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CRUCIAL ADDENDUM
When in doubt, check the footnotes.
The footnotes address that "the natural genealogical line is broken...through Joseph's adoption the child belongs to the family of David."

Once again I ask a question late at night, only to find the answer right in front of me A potential bad habit?

I'm letting the thread stay because I'm reluctant to delete info posted online, barring any particular necessity.

*** Original post ***
So, I've started reading the New Testament in order to have at least read and possibly understood some of the scripture that is supposedly the basis for our world's Christian movements (barring some exceptions, such as the Church of Latter-Day Saints and its Book of Mormon).

In just starting the Gospel according to Matthew, I've run into a snag (at least a snag in terms of a literal reading of the Bible). In the beginning of the GatM, the author delineates the bloodline from Abraham (through David) to Joseph, "the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah."

Considering the doctrine that Mary conceived Jesus while a virgin, why does it matter what bloodline Joseph had? Is Jesus a "son of David" by virtue of adoption, or is this an error that should not compute in a literal reading (thereby suggesting that it should not be read literally)?

I can't imagine that this has somehow been overlooked in all these years, so I'm curious as to what the established answer is (if there is one). Any clues?

It may well be that GatM was aimed at the Romans or Roman wannabes. The Romans had a very sophisicated system for adoption especially in the Equestrian and Senatorial classes to ensure that family weath, position and history continued even when the head of the family had no direct male heirs. The concept that Jesus became "of the family of David" with his adoption by Joseph was a very clear, understandable and socially acceptable concept to the Romans of that time. Brutus is one of the prime examples of adoption. He was born Marcus Junius Brutus, but was adopted by his uncle and became Caepio Brutus and became heir to a substanially larger fortune.

Nick, my advice would be to read the gospels as fiction and I think you'll get a lot more out of it. I'm not saying they are fiction or that they aren't. However, what they certainly aren't is history in any modern sense. Reading these texts with a 21st century mind is very difficult and almost inevitably leads to distortions and conclusions unintended by their original authors.

Matthew and Luke both have genealogies of Jesus which are incompatable with each other. They were trying to make points which were important to their readers at the time but which are largely meaningless to us. No one could have known the information these geneologies purport to convey. People at the time also knew such lineages could be very "creative" in establishing desired family connections. For both gospels, the genealogies connect Jesus with the larger story of Israel as God's chosen people and their role as the means for God's redemption of the world. The details of the specific people was interesting but not that significant. They told a story.

The line between fact and fiction is almost impossible to determine in the gospels and most ancient texts. Historical accuracy was simply not a concern in the ancient world. Their stories, tales, sagas, legends, and myths had different agenda than we have today. Their concern was for eternal truths, not for the particulars of names, places, and dates. This is the biggest fallacy and confusion of biblical literalism.

FWIW, I am a Lutheran minister, seminary grad, by no means an expert on these things but pretty well read, and I have thought about this stuff A LOT. The Bible is probably the most misused and misunderstood book around. This is sad because it actually does have great value. But it isn't what many people want it to be: an answer book for modern day concerns. It is an ancient book dealing with questions and problems of the ancient world. To the extent that our worlds overlap we can listen to what it has to say and perhaps be guided by its wisdom. Otherwise, it gives us insight into another world and another time which is of historical interest but not much else. In enjoy it, and love it, but also am very aware of its limits.

dkings56 saidNick, my advice would be to read the gospels as fiction and I think you'll get a lot more out of it. I'm not saying they are fiction or that they aren't. ....
The Bible is probably the most misused and misunderstood book around. This is sad because it actually does have great value. .

So, dkings56, what is the value?

Well, I guess "great" is in the eye of the beholder. I would argue that the Bible is great literature, and great religious literature in particular. The irony of its "deification" by fundamentalism is that it is actually one of the most profound criticisms of religion (e.g. "I hate, I despise your festivals...but let justice roll down like waters..."). It is very aware of the temptations and dangers of religious extremism and hypocrisy and repeatedly exposes and condemns them.

One thing most readers miss is that the Bible does not have one voice (God's or anyone else's) but rather is a conversation. When people say you can make the Bible say anything this is what they are encountering but without understanding it. The Bible is only really valuable when it draws us into its conversation and we start to wrestle with its questions. Instead, we want to be able to flip it open and find the answers to our social and personal problems, thus avoiding having to think for ourselves--and denying the very humanity the Bible says is our greatest gift.

How much value the Bible has today is, I think, a real question. It is an ancient book, written in languages no one speaks, coming to us from a world dramatically different than our own. Perhaps the biggest problem, however, is the preconceptions most people bring to it. It's nearly impossible for people to read it with fresh eyes since they've "heard so much about it".

That said, I still believe it is one the earliest and most profound examples of honest wrestling with the conundrums of human existance. Further, it is one of the earliest and most profound testimonies to the conviction that in some fundamental way the entire human family is in reality equal and to act otherwise undermines our collective existance and is the very meaning of injustice.

It's nearly impossible for people to read it with fresh eyes since they've "heard so much about it".

Just finished reading "The Third Jesus - the Christ we cannot ignore" by Deepak Chopra a little while ago. I think he definitely looks at Jesus with new eyes. He explains the "mystical" Jesus, as opposed to the historical or institutional Jesus, and believes that we have to refocus on Christianity being a religion of personal insight and spiritual growth instead of being exclusionary. I found the book incredibly insightful, although I have to admit that I will have to read it again as there is too much to absorb in one reading.

dkings56 saidWell, I guess "great" is in the eye of the beholder. I would argue that the Bible is great literature, and great religious literature in particular. The irony of its "deification" by fundamentalism is that it is actually one of the most profound criticisms of religion (e.g. "I hate, I despise your festivals...but let justice roll down like waters..."). It is very aware of the temptations and dangers of religious extremism and hypocrisy and repeatedly exposes and condemns them.

One thing most readers miss is that the Bible does not have one voice (God's or anyone else's) but rather is a conversation. When people say you can make the Bible say anything this is what they are encountering but without understanding it. The Bible is only really valuable when it draws us into its conversation and we start to wrestle with its questions. Instead, we want to be able to flip it open and find the answers to our social and personal problems, thus avoiding having to think for ourselves--and denying the very humanity the Bible says is our greatest gift.

How much value the Bible has today is, I think, a real question. It is an ancient book, written in languages no one speaks, coming to us from a world dramatically different than our own. Perhaps the biggest problem, however, is the preconceptions most people bring to it. It's nearly impossible for people to read it with fresh eyes since they've "heard so much about it".

That said, I still believe it is one the earliest and most profound examples of honest wrestling with the conundrums of human existance. Further, it is one of the earliest and most profound testimonies to the conviction that in some fundamental way the entire human family is in reality equal and to act otherwise undermines our collective existance and is the very meaning of injustice.

OMG. A Christian who isn't an apologist! I like you! LOL. And I usually get rabid when it comes to religion.

Sedative saidOMG. A Christian who isn't an apologist! I like you! LOL. And I usually get rabid when it comes to religion.

I just finished reading Who Killed Jesus?. It is written by a priest who argues that four gospels were chosen at the council of Nicea specifically because they were anti-Semitic, reflecting the political needs of the time. He draws a line from the gospels to the holocaust and it is compelling to say the least.

It is a quick, well written history.

People put so much faith in the validity of the bible. I'm a man of science and need more proof. People are so gullible to believe that a bunch of scriptures that have been either manipulated to be included or excluded to what we know as the bible is the absolute truth.

If we had a person or a bunch of individuals who came up with these same fictional scriptures any person in their right mind would label them as insane. But because these scriptures are thousands of years old people are so readily willing to believe that they are valid.

Know the life of Jesus? How many of you can write a 100 page essay on your great great grandparents from the moment they were born, what they did throughout their life, how other people felt about them and how they died with exacting detail the way the New Testament described the life of Jesus? None of you can and yet these people lived (your great great grandparents) just a few short generations ago. But we're to believe that from the moment of "Immaculate Conception" to the time of Jesus' death that there were people accurately recording all this information that's well over two thousand years old. From a pragmatic point of view this is all hogwash.

I do believe that Jesus was a special individual but we'll never know the ins and outs of his life as the New Testament claims. It surely makes for good fictional reading. But that's about it.

muchmorethanmuscle saidPeople put so much faith in the validity of the bible. I'm a man of science and need more proof.

One of my private "hobbies" is First Century Middle Eastern history. Unfortunately, my early education only included classical Latin & Greek, so that original source material in contemporaneous local languages like Aramaic are outside my realm.

That the local story of a "Jeshua" was elevated to a major world religion is one of those quirks of history that can never be predicted or explained. That it is irrational is merely proof that it arose at a time when scientific proofs and examinations were not yet enforced.

It's persistence into modern times reflects the limitations of human intellectual evolution, that we do not completely erase primitive thought processes with advanced ones, but rather build upon them. The structure of our brains is multi-layered, at the center residing the most primitive, at the outside the most advanced.

But all interact with each other, so that our thought processes are never all advanced, never all primitive. We are neither Mr. Spock nor a reptile, but both those brains compete within us.

Our more primitive side continues to allow for superstitious and irrational beliefs, while our advanced side sends scientific probes into deep space and lets us chat on computers. More primitive thought can be comforting & reassuring, while advanced thought exploratory and daring. I tend to view religious & political thought in those terms, as well.

I have spent a total of 23 weeks in Israel, and I can testify that being there has really brought the Bible to life. For example, I have stayed in Tiberias which is on the west coast of the Sea of Galilee. Jesus spent a large proportion of His ministerial years at the vicinity, and all four Gospels describes the fishing industry there. Today the lake is exactly the same with fishing boats - the only difference is that each boat is now fitted with outboard motors.
The wild Judaean desert certainly brings to life the route from Jericho to Jerusalem where Jesus set His parable of the Good Samaritan. Of course, driving a motor vehicle or sitting in the bus robbs the element of the real experience.
And so is the case of Jerusalem. Here this wonderful city is highly commercialised, and a church is built over every spiritual site where an event of some sort took place. But the Old City still has the authenticity of Biblical times, with excavations confirming the narative of Biblical truthfulness. The Five Arches of John's Gospel is one example, but the biggest witness of the whole truthfulness of the Bible is the Temple Mount area, situated east of the Old City. It is now the site of the Dome of the Rock mosque, but if you know where to look, you can still see huge stones thrown from the West wall and resting as they were when thrown by the Romans under General Titus in AD 70. This fulfilled the prophecy made by Jesus Christ Himself, when he said that "No stone shall be left one upon the other..." as documented in Matthew's Gospel.
Therefore I see nothing fictional about the Nativity. Joseph was a direct descendant of David via Solomon, while Mary was also a descendant of David via Natham. And both Matthew and Luke has access to Jewish records, which concerning David's line, were very strict in keeping.

You can say this about any part of the world that lacks modern development. The Galapagos Islands, most parts of Africa, the arctic and antarctic regions of the world. Many of these places are the same as they were thousands of years ago.

And as far as architecture goes okay perhaps there are buildings that are over 2,000 years old in Israel. I didn't say that Jesus didn't exist. But just because you're in an area that seems to remain timeless along with a few buildings doesn't mean that the detailed events of a person's life during this time are accurate. I do believe that Jesus did exist. But there is a period during his adolescence to the time that he reached his 30's that bears no documentation. Isn't that the least bit curious to any of you?

And so what that researches have found archeological findings that coincide with the bible. I'm sure in another 1900 years from now there will be researchers finding Nazi paraphernalia throughout areas of Europe when all of us are long gone. But that doesn't make it historically true nor does it prove anything. It simply means there was a time when people touted these beliefs with their own documentation and production of objects associated with what they chose to believe.

bravo muchmore!

In addition. Time has a curious way of bending facts and distorting and exaggerating what really happened.

A simple helping hand Jesus gave to the sick and the poor (as in social welfare work ) may become Jesus making the blind see two thousand years into the future. A simple mad dash across marshy lowlands called the Reed Sea may become the parting of the waves of the Red Sea in the future. A few hundred men waging a small tribal skirmish will become the epic battles of tens of thousands in later retellings. A rise of the sea level that swallows lowlying areas becomes a global flood that covers all the land masses. An eclipse becomes God's punishment. A tall man becomes a giant. And so on and so forth...

In the beginning was the word... and the word is oh so fickle. Caveat lector.

Thanks, Sedative.

And kudos back at you.