Heteronormativity and Gay assimilation

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    Dec 17, 2012 6:15 AM GMT
    I had two very interesting conversations recently. In one the person I was talking to condemmed how so many gays were trying to get married in an attempt to attain equality but so that they might have a chance to prove to straight people that they are an asset to society.

    And then I had another conversation where the other person I was talking to promoted settling down because he thought it promoted a stability in the gay community we currently lack. He made this statement below that I like:

    " It's very important, but its the backlash of our repression pre-aids. We're all like traumatized teenagers trying to make up for lost time, in this generation and for the lost time of our um..."ancestors'"

    The statement above was in reference to the promiscuous culture of the gay community.

    Which do you agree with?
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    Dec 17, 2012 7:01 PM GMT
    I think it's an interesting topic.
    In terms of civil rights/ legal rights, I think all people should have the same opportunities.

    But at the same time I'm not really that interested in the traditional heteronormative concept of marriage. That's just my choice....
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    Dec 17, 2012 7:17 PM GMT
    As if there are only 2 positions. I don't agree with either of your correspondents and assuming you're paraphrasing them correctly those are simplistic, intractably intolerant assertions.

    The ability of 2 Americans to make a legal contract under law that any other 2 Americans can also make is fundamental, inalienable, and always should've been.
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    Dec 17, 2012 7:20 PM GMT
    nicenmanly saidAs if there are only 2 positions. I don't agree with either of your correspondents and assuming you're paraphrasing them correctly those are simplistic, intractably intolerant assertions.

    The ability of 2 Americans to make a legal contract under law that any other 2 Americans can also make is fundamental, inalienable, and always should've been.


    Neither person was suggesting it be denied but each offered differing viewpoints on how gays try to blend into mainstream society.
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    Dec 17, 2012 7:28 PM GMT
    judoguy said...I'm not really that interested in the traditional heteronormative concept of marriage. That's just my choice....


    AGREED
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    Dec 17, 2012 7:29 PM GMT
    judoguy saidI think it's an interesting topic.
    In terms of civil rights/ legal rights, I think all people should have the same opportunities.

    But at the same time I'm not really that interested in the traditional heteronormative concept of marriage. That's just my choice....


    Why do you have no interest in the concept?
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    Dec 18, 2012 1:05 AM GMT
    nicenmanly said
    The ability of 2 Americans to make a legal contract under law that any other 2 Americans can also make is fundamental, inalienable, and always should've been.


    This is what it comes down to... well said.
  • Pyre85

    Posts: 213

    Dec 18, 2012 1:24 AM GMT
    I think it's vital that we have the option to get married.
    I fully believe that the rampant promiscuity among gay men is, at it's core, more than that men are horny by nature. It's because we never had the option to have legitimate, open relationships.
    In the early days of the gay rights movement, so many people were closeted, hiding their homosexuality at all costs. This pushed gay relationships into illicit, brief encounters: one night stands, hooking up at local cruise spots etc.
    Now we can have relationships, but the old behaviors have become part of our lifestyle, passed like a sickness from the older generation to the new. (Although young males, afraid to come out to their families may further this with no influence from an older gay male)
    In short. If society accepted us FULLY, if there comes a time when there isn't any fear of coming out, then we will see a drop in the spread of aids and in the promiscuity of our culture.
    Relationships will have an ultimate goal, something to work for, something to dream of and plan. Little boys will be able to talk to their mothers about their dream weddings the same way little girls will. It'll be pretty sweet.
    Right now we learn early on that we won't be getting married. We won't be raising a family. Noone wants us. We can't even donate blood to save someones life, because no one wants to be indebted to a fag.
    I know times are changing and were finally on the verge of claiming what should have been ours from the start.I just hope it lasts.
    My greatest fear is seeing history repeat itself in the mold of the Roman Empire, where being gay wasn't an issue, until the Christians convinced everyone we were evil, and it became punishable by death. All it takes is one charismatic zealot to tear everything from our hands again.
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    Dec 18, 2012 1:49 AM GMT
    Pyre85 saidI think it's vital that we have the option to get married.
    I fully believe that the rampant promiscuity among gay men is, at it's core, more than that men are horny by nature. It's because we never had the option to have legitimate, open relationships.
    In the early days of the gay rights movement, so many people were closeted, hiding their homosexuality at all costs. This pushed gay relationships into illicit, brief encounters: one night stands, hooking up at local cruise spots etc.
    Now we can have relationships, but the old behaviors have become part of our lifestyle, passed like a sickness from the older generation to the new. (Although young males, afraid to come out to their families may further this with no influence from an older gay male)
    In short. If society accepted us FULLY, if there comes a time when there isn't any fear of coming out, then we will see a drop in the spread of aids and in the promiscuity of our culture.
    Relationships will have an ultimate goal, something to work for, something to dream of and plan. Little boys will be able to talk to their mothers about their dream weddings the same way little girls will. It'll be pretty sweet.
    Right now we learn early on that we won't be getting married. We won't be raising a family. Noone wants us. We can't even donate blood to save someones life, because no one wants to be indebted to a fag.
    I know times are changing and were finally on the verge of claiming what should have been ours from the start.I just hope it lasts.
    My greatest fear is seeing history repeat itself in the mold of the Roman Empire, where being gay wasn't an issue, until the Christians convinced everyone we were evil, and it became punishable by death. All it takes is one charismatic zealot to tear everything from our hands again.


    I agree with almost everything you said and the tides are turning. I mean many of the teens I know don't even have a problem with gays or lesbians. I see young lesbians around here all the time and no one says a word. Back in the day her ass would of been beat. And by back in the day I mean 2005. Kids are still closeted but some of them are coming out younger. Its great progress. I too hope our progress wont be backtracked.
  • Hunter9

    Posts: 1039

    Dec 18, 2012 2:05 AM GMT
    MashogaNubianPrince saidI had two very interesting conversations recently. In one the person I was talking to condemmed how so many gays were trying to get married in an attempt to attain equality but so that they might have a chance to prove to straight people that they are an asset to society.

    And then I had another conversation where the other person I was talking to promoted settling down because he thought it promoted a stability in the gay community we currently lack. He made this statement below that I like:

    " It's very important, but its the backlash of our repression pre-aids. We're all like traumatized teenagers trying to make up for lost time, in this generation and for the lost time of our um..."ancestors'"

    Which do you agree with?


    People get married in order to solidify their relationship and have it recognized by the state (which provides for innumerable benefits).

    To think that someone would get married to "prove to straight people that they are an asset to society" or because gay people who came before us were not allowed to is astoundingly simplistic and not grounded in truth for anything more than perhaps a terribly small minority.
  • Jojo_Blu

    Posts: 26

    Dec 18, 2012 3:08 AM GMT
    In terms of assimilation, and falling into heteronormativity, marriage isn't really the defining issue... I think reproducing oppressive ideas about gender, discrimination against Trans* folks, and fixating on what a 'real man' is, is what we need to start thinking about.

    Terms like 'straight acting' are used all the time by guys who consider themselves to be more masculine, or those looking for more masculine guys. As if straight acting = masculine, and that gay acting = not masculine. This helps uphold homophobia, and heteronormativity. Not to mention helps perpetuate the idea that Straight acting (and/or masculine) is better. I feel like that is in itself really a heteronormative view of male attractiveness, as well.

    But that's just one key area I see as more assimilationist than gay marriage. And tends to run a lot more rampant.

    I personally believe marriage is weird, and shouldn't be necessary to access the rights that it currently gives couples/families. Yet as long is it exists all people should have access.

    Sorry for ranting. I tried really hard to keep it short.
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    Dec 18, 2012 3:21 AM GMT
    Jojo_Blu saidIn terms of assimilation, and falling into heteronormativity, marriage isn't really the defining issue... I think reproducing oppressive ideas about gender, discrimination against Trans* folks, and fixating on what a 'real man' is, is what we need to start thinking about.

    Terms like 'straight acting' are used all the time by guys who consider themselves to be more masculine, or those looking for more masculine guys. As if straight acting = masculine, and that gay acting = not masculine. This helps uphold homophobia, and heteronormativity. Not to mention helps perpetuate the idea that Straight acting (and/or masculine) is better. I feel like that is in itself really a heteronormative view of male attractiveness, as well.

    But that's just one key area I see as more assimilationist than gay marriage. And tends to run a lot more rampant.

    I personally believe marriage is weird, and shouldn't be necessary to access the rights that it currently gives couples/families. Yet as long is it exists all people should have access.

    Sorry for ranting. I tried really hard to keep it short.


    I think your comments about straight acting makes a lot of sense. A lot of gay men tend to put on the mask of being straight acting because they still have issues with their sexuality and they assume that once you come out the closet you get handed a purse, skinny jeans and get signed up for speech lessons on how to talk gay.

    Another thing that I think is a sign of heteronormative assimilation is the defining of people as top or bottom. Hell I am guilty of this too. We make someones sexual position a part of their identity and really its just that a sex position.