary. Moreover I find things that, as GG said, are "LOUD, COLORFUL, LOOK AT ME: YOU CAN'T MISS ME, DIFFERENT!" to be extremely obnoxious and juvenile, be it in a symbol, a person, or anything else. I can only hope that there will be a time where the gay community will be mature enough and sure enough of itself to not need such things, to where we consider ourselves no more different from straights than how different a blonde person considers himself from a dark haired person, and where straights consider us in this light as well. But let's not kid ourselves, this time has not yet come, so we'll have to endure this "loudness" for a little while longer. Hopefully once we've gotten equal rights and don't need the extra attention we'll be able to get rid of it. We'll see.
So ur saying that i dont remember this right? I applaud your efforts however i fully do recall this and dont sir, for one second, think that his death missed my mind when forming my views.
Im disgusted by your use of his death in your cheaply delivered shot.
I have some close friends who were beaten while on vacation in Mexico because they were gay. One has permanent damage to his ear. I take the issue of violence against gays very seriously.
I dont think its fair to use Matthew Shepard to call out people who dont like the Rainbow Flag. No one on here has said anything about hating gays or supporting violence against them. To equate that argument with indifference to something like what happened to Matthew Shepard rubs me the wrong way, quite honestly.
I don't like this idea of 'doing away with the rainbow flag' anymore than you, and I'm not accusing you of exploiting him for the sake of your own arguments, I just think you need to be a little more restrained when bringing something like Matthew Shepard into the discussion.
My only problem with getting rid of the rainbow flag is that I'm so used to seeing it wherever I go.
Whether I pass by a bookstore in Pittsburgh or a bar in Rehoboth, that stupid flag is a part of my culture. When I drive by a place I don't know really well and I see it, I feel a part of something greater, and I feel comforted to know I'm amongst friends.
WHY WOULD ANY OF YOU JERKS WANT TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME???????
That's what the flag stands for ... the flag that offends yours eyes ...oh, look away! ...how garish! ...how ubiquitous! ...we dont want to reminded ...let us melt back into society because it suits our lives and where we live.
It's not like the rainbow flag was picked from a few alternatives. We didn't vote on it or anything like that. Symbols aren't just symbols because we ascribe them meaning on a whim. The rainbow flag, through years of civil rights fights, has endured to become a symbol of our community, what we stand for, and our willingness to fight for it. That being said, symbols do come and go. The rainbow flag as it stands today is only the latest incarnation of the rainbow flag; having seen 5 previous phenotypes. The flag will undoubtedly change with the times. Until then, I'm proud to have it.
Caslon6000 saidThat's what the flag stands for ... the flag that offends yours eyes ...oh, look away! ...how garish! ...how ubiquitous! ...we dont want to reminded ...let us melt back into society because it suits our lives and where we live.
That may be what it means to you, but to tell somneone who doesn't like the rainbow flag that they are in any way are less sympathetic to Matthew Shepard, is not only exploitative, but it doesn't even make sense. I did not hear one mention from any of these guys that they are any less supportive of gay rights.
I think the point that was being made here was that a flag doesn't represent someones views or identity as a gay man (I think). To turn that into someone being unsympathetic to gay violence is offensive and illogical.
It reminds me of Republicans using the people who died in 9/11 to make those who oppose the war in Iraq out to be unsympathetic to the families of the victims. You are unfairly exploiting a tradgedy to further your point when it is not even relevant.
I oppose getting rid of the rainbow flag, but i would never, ever, try to tell someone who doesn't like it that they are in any way unsympathetic to gay violence.
Glenn1388 saidIt's not like the rainbow flag was picked from a few alternatives. We didn't vote on it or anything like that. Symbols aren't just symbols because we ascribe them meaning on a whim. The rainbow flag, through years of civil rights fights, has endured to become a symbol of our community, what we stand for, and our willingness to fight for it. That being said, symbols do come and go. The rainbow flag as it stands today is only the latest incarnation of the rainbow flag; having seen 5 previous phenotypes. The flag will undoubtedly change wit the times. Until then, I'm proud to have it.
Wow this one really caused a stir! I can see the point that Cas keeps making but I think things have perhaps blown out of proportion.
Personally I don't like the flag either, just as I don't like how government agencies in NZ refer to gay, transgendered etc people as 'queer' because that 'covers everyone' - it sure does, but have you looked up the definition of 'queer' lately?
Whilst I don't like the flag, I think it is rather pig-headed to assume that having a flag is a constant reminder of what came before - the fact that so many posts have focussed on the history of the flag indicates that awareness of the flag and where it came from isn't that big.
I appreciate the independence and rights I have now - which I have learnt about from a teacher I know who protested back in the day to achieve equal rights and from the books I have read, not from a flag.
I think it is sad that someone cannot pose a simple question without being persecuted for it.
So in summary chitown_mofo, I agree, no I don't think we need a flag anymore. If people still want a flag, let them have it. Caslon6000 I hear your points but ask that you open your mind to another's opinion.
Again, you cant seem to differentiate between my criticism of the flag and being unappreciative of what previous gays have done for us.
You left a bad impression by starting this post with your suggestion for a new flag of two men humping. Of which, you later claimed was a joke. Whether you were serious or joking it was definitely a tacky thing to say.
I took the time to express what the flag means, where it came from, etc. Any person with an average level of intelligence could appreciate this. It's fine if you still find it tacky. You have a right to your opinion. But you disregard the message and that says a lot. And even though you claimed to joke that your ideal for a new gay flag should be of two men humping that also says a lot. Whether serious or not, you basically trivialized the message of human rights for the GLBT community by suggesting an image of two men having sex.
Why should anyone with any degree of respect for others find your tasteless jokes funny? Not only did you reduce a much more powerful message to a lewd image of two people having sex but it also shows you don't think much about lesbians or bisexuals or transgendered peoples.
Maybe for you being gay is all about gay sex but for a lot of other gay people it means a lot more. People like to have symbols. Let them have their symbols and shut up already. There are flags for all different sorts of things. There are awareness ribbons people wear to express their awareness for things like breast cancer, AIDS, and just about any other disease.
Sometimes when I'm in my car and I'm obsessed with my own thoughts and just carrying on with life I may see a car in front of me with that cool looking decal on the back of their bumper where the colors are vertically positioned but it's horizontally a very long and very super thin decal that fits the entire length of their bumper. I'm sure you guys know which one I'm referring to. Well, when I see this it's nice to know that there are others like me out in areas that are pretty much a predominantly straight neighborhood.
Whats wrong with the flag, other than the fact that i dont like it for aesthetic reasons (Showtunes gay, etc), is that it almost seems like we cannot have bars, stores, etc without flying this thing. EVERYWHERE! To me that is an indication that we feel the need to make it clear that this is 'Gay Territory', 'A Place for Gays'. If you are a gay business = you need to fly a rainbow flag.
This matter really is so trivial. This whole flag issue really bothers you and that's a bit odd. The next time you go to a gay bar and you see the flag just follow these easy steps: Close your eyes. Click your shiny glittery red high heel shoes 3 times. And say: There's no place like home. Keep chanting it while you do an about face, and march out the bar and take your overly critical ass home.
Along the way be sure to add a few heel clicking movements because...... it's just so much fun. And of course, don't forget your lacy ankle gym socks also.
Wanted to share this with you bitches cuz I thought it was cool but MO FO of course will find it tacky.
It's called a fire rainbow and is extremely rare.
A fire rainbow, is a halo or an optical phenomenon similar in appearance to a horizontal rainbow, but in contrast caused by the refraction of light through the ice crystals in cirrus clouds.
It occurs only when the sun is high in the sky, at least 58° above the horizon, and can only occur in the presences of cirrus clouds. It can thus not be observed at locations north of 55°N or south of 55°S, except occasionally at higher latitudes from mountains.
I may not always agree with Caslon's method, but in this case the two of you who are beating him up for conjuring the story of Matthew Shephard seem to me a bit phony. One of you even conjured your own friends demise in Mexico in the very same post. Neither is exploitation and both cases are relevant to the discussion. I personally don't see that either of you are any more noble or hotter for coming to Shepherd's defense where none was necessary (just in case, somewhere in your subconscious, that's what you were going for).
A) Judy Shephard could have demanded privacy and an end to the dialog, but she didn't. She made the choice to shed light on her tragedy to help eradicate the hate that claimed his son's life. I have a hunch she would encourage further dialog in the name of her son. Just a hunch...admittedly I don't know her, so please refrain from nicking me on this one.
B) The guys who beat and killed Matthew Shephard were ignorant and afraid. Again, ignorance and fear slowly go away when awareness and understanding spread. Since we are not plainly visible, our symbols help remind others that we are where everyone is, and that the world (or even a small city) will not end due to our existence. Perhaps, just perhaps, if there were more rainbow stickers in Laramie, then this tragedy would have been slightly less likely to occur. Maybe some of you think that is a stretch to say, but I'm pretty sure it would have helped more than hurt (especially if one of those stickers was on a jacked-up ford F-250 with a real roughneck behind the wheel).
So thanks to Caslon for adding a little perspective to the discussion, because, yes, in some areas our visibility is still a matter of life or death.
blink777 saidAnyone else have a hard time colour coordinating rainbows into their outfits? Or am I just not gay enough yet?
see, statements like this just sorta piss me off
Haha, in what way? That I'm trivializing the argument with humour?
Trust me, you'll never want to take anything I say in a "heated discussion" (*insert RPY's collection of flamewar pictures here*) seriously: 99% of the time, I'm just joking around.
relyt said I appreciate the independence and rights I have now - which I have learnt about from a teacher I know who protested back in the day to achieve equal rights and from the books I have read, not from a flag.
This is sort of like saying that while you like living in an independent, free nation, any of the nation's emblems can just be retired forever because you can learn your nation's history from books.
Of course the flag won't teach you the history of the movement, but it symbolizes it. To try and get rid of it is like saying that now that your fight has been fought and won (only in the place you're living, mind you) for you, you are willing to forget the efforts of the people who fought it.
It's not like that at all. Why do nations have flags and emblems? Mainly it is so that they can differentiate themselves from other nations and to have a sense of unity that exists among them but not among people in other nations.
Is this what we want? Personally, I would much more prefer to integrate with the general society, not to separate myself from it. I don't mean to act like them and hide the fact that I'm gay from them. Instead, I mean to be as I am, and be considered a part of them, to where I don't need to point to a flag or symbol and say "Look, this represents me, but not you!" I think by clinging to this idea of non-integration is stupid. It's a necessary evil now because we still don't have full rights under the law, but at some point it needs to go away, and the symbols need to be come historical representations of the struggles rather than present representations of who the gay community currently is.
Errmmmm.... I'm young, I'm well-adjusted into society and I like the Rainbow flag. I am happy to participate in the LGBT community, but most of my life is spent with my friends, who are of mixed orientation and gender (mostly straight actually but some gay and lesbian), my students (whose orientation, gender and colour are irrelevant to me) and my family (who are all straight).
This isn't an age issue, this isn't about conforming to a society whose standards and institutions are presumed without question to be worthy of our participation. This is about nothing less than asserting the virtue of diversity. This is about those of us who are relatively invisible in society (those of us whose sexuality isn't instantaneously questioned) standing alongside those who are not and asserting that their freedom is as important as ours. And we can do this as gay people, lesbians, allies or whatever.
If you don't like the rainbow, don't wear it. But don't suggest that two men fucking is an appropriate replacement. Where are the lesbians? Where are the transgender people? Where are the allies? Because even on your own terms, society is about far more than who you fuck. And if your own participation in LGBT society is merely fucking, then you are part of the problem and your actions only serve to strengthen the closet. You cannot disengage from the fact that what we each do to each other affects all of us.
The rainbow flag symbol serves to integrate us by making our presence visible in the larger society. It does not segregate us. If it didn't exist, we'd be virtually invisible, which would badly segregate us because we'd go back to being some obscure, misunderstood, scary problem to many, and perhaps then eventually most people.
Once we've achieved true equality and acceptance, the flag would only serve as a reminder of our past struggles and take on a strictly historical significance.
But we're not even close to being there yet, and even in big cities there's more work to be done.
Anyone who says the flag is obsolete I challenge to walk any street in this country hand-in-hand with his boyfriend. If that makes you uncomfortable for some reason, then you still need a symbol of our collective presence.
A rainbow is refracted/bent light occuring in the air/atmosphere due to water molecules, an object which can be seen but not grasped as its apperance is due to the position of the viewer (an optical illusion). Ephemeral and "no where", the rainbow knows no boundaries of country, nation, race, age, or gender...it is a gift to any and all, possibly divine. The rainbow is a beautiful and enigmatic symbol to use...even if its symbolism is only superficially considered by many in the community.
That said, I love the implication of the rainbow flag but feel there's a slight camp element to it which betrays the edge and strength with which lgbt people possess in real life...perhaps its time to redesign the symbol or improve upon it?
I get what the original poster is saying even the way he said it was a bit homophobic.
Jackal69 saidA rainbow is refracted/bent light occuring in the air/atmosphere due to water molecules, an object which can be seen but not grasped as its apperance is due to the position of the viewer (an optical illusion).
It is actually white light that is separated having passed through a refractive index gradient due to varying density of water molecules and occurs because of wavelength-dependence (dispersion) of the refractive index.
It is a brilliant metaphor because it shows that something apparently homogenous and indivisible (i.e. white light) is composed of many different things, each of which are equally essential to the nature of the whole. It reveals a second way of looking at society: not only as a homogenous total but as a group, a sum of the contributions of many unique and valuable human beings.
Rune saidIt's not like that at all. Why do nations have flags and emblems? Mainly it is so that they can differentiate themselves from other nations and to have a sense of unity that exists among them but not among people in other nations.
Is this what we want? Personally, I would much more prefer to integrate with the general society, not to separate myself from it. I don't mean to act like them and hide the fact that I'm gay from them. Instead, I mean to be as I am, and be considered a part of them, to where I don't need to point to a flag or symbol and say "Look, this represents me, but not you!" I think by clinging to this idea of non-integration is stupid. It's a necessary evil now because we still don't have full rights under the law, but at some point it needs to go away, and the symbols need to be come historical representations of the struggles rather than present representations of who the gay community currently is.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
And it is. What you're trying to say is that you'd rather turn a blind eye to all that had to be done in order for you to be able to express your sexuality freely and without fear of repression in order to blend in with "general society".
Rune saidIt's not like that at all. Why do nations have flags and emblems? Mainly it is so that they can differentiate themselves from other nations and to have a sense of unity that exists among them but not among people in other nations.
Is this what we want? Personally, I would much more prefer to integrate with the general society, not to separate myself from it. I don't mean to act like them and hide the fact that I'm gay from them. Instead, I mean to be as I am, and be considered a part of them, to where I don't need to point to a flag or symbol and say "Look, this represents me, but not you!" I think by clinging to this idea of non-integration is stupid. It's a necessary evil now because we still don't have full rights under the law, but at some point it needs to go away, and the symbols need to be come historical representations of the struggles rather than present representations of who the gay community currently is.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
And it is. What you're trying to say is that you'd rather turn a blind eye to all that had to be done in order for you to be able to express your sexuality freely and without fear of repression in order to blend in with "general society".
Go ahead, blend in.
Wow Dude. You completely missed Rune's point. You act as if he wished he could be straight.
XRuggerATX saidWow Dude. You completely missed Rune's point. You act as if he wished he could be straight.
Nice zebras, black-and-white, hyperbolic thinker.
I don't agree. Even if LGBT people enjoyed equality, the rainbow is still as relevant as I have described above. Although I have some sympathy for Rune's viewpoint, it seems to me that his presumption that equality in a hypothetical future renders the celebration of diversity as a virtue irrelevant to be if not completely false, then certainly open to question.
XRuggerATX saidWow Dude. You completely missed Rune's point. You act as if he wished he could be straight.
Nice zebras, black-and-white, hyperbolic thinker.
I don't agree. Even if LGBT people enjoyed equality, the rainbow is still as relevant as I have described above. Although I have some sympathy for Rune's viewpoint, it seems to me that his presumption that equality in a hypothetical future renders the celebration of diversity as a virtue irrelevant to be if not completely false, then certainly open to question.
Why does the choice have to be to completely assimilate into the population or completely differentiate from it. Personally, I think that there are aspects where you can differentiate yourself and other aspects where you blend in. However, where you draw the line is up to the individual and should not be foisted upon others. What's right for you may not be right for anyone else, regardless of how well it works for you.
Keep the rainbow. theres a lot of history in that flag alone, if it aint broke dont fix it!. Its like changing the American flag- we dont need to do that, obviously.
Some People Continue To Be Wrong No Matter What You Tell Them Or What Evil They Do.
................................................
In the past, I have had severe reservations about remaining a member of this site (and before my rivals agree that I leave: go blow yourselves, I'm not leaving), however, I have considered it. I have noticed a propensity among some of you to disvalue and downright put down feminine traits, gay traits, and different traits. It makes me sick. You seem so eager to conform by covering up your gayness with muscle and putting on this tough guy act that is so false. You'd do anything to cover up what you are. I am all for fitness and improving yourself, but mental health is important to me also.
I'm gonna qualify something ChuckyStud said and suggest that some of you bitches seek professional help immediately! I won't name names because I feel typing your name on my keyboard would get my keys dirty, but the guy who told me that the gay flag is childish and obnoxious because it is "look at me GAY" and the men who are raking Caslon 6000 over the coals for linking the flag to Mathew Shepard...PLEASE GET HELP! You hate gays and I'll tell you why: the OP said again and again he hates the flag because it is GAY, you gentlemen I mentioned said you don't like seeing GAY up: it is childish and obnoxious, and Mathew Shepard was killed brutally because he was GAY! You fucks just got your panties in a twist over that graphic because the brutal reality that both the deceased and the flag are gay symbols must have finally triggered a synapse fire. However, to cloak your hate, you tried to seperate the two again. There is no seperation; when that boy died in the manner in which he did, he became a symbol, a part of our tumultuous past, and another catalyst for future change: another name in a long list that is represented everytime the gay flag is waved.
With all of this unprovoked hatred for all things visibly gay, I wonder how you people feel about limp wristers, drag queens, cross dressers, fems, and trans gender. They are part of our community. It is the LBGT community not the RJ community. These are people when they walk down the street they are everything the gay flag is: visibly apparent. I suppose that makes them tacky and childish too and worthy of negation?
Please, don't rebut me and tell me that's not what you said or how you feel. It's exactly what you said because we are talking about a symbol of GAY, a reaffirmation of GAY, here and the afore mentioned posters expressed hatred, annoyance and indifference of it. Mathew Shepard's death was a hate crime, those men beat him because he was GAY. There is no difference between their hatred of a visibly gay person and your hatred of a visibly gay symbol because you both hate them because they are gay. That doesn't make you guys killers, but it does make you hateful and yes, anti-gay to a degree. I do believe in a gay anti-gay hoard and I strongly believe I have met some of its generals and faction leaders on this thread today!
I find you most unwholesome, but Uuuuugh, I don't hate anything and I won't start now, but you sisters are truly twisted and you need some fucking help. In the meantime, I 'll keep waving my flag. I dare you to try and stop me, I'd love a reason to pop you so hard you see rainbows right before you hit the dirt.
Guilty said "In the past, I have had severe reservations about remaining a member of this site (and before my rivals agree that I leave: go blow yourselves, I'm not leaving), however, I have considered it. I have noticed a propensity among some of you to disvalue and downright put down feminine traits, gay traits, and different traits. It makes me sick. You seem so eager to conform by covering up your gayness with muscle and putting on this tough guy act that is so false. You'd do anything to cover up what you are. I am all for fitness and improving yourself, but mental health is important to me also."
I have left more than once. However, this is a nice place, and you know it.
Plus, you actually have a little obligation to people who aren't as DIMENSIONAL as you are to keep things on an even keel. It is a sort of "pronto soccorso (first aid) obligation.
Poor mental health is only slightly infectious. You are really in no danger.
Finally, think of the sexual innuendo you'd miss, such as,
"SIR, please permit me to lick your GODlike black ass until your eyes roll back in your head and it spins like Linda Blair in the exorcist (no vomit required)." OK, that isn't innuendo but it is the general idea.
Cas, good eye buddy. Oh and GG, everyday you amaze me. Such a small town and such a large mind. Everyone will know, I think you are a wise man. I don't even agree w/everything you say, ( like that DAMN auto play shit) yet I can still say that you are wise. Ursa, baby go for it.
Okay buds, im not puttin down feminine acting people, if thats how u act thats all good, go on with it. I just go by what feels natural, and those two nuts between my legs influence me to act in a certain way and i will not put on a different personality to look and act differently. Some of your comments "guiltygear" make as though because I am attracted to the same sex I should act differently from what genetically I am supposed to. Im not in the mood to argue, im just telling you straight up that you have no right to tell "masculine" acting men (which just sounds odd to say) that because one is gay they're supposed to limp their wrist, highten their voice, etc.
rowerboy saidOkay buds, im not puttin down feminine acting people, if thats how u act thats all good, go on with it. I just go by what feels natural, and those two nuts between my legs influence me to act in a certain way and i will not put on a different personality to look and act differently. Some of your comments "guiltygear" make as though because I am attracted to the same sex I should act differently from what genetically I am supposed to. Im not in the mood to argue, im just telling you straight up that you have no right to tell "masculine" acting men (which just sounds odd to say) that because one is gay they're supposed to limp their wrist, highten their voice, etc.
I didn't say that. I'm more masculine than you. Infact, i've got more masculinity in one pubic hair than you've got in your whole body. I said that feminine acting people shouldn't be treated with indifference by members of their own community and that these people who hate the gay flag because it is visibly gay, in essence, hate people who are visibly gay. Please tell me WHAT comments I made that make you think I want anyone to change. Either that or re-read my post with your head pointing at the screen this time instead of up your ass.
rowerboy saidOkay buds, im not puttin down feminine acting people, if thats how u act thats all good, go on with it. I just go by what feels natural, and those two nuts between my legs influence me to act in a certain way and i will not put on a different personality to look and act differently. Some of your comments "guiltygear" make as though because I am attracted to the same sex I should act differently from what genetically I am supposed to. Im not in the mood to argue, im just telling you straight up that you have no right to tell "masculine" acting men (which just sounds odd to say) that because one is gay they're supposed to limp their wrist, highten their voice, etc.
What his point was is that he just wishes you "masculine" men would stop trying to degayify the world, stop looking down on fem men.
For example: look at the language you used. You've implied that fem men don't have nuts, or that they don't influence how they behave. You've also implied that fem men are acting differently to how they are "genetically supposed to"
Obviously that's not what you actually meant, so hopefully you'll clarify things.
rowerboy saidOkay buds, im not puttin down feminine acting people, if thats how u act thats all good, go on with it. I just go by what feels natural, and those two nuts between my legs influence me to act in a certain way and i will not put on a different personality to look and act differently. Some of your comments "guiltygear" make as though because I am attracted to the same sex I should act differently from what genetically I am supposed to. Im not in the mood to argue, im just telling you straight up that you have no right to tell "masculine" acting men (which just sounds odd to say) that because one is gay they're supposed to limp their wrist, highten their voice, etc.
GuiltyGear didn't say that gay men are supposed to be feminine acting.
And so now, you are a liar, which is only going to make still more people ignore you. Nice going.
But hey, you still have those nuts to define you for...
I think we are all entitled to have a different aesthetic. Pretending you know anyones motives about why they dislike the rainbow flag is a slippery slope. You can be aware of and appreciate your gay history and those that came before you and not feel the need to wave the flag. You can treat everyone with respect and compassion and still not feel pride when you see a rainbow. We all have different symbols and experiences that shape how we feel joy and pride. I am not hiding in a closet but I also don't love rainbow flags. I never thought it was an issue we all had to agree on. You can be active in the gay community, go out and do great things for others and still prefer your dates to be non stereotypical. Having one set of standards does not mean you are ungrateful, it just means you have a "type". I have never been one to need a mold so I don't embrace rigid standards of what it means to be a man but I don't belittle those that do. I am tired of everyone acting so victimized by everyone on here who has an opinion that differs from the standard and isn't all inclusive. Living out loud and making your community a better place is more valuable than waving a rainbow flag, in my opinion. Loving a flag, not loving a flag.... eh, who cares.
QUOTEAnd it is. What you're trying to say is that you'd rather turn a blind eye to all that had to be done in order for you to be able to express your sexuality freely and without fear of repression in order to blend in with "general society".
That's not what I said at all. I wonder why the main arguments of the super-pro-flag side include reading into people what they are saying and what they think.
Your point about not forgetting history is well taken, but there is a delicate balance to consider here. You can't want, on the one hand, to be considered an equal part of some group, and on the other, to want to constantly tell that group at every turn that you aren't part of their group. Do you think gays are the only people who experienced a fight? Not at all. Nearly every group has been discriminated against by various people around the world, be it various racial groups, religious groups, etc. We need to take example from the groups that have managed successful integration, and we also need to look at the ones which have not and understand why. If we are forever holding a chip on our shoulder about how wronged we have been in our past and even how wronged we continue to be now, if we can't put our differences with the general society aside, they will never be able to trully accept us because we haven't trully accepted them. I'm not talking about mere tolerance here, tolerance is not a sufficient condition. Like I said, right now we continue to be wronged and therefore we need to stay united in our community and with our symbols, but as society starts to accept us more and more, we'll need to start accepting THEM more and more as well. And it's not really an issue of keeping the flag. It's more of an issue of keeping the US vs. THEM mentallity that BOTH sides have toward eachother. The existance of symbols keeps this mentality active and strong, and as for the gays who are arguing for abolishing symbols it is really this mentallity that they want to abolish, not the history, not the struggles. I personally don't think that getting rid of the flag, or the triangle, or any other individual symbol is an absolute requirement to get rid of the US vs. THEM mentality, but the more of them we have around, and the more reminders that there is an US vs. THEM, the more difficult it becomes.
As for identifying gay businesses, I hope I get to live in a society where this isn't really necessary any more. I would prefer to go to a club where both straight and gay couples are out drinking and dancing than one where it's all one or the other. There should still be room for the occasional gay bar for those who are really into easy hookups, I suppose, just from a purely functional stand-point. But I really hope that these places are not needed as a safe-haven for us in the future like they are now.
GG seriously I'm not sure what to say to that post. Maybe instead of me arguing my side, you can just make another account, name it Rune2 (or someone else who opposes your view even more strongly) and just post what you're convinced I think, and argue back and forth with yourself that way, since it seems it's pretty much what you've done there.
The flag is not about how wronged we were. It's about how strong we were.
And the idea that keeping rainbow flags and our Pride ceremonies and things of this nature puts forward an "us vs. them" mentality is extremely disingenious. Almost all straight people who are supportive of gay rigths are not against any of those things. We have shown that we can be part of this society while retaining our own identity, and I think the gay community has walked that line very well.
The idea that one day, we are all going to be in a utopia America where everyone thinks the same way about gays is just as disingenious. There will always be some bigots willing to cloak themselves with good deeds and quietly wage a culture war on us. That's why we should never forget (nor let any one else forget) that we are all in this together. And the moment that one person or one group is denied equal rights, all society suffers.
styrgan saidRune: The flag is not about how wronged we were. It's about how strong we were.
And the idea that keeping rainbow flags and our Pride ceremonies and things of this nature puts forward an "us vs. them" mentality is extremely disingenious. Almost all straight people who are supportive of gay rigths are not against any of those things. We have shown that we can be part of this society while retaining our own identity, and I think the gay community has walked that line very well.
The idea that one day, we are all going to be in a utopia America where everyone thinks the same way about gays is just as disingenious. There will always be some bigots willing to cloak themselves with good deeds and quietly wage a culture war on us. That's why we should never forget (nor let any one else forget) that we are all in this together. And the moment that one person or one group is denied equal rights, all society suffers.
QUOTEAlmost all straight people who are supportive of gay rigths are not against any of those things
In fact this isn't true. I've talked to many straight people who are not against us or our rights but don't understand the obsession our community has with being so "loud" as another poster put it. In any case, this isn't even the correct consideration. What you need to consider instead is how many of the people who are against gay rights are in part making their decision because of how different (be it though flags and otherwise) we have convinced them that we are, when the ONLY difinitive difference between us and them is that we have sex with members of our own sex. Let's go back to the gays who were assaulted for example. Do you think most of those assaults were done in the name of religion or some other such reason, or do you think it's more reasonable that they were done because those gays were perceived on some level as simply being too different? I'd say the latter. Not that I'm excusing such actions based on something as trivial as "being too different" or suggesting that we should abolish our symbols in fear that we'll get beaten. No, the first move is theirs to make. But once they've made it, once they've offered us a hand to join them, we need to also make an attempt to do so by putting the past behind us. Not forgetting it, but nevertheless not carrying it around with us everywhere either. Of course, this "extending a hand" process is gradual, and as they slowly extend their hand we need to also begin extending ours back, or it will never trully work.
You're right though, flags, symbols, and what not, people will eventaully tolerate us, and the way western culture seems to be progressing in general it seems that our rights are inevitable. The question remains though, is this enough? Do we want to stand in opposition to general society, or with it? I personally prefer the latter.
And bigots might always exist, but if their number is marginalized then we're good. Like I said, many previously persecuted groups have achieved this, why should we be any different and fail at it?
In any case, like all other arguments, it isn't likely for us to convince eachother to change our minds right now and so it's not my goal, and I've pretty much said most of what I have to say on this topic. But even if you don't agree, I do hope that I've illustrated a more coherent point to the wish that some gays have to separate the community from these so called symbols than some others on this thread have been willing to give them credit for as evidenced by their extreme reactions to the symbol abolishing suggestions. By the way, if these reactions aren't telling of the US. vs. THEM mentality that these sorts of symbols and concepts inspire I don't know what is. "Oh no you don't like the flag, you MUST hate gays and want to forget those who fought for you! You must be one of THEM and not US!" Hmm where have I heard these types of arguments before? Patriotism, nationalism, religious-ism (yes, I make up words) and any other concept that supports the US vs THEM mentality is based on arguments just like these.
The Rainbow flag shows our diversity and our strenght from that diversity. It is a symbol of hope, community, safety and belonging. While I do get tired of seeing Rainbow flags being over commericalized. I still know that see it on a business or gym that is is accepting of gays.
Living in Boston, MA equality has been reach and gays are well integratred into society, but the flag style still is a symbol of where we came from and where we are going.
QUOTE GG seriously I'm not sure what to say to that post. Maybe instead of me arguing my side, you can just make another account, name it Rune2 (or someone else who opposes your view even more strongly) and just post what you're convinced I think, and argue back and forth with yourself that way, since it seems it's pretty much what you've done there.
Oh, is that what I did? I'll start by saying: the existence of a gay flag is not for the preservation of an Us vs.Them mentality, but it is just for us, to keep our community together. It is a tangible link, something that precipitates inner community growth, in my opinion. As this is my post, I don't feel the need to restate over and over again that I am asserting my opinions. However, I've tried to do it in as detailed a manner as possible. If I made a statement, I backed it up with fact or reasons. However, you have made a flat out satement about me, yet offer nothing to back it.
I've noticed that about those opposed to the flag here. Your convictions are so weak. You make these charged statements, but then you don't support them. Maybe you should adopt a flag to rally you, because without one, you seem very uninspired. Even the OP does better at retorting than you. He quotes the person and writes his remarks directly under whatever statement he's trying to flame. I appreciate knowing exactly where he is coming from even if he is always wrong.
never pretended to know what people are thinking, but this is a limited medium. Since this is a discussion forum, I have to try and figure out what you mean by what you write. On the matter of the OP and the likes of him, if I accused them of being anti gay or hateful, it was simply by a preponderance of the evidence that they provided themselves with their post, which do reflect their thoughts. Don't you agree, seeing as you did judge me by my post.
As far as opening a second account called Rune2, why would I? I never even recognized you existed before today and I'm hardly impressed, dear.
Ohhhh, a veiled personal attack! Maybe I should go cry now
Or on second thought, I think I'll just continue the trend of ignoring what you're saying, it seems to work well for both of us.
...Oh what the hell, I'll humor you with a requested 'quote' about the claim I made about you..
QUOTEbut the guy who told me that the gay flag is childish and obnoxious because it is "look at me GAY" and the men who are raking Caslon 6000 over the coals for linking the flag to Mathew Shepard...PLEASE GET HELP! You hate gays and I'll tell you why: the OP said again and again he hates the flag because it is GAY, you gentlemen I mentioned said you don't like seeing GAY up: it is childish and obnoxious
Here you are putting words in my mouth and going on to argue against them. Seems like you're telling me I hate gays here (I'm 'the guy') and that I don't want the flag up because it's gay. Uh no, I clearly stated I don't like all loud, attentionwhoring things regardless if they're gay or not, because that type of behavior is childish, obonoxious, and immature. Do you want things that represent you or people who you associate with to be like this? :
And sorry you didn't notice me before, I'll try posting more rainbows in the future
Like I said in another similar thread, I think Rune does have a point about how straight people view the gay flag, gay pride parades etc. as attempts by the gay community to distance themselves from the straight community. But they're mistaken. The purpose of those things is to benefit gay people, not to make statements to the rest of the world.
If people misinterpret them, that's fine. I can see why they would. Just clarify that's we're not trying to be loud, we're being proud. If they don't believe you then do the mature thing to do and punch them in the face and walk away.
QUOTE Oh, Runey... you're gay, so you're one of us whether you like the flag or not.
*Runs to find a girl to have sex with in sheer desperation and denial.*
No!
Look people, I know we all get passionate about certain subjects, but if we're making people think about having sex with girls then we've gone too far.
No one should be pushed to those limits. It's just not right.
I'm not a gigantic fan of the flag, but I have less problem with the flag itself than the rampant commercialization of the colors. I call all the rainbow colored merchandise GRAP -- Gay Crap! It's cheapened what the flag represents. And it's all the grap that most annoys me Pride,
I've been on the internet long enough to know that in fact, you did. And you're tempted to reply, but now that you've made the previous post, how will you do it? YOu'll have to go back on what you said! Ohhh, what to do, what to do?
I had a webbed belt with rainbow stripes circa 1980 that I wore with summer whites on Sundays. My brother's had anchors and and nautical flags. Maybe that had something to the strong aversion I've always had to seeing rainbow flags---until recently. Gone are the associations of crayola-coloured, penis-shaped pastas and Doug Henning braces; it's a cheerful rectangle of kindergarten hues.
QUOTEAlmost all straight people who are supportive of gay rigths are not against any of those things
In fact this isn't true. I've talked to many straight people who are not against us or our rights but don't understand the obsession our community has with being so "loud" as another poster put it. In any case, this isn't even the correct consideration. What you need to consider instead is how many of the people who are against gay rights are in part making their decision because of how different (be it though flags and otherwise) we have convinced them that we are, when the ONLY difinitive difference between us and them is that we have sex with members of our own sex. Let's go back to the gays who were assaulted for example. Do you think most of those assaults were done in the name of religion or some other such reason, or do you think it's more reasonable that they were done because those gays were perceived on some level as simply being too different? I'd say the latter. Not that I'm excusing such actions based on something as trivial as "being too different" or suggesting that we should abolish our symbols in fear that we'll get beaten. No, the first move is theirs to make. But once they've made it, once they've offered us a hand to join them, we need to also make an attempt to do so by putting the past behind us. Not forgetting it, but nevertheless not carrying it around with us everywhere either. Of course, this "extending a hand" process is gradual, and as they slowly extend their hand we need to also begin extending ours back, or it will never trully work.
I'm sure the straight people to which you're referring are the kind of people who don't hate you to your face. They hate you behind your back.
Get real! In the end, people don't make their political decisions based off how "loud" our community is. They make their decisions because they go to a church which tells them that fags are going to burn in hell. Our "loudness" may be icing on the cake for those people.
Do you think the same is true for the African American community - a community which is equally loud? Do you think the white folk at one point said, "Noooo.. I'm not racist because they used to be slaves or sat at the back of the bus or because I think they're mentally inferior. I'm racist because their churches are loud."
Interestingly, Bill O'Reilly used to make this exact same argument when he started off on Fox News. That he was ok with gays. He just didn't understand why we had to go dancing in the streets with our underwear on once a year. He held that opinion until we started asking for the right to marry our lovers and then his opinion changed quite drastically.
People who make that argument are either idiots or completely full of shit, and it's disturbing to me that you can't see through that.
And I love your argument regarding the gays who were assaulted. So it's okay if some people are different, but if they're too different, their assaults were understandable. Either way, I disagree entirely with you. They were assaulted because they were gay, not because they were flaming. When Eric Rudolph bombed a gay nightclub, do you think he distinguished between the jocks and artsy guys?
Once again, theree is no reason why we cannot retain key parts of our identity. Equal rights have no prerequisite. They are fundamental to the human condition.
QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREI'm sure the straight people to which you're referring are the kind of people who don't hate you to your face. They hate you behind your back.
A false assumption. We're talking about my long-time college friends and roommates here.
QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREAnd I love your argument regarding the gays who were assaulted. So it's okay if some people are different, but if they're too different, their assaults were understandable.
Ugh, if you read carefully, which you didn't, I made sure to clarify specifically that this is not what I was saying.
Forums are a bad medium for an argument. Unless you have a desire to actually understand the opposing side instead of reading stuff into it I'm not sure what else to post.
QUOTEAlmost all straight people who are supportive of gay rigths are not against any of those things
You're right though, flags, symbols, and what not, people will eventaully tolerate us, and the way western culture seems to be progressing in general it seems that our rights are inevitable. The question remains though, is this enough? Do we want to stand in opposition to general society, or with it? I personally prefer the latter.
And bigots might always exist, but if their number is marginalized then we're good. Like I said, many previously persecuted groups have achieved this, why should we be any different and fail at it?
In any case, like all other arguments, it isn't likely for us to convince eachother to change our minds right now and so it's not my goal, and I've pretty much said most of what I have to say on this topic. But even if you don't agree, I do hope that I've illustrated a more coherent point to the wish that some gays have to separate the community from these so called symbols than some others on this thread have been willing to give them credit for as evidenced by their extreme reactions to the symbol abolishing suggestions. By the way, if these reactions aren't telling of the US. vs. THEM mentality that these sorts of symbols and concepts inspire I don't know what is. "Oh no you don't like the flag, you MUST hate gays and want to forget those who fought for you! You must be one of THEM and not US!" Hmm where have I heard these types of arguments before? Patriotism, nationalism, religious-ism (yes, I make up words) and any other concept that supports the US vs THEM mentality is based on arguments just like these.
I'm a fan of reaching out and getting beyond the "us vs. them" mentality you refer to. I'm just not a fan of sacrificing key elements of the gay experience. I don't think you're not sufficiently pro-gay, I think you've bought into a variety of lies. Flying a flag or walking around in a CK thong on Christopher St. once a year is really not a big deal. Even the media - an institution that thrives off the creation of conflict - barely pays attention anymore.
QUOTEAlmost all straight people who are supportive of gay rigths are not against any of those things
Do you think most of those assaults were done in the name of religion or some other such reason, or do you think it's more reasonable that they were done because those gays were perceived on some level as simply being too different? I'd say the latter. Not that I'm excusing such actions based on something as trivial as "being too different" or suggesting that we should abolish our symbols in fear that we'll get beaten. No, the first move is theirs to make.
Note that I used the word "understandable" in my post. The implication you make is that it's okay for us to throw up a white flag (unless you want to be beaten), and if you didn't want ot make that implication, you should have left people who were assaulted out of this discussion.
Your post directly asserts that it's okay to be different - just as long as you're not too different. I'm starting to agree with GG every step of the way here.
I said the gay flag is flamboyant "look at me GAY." I believe it is so for a reason, because that is what it stands for. I never said I was wanting to be noticed and gain attention for being gay. I am calculating, masculine, and my straight act is Oscar worthy; I could hide into the scenery if I wanted. I choose not to because I am part of a community I love and there are people in it who cannot hide as easily as I can because they are feminine, flamboyant, and obviously gay. Like my being masculine, that is simply the way they are. I will not turn my back on them while they stand out at the mercy of whatever society deems appropriate to inflict upon them. The penalty of choice here seems to be indifference. I do not give up anything by standing with my community and choosing to be noticed as gay. The rest of you who don't like it, go ahead and strip yourself of all gay symbols, all gay ties: history, culture, everything. This communtiy is rich and wonderful. It doesn't need you. You'd be a weak link anyway.
Oh, but Guilty, hating the gay community's symbols and cultures does not make me anti-gay! Ok, Mary, keep telling yourself that.
No, that's not an implication you can make because it clearly says NOT to imply that. I put that there specifically because I realize how it might sound on an internet forum where on-the-fly clarifications are not possible like they are in real conversation. Like I said, it may be difficult to understand correct implications from forums. The implication is that you can see that the main dislike from straights to gays may originate from religion but this group of people isn't the super religious fanatic type. Religion is just an excuse some of them use to support their dislike, which, is actually based on a FALSE perception that we are TOO DIFFERENT from them, when in fact we really aren't. It's not that we need to CHANGE ourselves, but to actually show them the truth that we really aren't all that different. And they need to do that as well. Both our side and their side seem to want to exaggerate this difference and perpetuate the myth right now, and we are BOTH responsible for getting rid of these exaggerations.
No, that's not an implication you can make because it clearly says NOT to imply that. I put that there specifically because I realize how it might sound on an internet forum where on-the-fly clarifications are not possible like they are in real conversation. Like I said, it may be difficult to understand correct implications from forums. The implication is that you can see that the main dislike from straights to gays may originate from religion but this group of people isn't the super religious fanatic type. Religion is just an excuse some of them use to support their dislike, which, is actually based on a FALSE perception that we are TOO DIFFERENT from them, when in fact we really aren't. It's not that we need to CHANGE ourselves, but to actually show them the truth that we really aren't all that different. And they need to do that as well. Both our side and their side seem to want to exaggerate this difference and perpetuate the myth right now, and we are BOTH responsible for getting rid of these exaggerations.
This is what you need to infer from that quote.
The implication is valid. You are differentiating and assigning rights that should be universal based off distinct characteristics. We do not have to prove to anyone that we are different or too different or whatever. THERE ARE NO PREREQUISITES FOR EQUAL RIGHTS. Believing that someone must do something or be something to be treated the same as anyone else is the first step down a slippery slope that ends exactly with where your implication ended. That it's understandable to assault someone who is "too different"
Who are you to determine what is just different enough or too different? It's an arbitrary assignment of values that will soon be irrelevant as society continues to progress. The only thing that unites us as human beings is our differences from each other.
I doubt you will find anyone who agrees with you that religion is not THE driving force behind bigotry towards the GLBT community. Simply look at the differences of their political opinions in poll after poll. This is not to say there are not other reasons, but really. A flag and a pride celebration are hardly offensive to reasonable people.
and I think ideas like this will help our cause a lot more than symbols and exaggerated differences. I would alter it slightly by allowing straights as well into the group so that the group is more intergrated. The main point is we need to work more on mixing with the straight community than separating from it. This type of thing would expose homophobes to straights and gays interacting in a natural manner, and would go a long way (over time) in significantly reducing homophobia as more and more people were exposed to this type of thing.
QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HERE THERE ARE NO PREREQUISITES FOR EQUAL RIGHTS
You are CERTAINLY correct here. I think your misconception is that because you are limiting yourself to equal rights you're assuming I am as well, whereas for me equal rights are necessary but NOT anywhere near sufficient. So yes, we should have equal rights regardless of anything else. But we need more than just the right to get married. We need to be trully considered a part of general society, and not as outisders or pariahs who just have the ability to get married.
You can keep saying that I think it's understandable to assault someone who is 'too different' but it just isn't so. It doesn't matter what is typed there on the forum, nor does it matter how you interpret it. What matters is what I ACTUALLY think, and I don't think that statement you're saying is true, so why do you keep repeating it?
QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREI doubt you will find anyone who agrees with you that religion is not THE driving force behind bigotry towards the GLBT community.
Well, that's ok, people are wrong about a lot of things. Religion has always been an excuse. Religion says a lot of things, many of which these gay haters don't do. This shows that clearly they only choose to do religious things to which they are predisposed by some other mediating factors, and in our case that factor is the false perception that our differences from them are on some extreme alien level.
To add evidence to this, what we are experiencing is NOTHING DIFFERENT than what previous racial and religious groups have experienced, and basically ANY group that is different. The common trend here isn't religion, it's a marked percieved difference of one group to another. This is what mediates all of these types of discriminations and prejudices.
Can I suggest that this might be more appropriate?
O_O *is shocked* you DARE try and REPLACE the popcorn eating kitteh?
Do you not REALIZE what it STANDS for?
I suppose you ALSO want to get rid of Caslon's lolcats and replace them with, I don't know, dancing penguins. Take away GG's Jem videos while you're at it! TAKE THEM ALL!
I didn't read every discussion but I am just going to throw out there that the equal rights symbol is two yellow bands on a blue background.... whats wrong with that representing bi gay and transgendered people? The rainbow is as people have said tacky and feminine, can't we just have something neutral?
That's already been pointed out. The current case against it is the fact that it's not as well known. The Rainbow is known worldwide to mean gay(-friendly, -owned, etc). I've never seen the equal rights symbol here in Australia.
So, if we don't like the rainbow, let's get the "=" flag to be equally recognisable, and then we might get somewhere.
All the quoting within the quotes is boggling my mind.
:-)
I think we're finding the root of our basic disagreement now. You feel that the gay community should extend some courtesy to society to let them know that we are "just like them."
But I don't think we are like them. Our entire outlook on life, our values as a community, all those things are different from society as a whole. My problem is I don't want to throw those things away. I don't want to throw the symbols of those things away.
I'm all in favor of reaching out and being inclusive as opposed to being exclusive, and I've discussed that in previous posts, but I think it's wrong to expect the community to be anything other than what it is in this moment. If it evolves on its own in fifty years as a natural response, that's a different matter.
Your argument regarding religion is compelling. And you can certainly note times in our history (notably regarding the issue of slavery prior to the Civil War) where religion served only to justify respective positions rather than drive them. But I think it's to deny history to say that religion doesn't stir up trouble when it's in its own interest. Religion needs a compelling evil to assert itself against, and the GLBT community is their biggest scapegoat.
We cannot simplify all struggles of all minority communities down to a common factor. I can think of many cases in history where religion was a driving factor or serious genetic or racial differences. I can think of situations where it was neither.
QUOTEI think we're finding the root of our basic disagreement now. You feel that the gay community should extend some courtesy to society to let them know that we are "just like them."
Yes, this is where our basic disagreement comes about. But to clarify, I don't think we should go out of our way to show them that we're "just like them." Instead, we should stop trying to show them that "we're not just like them" when this, largely, isn't true. We should stop trying to deliberately exaggerate our differences. I understand the reason to need to stand out right now, which is why I said that this should be done as a graded manner: the more acceptance (not to be confused with equal rights) that the general society extends towards us, the less we should exaggerate our differences from them, and hopefully over decades it will lead to a more integrated society. It's not even about integrating "into them" but about both sides integrating together.
I realize like you say that you can't expect the community to up and change. This type of change happens over time, and I think it starts from people like those in this thread, who suggest that the community may need change, with a simple and small idea of changing our flag to something less 'loud'. This is just a small version of the much larger idea that society as a whole should better integrate. The change may or may not catch on over the next several decades. My point was simply that I think it should, not that it should be instant. In fact I said that it shouldn't be instant, and said that I think CURRENTLY we still need our flags and symbols, but hopefully we won't in the future. However, I do also think it's wrong to villainize people who do wish for such a 'rapid' integration. They are just idealists and want what they think is best for our community even if it's not realistically possible in the here and now, and I don't think they should be villainized as gay-haters for that as some other posters have done.
QUOTEBut I don't think we are like them. Our entire outlook on life, our values as a community, all those things are different from society as a whole.
See, it's quotes like these that make me glad when people can put aside rhetoric and can stop villainizing their opposition to allow for interesting ideas to flow through. In this quote you said that we really aren't the same at all, which I find to be a very interesting claim. Aren't we though? The only difference between a gay man and a straight man that I can see is sexual preference. It has nothing to do with values or outlook on life. Individuals within the gay community may have different values, but is there a 'gay' set of values that applies in general to gays and not to straights? Could you maybe point out differences in outlook on life and values that you see as difinitive of gays and straights? Because I honestly don't see this.
I do think that religion CAN drive people, and has in the past when faith was more real, but in our day and age I think there are less and less people who are driven by religion and faith. Religion and faith seem to be far more dilluted in our day and age. In the past people tried to follow religion more wholelly whereas now people seem to mostly have broken free from taking religion's teachings literally, and insteadcherrypick their issues and beliefs a lot more, and I think homosexuality hatred from religion is in most cases (but not all) such a cherrypicking used to support and excuse a more primitive and natural desire to extinguish that which is different. This is just an opinion, it could be like you say that religion is a main driving force against gays, but in my opinion and observations, this doesn't seem to be the case.
Rune said I do think that religion CAN drive people, and has in the past when faith was more real, but in our day and age I think there are less and less people who are driven by religion and faith. Religion and faith seem to be far more dilluted in our day and age. In the past people tried to follow religion more wholelly whereas now people seem to mostly have broken free from taking religion's teachings literally, and insteadcherrypick their issues and beliefs a lot more, and I think homosexuality hatred from religion is in most cases (but not all) such a cherrypicking used to support and excuse a more primitive and natural desire to extinguish that which is different. This is just an opinion, it could be like you say that religion is a main driving force against gays, but in my opinion and observations, this doesn't seem to be the case.
Just to weigh in on this part of things, I wonder how many religious people realise that wearing poly/cotton is/was a sin. Quite frankly, the current religious fundamentalists seem to eat up whatever their pastors/leadership are saying to them, and don't really go and check it themselves. Some people aren't really cherrypicking what they believe, but the people telling them what to believe are doing the cherrypicking for them. I agree that Western society is moving away from Religiosity, and while I think that this is a good thing in general, I think it sets up the current religious institutions to be more desperate and thus more aggressive.
I tend to think that religion probably is the driving force for gay discrimination at least here in Australia, and we seem to be taking our lead on a number of things from the US at the moment, so I'm guessing it's similar over there too.
Personally, I'm not paticularly drawn to the flag, but neither will I deride it as I respect what it symbolizes...what it conveys...and who it represents.
To state the flag needs replacing, or retiring, based simply on personal displeasure is a humanistic right, but what point does it serve without some substantive argument development? Or even a thoughtfully provoked alternative? Seems like just a bit of attention getting from my perspective, but that's a subjective view. ;)
We do live in different parts of the country and perhaps that is why we view straight people differently.
People everywhere do cherrypick religion but that is hardly a reason why religion is not a driving force behind their opposition to gays. Cherrypicking does not mean people are not serious about religion, it simply means that they are independent enough to sort through the issues of God and morality themselves. Christianity makes a compelling argument against homosexual intercourse, and someone who invests a great deal of time wrestling with the issue can still come up with the same position as the larger faith community. Outright hatred is a stone's throw away.
As I think more about it, I do know a handful of straight people who are not religious, but are somewhat bigotted. All these people were raised Christian though (and rather devoutly). This is Judeo-Christian society and even if people take steps away from their religion, I would argue that for deep psychological reasons, they do try to stay close to it.
In regards to our differences with the straight community, most of us go through a period of time (lets say maybe two years) where we intensely struggle with ourselves and our place in the world because of our sexuality. That struggle does produce different qualities in us - specific qualities that are neccessary to adapt and survive socially in this society.
This site is not even a full sample of the gay community, and look at the kinds of things people name:
- moral freedom and independece - having a unique perspective on live and the world - the ability to define your own life and write your own story without silly preconceptions of at what age you should graduate college or get married or buy a home with a white picket fence - a deeper regard for others (and before anyone questions this, there's a study done by the NYT that found that gays raised children that were more compassionate and more understanding of cultural differences) - deeper knowledge of self
One poster says, "Honestly, if I didnt endure all of the BS I have in my life due to my sexuality, I wouldn't be the same person, and Im proud of who I am."
Sure we go through a struggle, but who doesn't? Everyone has their own. Actually I'd say between both of my siblings I've had it much easier when it comes to psychological struggles we must endure. Being gay seems insignificant compared to what some people go through. As a personal example, what my straight sister went through in her younger years psychologically in terms of finding her place in the world and accepting herself for who she is was much tougher than what I went through psychologically due to my gayness, and her struggles lasted way longer than two years. In fact I think there's still a little bit going on, but thankfully she's managed to become much more adjusted in recent years.
Even further, on an even more personal level, I'd say I've faced much tougher struggles than my sexuality. I'm not going to pretend that comming to terms was the easiest of things (although for some it is, and they don't much struggle), but then, it wasn't my hardest struggle, not even by a longshot. There were (and still are) other things that make me question and feel unsure about my place in the world to a much greater extent than being gay did.
I think if we place our personal struggles above what our fellow neighbors go through is a bit short-sighted unless we can honestly step into their shoes. Just because someone isn't gay doesn't mean they don't go through equally difficult, or even much more difficult struggles, and I don't see this as a difference between the gay and straight community.
Hell some gays these days, like I said, don't go through any self-doubt struggle at all, and I think the number of gays who experince much struggle is bound to increase over time. Our struggle is getting easier and easier anyways, as more and more people accept us, so it should decrease in proportion to acceptance.
QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HERE - moral freedom and independece - having a unique perspective on live and the world - the ability to define your own life and write your own story without silly preconceptions of at what age you should graduate college or get married or buy a home with a white picket fence - a deeper regard for others (and before anyone questions this, there's a study done by the NYT that found that gays raised children that were more compassionate and more understanding of cultural differences) - deeper knowledge of self
I'm not sure that's exclusive to gays and I certainly would say that these are not defining factors of gays either. Maybe I'm biased because I am mostly exposed to straights socially (I generally tend to hang out with co-workers and class friends, and chances of a good nubmer of them being gay are slim.) But I do see these qualities in many people who are straight. I also see these lacking from many gays as well. By the way, I would love a home with a white picket fence, and I would like it to be part of my 'own story' quite a bit What's wrong of dreaming of a simple, quiet, comfortable life?
In fact I think it may be an insult to our straight allies to imply that they lack such qualities as a result of their straightness. It seems to me that you may have your own prejudices and stereotypes against the straight population seeing this list which you claim illustrates defining differences between the gay and straight population. As I said, I don't find an overabundance of these qualities in gays as a whole, and I don't find an underabundance in the straight population either.
Oh, by the way, I just recently moved to St. Louis but I used to live in CT (1 hour ish from NYC) through highschool and in Atlanta during 5 years of college so I'm not sure it's a location thing. Although I'm not sure my arguments would hold in some of the more rural parts of the south.
Ha! ha! ha! I see a lot of graphics, a lot of flaming and a lot of short post now. And, the opposition to the flag is still weak. Bottomline, the strongest determinant of any viewpoint is the strenght of its holder to back that viewpoint. Flag opposition, you are pitiful. "I don't like it, its tacky, lose it."
The flag stands for unity and diversity: meaning people with different views, appearance, and status in society can come together under a common goal or belief. This is certainly true in the gay community because just like "back in the day" guys were still living a closeted lifestyle: unhappy, uninspired, and unhealthy.
However, community saves them from that. Regular society isn't always friendly, not always diverse and unified. To this end, A PROMINENT gay community will always be needed because gay people are born everday and upon maturity need to be able to find it. The flag provides this prominence.
Really, arguing this point is moot. The flag is here to stay, neiner! neiner! neiner! the obnoxios, tacky, annoying flag is here to stay and so is its obnoxious, tacky, annoying opposers. However, the flag will always be prominent and will never disappear into the background. Opposition, you are dull. Now fade away.
The issue is not that we go through a struggle. It's that we go through the same struggle - a struggle which more or less requires us to reach a similar world view. I'm not speaking down to other developmental struggles in people's lives, but those can all lead to different outcomes.
I'm also not speaking down to straight people. You would certainly not criticize me if i were to say that people who survive cancer or recover from losing a child tend to have certain emotional characteristics. There's nothing wrong with having pride in each other and in our community, and believing that there is something magical about being gay.
What are these struggles where people don't stick together to make it through them? Are we talking about the events leading up to The Civil Rights Movement, are we talking about the Oklahoma City Bombing, Hurricane Katrina, 9/11, are we talking about the last two Bush terms? I hope not because all of these tragic events are most known for the human unity it took to make it through them!
I don't understand these people who are so quick to assert their independence during struggle. Chances are they've gone through very little alone. In most if not all of their personal struggles, they have probably had the support and mental aid of friends, family, role models, and/or co workers and some belief, religious/cultural. I'm pretty sure of this. And, what is so shameful about gay men coming together to comfort eachother and motivate eachother during struggle? It's the same thing a family does. It's the same thing a country does. Even some animals do it.
Even if it weren't normal. It works and we'll continue doing it. Don't like it. Don't come to the meetings.
Well yes, I agree, we're certainly united by our struggle because it's the same, but I don't think that gives us different values or outlooks on life than the straight population in general like you claimed because those same values can and do arrise from different struggles in many straights. That's all I was trying to say. So yes, the struggle is something that unites us to eachother (but as I said the struggle is on its way out anyway) but I don't think it separates us from the general population on any sort of relevant level in terms of values or outlook. Many straights just get there following a different path. And it's not like we all get to the same place anyway even if the struggle is similar. So I'm not sure how any of this can support a view that we are significantly different from the straight population, which is why these considerations were brought up.
I don't think it separates us from the general population on any sort of relevant level in terms of values or outlook. Many straights just get there following a different path. And it's not like we all get to the same place anyway even if the struggle is similar. So I'm not sure how any of this can support a view that we are significantly different from the straight population, which is why these considerations were brought up.
So that's it? There is no "gay culture" in your mind? All the discussion of the music, and movies, and entertainment, it's just some fiction created to sell copies of the Advocate and give Bill O a job?
There are differences on the whole. I'm not saying that straight people do not have the qualities that I brought up, but merely that we bring them together in a unique way.
And I'm just curious. If I discussed the bad things our culture brings to the table, would you have criticized my statement?
If you brought up bad values yes I would. Of course there's a gay culture, but there's many types of cultures around. Having, on average, different music tastes isn't a significant difference. So it's not that we don't have a culture, clearly we do, but it's not something that separates us from straights, because it's not as if straights all have one culture. It seems like many different cultures have managed to integrate quite well so like I said before, I don't see why ours should fail. They maintain their culture on the level of other subcultures, and not as an alternative to the entire "rest of the population." Our culture needs to become sort of a sub-group to the general population, and not try and stand independant of it. It needs to be thought of on the level of other sub-group cultures, not try to be on the level of "gays" and then "everyone else."
It's influence is spreading even more!!! It's attacked major corporations!!! Although I think it happened a long time ago with Apple...but now its brought down the ipod!!!!!
If you don't like the flag then simply do not have one, if you love the flag and what it stands for then wave it proudly. I never understood why anyone uses the word "we" to describe a vast amount of people, saying we do not need a flag is simply YOUR opinion therefore you should say "I don't need a flag". Thus the reason for you not having one.
If you don't like the flag then simply do not have one, if you love the flag and what it stands for then wave it proudly. I never understood why anyone uses the word "we" to describe a vast amount of people, saying we do not need a flag is simply YOUR opinion therefore you should say "I don't need a flag". Thus the reason for you not having one.
Where were you at Sep 07, 2008 7:42 PM? This could have been a mere two-post thread.
Guilty, Ash, myself, and ten angry ninja lesbians are going to form a queer brigade. We'll be taking names and putting all you flag-haters on a list.
At first, I thought about having us wearing rainbow colored BDUs, Guilty. But then, I realized it's probably not very stealthy, and difficult to come by.
If you don't like the flag then simply do not have one, if you love the flag and what it stands for then wave it proudly. I never understood why anyone uses the word "we" to describe a vast amount of people, saying we do not need a flag is simply YOUR opinion therefore you should say "I don't need a flag". Thus the reason for you not having one.
Where were you at Sep 07, 2008 7:42 PM? This could have been a mere two-post thread.
Haha Rugger my man I just been busy, however you know I like to simplify things haha.
If you don't like the flag then simply do not have one, if you love the flag and what it stands for then wave it proudly. I never understood why anyone uses the word "we" to describe a vast amount of people, saying we do not need a flag is simply YOUR opinion therefore you should say "I don't need a flag". Thus the reason for you not having one.
Where were you at Sep 07, 2008 7:42 PM? This could have been a mere two-post thread.
Haha Rugger my man I just been busy, however you know I like to simplify things haha.
The problem was that the original poster didnt want anybody to have flags. ...not just him individually. He was complaining about the flag/rainbow being all over the place on businesses, etc. He wanted it banished from society: gay, gay-friendly and straight...Sorry, Chizzad's response totally missed the original point of the thread....and the thread wouldn't have ended at 2 posts.
I've never really cared for the rainbow flag either. This may sound wrong, but keep in mind that I grew up in a small redneck town. My mom is gay, her and her girlfriend at the time would put stickers all over the car. My sister would drive us to school in the car sometimes. Of course, people knew what the rainbow stickers meant, so we'd get teased for it, a lot. We finally decided that when we leave for school in the mornings, we would get out tape, and tape over the stickers. Yea.. so we did that until we got our own cars. I do have to say one thing, though. Because of the stickers, I met one of my best friends. I remember her coming to school one day and passing me a note. "Is your mom what I think she is? Because if so, it's cool, mine is too." Haha, so there was some good that came of the stickers.
I for will not put any kind of stickers on my car that are "gay". I don't want EVERYONE to know. There are some cruel, ignorant people out there.
Holy Effin cow! I leave for two days and this shit blows up. Alright, if im gonna put on my 'objective hat' heres what i would say Ive learned from this post (sorry i couldnt read everything)...
1. I am an insensitive, incendiary asshole (I knew that already)
2. Some people have alot staked in the Rainbow Flag. Identity, visibility, and a sign of what has been accomplished. And quite honestly, I'll respect that and dont hold anything against anyone who was offended by my "Showtunes and Drag Queens Gay" comment. Possibly out of line
And for the record, I Hate Showtunes. Not just a little, but A LOT. Its the worst music ever. Drag queens, on the other hand are my girls. I'll murder someone for my girls, but that doesn't make me like that flag. I cant stand it....still...
3. There is a 'visibility aspect' to the flag that MAY play a functional role in some areas in America where its still necessary. Maybe....just MAYBE...I overlooked that in my original post (the lone concession I'm giving in this).
4. I still think its tacky. Sorry. Its just ridiculously overused to the point where its obnoxiouis and I DONT LIKE IT!!!! Shoot me!! SHOOT ME IN THE FACE!!! I DONT LIKE THE MOTHERFUCKING RAINBOW FLAG!!!! To me, Im not going to put gay rights accomplishments, self-worth, or a feeling of identity or community into an effing flag. I Still think its tacky. But if anyone else wants to.....Who am I to say they can't? just dont expect me to do the same. If you are proud of it, then wave it. For me however, I dont like it, but dont take that as an indication that I am any less Gay, less proud, less aware of what others have done to pave the way for me, or less willing to fight for our rights- because I dont like the rainbow flag.
5. I have a better understanding of the reasons that people like it. It means more to them than it EVER will to me. EVER!!! To me it IS and always will be a sign of separation. And its fucking ugly
6. I respect those who disagree with me, but it seems that some people find these comments to be hateful and disrespectful. Too fucking bad. Sorry, but they aren't, you just aren't capable of seeing them any other way. Some people agree with me, maybe a minority, but some.
Wow - gone for one week and I miss the entire Great Rainbow Flag War of September 2008?! DAMN!
Just 2 points:
1) Yes, even here in the original homo-marrying state of Massachusetts, the flag is still a potent symbol. Here in one of the whitest most Irish Catholic neighborhoods of Boston, whenever we see the flag in front of some house, we squeal a little and say "Oh look - a consulate!" Considering the lack of equal rights you have in Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Michigan, Maryland, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Texas, Utah....well, you get the idea....
2) I have bad news for some of you guys (Rune, Rowerboy, et al). As much as we all hope for and work for that day when we are not actively discriminated against, we are always going to be different. Every little gay boy is going to wake up one day and realize, no matter how masculine he is and no matter how big his balls are (Rowerboy), he's different. And that difference, except in rare cases, is not going to be assuaged by going home to parents, a family, a community that is LIKE HIM.
And to be honest, I'm happy for that. It is sameness, generic similarity, etc. that really scares me more than anything. So I for one hope to never see neither the rainbow flag disappear nor pride parades to fade away.
3) And that said, if we are to follow the line of argument that some have advanced here, well we should also be encouraging Irish Americans to abandon that tacky shamrock and those obnoxious St. Patrick's Day parades. After all, are most of those people really all that connected to Ireland anymore? And I mean, the drunkenness, the bagpipes, and green beer? Can't they just assimilate, integrate, and be done with it? And the 4th of July? I mean, jeez, we won the war. Let it go, people. And if I have to see one more "I'm a proud parent of an honor student at XYZ Elementary" bumper sticker - cripes, like the whole world needs to know your kid's got a brain and goes to some stupid local school?
So yeah, maybe we should celebrate our difference and our pride even if we've won the rights....
I suppose you could say that the rainbow flag is really...umm...gay, when you don't have to look over your shoulder on a regular basis. Come to Utah for a little jaunt. I can be fired legally, with no recourse, for being gay. Hate crimes against me are legal. I am treated as if I were 2/3 a person. Try considering that not every man has his lot in life as simple and easy as yours is before you say something that makes you appear completely...uneducated. Read the book Homophobia: A History by Byrne Fone before you publish such idiotic statements.
Steve_o saidI suppose you could say that the rainbow flag is really...umm...gay, when you don't have to look over your shoulder on a regular basis. Come to Utah for a little jaunt. I can be fired legally, with no recourse, for being gay. Hate crimes against me are legal. I am treated as if I were 2/3 a person. Try considering that not every man has his lot in life as simple and easy as yours is before you say something that makes you appear completely...uneducated. Read the book Homophobia: A History by Byrne Fone before you publish such idiotic statements.
change the UT law or move. unless you're bound by chains. and why would we want to come to UT for a little jaunt, after the picture you've painted?
redheaded_dude said change the UT law or move. unless you're bound by chains. and why would we want to come to UT for a little jaunt, after the picture you've painted?
So much for a united America where all americans are equal under the law... readheaded_dude, A word of advice, there are gays everywhere, and they can't all move away.
And I think that was the point. While this sort of stuff can go on, there is a need for these symbols. What a selfish statement you just made.
Personally, as far as the rainbow flag is concerned, I don't "get it." I understand that as the grandfathered symbol of gay community it has grown to represent many types of gay, gay struggles, etc. There's no getting over the history behind it.
However, I can't get over the feeling that it's inception came into play under cheesy, stereotypical conditions. I'm too lazy to Wikipedia the origins, or worse pretend like I know firsthand where it came from, but in a lot of ways I can relate to the unrest that chitown_mofo has for it. My sense is that it developed from the embracing of certain stereotypical gay trait and behavior as a part of the Pride movements. In a way it could be a frustrating as the African-American flag being a drumstick of fried chicken or something.
The gay flag could be a giant penis or even a turd and still have evolved to represent all the warm and fuzzies GuiltyGear mentioned but that doesn't mean it isn't tacky.
You can put lipstick on a pig and that Rainbow flag is still fugly as all get out. I see one flying and all I can think is the dude will be stuck in the 70's with a big porn mustache, daisy dukes, sleeveless flannel shirt and workboots with tube socks. Ugly then and ugly today. Aren't gay men supposed to have a sense of style? Did we not learn anything from the Queer Eye Guys? WWTGD (What Would Tim Gunn Do?)
A flag is merely a symbol. Don't get so tied into the same histrionic, knee-jerk, nationalism that holds back this country in respect to the American flag and all of the smokescreen that people use to prove how patriotic they are. Live an honest and healthy life and nobody can take away what is inherently yours... your dignity and self-respect. Symbols are often times used when there isn't much real substance.
"A rainbow flag is a multi-colored flag consisting of stripes in the colors of the rainbow. Not all, however, use the actual basic colors red, orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue and violet, nor the traditional rainbow colors of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet or purple.
The use of rainbow flags has a long tradition; they are displayed in many cultures around the world as a sign of diversity and inclusiveness, of hope and of yearning.
There are several unrelated rainbow flags in use today, with the flag of the Rainbow family being an obvious example. The most widely known is perhaps the pride flag representing gay pride. The peace flag is especially popular in Italy and the cooperative flag symbolizes international cooperation. It is also used by Andean people to represent the legacy of the Inca empire (Wiphala) and Andean movements."
stevarino7 saidI actually do not mind the rainbow flag at all and understand the value and purpose of it. I think it is good to have something that points out an accepting area, a safe space. You automatically know you will be welcomed when you go into a place that has one and that is important.
But to play devils advocate, what if heterosexual people had a flag to point out that there was a heterosexual community, a safe space for straights? Would that offend anyone, or be welcomed? Or is there already a symbol that really represents that out there?
Some straight people thought of this already. Google str8 pride and they have a flag that is black and white striped. And really...the world is a relatively safe place for straight people.
Sometimes being a bit more mainstream / subtle can be more advantageous and sometimes not. That being said, I think that acceptance often comes when folks are able to see likenesses rather than differences. E.g., the military, organized sports, the workplace, and so on. Many folks don't warm up quickly to blatant loudness, even when it's correct. E.g. if you blast your fucking hip hop / urban rock at 0200 it's not going to do jack shit to advance your cause. It's gonna piss me off.
Clearly, there's some heritage behind the rainbow, and it has served a purpose, but, perhaps it's time to deliver the message in a slightly different tone that is less loud, and differentiating.
When Joe Plumber finds out the guy next to him is very much like him in nearly every way except the bedroom, it's a lot easier to gain acceptance than being on the extremes. I fully understand this. E.g., If I play ice hockey with you and I find out you happen to bust nuts with other guys, no big deal. I was there to play ice hockey and not hook up, and you break a stereotype type that all gays are fairies. Doh.
In my experience, I often hear "you're the coolest gay guy I know." How is that? Because I understand that folks don't like to be taken out of their comfort zone abruptly.
Saying gays don't need a community anymore is on par with saying that African Americans don't need the NAACP. Your sense of pride, if you have any, is warped.
TigerTim saidWhat about the Lesbians, Bisexuals, Transgender people and Allies?
The rainbow is a potent symbol because all the colours are represented equally. There is also a subtle connotation about equality of colour, and the synergy of diversity.
That said, I do like the Equals sign of the HRC.
I'm definitely more on the adoption of the Equal Rights symbol than the Rainbow Flag primarily because of its relevance not only to the LGBTQ community but to many different "minority" components.
...and it's less "gay" as in show-tunes and terrible '70's-80's disco.
A rainbow happens when a storm has passed. The rainbow symbolizes hope that there will come a time when the storm has passed. The storm has not passed yet.
And yes there are other flags just not as inclusive as the rainbow flag.
Ducky45, do not make an assumption all youth are like so. There are people in every age group who thinks negatively of the flag.
But its our flag, its what we have.
It's our history and what we have pride in.
We want to be accepted / tolerated in our society
We will keep it and not even replace it with something stupid like the original poster's idea of two guys humping, which is offensive and would push us away.
If you don't like it, oh well, its not going away.
evant3e saidChitown, I gotta support you. I think the flag is offensive and divisive.
Divisive? How so? The Rainbow flag is a physical depiction of non-exclusion to bring everyone together. I don't see how it represents separating people? Ya know the flag is carried by straight people too and put in many businesses that are gay-friendly.
Offensive? Why? Because you have this distorted view point that it is effeminate and thus inferior? Please step down from your almighty "masc, straight-acting hate fem-bots" throne and realize that you are propagating sexism.
There are a lot of gay guys living in my part of the world who do not have the hard earned rights and privileges of gays in the west. Symbols are important. There are no rainbow flags flying here, but the rainbow symbol and colours are used - they convey meaning in a part of the world where gay life is almost totally underground.
Dont throw away the symbols of past victories! The battle is not yet universally won.
The rainbow flag is hideous. I'm shocked to see how many people defend it's aesthetic.... especially on a cool site like this. It is beyond tacky. I hate when I see it worn by tacky straight tourists just as much as when it is waived by our community. Is Mofo the only one with any taste on this site? The HRC "equal" symbol is much cooler. I would much rather have that be our flag. Mofo was referring to it's aesthetic only and so am I. How can we be taken seriously with this puerile, tasteless eyesore as the symbol of our community? Ever wonder why there aren't any cool cars or high end homes that display them. You are more likely to see them flying from some tawdry apartment building or on some cheesy Suzuki Samurai. It all goes back to level of taste. I respect the guy who says "it's the only flag we have" much more than the people who derive sheer joy just by looking at the ugly thing. The flag needs a serious update. OR
Hmm, I agree. The Rainbow flag doesn't do much for me either. If it's about displaying the equality of all the colors or something, wouldn't the HRC "=" sign serve that purpose while at the same time being a tasteful symbol?
... is a sure sign that you shouldn't be hitting that "submit" button. ...The blood must be rushing to your head. ... 
... 
never pretended to know what people are thinking, but this is a limited medium. Since this is a discussion forum, I have to try and figure out what you mean by what you write. On the matter of the OP and the likes of him, if I accused them of being anti gay or hateful, it was simply by a preponderance of the evidence that they provided themselves with their post, which do reflect their thoughts. Don't you agree, seeing as you did judge me by my post.
tomorrow.
