"No Bailout"... LEHMAN BROS, MERRILL LYNCH COLLAPSE.. Whats next????

  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Sep 15, 2008 12:07 PM GMT
    The news out today, Lehman collapsed and Merrill sold to Bank of America.
    I understand the firm AIG is struggling, mostly due to bad investments
    (mostly with mortgages)... no Bear Stearns bailout!

    Apparently those affected will be employees, not shareholders.
    Greed takes its toll...

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    Sep 15, 2008 12:33 PM GMT
    I am going to check Bloomberg online. This is not good, not good at all. I don't think many Americans have grasped how serious this problem is. Much worse than the dot-com bubble bursting. Banks and investment banks are critical to an economy.

    UPDATE

    I just checked Bloomberg. The futures on the Dow Jones Industrials are down 339 points or 3.4%, the Brazil stock market futures are down over 6%. It could be a very, very bumpy day on the markets.
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    Sep 15, 2008 12:50 PM GMT
    "The U.S. financial system this weekend faced its gravest crisis in modern times, as regulators resorted to triage on Wall Street to contain the spreading damage from a meltdown in the housing and mortgage market. "

    "In a weekend of intensive and almost nonstop meetings behind the massive stone facade of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. and New York Fed President Timothy F. Geithner oversaw a series of meetings that essentially forced the chief executives of every major firm to grapple with a crisis of their own making.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/15/AR2008091500074.html?hpid=topnews"

    As I was saying on a thread I started earlier....but doesnt matter this thread will do just as well....

    Sorry, but I dont have much sympathy for these banks, businesses, and the wealthy that tell us how they should run the economy and let the wealth trickle down on to the rest of us. Give them tax breaks so they can grow and flourish and expand the economy. ...Oops....now bail us out cuz with a Republican gov't we've fucked up royally. ....Sure glad all you little tax payers can give us mo' money cuz we fucked away the money we got before.

    ...And then pay off the national debt we have created cuz we still wont pay taxes.


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    Sep 15, 2008 2:21 PM GMT
    This reminds me. Osama's objective in strikng the US was not to defeat us militarily....he isnt that stupid....but to bankrupt us. That's why he keeps hitting financial districts....to disrupt our economies.

    Sending billions upon billions of our dollars to Iraq has put a great strain on our economy. Bush played right into OBL's hands when he invaded Iraq.
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    Sep 15, 2008 2:35 PM GMT
    Caslon7000 saidThis reminds me. Osama's objective in strikng the US was not to defend us militarily....he isnt that stupid....but to bankrupt us. That's why he keeps hitting financial districts....to disrupt our economies.

    Sending billions upon billions of our dollars to Iraq has put a great strain on our economy. Bush played right into OBL's hands when he invaded Iraq.


    I agree, he does not have to lift another finger to hurt the US. That is what my biggest fear after 9/11 was, that the current administration would go in guns ablazing and do something foolish. Iraq maybe settling down now, but Saddam Hussein was not a threat to the US so thousands died and billions (maybe a trillion) was spent to get rid of a dictator that might have been overthrown anyways.

    The neo-cons had this grand vision of spreading democracy to the Middle East. Very ambitious is a kind way to describe that policy. Foolhardy will more likely be history's judgement. Ironically all this stemmed from a President who majored in History. I guess European and Middle Eastern history was not the focus of his studies.
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    Sep 15, 2008 2:41 PM GMT
    oops....i meant...defeat us militarily.....damn, I wonder why the brain just goes off and types a different word.
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    Sep 15, 2008 2:55 PM GMT
    I heard on NPR this morning that Ford, GM and Chrysler are asking for $25-50 billion dollars from the government to help save them from the SUV profits that have dried up. More ballouts!

    But yet... the fundamentals of our economy are very strong, very strong.

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    Sep 15, 2008 2:59 PM GMT
    ...but this isnt Big Government being asked to come to the rescue! ...nay, nay!

    Because it is for Business....it's only Big Government if it is helping people.

    And of course, they are gonna need tax relief now!
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:04 PM GMT
    And that was supposed to be "bail", not "ball." Forgive me, I've been without power for two days.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:12 PM GMT
    Bigger worry according to pundits is AIG (American Insurance Group) which could also be in trouble. Also Washington Mutual (WaMu for short) is in deep trouble. It is a large savings and loan company.

    Who ever invented these sub-prime mortgage instruments needs to have their heads examined. Never trust a banker that acts like a dot-com entreprenuer. Bankers should be boring, conservative, cautious, prudent, etc..
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19136

    Sep 15, 2008 3:20 PM GMT
    jaydub saidI heard on NPR this morning that Ford, GM and Chrysler are asking for $25-50 billion dollars from the government to help save them from the SUV profits that have dried up. More ballouts!

    But yet... the fundamentals of our economy are very strong, very strong.





    Actually, the fundamentals of our economy ARE very strong. We are still not "technically" in a recession which, if you ask me, is nothing short of a miracle. So it is not at all untrue when McCain makes such a statement. They are strong. That is not to say that certain pillars are not struggling...obviously, they are. It's also very important for the President, and yes, even those who may be President, to focus on the positive in terms of speeches because, with good reason, Americans are nervous. It makes no sense for our leaders to instill a panic, but rather just layout the facts and encourage Americans that the necessary steps are being taken to correct the problem.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:22 PM GMT
    Yep, our economy is so good right now that all the way over here in Jersey I can hear the fireworks on Wall St.


    Nope, not fireworks, sorry. That's the bodies hitting the sidewalk on Exhange Place. They're very loud.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:25 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidActually, the fundamentals of our economy ARE very strong. We are still not "technically" in a recession which, if you ask me, is nothing short of a miracle. So it is not at all untrue when McCain makes such a statement. They are strong. That is not to say that certain pillars are not struggling...obviously, they are. It's also very important for the President, and yes, even those who may be President, to focus on the positive in terms of speeches because, with good reason, Americans are nervous. It makes no sense for our leaders to instill a panic, but rather just layout the facts and encourage Americans that the necessary steps are being taken to correct the problem.

    yeah...but we dont have to be fools about how Business got itself into this mess and the Republican government with its total reliance on free markets....until their businesses are going under....dogged-determinedly stood by and let it happen.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:27 PM GMT
    Maybe CuriousJockAZ is right about the pres' approach to addressing this crisis. Bush needs to take his head out of his ass long enough to stick it in the sand.
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    Sep 15, 2008 3:29 PM GMT
    I am glad Merrill-Lynch finally got its arrogant ass handed to it on a plate. .... icon_biggrin.gif
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Sep 15, 2008 3:31 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said




    Actually, the fundamentals of our economy ARE very strong. We are still not "technically" in a recession which, if you ask me, is nothing short of a miracle. So it is not at all untrue when McCain makes such a statement. They are strong.

    .



    The "technical" description of a recession is 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth in the GNP.... sometimes we don't even know that we are in a recession until its over.

    You tell someone who loses their house in Arizona (Todd) that there is no recession or someone out of work. We don't want to instill panic, but I don't want some rosey picture painted either. I want facts. Forget the technicals here... We are in a period of economic uncertainty and a great deal of volatility and stress in our economic infrastructure.
    "They are strong" to me is a stretch (at best).
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    Sep 15, 2008 4:09 PM GMT
    I bet theres a giant bull on Wall street with it's tail between its legs..icon_evil.gif

    Coroporate America is going to get a rude wake up call. I wonder how many mergers and full out flops of the fourtune 1000 we'll see in these tougher years comingicon_question.gif
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    Sep 15, 2008 4:12 PM GMT
    The US economy is better than what was expected, but as the slowdown spreads to Europe, Latin America and Asia demand for American products will slow which will make things worse. Also if any American companies go into bankruptcy in the near future they will find it very difficult to get "debtor-in-possession" financing and may liquidate. The credit markets are extremely tight because banks and investment banks balance sheets are a mess. I am thinking especially of one of the big airlines with the high fuel prices (going down now, but will undoubtedly go up in the winter).
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Sep 15, 2008 5:04 PM GMT
    Thank you Phil Gramm...

    Mr ENRON and the deregulaory guru of the nineties

    ...and HEY!!!

    Well bust my Britches .... ain't he the chief economic advisor for the Grampy McSame campaign?

    Golly! Ain't that a hoot now...

    And we got Sara Palin makin speeches now about how there ain't ENOUGH oversight

    Somebody's lyin here somewhere
    Oh BTW..... Wasilla Alaska was in debt for the first time after she left office
    Sounds like a chip right off the old republican shoulder if ya ask me
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    Sep 15, 2008 5:14 PM GMT
    End corporate welfare! Stop rewarding companies for their mistakes, inefficiencies, market myopia, and sheer sketchy greed. Close gaping corporate tax loopholes.

    But no...the GOP thinks it would be better to fund these f*ckups and choke education and healthcare instead.

  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19136

    Sep 15, 2008 5:36 PM GMT
    HndsmKansan said

    You tell someone who loses their house in Arizona (Todd) that there is no recession or someone out of work. We don't want to instill panic, but I don't want some rosey picture painted either. I want facts. Forget the technicals here... We are in a period of economic uncertainty and a great deal of volatility and stress in our economic infrastructure.
    "They are strong" to me is a stretch (at best).



    If you know anything about the mortgage and/or real estate business, then you know that most people who own a home and have a mortgage pay that mortgage on time. It's a small percentage of homeowners holding mortgages (albeit a growing percentage) who are actually late or having their homes foreclosed on. 9 times of 10, these foreclosures are the result of a homeowner getting in over their head into a home they simply could not afford. Now, admittedly, part of the blame rests with greedy banks and mortgage companies who at one time would give a loan to anyone with a pulse, regardless of their credit history, and doing so allowing the borrower to "State" their income, not actually prove their income. Of course, this opened the door to all kinds of exaggeration of one's own income and assets, which in turn got people into homes and loans well beyond their means. Ultimately, the blame really rests on the borrowers themselves. If they got into a home loan that they couldn't afford, even if it was years down the line once that loan adjusted, then whose fault is that? The Banks? I think not. If someone buys or leases a new car and 2 years into it the car gets repo'd because the payments stopped getting made on time or at all, do we blame the car dealership?

    Fact of the matter is, this economy overall is still thriving. Granted, at a slower pace, even a snail's pace, but it's not like it's all "doom & gloom" either. People are still buying houses. I went to a high-end restaurant to eat Saturday night, and there was still a waiting list to get seated. We had the biggest movie box-office take in history this summer. I look around everywhere and see people with iPods and iPhones...shopping malls are going up, airplanes are full. I'm not saying that things haven't gotten challenging, or that people are not hurting -- of course they are -- but there are positive things out there to see. It simply is not ALL doom & gloom.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Sep 15, 2008 5:47 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ in his thriving economy said:



    If you know anything about the mortgage and/or real estate business, then you know that most people who own a home and have a mortgage pay that mortgage on time. It's a small percentage of homeowners holding mortgages (albeit a growing percentage) who are actually late or having their homes foreclosed on. 9 times of 10, these foreclosures are the result of a homeowner getting in over their head, etc....

    Fact of the matter is, this economy overall is still thriving. Granted, at a slower pace, even a snail's pace, but it's not like it's all "doom & gloom" either. People are still buying houses. I went to a high-end restaurant to eat Saturday night, and there was still a waiting list to get seated. We had the biggest movie box-office take in history this summer. I look around everywhere and see people with iPods and iPhones...shopping malls are going up, airplanes are full. I'm not saying that things haven't gotten challenging, or that people are not hurting -- of course they are -- but there are positive things out there to see. It simply is not ALL doom & gloom.


    Well I'm a financial planner, so I know a little about the markets and whats happening. We're talking about where we are at with the economy in this thread, not how we got here (albeit some of what you say is true in the above).

    People are still buying houses and its much better in Kansas than in Arizona.. but as a real estate agent, you know the loan situation has "markedly changed" over the last several months with the shock of the economic infrastructure. I'm very aware in the change in the financial markets and what my clients accounts have done. We know the job situation, jobless benefits, addition (and in cases now.. subtraction of new jobs from the economy) our debt ridden carcass of an economy... I would NEVER refer to this economy as "thriving" (thats ridiculous). Just because we haven't had a quarter of negative GNP doesn't mean we are in for all practical purposes..... a recession. We have a mixed bag of results and there are still some positive signs, but again, not "thriving"....
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    Sep 15, 2008 5:52 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidFact of the matter is, this economy overall is still thriving. Granted, at a slower pace, even a snail's pace, but it's not like it's all "doom & gloom" either.

    The point is the Republicans and Business are always telling everybody not to regulate....not to oversee ....not to interfer....they know what they are doing....They will generate wealth and ecomomic prosperity for all and it wil rain down on the masses. ...It is better to leave the market to itself. ...Dont interfer ....But everytime we turn around Business is fucking up and the Republicans no longer believe in small government ...and support Business bailout. .....wealth doesnt trickle down....money flows up from the taxpayers to the the Business idiots
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19136

    Sep 15, 2008 6:02 PM GMT
    HndsmKansan said We know the job situation, jobless benefits, addition (and in cases now.. subtraction of new jobs from the economy) our debt ridden carcass of an economy... I would NEVER refer to this economy as "thriving" (thats ridiculous). Just because we haven't had a quarter of negative GNP doesn't mean we are in for all practical purposes..... a recession. We have a mixed bag of results and there are still some positive signs, but again, not "thriving"....



    No offense, I am sure you are very good at what you do, but as long as the economic indicators, and the experts, are saying we are NOT in a recession, I think I'll go with that.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Sep 15, 2008 7:07 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    ..



    No offense, I am sure you are very good at what you do, but as long as the economic indicators, and the experts, are saying we are NOT in a recession, I think I'll go with that.


    I'm going with the experts... your going with last quarters results which are usually behind the times.....um, yeah.