"Britain’s millionaire exodus is a wake-up call to Barack Obama’s high tax America"

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    Nov 29, 2012 9:00 PM GMT
    A lot more at the link.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100191962/britains-millionaire-exodus-is-a-wake-up-call-to-barack-obamas-high-tax-america/

    In the 2009-10 tax year, more than 16,000 people declared an annual income of more than £1 million to HM Revenue and Customs. This number fell to just 6,000 after Gordon Brown introduced the new 50p top rate of income tax shortly before the last general election.

    Since George Osborne announced a reduction of the top rate to 45 percent in his April budget “the number of people declaring annual incomes of more than £1 million has risen to 10,000.” This is a figure still significantly below earlier levels, and it will be a huge challenge for Britain to recover its lost wealth. As Conservative MP Harriet Baldwin puts it, “Labour’s ideological tax hike led to a tax cull of millionaires,” costing the UK around £7 billion in lost tax revenue.

    There are important lessons here for the White House, and the figures coming from the UK should be a wake-up call for President Obama, who has pledged to force "the wealthiest Americans to pay a little more in taxes.” Specifically, Obama wants to raise the top rate tax in the United States for those earning $250,000 a year or above by nearly five percentage points, from 35 percent to 39.6 percent (which may rise as high as 43.4 percent according to Jennifer Rubin at The Washington Post). Compare this to the current top marginal individual income tax rate in Singapore of 20 percent, and Hong Kong at 15 percent.
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    Nov 29, 2012 9:34 PM GMT
    Data suggests otherwise, at least in the US. (Didn't Britain have a recession for the period in question?)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/11/28/do-millionaires-move-to-avoid-high-taxes/These three studies are in line with the previous literature on millionaire flight, which has found either no effects or very small ones. And if there are no effects within the United States, it’s extremely doubtful there would be any between countries.

    What’s more, it’s not clear that any effects the British law had would be relevant for the U.S. tax discussion. Even if the top income tax rate went back up to 39.6 percent, that would still be lower than that of most European countries, which would leave potential tax exiles fewer places to flee. Countries with unusually high rates, by contrast, have more to worry about.
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    Nov 29, 2012 9:44 PM GMT
    It's gotten to the point where I can tell a Riddler topic just by the title, lol.

    Pehaps these millionaires will protest-move to France in the same way the angry Republicans were going to move to Canada.
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    Nov 29, 2012 9:55 PM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidData suggests otherwise, at least in the US. (Didn't Britain have a recession for the period in question?)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/11/28/do-millionaires-move-to-avoid-high-taxes/These three studies are in line with the previous literature on millionaire flight, which has found either no effects or very small ones. And if there are no effects within the United States, it’s extremely doubtful there would be any between countries.

    What’s more, it’s not clear that any effects the British law had would be relevant for the U.S. tax discussion. Even if the top income tax rate went back up to 39.6 percent, that would still be lower than that of most European countries, which would leave potential tax exiles fewer places to flee. Countries with unusually high rates, by contrast, have more to worry about.


    Exodus is probably a poorly chosen word - but describes how in the UK there was a dramatic reduction in the anticipated taxes that would be collected from millionaires - to the point that they decided rethink the retrograde policy.

    So to answer your conclusion, it's wrong. There is more than sufficient data to suggest that at least in the UK this policy failed. Will it however fail in the US?

    Here's where the data you cite fails to make the argument. While yes you can conclude that millionaires tend not to physically leave, the question is how do they earn their income and does their income fall? Also the studies you point to cleverly point to millionaires as those who physically own more than $1M in assets. It does not speak to those who earn more than a million of which there is overlap but is not the same. So to your point, no. The evidence seems to be that tax rates do reflect a reduction in earnings from the wealthy. And that the increase in taxes will bring in substantially less than what is projected - as it always seems to do. Looked at differently - they may not move, but they certainly make less money after - is that a victory for you?

    Also - note here - from Varner and Young themselves who allow that in NJ that there *was* migration from NJ after implementation of new taxes on the wealthy amongst those who were retirees and are more mobile:
    http://www.stanford.edu/~cy10/public/Millionaire_Migration.pdf
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    Nov 29, 2012 9:58 PM GMT
    More helpful facts:
    Millionaires Go Missing: Maryland's fleeced taxpayers fight back.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html

    Maryland couldn't balance its budget last year, so the state tried to close the shortfall by fleecing the wealthy. Politicians in Annapolis created a millionaire tax bracket, raising the top marginal income-tax rate to 6.25%. And because cities such as Baltimore and Bethesda also impose income taxes, the state-local tax rate can go as high as 9.45%. Governor Martin O'Malley, a dedicated class warrior, declared that these richest 0.3% of filers were "willing and able to pay their fair share." The Baltimore Sun predicted the rich would "grin and bear it."

    One year later, nobody's grinning. One-third of the millionaires have disappeared from Maryland tax rolls. In 2008 roughly 3,000 million-dollar income tax returns were filed by the end of April. This year there were 2,000, which the state comptroller's office concedes is a "substantial decline." On those missing returns, the government collects 6.25% of nothing. Instead of the state coffers gaining the extra $106 million the politicians predicted, millionaires paid $100 million less in taxes than they did last year -- even at higher rates.

    No doubt the majority of that loss in millionaire filings results from the recession. However, this is one reason that depending on the rich to finance government is so ill-advised: Progressive tax rates create mountains of cash during good times that vanish during recessions. For evidence, consult California, New York and New Jersey (see here).
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:14 PM GMT
    What you fail to understand, Riddler, is for someone like me...I don't give a fuck if all the millionaires got together in a third world country to declare how they hate these "failed policys". I'd rather have to climb out of the ashes of this mess through the hard work and strategic planning of middle-class workers than to continuously have those greedy life-suckers holding this country down.

    Let all the millionaires leave, and when they are no longer allowed to leech off our government and people through loopholes and poor regulations, then the middle class will bounce back and we will overcome the current devastation that his been left in the wake of this brazilification.
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:19 PM GMT
    I could have mass murdered 10K millionaires in the UK and you still would have blamed the reduction on higher tax cuts.
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:26 PM GMT
    ConfederateGhost said...
    Let all the millionaires leave, and when they are no longer allowed to leech off our government and people through loopholes and poor regulations, then the middle class will bounce back and we will overcome the current devastation that his been left in the wake of this brazilification.
    *golf clap*
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:31 PM GMT
    ConfederateGhost saidWhat you fail to understand, Riddler, is for someone like me...I don't give a fuck if all the millionaires got together in a third world country to declare how they hate these "failed policys". I'd rather have to climb out of the ashes of this mess through the hard work and strategic planning of middle-class workers than to continuously have those greedy life-suckers holding this country down.

    Let all the millionaires leave, and when they are no longer allowed to leech off our government and people through loopholes and poor regulations, then the middle class will bounce back and we will overcome the current devastation that his been left in the wake of this brazilification.


    And what you fail to understand ConfederateGhost is that those who do pull in these incomes are collectively also the most productive in a given society. You think they're holding you back? Really? How? Is your first instinct generally to blame others? Please give examples.
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:32 PM GMT
    charlitos saidI could have mass murdered 10K millionaires in the UK and you still would have blamed the reduction on higher tax cuts.


    Ok so you're claiming this isn't causal. Care you to propose alternatives with accompanying data?
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:38 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    And what you fail to understand ConfederateGhost is that those who do pull in these incomes are collectively also the most productive in a given society. You think they're holding you back? Really? How? Is your first instinct generally to blame others? Please give examples.


    Most productive?! Productivity is not measured in dollars and cents. Ask American career women who still get paid 70 cents to the dollar men earn for the same exact work.
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:44 PM GMT
    I haven't been held back in any way. I was fortunate enough to be born white, male and to a wealthy christian southern family. I've been afforded every opportunity available in this country. Mine to do with as I wish. I chose to put myself in uncomfortable situations, I chose to chase adventures, and to travel the world. For doing so, my eyes were forced wide open. Not just to the beauty that is life and creation, but also the atrocities and devastation that is greed and lust. So, I'm not blaming anyone for the problems in my life. Like a man I own up to them, face them down, and embrace them.

    Where do you get off saying that the most productive members of a society are the rich people? Do the rich people pick up the trash in the city every day and find a place to dump it so our cities don't become overrun with infestations and disease? Do the rich people ride around patrolling the streets and responding to emergency calls and/or crime scenes? Is it the rich people standing down there at the soup kitchen helping to fill bowls of soup and plates of food for those less fortunate?

    I've told you once before Riddler, your ignorant little games are not going to work on me. When all across the spectrum, CEO's and Presidents are asking their hard working employees to take paycuts so they can add one more hot week-long vacation in Bali to their schedule....then there are series crimes against the people taking place.




    riddler78 said
    ConfederateGhost saidWhat you fail to understand, Riddler, is for someone like me...I don't give a fuck if all the millionaires got together in a third world country to declare how they hate these "failed policys". I'd rather have to climb out of the ashes of this mess through the hard work and strategic planning of middle-class workers than to continuously have those greedy life-suckers holding this country down.

    Let all the millionaires leave, and when they are no longer allowed to leech off our government and people through loopholes and poor regulations, then the middle class will bounce back and we will overcome the current devastation that his been left in the wake of this brazilification.


    And what you fail to understand ConfederateGhost is that those who do pull in these incomes are collectively also the most productive in a given society. You think they're holding you back? Really? How? Is your first instinct generally to blame others? Please give examples.
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:45 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    ConfederateGhost saidWhat you fail to understand, Riddler, is for someone like me...I don't give a fuck if all the millionaires got together in a third world country to declare how they hate these "failed policys". I'd rather have to climb out of the ashes of this mess through the hard work and strategic planning of middle-class workers than to continuously have those greedy life-suckers holding this country down.

    Let all the millionaires leave, and when they are no longer allowed to leech off our government and people through loopholes and poor regulations, then the middle class will bounce back and we will overcome the current devastation that his been left in the wake of this brazilification.


    And what you fail to understand ConfederateGhost is that those who do pull in these incomes are collectively also the most productive in a given society. You think they're holding you back? Really? How? Is your first instinct generally to blame others? Please give examples.
    You make it sound like the working class aren't smart enough to build things back after the rich fuckers leave.

    Thanks for being an asshole.
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    Nov 29, 2012 11:53 PM GMT
    Why are you asking charlitos to substantiate his claim, when neither you nor the authors of these articles have proven that the reduction in the number of people filing as millionaires is due to millionaires leaving rather than the result of: the recession, a change in accounting practices to "shelter" themselves, or any number of other possibilities.

    The burden of proof is on those making this claim, not those who are intelligent enough to recognize that the data provided does not substantiate the claim.


    riddler78 said
    charlitos saidI could have mass murdered 10K millionaires in the UK and you still would have blamed the reduction on higher tax cuts.


    Ok so you're claiming this isn't causal. Care you to propose alternatives with accompanying data?
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    Nov 30, 2012 12:05 AM GMT
    meninlove said It's gotten to the point where I can tell a Riddler topic just by the title, lol.

    Pehaps these millionaires will protest-move to France in the same way the angry Republicans were going to move to Canada.


    Quite. French millionaires are, however, considering moving to the UK to take advantage of our more favourable income taxes.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/278412e6-9538-11e1-8faf-00144feab49a.html
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    Nov 30, 2012 12:16 AM GMT
    creyente saidWhy are you asking charlitos to substantiate his claim, when neither you nor the authors of these articles have proven that the reduction in the number of people filing as millionaires is due to millionaires leaving rather than the result of: the recession, a change in accounting practices to "shelter" themselves, or any number of other possibilities.

    The burden of proof is on those making this claim, not those who are intelligent enough to recognize that the data provided does not substantiate the claim.


    riddler78 said
    charlitos saidI could have mass murdered 10K millionaires in the UK and you still would have blamed the reduction on higher tax cuts.


    Ok so you're claiming this isn't causal. Care you to propose alternatives with accompanying data?


    Ok - so immediately after taxes increased on the rich the level of that category of income earners dropped dramatically. After they reneged on the policy, the number started to climb again. Certainly it's not causation - but it also doesn't seem like a coincidence - nor does it seem unreasonable that people don't respond to incentives.
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    Nov 30, 2012 12:18 AM GMT
    ConfederateGhost saidI haven't been held back in any way. I was fortunate enough to be born white, male and to a wealthy christian southern family. I've been afforded every opportunity available in this country. Mine to do with as I wish. I chose to put myself in uncomfortable situations, I chose to chase adventures, and to travel the world. For doing so, my eyes were forced wide open. Not just to the beauty that is life and creation, but also the atrocities and devastation that is greed and lust. So, I'm not blaming anyone for the problems in my life. Like a man I own up to them, face them down, and embrace them.

    Where do you get off saying that the most productive members of a society are the rich people? Do the rich people pick up the trash in the city every day and find a place to dump it so our cities don't become overrun with infestations and disease? Do the rich people ride around patrolling the streets and responding to emergency calls and/or crime scenes? Is it the rich people standing down there at the soup kitchen helping to fill bowls of soup and plates of food for those less fortunate?

    I've told you once before Riddler, your ignorant little games are not going to work on me. When all across the spectrum, CEO's and Presidents are asking their hard working employees to take paycuts so they can add one more hot week-long vacation in Bali to their schedule....then there are series crimes against the people taking place.




    riddler78 said
    ConfederateGhost saidWhat you fail to understand, Riddler, is for someone like me...I don't give a fuck if all the millionaires got together in a third world country to declare how they hate these "failed policys". I'd rather have to climb out of the ashes of this mess through the hard work and strategic planning of middle-class workers than to continuously have those greedy life-suckers holding this country down.

    Let all the millionaires leave, and when they are no longer allowed to leech off our government and people through loopholes and poor regulations, then the middle class will bounce back and we will overcome the current devastation that his been left in the wake of this brazilification.


    And what you fail to understand ConfederateGhost is that those who do pull in these incomes are collectively also the most productive in a given society. You think they're holding you back? Really? How? Is your first instinct generally to blame others? Please give examples.


    Sorry but your claim is that society loses nothing by their departure. In the case of the UK, this is already proven false by the dramatic fall in income taxes. You still haven't shown any examples of how they collectively take far more than they consume. In fact if you look at the data in the US they are taxed far more relative to the income they take in.
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    Nov 30, 2012 1:28 AM GMT
    We absolutely lose nothing but greedy, power-hungry people.

    Good riddance. They'll still need a bell boy, so your job is secure Riddler.

    I think I've given examples of how they are an evil factor. Look at Wall St. and the pockets of elected officials. Look at the huge % pay increase for CEO's at Hostess and other companies (ones asking their hard workers to make sacrifices). Look at states like Alabama who are "right to work" states, in which you can be fired for any reason by your employer...so there is no job protection. These people can treat you how they wish, and if it weren't for federal mandates like minimum wage, the poverty level in Alabama would be drastically worse than it is.

    You haven't the slightest idea, Riddler, what you are talking about. I'm really at a loss as to why I continue to try and show you how far out of touch you are. But I guess you know you are, otherwise why would you be doing what you're doing?

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    Nov 30, 2012 1:31 AM GMT
    ConfederateGhost saidWe absolutely lose nothing but greedy, power-hungry people.

    Good riddance. They'll still need a bell boy, so your job is secure Riddler.

    I think I've given examples of how they are an evil factor. Look at Wall St. and the pockets of elected officials. Look at the huge % pay increase for CEO's at Hostess and other companies (ones asking their hard workers to make sacrifices). Look at states like Alabama who are "right to work" states, in which you can be fired for any reason by your employer...so there is no job protection. These people can treat you how they wish, and if it weren't for federal mandates like minimum wage, the poverty level in Alabama would be drastically worse than it is.

    You haven't the slightest idea, Riddler, what you are talking about. I'm really at a loss as to why I continue to try and show you how far out of touch you are. But I guess you know you are, otherwise why would you be doing what you're doing?



    Says the guy who is unable to find a shred of evidence for their views... You seem to believe that in the absence of greed, there's altruism as there is in the public sector... oh wait...

    The largest flaw in your views is that you seem to think that there;s a fixed pie.
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    Nov 30, 2012 1:42 AM GMT
    Riddler, I know you can read the following with the same discerning eye as you read WSJ.

    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/04/22/160516/new-jersey-millionaire-tax/
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    Nov 30, 2012 1:46 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidRiddler, I know you can read the following with the same discerning eye as you read WSJ.

    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/04/22/160516/new-jersey-millionaire-tax/


    Again, you seem to confuse the issue here - I am not disputing the idea that you don't see as much physical migration - but the fact is that the numbers dropped because of lower incomes - and in turn, the revenues generated in every single case fell far short of estimates.

    Again, as above the study that you reference from thinkprogress I already addressed above as it is the study from Varner and Young that pointed out that while there wasn't a significant decline the decline was most pronounced from those who were retirees and higher mobility to begin with.

    This however does not mean that there isn't a tipping point - as the data from the UK suggests.
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    Nov 30, 2012 1:49 AM GMT
    Says the guy who completely ignores the evidence that is there every day.

    Alabama is a "right to work" state. Don't believe that? Look it up. This state's poverty level would be way more extreme if not for things like minimum wage? Disagree? Go ask the citizens of Alabama.

    You can say I'm balking all you want, Riddler, but it doesn't change the truth and I'm pretty sure basically everyone here but you sees it.

    I have no altruisms, I have hope. I also am not blind to what hasn't been working. Rampant free reign capitalism is destroying our middle class.

    You say it's the millionaires who create jobs. These company's they own are not built by their own two hands. They are are comprised of more than one person working different aspects, for the same goal. Wal-Mart does not exist without it's mechanisms running. The warehouse workers who unload and stack. The dispatchers who maintain the flow of merchandise from warehouse to stores. The drivers who delivers that merchandise. The store employees who unload, stock, assist, and direct customers. There would be no company without these people, When these people need a second job just to pay for one house, two kids, and some food, while the CEOs of Wal-Mart are tanning in one of their numerous houses on the beach...it's simply disgusting.

    You really have no valid arguments to make, Riddler, so I'm done now.


    riddler78 said
    ConfederateGhost saidWe absolutely lose nothing but greedy, power-hungry people.

    Good riddance. They'll still need a bell boy, so your job is secure Riddler.

    I think I've given examples of how they are an evil factor. Look at Wall St. and the pockets of elected officials. Look at the huge % pay increase for CEO's at Hostess and other companies (ones asking their hard workers to make sacrifices). Look at states like Alabama who are "right to work" states, in which you can be fired for any reason by your employer...so there is no job protection. These people can treat you how they wish, and if it weren't for federal mandates like minimum wage, the poverty level in Alabama would be drastically worse than it is.

    You haven't the slightest idea, Riddler, what you are talking about. I'm really at a loss as to why I continue to try and show you how far out of touch you are. But I guess you know you are, otherwise why would you be doing what you're doing?



    Says the guy who is unable to find a shred of evidence for their views... You seem to believe that in the absence of greed, there's altruism as there is in the public sector... oh wait...

    The largest flaw in your views is that you seem to think that there;s a fixed pie.
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    Nov 30, 2012 1:59 AM GMT
    riddler78 saidA lot more at the link.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100191962/britains-millionaire-exodus-is-a-wake-up-call-to-barack-obamas-high-tax-america/

    In the 2009-10 tax year, more than 16,000 people declared an annual income of more than £1 million to HM Revenue and Customs. This number fell to just 6,000 after Gordon Brown introduced the new 50p top rate of income tax shortly before the last general election.

    Since George Osborne announced a reduction of the top rate to 45 percent in his April budget “the number of people declaring annual incomes of more than £1 million has risen to 10,000.” This is a figure still significantly below earlier levels, and it will be a huge challenge for Britain to recover its lost wealth. As Conservative MP Harriet Baldwin puts it, “Labour’s ideological tax hike led to a tax cull of millionaires,” costing the UK around £7 billion in lost tax revenue.

    There are important lessons here for the White House, and the figures coming from the UK should be a wake-up call for President Obama, who has pledged to force "the wealthiest Americans to pay a little more in taxes.” Specifically, Obama wants to raise the top rate tax in the United States for those earning $250,000 a year or above by nearly five percentage points, from 35 percent to 39.6 percent (which may rise as high as 43.4 percent according to Jennifer Rubin at The Washington Post). Compare this to the current top marginal individual income tax rate in Singapore of 20 percent, and Hong Kong at 15 percent.

    Yawn. Democrats are just asking for an increase in the upper income bracket to Bill Clinton levels. You know, when our economy was booming and our federal budget was in surplus.
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    Nov 30, 2012 2:02 AM GMT
    ConfederateGhost saidSays the guy who completely ignores the evidence that is there every day.

    Alabama is a "right to work" state. Don't believe that? Look it up. This state's poverty level would be way more extreme if not for things like minimum wage? Disagree? Go ask the citizens of Alabama.

    You can say I'm balking all you want, Riddler, but it doesn't change the truth and I'm pretty sure basically everyone here but you sees it.

    I have no altruisms, I have hope. I also am not blind to what hasn't been working. Rampant free reign capitalism is destroying our middle class.

    You say it's the millionaires who create jobs. These company's they own are not built by their own two hands. They are are comprised of more than one person working different aspects, for the same goal. Wal-Mart does not exist without it's mechanisms running. The warehouse workers who unload and stack. The dispatchers who maintain the flow of merchandise from warehouse to stores. The drivers who delivers that merchandise. The store employees who unload, stock, assist, and direct customers. There would be no company without these people, When these people need a second job just to pay for one house, two kids, and some food, while the CEOs of Wal-Mart are tanning in one of their numerous houses on the beach...it's simply disgusting.

    You really have no valid arguments to make, Riddler, so I'm done now.


    The only people who have no valid arguments to make are generally those who don't bother to make any arguments at all - as you've done. But finally, you've presented one piece of evidence - your claim would be that because Alabama is a right to work state, therefore it is beholden to millionaires and by my logic it should be wealthy but it's not.

    Well no, that's not my argument. Have a look at a basket of economic freedom metrics - which places Alabama #15 *from the bottom*.

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/economic-freedom-of-north-america-2012.pdf

    So despite the fact that it may be a right to work state - which I fully believe, it is also one of the least economically free states in the US. It's even under *California*. You must think I'm partisan - except I'm not. Republicans are hardly consistent advocates of economic freedom either.

    I have no doubt that there are many in a company that help to add value - but you still need entrepreneurs and leaders which are in far shorter supply. A shipper can't exist without something to ship while an entrepreneur/creator can always find someone to help ship - either to hire or to contract out.

    So little wonder Alabama is one of the poorest states - it also has one of the lowest levels of economic freedom.
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    Nov 30, 2012 2:03 AM GMT
    riddler78 saidMore helpful facts:
    Millionaires Go Missing: Maryland's fleeced taxpayers fight back.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html

    Maryland couldn't balance its budget last year, so the state tried to close the shortfall by fleecing the wealthy. Politicians in Annapolis created a millionaire tax bracket, raising the top marginal income-tax rate to 6.25%. And because cities such as Baltimore and Bethesda also impose income taxes, the state-local tax rate can go as high as 9.45%. Governor Martin O'Malley, a dedicated class warrior, declared that these richest 0.3% of filers were "willing and able to pay their fair share." The Baltimore Sun predicted the rich would "grin and bear it."

    One year later, nobody's grinning. One-third of the millionaires have disappeared from Maryland tax rolls. In 2008 roughly 3,000 million-dollar income tax returns were filed by the end of April. This year there were 2,000, which the state comptroller's office concedes is a "substantial decline." On those missing returns, the government collects 6.25% of nothing. Instead of the state coffers gaining the extra $106 million the politicians predicted, millionaires paid $100 million less in taxes than they did last year -- even at higher rates.

    No doubt the majority of that loss in millionaire filings results from the recession. However, this is one reason that depending on the rich to finance government is so ill-advised: Progressive tax rates create mountains of cash during good times that vanish during recessions. For evidence, consult California, New York and New Jersey (see here).

    Right from the article you cited: "No doubt the majority of that loss in millionaire filings results from the recession."
    Anyway, comparing movement across intranational borders with international borders is rather absurd.