Given up convincing Republicans

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    Sep 15, 2008 12:56 AM GMT
    I have read and read, looked at all the issues, and I have come to a conclusion. Most people who plan to vote for McCain and Palin are not makig a rational decision. They are making decisions based on fear, prejudice, or other irrational motivations. I am not implying that they are not intelligent, or anything else. Just that this particular decision they have made is not so.

    Consequently, I am focusing my efforts on making sure that the lies and propaganda of the right does not discourage the people who would support Obama from voting. As they did to McCain in SC in 2000, and Kerry in 2004, the right wing attack engine is poised to spread lies about Obama in an effort to disillusion independents who plan on voting for him. Their only hope, since a McCain/Palin choice is not rational, based on their positions, is to convince more people to decide based on fear and prejudice. Some on the left will counter with similar attacks on McCain (although fewer, I believe). All designed to appear to fear and to divide us, the independents.

    It's these people, independents, I want to reach. People will be lying to you about Obama. Some may lie about McCain as well. Don't get discouraged. Look at the issues, and whoever you choose, based on the issues, stick with it. Remember, Bill Clinton lied about an affair, but almost all of the people on the impeachment committee investigating were hiding their own adulterous affairs. People smeared McCain as having fathered an illegitimate child in SC, when he was runing against Bush, but it was not true. No one is perfect, but almost no one is as bad as the smears in campaigns make them out to be. If you truly believe that McCain's positions on the issues are the best for you, and that Palin will be qualified to replace him if needed, then vote for him. But vote because of the issues, not because of rumors. If you don't know their relative positions, research it-- you can start with http://www.ontheissues.org Then listen to what they say about the issues in the debates.

    And remember, whatever you may hear about any of the four, Obama, Biden, McCain, Palin, there is NO WAY they could possibly be worse than Bush/Cheney. And no scandal is likely to be worse than Clinton's. We're not looking for the most goodie two shoes we can find-- we're looking for someone who will defend and protect the constitution-- ALL of it, and our freedom to live governed by it. The stands on the issues of the four say a LOT about their ability to do that. The rest is just trying to distract you. Don't let them.
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    Sep 15, 2008 1:49 AM GMT
    I have to say that I've given up on Repugs too, overall, and locally just try to influence with the truth about Obama's stands, and the issues to those who are wavering. As you said most repugs don't seem to want to listen to reason. It seems to me they've formed a decision usually on irrational efforts to justify their continued republican vote. Your a bit kinder to McPalin than I am though, I cannot see one "redeaming grace" worth anyones vote !!! loL !!! As far as Clintons lie about his personal business, I think its totally in the realm of "don't ask me about my business, and I'll tell you no lie" His lies doesn't even register on the "ricter scale" compared to the earthquake sized bush/cheney record. GO OBAMA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Sep 15, 2008 2:54 AM GMT
    I don't think anyone knowingly votes irrationally -- either Dem or Repub. That is not to say people don't vote irrationally, they do, just they don't think they are. You can say people voting Republican are doing so irrationally, but the same can be said for the other side. I doubt that either side can really be convinced to change their mind at this point in time in an important election year -- okay, maybe there's few undecided. But you're trying to change peoples view of the world, how they've experienced and what priorities they place on issues, and that's something you can't really do in a argument. People do evolve, but that is something that happens over time.
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    Sep 15, 2008 2:56 AM GMT
    tanktop...

    i am sure that you realized long ago that most of the self identified log cabin types or the just plain contrarian types are mostly, or purely, ideological in their construct of the world. they are beyond suasion because they have made a decision (maybe knowing and maybe not) to not engage and think about national political issues
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:05 AM GMT
    I think few people vote or make decisions based upon reason, whether they are Democratic or Republican, Southern Baptist or Sunni, Pepsi or Coke.

    I'm so frequently unimpressed with the driving ability of people, let alone their political persuasions.

    If reason were involved, I doubt either party would stand much of a chance.

    Sorry to be the thread-killer.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:11 AM GMT
    I can totally relate. Trying to convince Republicans how much their party is destroying the country is like banging my head against a wall - except w/o the sweet release of unconsciousness. I can understand having different views on the role of government, terrorism, taxes, etc., but I honestly can't fathom how anybody with an ounce of sanity, conscience or intelligence could vote for McCain right now. It's extremely frightening.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:15 AM GMT
    mickeytopogigio saidI think few people vote or make decisions based upon reason, whether they are Democratic or Republican, Southern Baptist or Sunni, Pepsi or Coke.

    I'm so frequently unimpressed with the driving ability of people, let alone their political persuasions.

    If reason were involved, I doubt either party would stand much of a chance.

    Sorry to be the thread-killer.


    Definitely agree with this. In fact I wouldn't even waist my time trying to convince Right or Left to think differently. They have arrived at their choices for whatever reason. My life isn't so damn perfect that my way of thinking should ever be considered absolute for someone else.

    What I encourage all to do is to VOTE no matter who it is. Just be sure and VOTE. Take that vote very serious and educate yourself about each candidate. Not the monday morning gossip bullshit that might include that a candidate was seen picking his or her nose at Taco Bell but educate yourself on all of the issues. Find that candidate that best represents your ideals and how you'd like to see this nation.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Sep 15, 2008 3:28 AM GMT
    Well those that support McCain and the Palin woman have some motivation... usually its unfortunate perception based on some past history that isn't even reality any more .. (like for instance smaller government or a balanced budget) or its based on family history. They'd rather stick their necks in the ground than acknowledge what this president has done to the country....
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:43 AM GMT
    tanktop saidI have read and read, looked at all the issues, and I have come to a conclusion. Most people who plan to vote for McCain and Palin are not makig a rational decision. They are making decisions based on fear, prejudice, or other irrational motivations. I am not implying that they are not intelligent, or anything else. Just that this particular decision they have made is not so.


    Not to side track but are you directing this at just gay voters or all people in general?

    If it's the latter then perhaps like it's so often easy to do there are many other points of view existing out there. To many people praying gays away isn't an issue or even something considered in an election. People vote for a candidate that will most directly impact their own lives. For many people voting republican on the presidential ticket makes perfect sense.

    It's a vast over generalization to simply say that anyone not voting Democrat is illogical or wrong. I voted republican in state for governor (Jodi Rell) and plan to keep doing so long as she keeps up with the policy of conserving state funds for the incoming rainy days ahead.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19129

    Sep 15, 2008 3:50 AM GMT
    Yes, by all means please, please, PLEASE stop trying to change the minds of those of us who are Republicans, proudly Republicans, and who are voting for McCain/Palin for all sorts of reasons -- all of them well-informed, well thought out, not based on fear, but rather how we view the world. It's different than yours -- deal with it. Doesn't necessarily make it wrong or right. However, someone's VOTE is a personal thing, as is their opinion, and we are all entitled to that. If you're an Obama supporter, good for you, support him. You have your reasons, you are entitled to them, I respect that, and I assume your reasons are based on your own knowledge of the issues and your personal take on them. Go for it! Don't begrudge me, or others, if we have a different opinion. Just accept it as "different", not "irrationally motivated" or "twisted thinking".
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:53 AM GMT
    People, I've noticed, spend more time reinforcing a decision than investigating its institution. Because they cannot comprehend large numbers or compare multiple streams of data, most people hear the gist of what they are capable of hearing (or believe someone who summarizes for them) and make a quick, decisive gut reaction. This describes both Democrats and Republicans.

    We are George Bush. We are Sarah Palin.

    For the few people who are actually capable of rational, multi-tasking thought, most of their life is spent muttering incoherently, tip-toeing upstream from pebble to pebble, and medicating themselves into numbness. I don't want to have a beer with them.

    I think I'm a lot like George Bush. When the planes slammed into the building in New York, he sat there limp and stunned, wondering what it would look like to the kids if he abruptly left the room. As much as I hated to admit it, I would have done the same thing.

    What is the Bush Doctrine? I admit I didn't know either, and would have sat there quietly eating shit while Charlie Gibson explained to me what the hell I was supposed to be answering.

    So, I know I'm an idiot, a sheep. Someone who hasn't applied himself enough to lead a parade, let alone a nation.

    Which is why I would never vote for me. I don't want a beer-drinking buddy watching over my car, let alone the nation. I want someone who can dismiss me for the greater good to get the job done; someone who is an egg-head snob, who can argue circles around me and does more in one day than I can do in a week.

    For what it's worth, here's my gut reaction, an aforementioned affront to rational thought: McCain has sacrificed enough to earn my respect...I think he's earned the presidency; the country has sacrificed enough to corporations, terrorists and war...I think it's earned Obama.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:59 AM GMT
    icon_lol.gif I don't think anyone is really trying to convince anyone else, they are just arguing! icon_lol.gif
  • CAtoFL

    Posts: 834

    Sep 15, 2008 4:13 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidHowever, someone's VOTE is a personal thing, as is their opinion, and we are all entitled to that. ... Don't begrudge me, or others, if we have a different opinion. Just accept it as "different", not "irrationally motivated" or "twisted thinking".


    THANK YOU! Although neither Republican or Democrat, I am just plain sick and tired of people telling ME how I should use MY vote on what is essentially a gay fitness site. What kind of delusions of grandeur do you folks have that you think I would vote the way YOU want me to? icon_evil.gif

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    Sep 15, 2008 4:27 AM GMT
    ActiveAndFit saidicon_lol.gif I don't think anyone is really trying to convince anyone else, they are just arguing! icon_lol.gif


    ditto
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    Sep 15, 2008 4:35 AM GMT
    edit:

    I take it back and hope autumn weather cools some hot heads.
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    Sep 15, 2008 4:44 AM GMT
    PSCalif saidTHANK YOU! Although neither Republican or Democrat, I am just plain sick and tired of people telling ME how I should use MY vote on what is essentially a gay fitness site. What kind of delusions of grandeur do you folks have that you think I would vote the way YOU want me to? icon_evil.gif

    icon_rolleyes.gif But are they really telling you or are you just putting your ear to the door and not liking what you hear? That is to say, you are responding to forums that you have a choice not to read. "Gay fitness health and life" includes a lot of things. Maybe there should be a specific category for politics, but right now Gay news and events includes .. "politics" as the election is an event.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Sep 15, 2008 8:27 AM GMT
    Who's trying to change people's minds?

    I'm just pointing out a recurring fallacy ....
    This is the same show that gave us Ronnie and George W Bush
    and to vote for McCain
    is just another "Yessir, and I'll have another!" moment

    I just want to make that as clear as possible

    2008 Presidential candidates' positions

    Democratic nominee Barack Obama favors repealing the policy and allowing gay and lesbian people to serve openly in the armed forces. When questioned during a June 2007 debate, all major Republican candidates indicated support for keeping the current policy.[13] Republican nominee John McCain, a retired Navy Captain, has made it very clear he is 100% opposed to allowing gay or lesbian people serve openly in the armed forces and has affirmed that if elected he will stand by the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy.
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    Sep 15, 2008 1:21 PM GMT
    GQjock saidWho's trying to change people's minds?

    I'm just pointing out a recurring fallacy ....
    This is the same show that gave us Ronnie and George W Bush
    and to vote for McCain
    is just another "Yessir, and I'll have another!" moment

    I just want to make that as clear as possible

    2008 Presidential candidates' positions

    Democratic nominee Barack Obama favors repealing the policy and allowing gay and lesbian people to serve openly in the armed forces. When questioned during a June 2007 debate, all major Republican candidates indicated support for keeping the current policy.[13] Republican nominee John McCain, a retired Navy Captain, has made it very clear he is 100% opposed to allowing gay or lesbian people serve openly in the armed forces and has affirmed that if elected he will stand by the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy.


    This is exactly what I am talking about. You raise a specific issue directly relevant to almost everyone on this site. For anyone supporting McCain, the only rational responses would be:

    1. I do not think gays should serve openly, or
    2. I do not think that's really McCain's position, or
    3. I disagree with McCain, but think that these other specific issues are more important...

    Irrational answers are:

    1. McCain was a POW and war hero
    2. Obama never served in the military
    3. Hillary was better on gay rights

    Basically, most people refuse to debate the issues, and/or minimize their importance. Similarly, people refuse to look at evidence. For example, the economy has done much worse under Bush than Clinton, and the deficit has soared. "Converatives" who want to vote for McCain need to come up with some explanation of why reducing taxes and expanding free trade has caused a near collapse of the economy, and why these policies should continue. The need to explain how the current policies will replay the $31,700 per person debt they got us into.

    The same lack of logic applies to war policy. It's like gambling-- if you go to Vegas and lose half your money, you can say to yourself "I'm in it for half, I can't cut and run." This response is emotional, not logical. The logical response is "I have lost half, if I risk the other half, I will probably lose it too." But I wouldn't try to convince someone of that.

    Basically in summary, when people ask me why I am voting for Obama, I say McCain is a great guy, and definitely qualified to be president, but I can't vote for him because of his positions on abortion, gay rights, health care, and the war. So far, no one conservative has said the opposite to me... Obama is great, but I can't vote for him because of these issues...

    I do respect that some people agree with McCain on the issues, and as I have said, if you do, then I am not trying to change your mind. I am just trying to remind the independents of what the issues are, and why those that agree with Obama should stick with him as McCain's campaign spreads lies.


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    Sep 15, 2008 2:31 PM GMT
    I'd like to think that most gay republicans are associated with the Republican party in order to change it from within. It used to be a great party and I commend this approach...in theory. However, it seems the GOP gays aren't getting the job done fast enough, because the party gets their vote, but the changes don't seem to be happening. The religious zealots still have their grip on the party, and the party was winning for far too long. They're still too close to taking this election for my comfort.

    So I ask gay republicans: What specifically are you doing internally to help better the party and make it a party that a non-"religious-zealot" like me would be willing to join? Because right now religious ideaology is not what drives my political motivations. I think most reasonable people feel the same.
  • SanEsteban

    Posts: 454

    Sep 15, 2008 3:25 PM GMT
    I'm sorry guys but I do get tired hearing that the way I think or will vote is irrational. I will admit, I am a registered Republican which is contrary to most of the gay community. We all have our opinions and we all need to respect eachother on our unique points of view. I don't tell my Democratic friends that they are irrational thinking the way they do. I seem to find that in the gay community, people can be very closed minded when someone may think out of the norm or out of the box. Aren't we the group who always tries to "Celebrate Diversity"? That can extend to political views and opinions too. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:29 PM GMT
    I have an even better idea, let's stop trying to find reason with any politician lol. Of course most people will support their party because they have the same thoughts and ideas, don't expect everyone to feel the same way as you do. Life is not a big bowl of cherry's so suck it up and get over yourself already.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:47 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said Don't begrudge me, or others, if we have a different opinion. Just accept it as "different", not "irrationally motivated" or "twisted thinking".


    I bet you if we did a psychological study of Republicans, we would find that they are motivated by fear and carry with them a larger amount of anxiety related to 9/11 and fear that we will be attacked again by terrorists.

    This is my problem, is that I do believe that while I could simply 'accept' their opinions as different, I think that republicans are controlled by their fears and anxieties- and for no good reason. I dont understand how any republican could stay faithful to to their party after what happened with the Iraq war. A war we know was based on "bad information"...... icon_rolleyes.gif

    I think that its important to examine our own biases and see what makes us each tick the way we do.... deeply.... before we choose a candidate. I have a feeling that many people may switch their choice in candidate if they look inside and find that they are motivated by fear of the unknown....
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19129

    Sep 15, 2008 3:52 PM GMT
    tanktop saidI am just trying to remind the independents of what the issues are, and why those that agree with Obama should stick with him as McCain's campaign spreads lies.





    I take it by this statement that you believe that Obama has run an entirely honest campaign...that his ads have never consisted of any exaggerations or half-truths or all out lies? Never?
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    Sep 15, 2008 4:10 PM GMT
    Kasaz saidI'm sorry guys but I do get tired hearing that the way I think or will vote is irrational. I will admit, I am a registered Republican which is contrary to most of the gay community. We all have our opinions and we all need to respect eachother on our unique points of view. I don't tell my Democratic friends that they are irrational thinking the way they do. I seem to find that in the gay community, people can be very closed minded when someone may think out of the norm or out of the box. Aren't we the group who always tries to "Celebrate Diversity"? That can extend to political views and opinions too. icon_biggrin.gif


    When you take statements such as "most people" and convert them to "I," is that rational? Why do you respond by assuming people are attacking you personally, and then call people closed minded? Does that mean you are attacking them personally? Your comment is a perfect example of what I am saying, because you don't cite any issues, you just respond by being defensive.

    I am tired of hearing defenses based on party loyalties. Or diversity. Or anything else besides the issues. Show me how McCain's views on the issues will benefit me, and benefit the world at large, and I am completely open to changing my vote. But I am not hearing that, because there are very few SPECIFIC issues on which McCain's stances can be defended rationally as beneficial to someone like me. The issue regarding Palin's daughter is a good example. We defend her right to privacy, and honor her decision to choose to have the baby rather than an abortion. But we don't discuss the issue at hand-- if McCain is president, he will appoint judges who will most likely take away that right to choice. How people feel about Palin's family, privacy, etc is irrelevant. It's a straightforward case of McCain not respecting women's right to have "unique points of view," while Obama does. Take gay marriage. Obama's stance is that denominations/churches should decide. McCain thinks that states should decide for them. Again, he does not respect "unique points of view." On gays in the military, McCain does not respect diversity, Obama does.

    But again, I don't expect party loyalists to be persuaded by any of these arguments.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19129

    Sep 15, 2008 4:13 PM GMT
    ZbmwM5 said
    CuriousJockAZ said Don't begrudge me, or others, if we have a different opinion. Just accept it as "different", not "irrationally motivated" or "twisted thinking".


    I bet you if we did a psychological study of Republicans, we would find that they are motivated by fear and carry with them a larger amount of anxiety related to 9/11 and fear that we will be attacked again by terrorists.

    This is my problem, is that I do believe that while I could simply 'accept' their opinions as different, I think that republicans are controlled by their fears and anxieties- and for no good reason. I dont understand how any republican could stay faithful to to their party after what happened with the Iraq war. A war we know was based on "bad information"...... icon_rolleyes.gif

    I think that its important to examine our own biases and see what makes us each tick the way we do.... deeply.... before we choose a candidate. I have a feeling that many people may switch their choice in candidate if they look inside and find that they are motivated by fear of the unknown....




    This argument can go both ways. One could just as easily argue that people who vote Democrat are also motivated by "fear" or the "unknown". A good example is your statement "I dont understand how any Republican could stay faithful to to their party after what happened with the Iraq war. A war we know was based on bad information". This statement tells me that you do not have a fundamental understanding of why we are at war in Iraq in the first place, or why we are STILL in Iraq. Saddam may not have had anything to do with 9/11 but he did have WMDs at one time. We know this because he gassed his own people and placed them in mass graves. We may not have found these WMDs years later, but it could be argued that Saddam Hussein himself was a WMD. Is the world at large safer without Saddam? I guess that would be debatable. Logic would say that, YES, it probably is. The people of Iraq are certainly safer, and they are free. We do know that both Afghanistan and Iraq are a breeding ground for terrorists, and they are the front on the broader "War on Terrorism". That's the way we want it, so it doesn't come to the U.S. where we could have another 9/11. This is sort of "War on Terror 101", so if you don't get the very basic fundamentals of why we are fighting this war and how crucial it is that we stay on the offensive and win it, than I don't believe anything myself or anyone else can say will enlighten you.