Gun law clarification?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 15, 2012 12:20 PM GMT
    I was hoping that you guys could give me some clarification on U.S. gun laws in light of the terrible shootings yesterday.

    This may come across as a bit of a rant (and in part it is). Being from the U.K. I find myself genuinely baffled by your societies need for guns, I understand that it's a completely different culture and that you've been brought up in a society where guns are acceptable, my boyfriend is originally from California and this is something that we've spoken about a lot, however I just don't understand it and I find myself having to ask; how many times does an incident like this have to happen before your government/society will change? The U.K has never had the right for the general public to own firearms without strict controls in place and we seem to have done ok so far. I know we're far from a perfect society and we have our fair share of societal problems, but we don't have atrocities on the scale of your school shootings.

    20 innocent children lost their lives yesterday. Thats 20 young people that will never grow up, will never experience falling in love, will never get to go to their first prom, play football for their school or be a cheerleader, or go to collage, and they'll never have the opportunity to have a family of their own. They have been ripped away from their families just before Christmas, their presents already bought, wrapped and under the tree, their families now denied a happy holiday season with their loved ones. 

    They have been denied all of this because people want the freedom to own guns? but to what end, just so that they can shoot at a target at a shooting range or go hunting in the woods, and all under the guise of being able to defend ones home and family? If the freedom to defend my home and family also means that people capable of such an abhorrent and contemptible act are also allowed to own guns, then that is a freedom I would gladly lay down!

    Maybe if guns were not so readily available then you wouldn't need a gun to defend yourself against someone coming into your home with a gun?

    I understand that is your constitutional right to bear arm, and I understand the need for such a law at the time it was written. Of course all rights and freedoms should be defended and upheld. However if a right also allows a group of people, no matter how small, to carry out such mallicouse crimes as the three shootings that you have had this year and to allow them to deny people an even more fundamental right and freedom the right to live and excist, then surely something needs to change?

    To the best of my knowledge, I only know of 3 such incidents since 1996 in the U.K. and gun laws were tightened immediately. The U.S.A. has had three similar shooting this year alone, with no attempt to change the law to protect those who need it.

    I know it may sound like I'm attacking the fabric of your society and everything that your nation is built on, that is not my intent. I'm just an outsider looking on your great nation trying to understand you and wondering why you allow this to happen. The whole concept of owning a gun is alien to me, I can genuinely say that in the (nearly) 30 years I've been alive I have never held a gun or even been close enough to one to have the opportunity to hold it. By posting this forum topic I am hoping to gain some level of understanding about gun ownership.

    I know people will be very devided over this and I'm hoping that through debate I'll be able to understand it better.

    Again I have to ask all of you; when are measures going to be put in place to at least help prevent such atrocities?

    Sorry it's so long, I just wanted to be clear on what I looking to understand
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    Dec 15, 2012 12:46 PM GMT
    Well said, yesterday's shootings were devastating to a whole community, 20 children all under the age of 10 killed for what seems to be no apparent reason. Did you see the guns he used? All legally obtained by his mother! Things have got to change America, whole societies around the world are doing just fine with strict gun laws, why can't you? I'm heartbroken for those families in Newtown who have lost their children, their mothers and fathers, their loved ones...maybe some change will come from this, but I doubt it
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    Dec 15, 2012 1:54 PM GMT
    Let's not let the facts get ahead of our outrage:

    British Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

    Meanwhile gun crime has been falling in the US:
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/08/guns-in-america-a-statistical-look/

    And elsewhere...

    nytdissonance.png
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    Dec 15, 2012 2:12 PM GMT
    Yes gun crime has gone up, but that report was published 3 years ago. The British government has put legislature in place to tackle gangs with more powers given to the police, who themselves don't carry guns.

    Although gun crime has increased in recent years we still don't get crimes of the same magnitude as America does.

    And I'm not having a go at America, I'm merely trying to understand why you as a people feel it necessary to own a gun.

    The incident in Newtown has been discussed greatly in the UK both in the news and amongst the general population. There seems to a common opinion amoung people, they all seem, myself included, to be confused by your reaction to events like these. You all come out and say how disgusted you are by them, how you could never condone such actions, yet no one is willing to stand up and make the much needed and necessary changes to gun laws.

    As I said above my boyfriend is from California (moved to the UK 7 years ago) he owned a gun while he lived in the States, and he keeps telling me that Americas attitude towards guns will never change.

    I'm interested to know if that's true and if many other people feel the same?

    Personally I don't think that whether or not people want to change or not is up for debate, you NEED to change, or incidents like this will keep happening.
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    Dec 15, 2012 2:15 PM GMT
    gayroy saidYes gun crime has gone up, but that report was published 3 years ago. The British government has put legislature in place to tackle gangs with more powers given to the police, who themselves don't carry guns.

    Although gun crime has increased in recent years we still don't get crimes of the same magnitude as America does.

    And I'm not having a go at America, I'm merely trying to understand why you as a people feel it necessary to own a gun.

    The incident in Newtown has been discussed greatly in the UK both in the news and amongst the general population. There seems to a common opinion amoung people, they all seem, myself included, to be confused by your reaction to events like these. You all come out and say how disgusted you are by them, how you could never condone such actions, yet no one is willing to stand up and make the much needed and necessary changes to gun laws.

    As I said above my boyfriend is from California (moved to the UK 7 years ago) he owned a gun while he lived in the States, and he keeps telling me that Americas attitude towards guns will never change.

    I'm interested to know if that's true and if many other people feel the same?

    Personally I don't think that whether or not people want to change or not is up for debate, you NEED to change, or incidents like this will keep happening.


    Isn't your assumption here that if gun control laws were passed these things wouldn't happen? In fact the evidence is quite the opposite when it comes to overall gun violence that it in fact goes up after gun control happens. China has seen a number of violent attacks directed at kids where the attackers have used knives - what lesson should they or we take from that? Isn't it just as if not even more horrifying that some guy knifed 22 kids in China?

    Again, I am curious - why do you suppose that your first inclination is to blame the lack of gun laws for this awful violence? If you look at the totality of the evidence, this seems more based on your own personal feelings than facts...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 15, 2012 2:21 PM GMT
    Yeah! Banning all guns will totally stop this sort of thing!icon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif




    Man stabs 22 children at China primary school
    http://za.news.yahoo.com/man-stabs-22-children-china-primary-school-105339444.html

    th?id=H.4721578630054266&pid=15.1
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 15, 2012 2:22 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    gayroy saidYes gun crime has gone up, but that report was published 3 years ago. The British government has put legislature in place to tackle gangs with more powers given to the police, who themselves don't carry guns.

    Although gun crime has increased in recent years we still don't get crimes of the same magnitude as America does.

    And I'm not having a go at America, I'm merely trying to understand why you as a people feel it necessary to own a gun.

    The incident in Newtown has been discussed greatly in the UK both in the news and amongst the general population. There seems to a common opinion amoung people, they all seem, myself included, to be confused by your reaction to events like these. You all come out and say how disgusted you are by them, how you could never condone such actions, yet no one is willing to stand up and make the much needed and necessary changes to gun laws.

    As I said above my boyfriend is from California (moved to the UK 7 years ago) he owned a gun while he lived in the States, and he keeps telling me that Americas attitude towards guns will never change.

    I'm interested to know if that's true and if many other people feel the same?

    Personally I don't think that whether or not people want to change or not is up for debate, you NEED to change, or incidents like this will keep happening.


    Isn't your assumption here that if gun control laws were passed these things wouldn't happen? In fact the evidence is quite the opposite when it comes to overall gun violence that it in fact goes up after gun control happens. China has seen a number of violent attacks directed at kids where the attackers have used knives - what lesson should they or we take from that?


    Really, there are incidents of line wolf knife men killing dozens of children in minutes????

    Something tells me you're a shameless liar, politicizing a tragedy. If I believed in hell, I'd tell you to go there. As it were, I'll just say, Drop dead, Riddler.icon_mad.gif
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    Dec 15, 2012 2:25 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    gayroy saidYes gun crime has gone up, but that report was published 3 years ago. The British government has put legislature in place to tackle gangs with more powers given to the police, who themselves don't carry guns.

    Although gun crime has increased in recent years we still don't get crimes of the same magnitude as America does.

    And I'm not having a go at America, I'm merely trying to understand why you as a people feel it necessary to own a gun.

    The incident in Newtown has been discussed greatly in the UK both in the news and amongst the general population. There seems to a common opinion amoung people, they all seem, myself included, to be confused by your reaction to events like these. You all come out and say how disgusted you are by them, how you could never condone such actions, yet no one is willing to stand up and make the much needed and necessary changes to gun laws.

    As I said above my boyfriend is from California (moved to the UK 7 years ago) he owned a gun while he lived in the States, and he keeps telling me that Americas attitude towards guns will never change.

    I'm interested to know if that's true and if many other people feel the same?

    Personally I don't think that whether or not people want to change or not is up for debate, you NEED to change, or incidents like this will keep happening.


    Isn't your assumption here that if gun control laws were passed these things wouldn't happen? In fact the evidence is quite the opposite when it comes to overall gun violence that it in fact goes up after gun control happens. China has seen a number of violent attacks directed at kids where the attackers have used knives - what lesson should they or we take from that?


    Really, there are incidents of line wolf knife men killing dozens of children in minutes????

    Something tells me you're a shameless liar, politicizing a tragedy. If I believed in hell, I'd tell you to go there. As it were, I'll just say, Drop dead, Riddler.icon_mad.gif


    This happened on the same day of the Newton attack - but it happened hours *before* the Newton attack:
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230

    But the point being is that while there's no denying that guns enabled this evil act, it was perpetrated by someone who was obviously disturbed.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 15, 2012 2:30 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    gayroy saidYes gun crime has gone up, but that report was published 3 years ago. The British government has put legislature in place to tackle gangs with more powers given to the police, who themselves don't carry guns.

    Although gun crime has increased in recent years we still don't get crimes of the same magnitude as America does.

    And I'm not having a go at America, I'm merely trying to understand why you as a people feel it necessary to own a gun.

    The incident in Newtown has been discussed greatly in the UK both in the news and amongst the general population. There seems to a common opinion amoung people, they all seem, myself included, to be confused by your reaction to events like these. You all come out and say how disgusted you are by them, how you could never condone such actions, yet no one is willing to stand up and make the much needed and necessary changes to gun laws.

    As I said above my boyfriend is from California (moved to the UK 7 years ago) he owned a gun while he lived in the States, and he keeps telling me that Americas attitude towards guns will never change.

    I'm interested to know if that's true and if many other people feel the same?

    Personally I don't think that whether or not people want to change or not is up for debate, you NEED to change, or incidents like this will keep happening.


    Isn't your assumption here that if gun control laws were passed these things wouldn't happen? In fact the evidence is quite the opposite when it comes to overall gun violence that it in fact goes up after gun control happens. China has seen a number of violent attacks directed at kids where the attackers have used knives - what lesson should they or we take from that?


    Really, there are incidents of line wolf knife men killing dozens of children in minutes????

    Something tells me you're a shameless liar, politicizing a tragedy. If I believed in hell, I'd tell you to go there. As it were, I'll just say, Drop dead, Riddler.icon_mad.gif


    This happened on the same day of the Newton attack - but it happened hours *before* the Newton attack:
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230

    But the point being is that while there's no denying that guns enabled this evil act, it was perpetrated by someone who was obviously disturbed.


    Yeah, I read the article... NONE OF THE VICTIMS DIED!!!!


    You're proving my point that guns need to be suppressed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 15, 2012 2:39 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    gayroy saidYes gun crime has gone up, but that report was published 3 years ago. The British government has put legislature in place to tackle gangs with more powers given to the police, who themselves don't carry guns.

    Although gun crime has increased in recent years we still don't get crimes of the same magnitude as America does.

    And I'm not having a go at America, I'm merely trying to understand why you as a people feel it necessary to own a gun.

    The incident in Newtown has been discussed greatly in the UK both in the news and amongst the general population. There seems to a common opinion amoung people, they all seem, myself included, to be confused by your reaction to events like these. You all come out and say how disgusted you are by them, how you could never condone such actions, yet no one is willing to stand up and make the much needed and necessary changes to gun laws.

    As I said above my boyfriend is from California (moved to the UK 7 years ago) he owned a gun while he lived in the States, and he keeps telling me that Americas attitude towards guns will never change.

    I'm interested to know if that's true and if many other people feel the same?

    Personally I don't think that whether or not people want to change or not is up for debate, you NEED to change, or incidents like this will keep happening.


    Isn't your assumption here that if gun control laws were passed these things wouldn't happen? In fact the evidence is quite the opposite when it comes to overall gun violence that it in fact goes up after gun control happens. China has seen a number of violent attacks directed at kids where the attackers have used knives - what lesson should they or we take from that?


    Really, there are incidents of line wolf knife men killing dozens of children in minutes????

    Something tells me you're a shameless liar, politicizing a tragedy. If I believed in hell, I'd tell you to go there. As it were, I'll just say, Drop dead, Riddler.icon_mad.gif


    This happened on the same day of the Newton attack - but it happened hours *before* the Newton attack:
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230

    But the point being is that while there's no denying that guns enabled this evil act, it was perpetrated by someone who was obviously disturbed.


    Yeah, I read the article... NONE OF THE VICTIMS DIED!!!!


    You're proving my point that guns need to be suppressed.


    That hasn't always been the case:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011) - death or no, it's kinda terrifying.

    With 3D printing developing as fast as it is, gun control is increasingly becoming a moot point. Instead of criminalizing more acts, when gun violence has actually been dropping despite awful tragedies like this, why not figure out how to better target and treat those who could do these awful, evil things?

    Further, as it relates to gun control, the guns at Columbine were purchased illegally.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 15, 2012 2:45 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    gayroy saidYes gun crime has gone up, but that report was published 3 years ago. The British government has put legislature in place to tackle gangs with more powers given to the police, who themselves don't carry guns.

    Although gun crime has increased in recent years we still don't get crimes of the same magnitude as America does.

    And I'm not having a go at America, I'm merely trying to understand why you as a people feel it necessary to own a gun.

    The incident in Newtown has been discussed greatly in the UK both in the news and amongst the general population. There seems to a common opinion amoung people, they all seem, myself included, to be confused by your reaction to events like these. You all come out and say how disgusted you are by them, how you could never condone such actions, yet no one is willing to stand up and make the much needed and necessary changes to gun laws.

    As I said above my boyfriend is from California (moved to the UK 7 years ago) he owned a gun while he lived in the States, and he keeps telling me that Americas attitude towards guns will never change.

    I'm interested to know if that's true and if many other people feel the same?

    Personally I don't think that whether or not people want to change or not is up for debate, you NEED to change, or incidents like this will keep happening.


    Isn't your assumption here that if gun control laws were passed these things wouldn't happen? In fact the evidence is quite the opposite when it comes to overall gun violence that it in fact goes up after gun control happens. China has seen a number of violent attacks directed at kids where the attackers have used knives - what lesson should they or we take from that?


    Really, there are incidents of line wolf knife men killing dozens of children in minutes????

    Something tells me you're a shameless liar, politicizing a tragedy. If I believed in hell, I'd tell you to go there. As it were, I'll just say, Drop dead, Riddler.icon_mad.gif


    This happened on the same day of the Newton attack - but it happened hours *before* the Newton attack:
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230

    But the point being is that while there's no denying that guns enabled this evil act, it was perpetrated by someone who was obviously disturbed.


    Yeah, I read the article... NONE OF THE VICTIMS DIED!!!!


    You're proving my point that guns need to be suppressed.


    That hasn't always been the case:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011) - death or no, it's kinda terrifying.

    With 3D printing developing as fast as it is, gun control is increasingly becoming a moot point. Instead of criminalizing more acts, when gun violence has actually been dropping despite awful tragedies like this, why not figure out how to better target and treat those who could do these awful, evil things?

    Further, as it relates to gun control, the guns at Columbine were purchased illegally.


    It's terrifying, yes, but the difference between injury and death is more than just apples and oranges. These children are dead, Riddler. Don't you have any idea how serious this is?

    If it's so easy to get guns illegally, then why fight the criminalization of them?icon_idea.gif
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    Dec 15, 2012 2:50 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidIt's terrifying, yes, but the difference between injury and death is more than just apples and oranges. These children are dead, Riddler. Don't you have any idea how serious this is?

    If it's so easy to get guns illegally, then why fight the criminalization of them?icon_idea.gif


    As noted in the above wiki link - there have been a number of deaths in the series of attacks on kids in China. I'm very aware of how serious this is. You're making no sense - "If it's so easy to get guns illegally, then why fight the criminalization of them?"

    These guns used at Columbine were illegally sold - ie they would not have been sold otherwise if the sellers and buyers were already obeying the law. Criminals and those who have less than good intents don't care about following the law - do you think that they would be deterred by gun control?
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    Dec 15, 2012 2:51 PM GMT
    We can equate knives to guns when human beings learn how to dodge bullets Matrix-style. Until then there is no comparison.

    Someone can shoot you from a distance, but they need to be close to stab you. That's the difference.

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    Dec 15, 2012 2:53 PM GMT
    JaxGuy saidWe can equate knives to guns when human beings learn how to dodge bullets Matrix-style. Until then there is no comparison.

    Someone can shoot you from a distance, but they need to be close to stab you. That's the difference.



    So there should be evidence then that gun control would reduce violence. Please link.
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    Dec 15, 2012 2:55 PM GMT
    I'll remind the Brits that it was their fucked up management of the colonies that set the attitude in America (and the Constitution) that we had to stayed armed to prevent oppression from the government.
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    Dec 15, 2012 3:02 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    JaxGuy saidWe can equate knives to guns when human beings learn how to dodge bullets Matrix-style. Until then there is no comparison.

    Someone can shoot you from a distance, but they need to be close to stab you. That's the difference.



    So there should be evidence then that gun control would reduce violence. Please link.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

    http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2012/jan/27/jim-moran/rep-jim-moran-says-us-gun-homicide-rate-20-times-h/

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

    "In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally."
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 15, 2012 3:07 PM GMT
    JaxGuy said
    riddler78 said
    JaxGuy saidWe can equate knives to guns when human beings learn how to dodge bullets Matrix-style. Until then there is no comparison.

    Someone can shoot you from a distance, but they need to be close to stab you. That's the difference.



    So there should be evidence then that gun control would reduce violence. Please link.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

    http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2012/jan/27/jim-moran/rep-jim-moran-says-us-gun-homicide-rate-20-times-h/

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

    "In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally."


    No one is denying that the US has had higher gun violence as a starting point - or that it's a lot higher than other countries - but this has as much to do with the history of the US as anything. But you aren't showing that gun control *will*/*would* reduce violence. You are just showing that other countries with gun control have less gun violence - and there's a difference. There's no correlation between guns per capita and gun violence. See Switzerland as an example.

    But in every case that gun control has been implemented,what happened to gun violence in those states?

    Now as for gun violence in the US - the good news is that it's falling:
    http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2012/07/21/the-declining-culture-of-guns-and-violence-in-the-united-states/

    violence.png

    guns.png

    I am curious though... were you as outraged about Fast and Furious?
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    Dec 15, 2012 3:17 PM GMT
    JaxGuy said

    "In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally."


    Well, since just like the religious anti-gay nuts we're going to selectively quote things...{same article}.

    "The Japanese and American ways of thinking about crime, privacy, and police powers are so different -- and Japan is such a generally peaceful country -- that it's functionally impossible to fully isolate and compare the two gun control regiments. It's not much easier to balance the costs and benefits of Japan's unusual approach, which helps keep its murder rate at the second-lowest in the world, though at the cost of restrictions that Kopel calls a "police state," a worrying suggestion that it hands the government too much power over its citizens. {emphasis added}
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    Dec 15, 2012 4:20 PM GMT
    The normal emotional response is to try and remove access to guns. It takes a longer look to see this as counter-productive. There is no easy answer, just a lot of questions, most of which will be answered eventually. I think it's wise to just wait and see. Sadly, there will always be evil. I hope this man is in the hottest place in hell.
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    Dec 15, 2012 4:20 PM GMT
    There have been a few comments mentioning the constitution and the reason for it being the British government at the time, and I agree with you. If I had been living in America at the time I would certainly have wanted independence. I'm actually Welsh not British/English, Wales is a small country that helps make up the U.K and most Welsh people would like nothing more than to be independent of English rule, but that another topic.

    On the subject of the constitution, I would like to draw your attention to something I said in my opening statement;

    "I understand that it is your constitutional right to bear arm, and I understand the need for such a law at the time it was written. Of course all rights and freedoms should be defended and upheld. However if a right also allows a group of people, no matter how small, to carry out such mallicouse crimes as the three shootings that you have had this year and to allow them to deny people an even more fundamental right and freedom, the right to live and exist, then surely something needs to change?"

    What I mean by the last line is; surely in the effort of preventing events like the shooting at Newtown then a further amendment to the constitution should at least be discussed. I'm not saying that guns should be banned, while I see no need to own a gun (as I've said before its an alien concept to me), I'm beginning to understand that guns are something which are entrenched in your cultural identity, even to the point that they were written into your constitution at the birth of your nation However given that guns are so important to you, and the unfortunate truth that there are people who will carry out such atrocities and who can easily, at the moment, get their hands on firearms, would you be open to gun law reform that would allow the responsible to own a gun under stricter guidelines?

    Although I've said i understand that it is your constitutional right to own a gun, maybe am alternative approach would be the attitude of 'gun ownership should be a privilege, something earned by those responsible enough to own a gun, rather than a right'. I'm not trying to provoke further arguments, I'm just pointing out different views.
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    Dec 15, 2012 4:32 PM GMT
    There have also been a lot of comparisons between gun and knife related attacks, I would like to point out that knives are present in almost every home around the world, and while they have the ability to be dangerous and very deadly they are basically a tool for use in everyday life. While there are very few countries in the world that have gun ownership as a right, written into law.

    Someone is, I'm sure going to mention, that a gun is also a tool, while knives were first developed to end life they have now moved on to be far more versatile tools for use around the home to make life easier in today's world, a gun has one job.
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    Dec 15, 2012 4:51 PM GMT
    67018_10151178359071275_1472706550_n.jpg
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    Dec 15, 2012 5:41 PM GMT
    Caslon22000 saidI'll remind the Brits that it was their fucked up management of the colonies that set the attitude in America (and the Constitution) that we had to stayed armed to prevent oppression from the government.


    How long are you going to keep blaming the Brits? You've had 236 years in which to develop your maturity as a nation.
  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Dec 15, 2012 7:11 PM GMT
    meninlove said67018_10151178359071275_1472706550_n.jpg


    fact: more people are killed by drunk drivers than guns, and drunk driver killers get minimal sentencing in court. in most states the death penalty is never even on the table.

    if you're convicted of killing somebody with a gun you're gone for life,

    if you kill somebody with a car, you get 5 to 7 and a rehab vacation.

    because they happen so frequently now, these mass shooting sprees have already been accepted by our cultural psyche, it's part of the country's identity, we mourn the loss, thank god it wasn't our family and move on, 2 wks later it's ancient history.

    the media loves these tragedies, elevating the shooter to celebrity status, that's what feeds the ego of the disenfranchised loner. gun laws are useless, the camera/spotlight is the fuel, until you turn it off there will be no end to this.

    CNN is more responsible for these crimes than anything the NRA has ever done.

    the bright side of the news this week: federal court forced Illinois to adopt concealed carry. if the teacher had had a gun this fucker would have been dead before he got off his first round.

    you can't fight crazy with a gun law, but you can shoot crazy in the head. this is where we are people, get strapped, or get dead.
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    Dec 15, 2012 7:15 PM GMT
    gayroy saidThere have been a few comments mentioning the constitution and the reason for it being the British government at the time, and I agree with you. If I had been living in America at the time I would certainly have wanted independence. I'm actually Welsh not British/English, Wales is a small country that helps make up the U.K and most Welsh people would like nothing more than to be independent of English rule, but that another topic.

    On the subject of the constitution, I would like to draw your attention to something I said in my opening statement;

    "I understand that it is your constitutional right to bear arm, and I understand the need for such a law at the time it was written. Of course all rights and freedoms should be defended and upheld. However if a right also allows a group of people, no matter how small, to carry out such mallicouse crimes as the three shootings that you have had this year and to allow them to deny people an even more fundamental right and freedom, the right to live and exist, then surely something needs to change?"

    What I mean by the last line is; surely in the effort of preventing events like the shooting at Newtown then a further amendment to the constitution should at least be discussed. I'm not saying that guns should be banned, while I see no need to own a gun (as I've said before its an alien concept to me), I'm beginning to understand that guns are something which are entrenched in your cultural identity, even to the point that they were written into your constitution at the birth of your nation However given that guns are so important to you, and the unfortunate truth that there are people who will carry out such atrocities and who can easily, at the moment, get their hands on firearms, would you be open to gun law reform that would allow the responsible to own a gun under stricter guidelines?

    Although I've said i understand that it is your constitutional right to own a gun, maybe am alternative approach would be the attitude of 'gun ownership should be a privilege, something earned by those responsible enough to own a gun, rather than a right'. I'm not trying to provoke further arguments, I'm just pointing out different views.


    You haven't responded with any facts that support your view that gun control would in fact have prevented this violence. It's also a common error by many who believe that even automatic weapons are easy to get in the US:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act#Categories_of_firearms_regulated