Where do your sympathies lie in the latest Israel / Gaza conflict?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 19, 2012 10:55 PM GMT
    PLEASE TRY TO ARGUE WITH FACTS AND LOGIC NOT PASSION!!!

    We're all gay here, we're all HUMAN BEINGS here, let's try to reason and engage in DIALOGUE.
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    Nov 19, 2012 10:59 PM GMT
    One of the reasons that I'm starting this thread is that I personally have VERY mixed emotions. On the one hand, I can't imagine any other nation allowing itself to be subjected to countless rocket barrages by a state that's committed to it's destruction. On the other hand, 30 Palestinians are killed for each Israeli.

    Frankly, I don't see a good outcome for anyone, but please feel free to show me where I've been too pessimistic.
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    Nov 19, 2012 11:16 PM GMT
    War is an ugly thing anywhere in the world, not just in the Middle East. To hear news of children being killed or injured, the innocent party locked in a conflict between two Governments is always heartbreaking news.

    However, having said that, the truth is that the Hamas in Gaza has been firing missiles into Israeli territory for quite some time. No wonder that sooner or later Israel had to retaliate.

    However, much of the Media, particularly the BBC, side fully with the Palestinians and lay the blame fully on Israel for the destruction of Gaza citizens, especially that of children. We are fed the lie that Israel is the cruel bully, attacking an innocent nation. The truth is, Israel had been provoked into attack by the Palestinians, something the BBC are reluctant to admit.
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    Nov 19, 2012 11:26 PM GMT
    An apocryphal story states that as the annual US Army & Navy football game was approaching, a sports reporter asked an Air Force General which team he wanted to win. His answer:

    "I hope they both lose."

    I feel somewhat the same way here. Both sides have been aggressors, both sides have legitimate grievances, both sides refuse to compromise. They live by the sword, let them perish by the sword, and leave the rest of the world out of it.
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    Nov 19, 2012 11:38 PM GMT
    yourname2000 said

    I hate what Israel is doing to the Palestinians....they're as bad as the Nazis... imo.


    Since the NAZIs killed more than 70% of the Jewish population in Europe, this seems rather overstated.
  • roadbikeRob

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    Nov 19, 2012 11:47 PM GMT
    My sympathy is with the Palestinian people of Gaza.
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    Nov 19, 2012 11:49 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidMy sympathy is with the Palestinian people of Gaza.


    Could you please expand on WHY?
  • roadbikeRob

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    Nov 19, 2012 11:57 PM GMT
    swimguychicago said
    roadbikeRob saidMy sympathy is with the Palestinian people of Gaza.


    Could you please expand on WHY?
    I would much rather leave that alone. If I express anymore viewpoints on this issue, the pro-Israel lobby on here will come after me like a pack of fierce wolves. According to them, I am not entitled to viewpoints on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2012 12:01 AM GMT
    I agree with the OP that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict presents a difficult situation for the progressive thinker. It's awful that the Israeli people live in constant fear of rocket fire; it's appalling that a minority of the Palestinians continue to fire rockets into Israel; it's worrying that the Israeli response is always so disproportionate; it's terrible that there's been so little progress in resolving the conflict—with plenty of blame to go around on both sides.

    I don't see what there is to do for the progressive other than to deplore the appalling behavior on both sides and to hope that from somewhere political leaders on both sides who are capable of making peace will emerge.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Nov 20, 2012 12:50 AM GMT
    I think we need a King Solomon rule of sorts. Kick everyone out of Jerusalem and wall it off to everyone until they come to a true peace.
  • morleyq

    Posts: 175

    Nov 20, 2012 1:20 AM GMT
    coolarmydude saidI think we need a King Solomon rule of sorts. Kick everyone out of Jerusalem and wall it off to everyone until they come to a true peace.

    One could say that the two-state solution is a King Solomon solution.
    The Clinton Administration vigorously pursued this.
    Hamas opposed it, seeking to derail it with violence.
    In the end, Arafat rejected it and resumed terrorism.

    Then came 9/11 and we've been focused on Iraq and Afghanistan.
    With those coming to a close, President Obama can now put more energy here.

    Unless someone actually cares about Syria.
    We get hourly updates on the double-digit death toll in Gaza, while no one seems to care about the 37,000 dead in Syria.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2012 1:26 AM GMT
    I'm with Palestine. I am not at all surprised that they are firing rockets into Israel after 60+ years of frustration. They should have a recognized country of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem....with a highway of safe passage between Gaza and the West Bank, just like the highway between West Germany and West Berlin. The Israeli settlements should be dismantled and the settlers moved back to Israel.
  • morleyq

    Posts: 175

    Nov 20, 2012 1:56 AM GMT
    yourname2000 said
    swimguychicago said
    yourname2000 said
    I hate what Israel is doing to the Palestinians....they're as bad as the Nazis... imo.

    Since the NAZIs killed more than 70% of the Jewish population in Europe, this seems rather overstated.

    I'd rather die than live in a concentration camp for 3 generations....they're entirely equal to me. If there's evil on Earth today, that's where you'll find it.

    What concentration camps are you talking about?

    Godwin might be shocked by how quickly his law turns out to be true these days.
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    Nov 20, 2012 3:31 AM GMT
    I haven't been glued to the coverage of this latest conflict but one thing that stayed with me was CNN's Wolf Blitzer asking Anderson Cooper (and I'm paraphrasing here) whether he'd had an opportunity to speak with the typical Palestinian in the street to see whether the latest round of mutual violence prompted any dialogue among locals about routing out Hamas, compromise, giving thought to Israel's position and considering a peaceful alternative to rocket fire into Israel and Anderson, more politic than usual, avoided giving a direct "yes" or "no" answer by saying instead that the Palestinians were pretty mad at the Israelis right now. Meanwhile, there's considerable acknowledgement and media coverage galore of shelled Israelis protesting military action and calling for more Israeli compromise. Given that difference in outlook between the two factions, it's very hard for me to sympathize more with the one that inspired a journalist as respected as Anderson Cooper to so blatantly dodge such a reasonable, simple and direct question, from a network cohort yet.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Nov 20, 2012 6:48 AM GMT
    swimguychicago saidPLEASE TRY TO ARGUE WITH FACTS AND LOGIC NOT PASSION!!!

    We're all gay here, we're all HUMAN BEINGS here, let's try to reason and engage in DIALOGUE.



    Since each generation of Palestinians teaches the following generation that their only purpose in life is the destruction of the state of Israel, there will never be peace.

    And, of course, the Hamas terrorist organization, just fuels the flames.

    Israel tried allowing Palestinians to come and go across the border, but the Palestinians sent their children walking into Israel, as suicide bombers. So, the Palestinians had to be isolated.

    Then, the Palestinians started kidnapping Israeli soldiers, and firing rockets across the border, into Israel.

    A few years ago, Israel invaded the Gaza strip, and did considerable damage, in retaliation for a marked increase in rocket attacks by the Palestinians. I would have thought that that amount of destruction would have made the Palestinians choose peace. But, it only brought a significant reduction in the number of rockets launched into Israel.

    And, then, recently, Hamas and the Palestinians greatly stepped up their attacks on Israel, using rockets that could travel farther into the center of Israel.

    So, now, Israel is forced to fight back.

    It appears that there will be no peace for Israel until the last Palestinian is dead. But, in the background, there's the threat of Iran.
  • metta

    Posts: 39078

    Nov 20, 2012 7:06 AM GMT
    Where is US public opinion on Israel, Palestine and the Gaza conflict?

    Americans line up solidly behind President Obama in their support for Israel, but a clear majority wants a two-state solution

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/19/us-public-opinion-israel-palestine-gaza
  • metta

    Posts: 39078

    Nov 20, 2012 7:06 AM GMT
    481856_10151545365219392_1160960198_n.jp


    Response to the map:
    The maps of disappearing Palestine
    http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-maps-of-disappearing-palestine.html

    Thank you morleyq
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2012 7:31 AM GMT
    I'm tired of paying taxes to support Israel, a terrorist state. Let Canada pay the taxes.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19119

    Nov 20, 2012 3:56 PM GMT
    It just seems counter-productive for rockets to be fired at Israel from Palestine since history would tell us that Israel's response to such actions are usually swift and disproportionate. It's sort of a "cutting off your nose despite your face" mentality that isn't working, has never worked, and will never work for the Palestinians. It's just pathetic to watch this ongoing conflict with seemingly no end in sight, mostly because BOTH sides are stubborn and won't come to the bargaining table and make a concerted effort towards a lasting peace.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14296

    Nov 20, 2012 8:34 PM GMT
    Caslon22000 saidI'm tired of paying taxes to support Israel, a terrorist state. Let Canada pay the taxes.
    Why should Canada support Israel? That doesn't make any sense since Canada is more like other countries when it comes to dealing with Israel. It is only the US that is a blind supporter of Israel regardless of what atrocities Israel commits in the name of "defending itself". Enough said.
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    Nov 20, 2012 8:38 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    Caslon22000 saidI'm tired of paying taxes to support Israel, a terrorist state. Let Canada pay the taxes.
    Why should Canada support Israel? That doesn't make any sense since Canada is more like other countries when it comes to dealing with Israel. It is only the US that is a blind supporter of Israel regardless of what atrocities Israel commits in the name of "defending itself". Enough said.

    Well, if Canada's like everybody else, then why not Canada? Mske an example of them!
  • morleyq

    Posts: 175

    Nov 20, 2012 8:42 PM GMT
    metta8 said
    Response to the map:
    The maps of disappearing Palestine
    http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-maps-of-disappearing-palestine.html

    Right, that original map you posted suffers from errors in each map and then strings those together to make a larger point that is false.

    The first map sloppily assumes that any private land that wasn't owned by Jews was "Palestinian Land". It wasn't. Resident Arabs owned less land than Jews did. The majority of the land was either not privately owned or was owned by foreigners.

    The second map shows the proposed UN partition, but that plan allowed both Jews and Arabs to keep their private property. Unlike the first map (allegedly showing private ownership), this map depicts sovereignty.

    I don't remember what the issues were with the 3rd and 4th map, but the bigger problem is that the series is missing maps that would go in between those. Thus it appears that there was constant land loss -- disappearance -- since 1948 when in fact this isn't the case and one could say that the opposite is true in recent decades:

    withdrawl-map.jpg
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14296

    Nov 20, 2012 8:43 PM GMT
    Caslon22000 said
    roadbikeRob said
    Caslon22000 saidI'm tired of paying taxes to support Israel, a terrorist state. Let Canada pay the taxes.
    Why should Canada support Israel? That doesn't make any sense since Canada is more like other countries when it comes to dealing with Israel. It is only the US that is a blind supporter of Israel regardless of what atrocities Israel commits in the name of "defending itself". Enough said.

    Well, if Canada's like everybody else, then why not Canada? Mske NZ example of them!
    You are not making any sense. Now you are mentioning New Zealand as another candidate to pay the taxes. You are not making any sense. Would you love to add the United Kingdom, Australia, France and Japan to the listicon_question.gif You might as well while you are at it.
  • morleyq

    Posts: 175

    Nov 20, 2012 8:48 PM GMT
    People are dying and you guys are only concerned about your wallet?
    How little of your taxes go to foreign aid?

    How are you different from pro-life and anti-gay groups who want line-item vetoes on the budget?
    You know, they're sick and tired of paying for Big Bird, abortions and HIV prevention measures?
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14296

    Nov 20, 2012 8:54 PM GMT
    morleyq saidPeople are dying and you guys are only concerned about your wallet?
    How little of your taxes go to foreign aid?

    How are you different from pro-life and anti-gay groups who want line-item vetoes on the budget?
    You know, they're sick and tired of paying for Big Bird, abortions and HIV prevention measures?
    American taxpayers put too much money to foreign aid. We have serious problems here in the US that need to be addressed but our federal government just wants to solve problems in other countries and continue its costly nation building at the expense of solving pressing problems at home. It is time to set priorities. The US needs to start worrying about domestic problems and quit getting involved in all these foreign broils.